Pros and Cons of Sebastian Vettel

Michael Lee4 said:Even those praising him in the other thread think they're being objective. 🤣

As for Fidel Castro, I’ll just give my honest take. I don't like him. Honestly, even just looking at him, he strikes me as a total mess—I can't quite put my finger on it, but he's just not my kind of guy. That's beside the point, though. Regarding his driving, the talent is clearly there, but the sheer stupidity he displays is baffling. Take last season in the USA, for example, when he collided with Robert Kubica and then just sat there on the track leaving debris everywhere. Then this past Sunday, his engineer is practically begging him ten times over to watch his brakes and just finish the race, but no. He keeps pushing like his life depends on it. We've seen plenty of fast drivers who leave their brains back in the hotel room...

A classic example would be Ayrton Senna, especially during his early years before he matured and started driving more intelligently.😉 The Difference between him and Ayrton Senna in his younger days is that Senna was about 100 times more aggressive. Sebastian Vettel is good—actually, he's excellent—but whether he's truly world-class remains to be seen. You can't even call Lewis Hamilton world-class yet; he still needs to prove himself, and that hasn't come naturally to him. In that sense, he's similar to Juan Pablo Montoya, with the Difference being that he drives a top-tier car. Kimi Raikkonen is nearly world-class—he's great—but he lacks that certain "something" required to become an all-time legend. Vettel has potential. We'll see what happens...

Sebastian Vettel is going to prove his true worth in a few years, but by then he’ll likely be sitting in a Ferrari rather than struggling with this fragile Neweyev machine...

If he proves himself to be a world-class driver, then he absolutely belongs at Ferrari...

instead of Fernando Alonso 🤣

stormyviper11 said:How is this any different from just some kid under 25? No offense intended, really... Sebastian Vettel is just at that age where it’s totally normal to think you're the smartest, fastest guy in the room and that everyone else is just holding you back. It's basically natural selection—the same kind of ego that leads reckless kids to crash out on the streets, though nowadays they usually just wreck on the track. In Formula 1, guys like this actually get a chance to survive long enough to realize that actually listening to advice works way better than ignoring it.

The guy has raw speed and all the traits of a legit legend, mostly because he's pulling the same kind of nonsense that Alain Prost, Ayrton Senna, Michael Schumacher, and Fernando Alonso did early on... 😉 plus a whole bunch of others who never even made it past that phase. 😁 Honestly, I love that we have ultra-fast, ultra-stubborn personalities like him and Lewis Hamilton. They can take a win and then completely blow it because they're too hot-blooded. That kind of fire has been missing from Formula 1 since the days of Juan Pablo Montoya. Though, I guess I hope he doesn't end up stuck at Montoya's level... (again, disclaimer: I actually loved Juan Pablo Montoya and used to root for him against all those bland, boring drivers who took over the sport...)

Man, don't just compare him to Juan Pablo Montoya... he's nothing like him!! He's way more talented. 😁

Michael Diaz4 said:If it turns out he’s actually got the talent to be considered a top-tier driver, then he belongs in a Ferrari. Period.

hollowgull5 said:Instead of Fernando Alonso. 🤣

Felipe Massa is driving with such a lack of composure that Ferrari will probably have no choice but to go out and hire both Robert Kubica and Sebastian Vettel just to fill the void next season. 😂😂

silvercobra68 said:Sebastian Vettel: Pros and Cons

Well, here we are. It’s been about three seasons since Sebastian Vettel established himself among the Formula 1 grid, which gives us plenty of data points to actually form an opinion.

1) There's no denying he can squeeze every ounce of potential out of an inferior car; he handles them incredibly well. However, he just can't seem to find that same gear when he's behind the wheel of a dominant machine. In that regard, he reminds me quite a bit of Giancarlo Fisichella. If you look back at the Italian's performances in subpar cars—think Spa 1997, Spa 2009, Interlagos 1999, or Interlagos 2003—they were nothing short of fantastic. Yet, when he had the top-tier machinery at those same tracks, say Spa 2005 or Interlagos 2006, he didn't exactly shine. So, it isn't a track issue, and it certainly isn't a car issue, because let's be honest, the 2006 Renault was lightyears ahead of the 1999 Benetton, both relatively and absolutely.

2) He started losing ground to this mysterious Australian veteran. On paper, the guy was born in 1974, but there’s plenty of chatter suggesting he was actually born in 1969 and the documents were doctored just so he could stay in the junior categories longer. The FIA is aware, but they seem content to look the other way. I suppose even FIFA turned a blind eye to Cirota. They know where the bodies are buried, and honestly, if it isn't hurting anyone, why bother? Though, in Sebastian Vettel's case, it does matter—if he were officially forty-one years old, losing to a driver like that would sting even more.

3) When it comes to head-to-head racing, he tends to lose out to more aggressive drivers in lesser cars (just look at how Lewis Hamilton overtook him in Barcelona). That kind of grit is usually found in drivers like Jarno Trulli, Timo Glock, or Heikki Kovalainen. Hmmm.

4) When he’s tasked with overtaking a slower car ahead of him, he often lacks the killer instinct and just gives up on the move (take Bahrain 2009 or Barcelona 2009).

The bottom line? Sebastian Vettel sits somewhere in the realm of Nico Rosberg—who was more or less on par with Mark Webber during their Williams days—meaning he's a solid driver. A future champion? I highly doubt it.

Anyway, let the debate begin.

You hit the nail on the head.

A total dud of a driver.🙏

silvercobra68 said:Sebastian Vettel: Pros and Cons

Alright, it’s been about three seasons since Sebastian Vettel joined the Formula 1 grid, so there’s enough data now to actually form an opinion.

1) When he's stuck in a subpar car, he handles it incredibly well and squeezes out every ounce of performance. That much is certain. But when he gets a dominant machine? He just can't find his rhythm. In that regard, he reminds me of Giancarlo Fisichella. Think back to those Italian drives in inferior cars at Spa 1997, Spa 2009, Interlagos 1999, or Interlagos 2003—absolutely brilliant stuff. Yet, in a dominant car at those same tracks, he wasn't nearly as impressive—take Spa 2005 or Interlagos 2006, for instance. So it isn't a track issue, and it definitely isn't the car, because let's be real, that 2006 Renault was lightyears ahead of the 1999 Benetton.

2) He started losing ground to some shady Australian veteran. On paper, the guy was born in '74, but there’s evidence he was actually born in '69 and the documents were doctored so he could hang around the junior categories longer. The FIA knows, but they've decided to look the other way. Honestly, even FIFA looked the other way for Cirota. They know what's up, and besides, it doesn't really hurt anyone. Well, except maybe Fetlu—but in a different way. If he were officially 41, losing to a driver like that would feel even more bitter.

3) On track, he loses head-to-head battles against more aggressive drivers in inferior cars (like how Lewis Hamilton passed him in Barcelona), which is a trait you see in drivers like Jarno Trulli, Timo Glock, or Heikki Kovalainen. Hmmmmm.

4) When he needs to overtake a slower car in front of him, he lacks the grit and just gives up on the move (Bahrain 2009, Barcelona 2009).

The verdict? Sebastian Vettel sits somewhere around Nico Rosberg (who was more or less on par with Mark Webber during their Williams days)—a solid driver, certainly. A future champion? Hard to say.

Anyway, discuss.

Biased. Basically, poorly constructed.
You're just cherry-picking the details that fit your narrative or satisfy your subconscious bias.

There's too much noise here, so I'll just pull out one specific point: "On track, he loses head-to-head battles against more aggressive drivers in inferior cars..."
It makes it sound like it happens constantly, rather than just once. When that same aggressive driver's chaotic pit lane maneuver was rejected last time, people attacked him for being a safety risk. Then the pressure shifts onto him instead of the other way around.

And the reason for opening this thread is ridiculous. Momčić dominates everyone for four races, cleans up in qualifying, and after a single race where he qualifies second (second, mind you, not eighth) and pulls one move during the race, you come here to dissect him. How interesting.

And you—if you're going to be consistent with your takes, why aren't you still writing panegyrics about how the current champion drove his race?
I predicted he wouldn't even crack the top five, and man, did I get that wrong. Meanwhile, the rest of you were too scared he might finish 8th to even bother making a prediction.

Joshua Newman2 said:You have to give Joe some credit; he's trying. 😁

The analysis itself is actually pretty solid, too. 🙏

It's just his spelling and grammar that kill me. It’s like reading something written by some kid in middle school.

Mark Webber was born:

http://www.formula1.com/teams_and_drivers/drivers/21/

Nothing controversial there.

Sebastian Vettel is a bit soft. I mean, maybe he's aggressive enough to remind you of an older Michael Schumacher, but he's definitely not going to be his successor. Hmm...

Andrew Parker41 said:It’s just his spelling and grammar that are a mess. It reads like something an elementary school kid wrote.

Travis Kelce was born:

http://www.formula1.com/teams_and_drivers/drivers/21/

There's nothing to argue about there.

Well, isn't that just lovely? Now they've polished him up to squeeze out another two years. I bet NASCAR knows all about what happened in 1969, but they're keeping quiet since it doesn't hurt anyone. It's pure vanity—worse than Joe Biden's.

silvercobra68 said:Great. Now they’ve given him a makeover just to squeeze out another two years. I bet NASCAR knows all about what happened back in '69, but they're keeping quiet since nobody's getting hurt. It's pure ego. Honestly, it's worse than anything Joe Biden would pull.

So, in your opinion, how many wins do Michael Schumacher and Rubens Barrichello have? 60 or more? 😂🤣

stormybadger8 said:Do you think Michael Schumacher and Rubens Barrichello have 60 or more? 😂🤣

Not every driver has a spotless record; most are just as old as their passports say they are. The only weird case is Emerson Fittipaldi, because his nurse recorded the wrong birth year, making him look two years younger on paper. But those are official documents that NASCAR can't touch—they come straight from the registry in New York City, and apparently, the officials there don't see any reason to fix it, which isn't exactly a crime. Webber's paperwork is a whole different mess, though. His birth year is listed as 1969 in the local registry, yet NASCAR's records—and even his passport!—say 1974, and now, suddenly, it says 1976.

silvercobra68 said:I guess everyone else has a clean slate, right? They’re exactly as old as their passports say they are. The only weird case is Emerson Fittipaldi—it's kind of murky there. Apparently, some nurse at the hospital botched his birth year, so according to official records, he looks two years younger than he actually is. But hey, those are the legal documents, and NASCAR can't exactly do anything about them. Those records are held by the registrar in New York City, and I suppose they aren't exactly rushing to fix a clerical error from decades ago. It’s not like it’s a huge deal. Webber’s paperwork, though... that's a whole different story. His official birth year in the registry is 1969, but according to NASCAR—and even his own passport!—it says 1974. And now, suddenly, it's changed again to 1976. Makes you wonder.

What have you been drinking to get that view of Ozzie? Seriously, the guy just looks older... nobody would actually guess he was born in '69. Just look at how Michael Schumacher turned out (01.03.1969)! I mean, Mark is definitely the "handsome" one here. 😁😁 He looks totally Superman compared to that fake-looking German guy. 😁 I guess Mark Webber just has a girlfriend who looks way older than him... maybe?
.......☕

Honestly, even Gilles Villeneuve was actually two years older than what his racing license claimed, and Perry McCarthy pulled the same stunt with his age too. There were plenty of other cases like that out there... 😁

stormyviper11 said:It wasn't just a one-off; Gilles Villeneuve was actually two years older than his racing license claimed, and Perry McCarthy pulled the same stunt regarding his age. There have been plenty of instances like this over the years... 😁

And what about Webber?
Age inflation isn't exactly unheard of in sports. You see collegiate athletes lie about being younger to secure scholarships, or Chinese gymnasts at the Olympics claiming they’re older just to meet eligibility requirements. But there is a massive gulf between fudging a year or two and the seven-year discrepancy silvercobra68 is suggesting regarding Webber.

Joshua Newman2 said:And what about Webber?
Lying about age happens in sports all the time: college athletes fudge their stats to get scholarships, or those Chinese gymnasts at the Olympics lied about being older just to qualify. But there's a massive difference between stretching the truth by a year or two and claiming this guy is seven years older, like silvercobra68 is suggesting about Webber.

Hold on a second... what exactly are you basing this belief in silvercobra68's wild guesses about this veteran Australian's age? ☕

I've been following Mark Webber since his days at McLaren back in 2002, and I haven't seen any data regarding his "birth certificate" other than the official word that he took his first breath of fresh Australian air in September 1976.?!

Everyone knew the deal with Gilles Villeneuve, and Perry McCarthy was a famous "case," but calling it some kind of "conspiracy theory" that a guy from Australia is as old as Babylon? 🤷...I mean, where is the actual evidence or data for these claims? 😕

☕

Andrew Parker41 said:Hold on a second... what exactly are you basing your argument on when you back up Joe's claims about how much that veteran Australian has aged? ☕
☕

I’m not even looking to start an argument here...
I don't know much about this subject, so I figured I'd turn to someone who actually knows their stuff. stormyviper11I’ll probably end up typing more words than necessary anyway. I didn't bother asking silvercobra68 for his take because, frankly, I knew I’d just be served a side salad of arrogant nonsense. But now that stormyviper11 has dropped by the thread, there might actually be some hope for a decent conversation.

Does anyone actually have an explanation for how Vettel's pros and cons have anything to do with Webber's age? 🤣

Joshua Newman2 said:I'm not even trying to argue here...
I don't know anything about this stuff, so I figured I'd ask someone who actually knows their way around the subject, stormyviper11. I didn't bother asking Joe because I knew I'd just end up getting a side helping of arrogant nonsense, but now that stormyviper11 has popped into the thread, maybe there's a chance we'll get some actual answers...

To be honest, this is the first time I've ever heard anyone talking about controversy regarding Webber's actual age.

stormybadger8 said:Does anyone actually have a logical explanation for how Vettel’s strengths and weaknesses are supposed to be linked to Mark Webber's age? 🤣

Most people view him as just another mid-tier driver—someone who isn't even worth mentioning in the conversation about the elite. Last year, he barely managed to make the starting grid because he was still reeling from an open leg fracture and a broken collarbone. Now, there’s even talk that he’s practically the same age as Bernie. Meanwhile, Vettel is widely considered one of the greatest talents currently sitting in a Formula 1 cockpit. So, how is it that when you look at the actual data—the raw pace, the qualifying laps, and the points tally—the gap between them is so incredibly thin?