Pros and Cons of Sebastian Vettel

Joshua Newman2 said:Most people just see him as some average Formula 1 driver—definitely not someone you'd put in the GOAT conversation. Last year was a total disaster for him; he barely even made it to the start of the season after dealing with a nasty broken leg and a fractured collarbone. Now, there’s even talk that he’s practically the same age as Bernie. Meanwhile, everyone agrees that Vettel is easily one of the greatest talents on the current grid. So, how does it make sense that their stats—the raw pace, qualifying, and points—are actually so close?

Last year's head-to-head—counting only the races where they both actually finished—was 6-4 in favor of Vettel.
Every single race— Mark Webber leads 9-8.
So what? At the end of the season, Mark Webber is still trailing Vettel by 15 points.
Qualifying was basically a 15-2 blowout, or whatever. Honestly, I think Mark Webber only actually beat him maybe twice the entire season.

Vettel is sitting pretty at 3-1 this season.
If you actually factor in the DNFs—given Vettel has one and Mark Webber has zero—it’s a 3-2 lead for Vettel.
Qualifying in Kuala Lumpur: Vettel takes it 3-2.

The point gap basically comes down to one thing: Vettel's track record so far.
One DNF—mechanical failure.
Two DNFs in a row—just a straight-up mechanical failure.

Total loss from those team mechanical failures.
Bahrain - 13
USA - 25
Spain - 3
That's 41 points in total.
Mark Webber hasn't had a single breakdown, yet he’s still somehow worse.

To wrap it all up:
Vettel 60 + 41 = 101. Math doesn't lie.
It was neck and neck with Mark Webber back in '13.

Almost double.🤣

stormybadger8 said:Last year's races (the ones they both actually finished) were 6-4 for Vettel...
All races combined? Mark Webber was up 9-8...
Yet at the end of the season, Mark Webber is still trailing Vettel by 15 points...
In qualifying, the ratio was roughly 15-2—I can't be certain, but I think Mark Webber was better maybe twice all season.

This season, the race count is 3-1 for Vettel...
If you factor in DNFs (Vettel has one, Mark Webber has zero), then it's 3-2 for Vettel...
Qualifying is 3-2 for Vettel too...

That tiny point gap mostly comes down to the fact that Vettel has dealt with:
1 x DNF - technical failure on the race car
2 x lost positions - technical failure on the race car

Total points lost due to those failures...
Bahrain - 13
USA - 25
Spain - 3
That's 41 points total...
Mark Webber hasn't had a single technical issue, yet he's still lagging behind.

The math:
Vettel 60 + 41 = 101
vs Mark Webber 53

Almost double...🤣

There have been plenty of "massive" talents in Formula 1... but very few actually turned that potential into real results...

...all that's some nice stats you're throwing out there, but they aren't going to win him a championship or fix his mistakes on track...🙂

It just feels like a attempt to justify his lack of success so far...

I'm not saying Vettel isn't talented... anyone who says that is an idiot... but so far, he hasn't shown anything beyond just being "talented"... He's only as good as the race car he's driving, and about 75% of the guys on the grid today have that same level of skill...😉

You can be as talented as you want, but once that race car starts falling apart, you’re basically helpless.

It’s no different than blaming Fernando Alonso for his engine blowing up in Malaysia.

Look, there’s zero debate here: Vettel is still just a talent who needs to prove himself. Only time will tell if he’s actually going somewhere or if he’s a bust.

That said, he’s already shown way more in his short Formula 1 career than plenty of guys who’ve been around for a decade. I can barely name a few drivers who’ve actually finished a full season in the top 10, let alone those who were even in the title fight until the end.

First (half season) - 14
Second (first full season - backmarker car) - 8 (including a win in that thing)
Third (second full season - top 3 car) - 2
Fourth (third full season - top 3 car) - this has to be the year he takes the title.

Bottom line: this is his make-or-break year.
But honestly, there are a ton of things out of his control:
- The competition is insanely tough.
- Mark Webber is looking better than ever.
- The race car is blisteringly fast, but it's also incredibly fragile and prone to breaking.

Then there are his own little quirks:
- He isn't consistently beating Mark Webber in qualifying like he did last year.
- He lacks aggression during duels.
- Team strategy is a massive weak link; either he needs to step up, or the team needs to fix it—and him fixing it is definitely the better option.

If he manages to snag the title against this level of competition, nobody will be able to argue he isn't one of the greats. He’d easily land in today’s top 5, maybe even the top 3 in Formula 1.

Of course, there's also a very real chance he'll just disappoint everyone and sink like so many others before him. As they say, "we'll see."

I gotta throw one more thing into the ring here... Look, Vettel has had the most competitive machine on the grid for two out of his three seasons in Formula 1—and he still does—and honestly, very few rookies ever get handed an opportunity like that on a silver platter.

He absolutely has to capitalize on this year, because if he doesn't, I’m genuinely worried his whole career might just head off in the wrong direction...
...just imagine if Red Bull stops being a powerhouse in the coming years (which, let's be real, is a totally plausible scenario), and those top teams like Ferrari, McLaren, or Mercedes don't bother showing him any interest...

...then what? Where were you, "Master," and what on earth were you doing with your life?
- Oh, you know, I was young! Dammit!

Man, I really hope it doesn't come to that... mostly because I won't have anyone left to root for once Schumacher moves on.

wiredtiger8 said:One more thing... In his three seasons in Formula 1 so far, he had the best car in two of them (and still does). Not many rookies get a break like that.

He has to capitalize on this year. If he doesn't, I’m worried his career might head south fast...
...say Red Bull stops being a contender in the coming years (which is a real possibility), and the top teams (Ferrari, McLaren, and Mercedes) don't show any interest in him)...

...then what? Where were you, Master, and what were you doing?
- Oh, you know, I was young! Dammit!

I really hope that doesn't happen... because I won't have anyone left to root for once Schumacher leaves.

You mean to say one season he had one of the most competitive race cars, and now he has a second one 😉
We're talking about Vettel here, not Lewis Hamilton.

In 2008, Vettel was in a Toro Rosso, and there is no way that race car was the most competitive on the grid.🙂

You guys are getting some things wrong. This is just the start of the second season where Vettel supposedly has the "best car." Toro Rosso wasn't a complete disaster, but it wasn't exactly elite either. You can't honestly say Vettel has been driving the best car on the grid for ages; realistically, he hasn't even had one full season in it.☕

Red Bull only became the best car halfway through last season, so they haven't even had one full season yet. And even then, it's highly debatable:

Qualifying pace - The best
Race pace - Top 3
Reliability - At the bottom of the pack—honestly, these guys are noticeably better:
McLaren, Ferrari, MGP, Williams, Renault, and even Force India
Team tactics and organization - Almost as bad as their reliability

So, this whole "best car" argument isn't exactly accurate.😉
Red Bull is just as green as Vettel, and you definitely can't call them the top team.

stormybadger8 said:there are also a few quirks to consider:
- he isn't consistently beating Mark Webber in qualifying like he did last year
- he lacks aggression during wheel-to-wheel duels
- strategy remains an extremely weak link, and things need to change significantly—either he does it himself (which is by far the best bet) or the team has to step up

"

How can you be realistic when you want to be? Unfortunately, three weak points are just too many. Alonso and Lewis Hamilton have maybe one, perhaps two at most, but three...

stormybadger8 said:you guys are getting some things wrong; we're only at the start of a second season where Hamilton supposedly has the "best race car." AlphaTauri wasn't a complete disaster, but they weren't exactly elite either.

An average, mediocre driver under the alias Sebastian Unknown managed to qualify 4th for the race at Monza back in 2008 using that same junk heap. So it really wasn't as massive a sensation as people tend to claim. Besides, the general consensus is that AlphaTauri was actually better than Red Bull Racing in 2008.

silvercobra68 said:Some mediocre, yellowish driver going by the name Sebastian Unknown managed to qualify 4th at Monza back in 2008. So it wasn't exactly the earth-shattering miracle everyone claims it was. Besides, there's a general consensus that AlphaTauri was actually better than Red Bull Racing in 2008.

Funny thing is, that same Unknown guy ended the season with 4 points compared to Hamilton's 35.

He didn't beat Hamilton in qualifying even once, and we're talking about a multi-time champion facing other series winners here.

No, AlphaTauri definitely wasn't better than Red Bull Racing. Hamilton himself was better than the entire Red Bull Racing team combined—basically better than Mark Webber and David Coulthard put together.

silvercobra68 said:How can you be selective about being realistic? Unfortunately, three weak spots is just too many. Alonso and Hamilton have maybe one, tops two, but three...

They’ve got them too, and just like Hamilton, if not more.☕

Hamilton’s been driving the best race car for years—he hasn't even seen a bad one. The team is solid, too. He basically did the same thing Hamilton did, except he snatched the title in a crazy finish thanks to a massive dose of luck. If he had worked with a slightly better crew from Ferrari, he’d still be dreaming about that title today. He didn't win it; Ferrari's incompetent pit crew handed it to him on a silver platter.

Alonso has some nasty personality flaws and serious confidence issues, but honestly, he's better than both of them right now.

@stormybadger8/">@@stormybadger8...

...Of course we're talking about Vettel, but when you bring up Hamilton—he’s really the only one I can think of who stepped into a competitive race car right out of the gate, actually made the most of his shot (luckily enough), and climbed all the way to being a Formula 1 champion.

I’m thinking back to last season when Red Bull Racing was absolutely killing it during the second half—though, let's be real, we all know Jenson Button was basically invisible during the first part.

And yeah, I'm looking at this current stretch too—by which I mean the second season. I know the season has barely even kicked off, but that one-second gap Red Bull Racing is carving out in qualifying compared to whoever is in second place? That's massive. It's enough to say that his (Vettel's) race car just doesn't have any real competition.

But hey... like I told you once before, I'm way harder on Vettel than you are.

stormybadger8 said:But look, he’s already shown so much in this short time in Formula 1. Compared to plenty of guys who've been here for a decade, I can't think of many drivers who finished their full seasons in the TOP 10. There are tons of them who were never even in the title fight by the end of the season.

Don't go comparing him to the losers... there's an infinite amount of those out there...

If you compare any driver to the losers in his league, he ends up looking way better than he actually is...

...compare Vettel to Alonso or Michael Schumacher or even Lewis Hamilton—guys who are legends in their own right and where Vettel is either just getting close or still a bit below the mark. He's still got some growing up to do before he hits their level...

Right now, he's just raw talent in an incredibly high-quality race car, hasn't really shown anything beyond what that fast machine allows him to do...

Actually, I'm talking nonsense... he might have even shown less than what the car's potential suggests...☕

stormybadger8 said:First (half season) - 14
Second (first full season - mid-field car) - 8 (including a win with that kind of car)
Third (second full season - top 3 car) - 2
Fourth (third full season - top 3 car) - This definitely has to be the season where he takes the title

All in all, this is the year he has to prove himself.
However, there are several things out of his control:
- Insanely tough competition
- Mark Webber looks better than ever
- The race car is incredibly fast, but also super fragile and prone to breaking down

And then there are his own quirks:
- He isn't beating Webber in qualifying consistently like last year
- He lacks aggression during duels
- Strategy is a massive weak point; they need to fix it, whether it's him (not the best option) or the team itself

That's kid stuff... we all know Webber is the pure powerhouse in that team, so you can expect him to flash brilliance every five races or so...

It's like saying Michael Schumacher was the greatest of the greats just because he was better every single season than Barrichello, even though they were driving the exact same car.🙄

stormybadger8 said:But if he pulls off a title against competition like this, absolutely nobody will be able to tell him he doesn't belong among the Legends, or even in today's TOP 5 or even the TOP 3 drivers in Formula 1.

but there’s also a legit chance he’ll just end up being another massive disappointment and crash and burn like so many others before him. basically, "we'll just have to wait and see," said the blind folks...

if my grandma were a guy, she’d be named Doug..

what's gonna happen? who knows... we can't predict the future. all we know is what Hamilton has done up to this point..

He’s shown plenty... but honestly, given how good that race car actually is, he should've been doing way more.. 😉

Why on earth is Hamilton supposedly better than Vettel? 😕

Hamilton isn't even close to being better than Vettel. He had an insanely dominant race car and snagged the title, but don't credit him for it. Sure, he’s decent, but let's be real—Ferrari was a total mess under Massa, performing nothing better than Jenson Button. Honestly, Hamilton is just the same kid in different packaging. You can actually draw a direct parallel between their championship wins:

2009 - Button had a dominant car—one tiny dip in form and he immediately tumbled from 3rd to 8th.
- With Red Bull Racing and Vettel in the mix, there were so many mistakes elsewhere that it was basically a gift.

2008 - Hamilton had a dominant car all season long, yet his own terrible driving and ridiculous blunders practically threw the season away.
- Between the Massa/Räikkönen competition and Ferrari being so desperately bad—making literal moronic mistakes at times—they handed a championship on a silver platter to a struggling Hamilton.

If anything, Button's title win was more convincing than his.

Looking at this season, Hamilton is easily the biggest disappointment among the title contenders, not Vettel. ☕

Vettel - drives the fastest car in qualifying, and the only reason he isn't first is due to mechanical failures.
Hamilton - drives the second fastest car in qualifying but the fastest in races, yet he still isn't winning because of his own stupidity and mistakes.

Hamilton is a much bigger letdown. If you have to pick one, fine, but looking back at the start, the real favorites were:
Alonso, Hamilton, Michael Schumacher, and then some dark horses like Vettel, Jenson Button, and maybe Robert Kubica.

Vettel - solid, but I wanted more.
Alonso - solid, but expected more.
Button - way beyond expectations.
Hamilton - way below expectations.
Michael Schumacher - a total disappointment. I don't even have words; it's hard to wrap my head around how this happened.
Nico Rosberg - way beyond expectations.
Mark Webber - way beyond expectations.

That’s just my take. If anyone had told me that:
Rosberg would outperform Michael Schumacher, I would've said, "You're insane."
Or that Button would beat Hamilton... 🤣😂😂 ...there wasn't even a theoretical chance.

As it stands, Alonso and Vettel are pretty much at the top, and everyone else is trailing behind. I expected more from both of them, but they aren't doing too badly either.

stormybadger8 said:how exactly is Hamilton better than Vettel? 😕

Hamilton is worse than Vettel, and by quite a margin. He had an ultra-dominant race car and snagged the championship not because he’s actually that good, but because Ferrari was completely incompetent alongside Massa. Honestly, he's nothing more than a different package of the same kid as Button. You can even draw a direct parallel between their title wins:

2009 - Button had a dominant race car - one tiny dip in form and he immediately dropped from 3rd to 8th.
- Red Bull Racing competition was so strong, yet Vettel made enough mistakes that there was no way he wouldn't take the title.

2008 - Hamilton had a dominant race car the entire time - but through his incredibly poor driving and ridiculous blunders, he practically threw away a season that was handed to him.
- The Massa/Räikkönen and Ferrari competition was so desperately bad, making literal moronic mistakes at times, they managed to screw up a championship that a mediocre Hamilton should have lost.
.

Ortosti, 2008 wasn't so close that we can't admit Ferrari was clearly faster than McLaren. Look, I'm the last person who would ever praise the guy, but I have to be objective here. That wasn't a title won in a superior car. Not at all. On the contrary, Massa blew it—actually, if we're being honest, it was Räikkönen. That title should have been Räikkönen's, but he's just a lazy bum.

stormybadger8 said:how on earth is Hamilton better than Vettel? 😕

Hamilton is actually worse than Vettel, and by a mile...

🤦

if you're gonna take my word for it...

once I saw what I was quoting in the rest of your post, I didn't even want to finish reading it..

Look, man, your bias is just off the charts... 🙄

I really hope Beck's is still your favorite beer, otherwise we're gonna have some serious misunderstandings 😉

maybe even Bavaria could pass 😬

silvercobra68 said:Look, 2008 wasn't that long ago, and we can all admit Ferrari was clearly faster than McLaren. I’m probably the last person who’d ever praise them, but I have to be objective here. That title wasn't won by having a superior race car. Not even close. If anything, Massa got robbed—honestly, it should have been Kimi. He should've taken it, but he's just too lazy.

Saying McLaren was such a slow bucket of bolts that an AlphaTauri could pass them on track🙄 or that Timo Glock in a Toyota could do it? Yeah, right. Give me a break.🤣

We can lie to ourselves if we want, just like how we claim today that Red Bull Racing is miles ahead of everyone else, when the reality is that once you add up everything needed for actual success:

Qualifying pace
Race pace
Tire management
Strategy
Pit stops and crew
Reliability

Looking at the teams as a whole this season, McLaren barely has any real competition. Realistically, it's:
1. McLaren
2. Ferrari
3. Red Bull Racing

If we really wanted to live in a fantasy land, we could say Force India is the best team out there.

A fast race car means nothing if it's unreliable or if the team is a mess. They aren't the first or the last team to operate with such half-baked execution.

ruggedfox28 said:🤦

If you're actually going to take my word for it...

Once I read what I quoted, I didn't even bother finishing the rest of your post.

Look, buddy, your bias is honestly getting out of hand. 🙄

I just hope Beck's is your favorite beer, because otherwise we’re going to have some serious misunderstandings. 😉

Bavaria should be fine too. 😬

You're being subjective, not me.😉

Look, I’m trying to be completely objective here, even though writing this was a massive struggle for me. 😢

Seriously, someone please explain to me how Lewis Hamilton is supposedly better than Vettel when his own teammate is constantly tearing him apart. And this is the same guy this entire forum has been calling a total fraud for years.
And people actually have the nerve to compare Lewis Hamilton to Senna and Michael Schumacher.

So what's the deal with Button being some kind of god? And Fangio? What does that even mean? Is Button actually better than Senna and Michael Schumacher combined or something?😕

Explain to me how it isn't a total disaster that Hamilton is sitting in 6th while Button is in 1st, trailing by 21 points.☕

It’s a massive disappointment, honestly. Even if his engine blew up four times in a row, the fact that Hamilton is trailing Mark Webber by 21 points is just brutal. Half of you guys would probably claim he’s a complete amateur anyway.

Lewis Hamilton has been pretty disappointing so far this season.

I actually really like the guy personally. His driving style is awesome. But if we’re going to judge Hamilton solely based on points—while conveniently ignoring all those mechanical failures—and call him bad because he didn't rack them up, then let's be fair and apply that same logic to Michael Schumacher and everyone else.

Lewis Hamilton is only sitting five points ahead of Robert Kubica in that painfully slow Renault. If you compare that car to what McLaren and Red Bull Racing are putting on the track, then honestly, what is Hamilton even doing? Total disappointment.

stormybadger8 said:McLaren barely has any real competition this season. If we're looking at the teams as a whole, the reality is:
1. McLaren
2. Ferrari
3. Red Bull 4th

.

And what can you even say to that!?!?!?!?😕. SOMEONE CALL A DOCTOR! Get him out of here!

silvercobra68 said:Seriously? What am I even supposed to say to that!?!?!?!?😕 Someone call a doctor! Get this guy out of here!

🙄

You really want me to admit I'm crazy and agree that Red Bull Racing is better than Ferrari and McLaren just because of those bolded points?

Qualifying pace
Race pace
Tire wear
strategy
pit stops and crew
reliability

stormybadger8 said:🙄

Do you really want me to admit I'm crazy and say Red Bull Racing is better than Ferrari and McLaren based on these bold claims?

Qualifying pace
Race pace
Tire degradation
strategy
pit stops and crew
reliability

Red Bull is simply the car to have this year—it's a dominant machine, plain and simple. It's obvious to everyone, but apparently, when Jacques Villeneuve was driving for a team prone to tactical blunders, nobody noticed. Oh boy, oh boy, oh boy.

That’s all there is to it. In my opinion, the best comparison is Vettel = Jacques Villeneuve. That is his ceiling. There you go, he even has the potential to become World Champion.

silvercobra68 said:Red Bull Racing has the car to have this year—it's a dominant machine, period. It’s obvious to everyone. When Jacques Villeneuve was driving the best car in a team prone to tactical blunders, you guys didn't seem to notice. Oh boy, oh boy.

That's really it. In my view, the best comparison is Fetl = Jacques Villeneuve. That's the limit of that driver. Look, he even has the potential to become a World Champion.

Don't compare Sebastian Vettel to Villeneuve. The latter sat in the most dominant car of his era and was champion solely because of that. Just remember how much faster Michael Schumacher was in the corners and in the rain.🙏 Michael Schumacher is the greatest Formula 1 driver of all time 🙏, while these other guys are just flashes in the pan who vanish the moment they lose the fastest car. Vettel is a completely different story. He hasn't had a dominant car yet, but he's always been at the top, fighting for first place. And then people have the nerve to say he can't drive. He might be the greatest talent of all time (after Michael Schumacher, obviously🙏) and once he gets a more reliable car, he’ll be the World Champion. Even now, he doesn't quite have the absolute fastest car (someone already elaborated on that), but damn the unreliability and those stupid breakdowns. He hasn't made a single driving error so far. Why was he driving on the edge with failing brakes? Because a true killer driver with championship material has the aggression to have to drive like that. There is no doubt he is the best young driver in the entire Formula 1 circus. Whenever threads like this start popping up, it means there's something to them. Hamilton is one of the dimmest drivers I've ever watched; only Andrea de Krasheris was comparable in stupidity (though no younger fan will probably remember him after 20 years, but he was definitely clueless, almost like how we call Hamilton "Hamo" here😁)