United States GP - Sep 26, 2010

wiredtiger8 said:There’s one thing nobody seems to be paying attention to... and unfortunately, neither are the stewards.
Basically, regarding that "incident" between Mark Webber and Lewis Hamilton, the blame actually lies with those trailing Lotus drivers. Instead of clearing out immediately once the SC came in, they just sat there stalling—especially Webber—which basically handed Lewis his opening to attack.
I have no clue why the officials don't penalize stuff like this... I mean, what is Jarno Trulli doing hovering five or six corners ahead of Webber when he's got Hamilton breathing down his neck like absolute fire?
Besides, if we look back at when Michael Schumacher didn't play fair by failing to clear out Alonso and Sebastian Vettel right away...
When people just lack common sense, the only thing that works is a penalty... specifically a fine.
That’s how you make them learn the rules fast.
That being said, I don't personally think what happened between Mark Webber and Lewis Hamilton warrants a penalty.

Oh, and before I forget... let's talk about another "brilliant" tactical move from Red Bull... truly "fantastic" timing on that pit stop.
I honestly can't remember a single team in history—especially one fighting for a championship—that has made such a string of catastrophically bad decisions.

These "new" drivers who seem to be running their own private championship just to avoid finishing last (per Neven Novak 🤣) are an unbelievable danger on track. Every single time, it's some kind of absolute mess with them. I've watched the footage of the lap when the Safety Car peels off several times, and it's glaringly obvious that that trailing Lotus caused the whole mess by slowing Webber down, allowing Hamilton to make the move, and then... well, history was made.🙂

But hey, as long as we have 183 teams on the grid, who cares if they're a hazard to themselves and everyone else, or if they directly interfere with the title fight. Go Bernie! 😠

wiredtiger8 said:What am I talking about?
I'm talking about the fact that Red Bull could—and should—be practicing these tactical maneuvers so they aren't caught off guard.
Think about it: Sebastian Vettel dives into the pits and only *then* does the crew scramble... they have a solid 7 to 10 seconds before the car actually reaches the mechanics. That is more than enough time for a crew that isn't running around like headless chickens.
And let's be real, this isn't some groundbreaking tactical genius stuff... we saw this kind of chess match back in the 1998-1999 seasons during those legendary battles between McLaren and Ferrari.

The bottom line is this: if you have the car in second place and you're clearly faster on track (which was obviously the case with Sebastian Vettel), you hold the tactical upper hand when it comes to pit strategy.
Now, whether you can actually turn that theoretical advantage into a win on Sunday is a whole different story. Red Bull clearly can't.

So yeah, that's my point...

I'm with mistybear87 on this one. First off, your reasoning that Sebastian Vettel was the fastest on track doesn't really hold water, considering how the fastest lap times kept swinging between him and Fernando Alonso throughout the race...☕

Secondly, you’re such an absolute perfectionist. You’d need a full 12 seconds just to account for the crew stepping out (7-8 seconds) and the tire change itself (3-4 seconds). So according to you, after 15 seconds, the mechanics are already just sitting there relaxing in the pit box... I'd love to see that happen once in my life! 🙏

wiredtiger8 said:What am I talking about?
I'm talking about the fact that Red Bull could—and should—be practicing these tactical maneuvers so they aren't caught off guard.
Think about it: Sebastian Vettel dives into the pits and only *then* does the crew scramble... they have a solid 7 to 10 seconds before the car actually reaches the mechanics. That is more than enough time for a crew that isn't running around like headless chickens.
And let's be real, this isn't some groundbreaking tactical genius stuff... we saw this kind of chess match back in the 1998-1999 seasons during those legendary battles between McLaren and Ferrari.

The bottom line is this: if you have the car in second place and you're clearly faster on track (which was obviously the case with Sebastian Vettel), you hold the tactical upper hand when it comes to pit strategy.
Now, whether you can actually turn that theoretical advantage into a win on Sunday is a whole different story. Red Bull clearly can't.

So yeah, that's my point...

Well, just like wearygull20 said, you're living in an ideal world. In your version, the Red Bull mechanics head out just a few seconds before the driver arrives so everything is perfectly set. Then, the Ferrari pit wall reacts instantly, sending their crew out and notifying Fernando Alonso to dive in.

Yesterday was a very specific scenario because Mark Webber was already in the pits, so there was no doubt that Sebastian Vettel was the one coming in next. Ferrari mentioned they hadn't had the chance to pull off a maneuver like that until yesterday precisely because it requires such a unique setup.

If you take a moment to look back at footage from previous races, you'll see just how much earlier the mechanics usually head out. 😉

I just went back through the footage of the pit stops, timing everything myself with a stopwatch.
The Red Bull crew starts moving out 15 seconds (!!!) before Sebastian Vettel even hits his marks. Seven seconds after that, he’s already doing 80 through the pit lane heading straight toward them. Meanwhile, the Ferrari crew steps out just 2 seconds after the Red Bull guys. From the moment the mechanics move until the second Sebastian Vettel peels away on fresh rubber, we're looking at a total of 20 seconds. In my view, that is about as fast as a pit stop can be executed. It seems simple enough, but Ferrari had an impeccable strategy—they clearly practiced this until they perfected it, and that's exactly why they won the race.

As for which car was actually faster, here is the raw data from the race:

............Lap 16....................Lap 17....................... ..............lap 18
Alonso: 1.51.666..................1.51.814................ ..................1.51.317
Seb: +0.28.....................+0.42................... ...................+0.4

Gap at Lap 17: 3.168

Sebastian Vettel was faster during laps 23, 24, and 25, which narrowed the gap down to 2.092. Then, immediately on lap 27, Alonso finds another gear and runs 0.4 faster than Sebastian Vettel.

The way I see it, he built up that three-second cushion by lap 17 through means other than just being faster than Sebastian Vettel. So, leading up to the pit entry on lap 30, Sebastian Vettel was likely only faster for maybe 4 or 5 laps... maybe a few more...

Yeah, at the end of the day, we're talking about pure perfectionism here. I mean, let's be real—you can't even talk about Formula 1 without it being all about that. It’s baked into the DNA.

Whatever, though—personally? I think it’s totally doable.

We'll just have to wait and see... but my gut tells me everything is heading toward even more flawless, lightning-fast pit stops that happen before you even realize what hit you.

wiredtiger8 said:Yeah, at the end of the day, we're talking about pure perfectionism here. I mean, let's be real—you can't even talk about Formula 1 without it being all about that. It’s baked into the DNA.

Whatever, though—personally? I think it’s totally doable.

We'll just have to wait and see... but my gut tells me everything is heading toward even more flawless, lightning-fast pit stops that happen before you even realize what hit you.

It’s certainly doable,
but isn't the risk just massive? In that kind of frantic rush, a mechanic could easily trip over a cable, or a tire might slip right out of their hands and go flying down the pit lane. Or what if they grab the wrong set entirely? That kind of mistake could cost a driver several positions in an instant.😉
Another point to consider is that all of this has to be optimized—every single detail prepared for those exact high-pressure scenarios and practiced until it's second nature. Once you do that, you're looking at immense pressure on the pit crew during those final laps, especially for teams that are circling back for a late stop. You see how the Lotus mechanics can sometimes get organized comfortably once their car pulls in, whereas Mercedes certainly doesn't have that luxury.😉
The guys at Ferrari used to have at least a second or two more breathing room for preparation compared to the Red Bull crew.😉

You make a fair point, though. I doubt Red Bull would attempt a maneuver like that again at the next race, and you can bet your life that Ferrari already has a counter-strategy ready, and McLaren will likely develop one too. This felt like a one-off; it'll be tough to see it repeated.

There’s going to be plenty more tactical maneuvering and head games coming, without a doubt. Back when Ross Brawn was running things at Ferrari, I felt relatively relaxed about how they handled strategy and outsmarting the field... but this current crew? They just don't inspire much confidence in me...

wearygull20 said:These "new" drivers who seem to be running their own private championship just to avoid finishing last (per Neven Novak 🤣) are an unbelievable danger on track. Every single time, it's some kind of absolute mess with them. I've watched the footage of the lap when the Safety Car peels off several times, and it's glaringly obvious that that trailing Lotus caused the whole mess by slowing Webber down, allowing Hamilton to make the move, and then... well, history was made.🙂

But hey, as long as we have 183 teams on the grid, who cares if they're a hazard to themselves and everyone else, or if they directly interfere with the title fight. Go Bernie! 😠

And that's not even the half of it; they completely screwed over Jenson Button in the last race too. 🤦

If that random guy (I think it was Virgin Racing) hadn't ended up ahead of Button during the lap when Fernando Alonso was exiting the pits, you have to wonder if Alonso would have even passed him at all. 😳

Not to mention Heikki Kovalainen's defensive driving 🤣 and Mark Webber basically flying through the air—there's really nothing left to say about that mess. 🤣

mistybear87 said:And let's be honest, even if they had pitted, Fernando Alonso would have likely come in right alongside him, leaving them right back where they started. Sebastian Vettel just couldn't find any way to turn that situation to his advantage, no matter how hard he tried.😉

Plus, there’s another issue here. 😬

For the last few races, all driver-to-pitwall comms have been broadcast live. 😳

You can bet your life the guys in the garage aren't sitting there without a monitor or someone telling them exactly when the Red Bull crew tells Vettel "pit in this lap." 🤣

Honestly, I’m sure that crap plays a role too. 😉

stormybadger8 said:Plus, there’s another issue here. 😬

For the last few races, all driver-to-pitwall comms have been broadcast live. 😳

You can bet your life the guys in the garage aren't sitting there without a monitor or someone telling them exactly when the Red Bull crew tells Vettel "pit in this lap." 🤣

Honestly, I’m sure that crap plays a role too. 😉

Absolutely😉
though teams can easily develop their own internal shorthand. For instance, if Sebastian Vettel asks about his brake performance, they might just tell him they'll check it out. Then, when it’s actually time for him to come in, they could simply tell him his brakes are "fantastic."🙂

Anything is possible, provided you have the right minds sitting on that pitwall😉

If that Webber-Hamilton incident hadn't happened, I guess old man would've been penalized too... they wouldn't have been allowed to pull that after how they handled the decision to penalize Mark Webber 😁

mistybear87 Asks:
Anything is possible, really. It all just comes down to having the right minds on the pit wall. 😉

It’ll end up looking like we’re the smartest ones in the entire pit lane.

But we all know that isn't the case, right? 😁

It was a stroke of luck, though I have my doubts that Ferrari did this on purpose.

Those Italians, man. Give me a break. 😁

Jason Campbell70 said:

mistybear87 Asks:
Anything is possible, really. It all just comes down to having the right minds on the pit wall. 😉

It’ll end up looking like we’re the smartest ones in the entire pit lane.

But we all know that isn't the case, right? 😁

It was a stroke of luck, though I have my doubts that Ferrari did this on purpose.

Those Italians, man. Give me a break. 😁

🙏👍

Yeah, looks like pure coincidence to me too.🤣

Both of them got lucky. If they'd stayed out one more lap, they would've been screwed.🤣

http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre...e-analysis.pdf

Look down at Massin, Hulkenberg, etc., lap 31.🤣

That's the lap Kobayashi crashed, then the SC comes out on lap 32.

And Alonso and Vettel pit on lap 30. If either one—or anyone else for that matter—had stayed out, that crazy Mark Webber would've won.😱

Dammit, if Sebastian Vettel doesn't have a shot at the title at the end, I'm rooting for Alonso.🤦

I just can't bring myself to root for Lewis Hamilton or Mark Webber.🙄

stormybadger8 As requested by stormybadger8:
I honestly couldn't bring myself to do it if my life depended on it. I just can't force myself to root for Lewis Hamilton or Mark Webber.🙄

I find myself in complete agreement. 🙄

Mark Webber has once again demonstrated just how volatile and difficult he can be as a driver. Is it just me, or does he seem to struggle constantly with his temperament? It feels like we're seeing this pattern repeat itself over and over again. 🤮

I have to say, my respect for Fernando Alonso has grown just a little bit following these last two races. He’s been driving with such incredible focus lately. It’s quite impressive to watch, even if it's clear that Ferrari is lagging behind Red Bull Racing in terms of raw pace...

Does anyone actually root for Mark Webber anymore? 🤷

I can't think of a single soul.... poor Webber, nobody seems to care for him...😢

Between that business with Seb and now this situation with Hemić, I honestly don't think anyone will even bother trying to overtake him on the track for the rest of the season.... 😂

wearygull20 said:Does anyone actually root for Mark Webber anymore? 🤷

I can't think of a single soul.... poor Webber, nobody seems to care for him...😢

Between that business with Seb and now this situation with Hemić, I honestly don't think anyone will even bother trying to overtake him on the track for the rest of the season.... 😂

Personally, I'd love to see Mark Webber take the championship. It's either him or Fernando Alonso, if you ask me. ☕
Plus, I actually own a watch signed by him! 😬

wearygull20 said:Does anyone actually root for Mark Webber anymore? 🤷

I can't think of a single soul.... poor Webber, nobody seems to care for him...😢

Between that business with Seb and now this situation with Hemić, I honestly don't think anyone will even bother trying to overtake him on the track for the rest of the season.... 😂

Well, hey, the man clearly has backbone—real guts...☕
And because of that, out of the five top contenders, he’s definitely my pick for the championship race. ☕
I mean, it would be different if Kimi Räikkönen were still in the mix...😁

wearygull20 said:Does anyone actually root for Mark Webber anymore? 🤷

I can't think of a single soul.... poor Webber, nobody seems to care for him...😢

Between that business with Seb and now this situation with Hemić, I honestly don't think anyone will even bother trying to overtake him on the track for the rest of the season.... 😂

If I have to pick between Mark Webber and Sebastian Vettel, it's definitely Webber. Out of the other title contenders, Jenson Button is the only one I actually like more than Webber, but as for those other two, I'm not so sure.

Anything but Alonso and Hamilton!

wearygull20 said:Does anyone actually root for Mark Webber anymore? 🤷

I can't think of a single soul.... poor Webber, nobody seems to care for him...😢

Between that business with Seb and now this situation with Hemić, I honestly don't think anyone will even bother trying to overtake him on the track for the rest of the season.... 😂

Yeah, me too. 😍