CheckEmoji Community · the emoji forum
🏠 Home 🆕 What's new ❓ Unanswered 🔥 Popular 📡 RSS Members 👥 0 online log in · register
Home › Sports › Formula 1 › F1: Then vs. Now

F1: Then vs. Now

Started by Amy Brooks · · 👁 7 views · 264 replies

📡 Subscribe to replies

Participants Amy Brooksurbanowl96Jason Campbell70gentlebear47silvercobra68Frank Collins85Amanda Kellystormyviper11ruggedfox28mistybear87Michael Diaz4Jonathan Booth5Rebecca Fox4placidsurfer9Terry Lewis24redheron12Rachel Gray58cosmiccyclist8wearyraven41jadeseal7graniteharbor502darkmarlin16George Ramos15William Bennett53 …
Amy Brooks Amy Brooks MemberOP
11 messages
joined Jun 2010
#1 ·
mistybear87 said:that’s the fix for modern F1—bring back ground effect by stripping the front wing, minimizing the rear, and allowing for some (controlled) ground effect

By ditching the front wing, slimming down the rear, and letting that ground effect breathe🙏🙏🙏

...just bring back the clutch paddles and manual gearboxes, add a whistling turbo😍 and run narrower tires in the front with wider ones in the back, along with a few other "little details."

The Lotus 79 or the McLaren MP 4/4—absolute perfection.😍

Look, improving safety? Absolutely, I’m all for that.

But instead, the FIA bans everything that actually makes racing interesting and replaces it with nonsense like KERS—and if you ask me, that hybrid turbo setup is just more stupidity🙂 on top of all these other incremental tweaks—all while messing around with the chassis design.🤦

Think back to the early 90s: once they added those paddle shifters to Berger's Ferrari and let electronics take over, the soul of the cars just went downhill.
Amy Brooks Amy Brooks MemberOP
11 messages
joined Jun 2010
#2 ·
Take the moment ground effect and side skirts were proven by Lotus
who absolutely dominated the '78 championship, leading nearly every other team to start copying their design...
...well, almost everyone, except for Brabham. They were running those Alfa Romeo 12-cylinder boxer engines,
which had a low center of gravity but were just too wide to accommodate the Lotus tunnel and skirt system,
forcing Brabham to hunt for a different solution—specifically, a propeller mounted on the rear of the car
that ended up producing an incredible effect!

Ignore the people acting confused about this.😁 http://www.youtube.com/v=1d7iR72UVh4

They grabbed a single win right out of the gate, and then the propeller was banned immediately after.😁
Amy Brooks Amy Brooks MemberOP
11 messages
joined Jun 2010
#3 ·
Or take someone like Jean-Pierre Jabouille (correct me if I have his name wrong),
back during that wild era of turbo engines and ground effect aerodynamics, he used to strap his right leg directly to the cockpit above
the throttle just to make sure his foot didn't slip off the pedal when those massive lateral G-forces hit him while flying
through a corner 🙏

It’s these kinds of old-school stories that I actually find fascinating; everything feels a bit flat and indifferent by comparison these days 🤷
urbanowl96 urbanowl96 Member
17 messages
joined Apr 2010
#4 ·
Amy Brooks said:Or take someone like Jean-Pierre Jabouille (correct me if I have his name wrong),
back during that wild era of turbo engines and ground effect aerodynamics, he used to strap his right leg directly to the cockpit above
the throttle just to make sure his foot didn't slip off the pedal when those massive lateral G-forces hit him while flying
through a corner 🙏

It’s these kinds of old-school stories that I actually find fascinating; everything feels a bit flat and indifferent by comparison these days 🤷

It is an interesting point of fact that back in 1982—the final year of ground effect and side skirts—lateral forces in corners reached an incredible 2.2 G.😲 Compared to modern cars, that number seems almost trivial, given they easily pull 4.5 to 5 G now.

Frankly, I suspect that to improve the quality of racing, we ought to simply reintroduce steel brakes to extend stopping distances, along with classic manual gearboxes where driver error can actually manifest itself. Furthermore, engine development should focus on widening the performance gap between individual chassis.

On a technical note, it is actually the diffuser, rather than the external wings, that generates the most turbulent air behind the car; therefore, the planned restrictions on diffuser dimensions for next season will likely prove to be a very wise move.
Jason Campbell70 Jason Campbell70 Veteran
1K messages
joined Jun 2017
#5 ·
urbanowl96 said:It is an interesting point of fact that back in 1982—the final year of ground effect and side skirts—lateral forces in corners reached an incredible 2.2 G.😲 Compared to modern cars, that number seems almost trivial, given they easily pull 4.5 to 5 G now.

Frankly, I suspect that to improve the quality of racing, we ought to simply reintroduce steel brakes to extend stopping distances, along with classic manual gearboxes where driver error can actually manifest itself. Furthermore, engine development should focus on widening the performance gap between individual chassis.

On a technical note, it is actually the diffuser, rather than the external wings, that generates the most turbulent air behind the car; therefore, the planned restrictions on diffuser dimensions for next season will likely prove to be a very wise move.

Oh, not the G- forces again. 😁

urbanowl96 said:It is an interesting point of fact that back in 1982—the final year of ground effect and side skirts—lateral forces in corners reached an incredible 2.2 G.😲 Compared to modern cars, that number seems almost trivial, given they easily pull 4.5 to 5 G now.

Frankly, I suspect that to improve the quality of racing, we ought to simply reintroduce steel brakes to extend stopping distances, along with classic manual gearboxes where driver error can actually manifest itself. Furthermore, engine development should focus on widening the performance gap between individual chassis.

On a technical note, it is actually the diffuser, rather than the external wings, that generates the most turbulent air behind the car; therefore, the planned restrictions on diffuser dimensions for next season will likely prove to be a very wise move.

But that won't change much. It's primarily the tires and the rear wing that generate those massive amounts of turbulent flow (the "dirty air").

Then again, dirty air has the biggest impact on the front—and even the rear—wings.

To truly minimize the effects of "dirty air," shouldn't we simplify the front and rear wings? Right now, they seem far too sensitive to turbulence.
Jason Campbell70 Jason Campbell70 Veteran
1K messages
joined Jun 2017
#6 ·
Regarding the transmission.

It’s semi-automatic—you get those paddle shifters behind the wheel, but you're still responsible for managing the clutch manually when pulling away from a stop.
Amy Brooks Amy Brooks MemberOP
11 messages
joined Jun 2010
#7 ·
urbanowl96 said:It is an interesting point of fact that back in 1982—the final year of ground effect and side skirts—lateral forces in corners reached an incredible 2.2 G.😲 Compared to modern cars, that number seems almost trivial, given they easily pull 4.5 to 5 G now.

Frankly, I suspect that to improve the quality of racing, we ought to simply reintroduce steel brakes to extend stopping distances, along with classic manual gearboxes where driver error can actually manifest itself. Furthermore, engine development should focus on widening the performance gap between individual chassis.

On a technical note, it is actually the diffuser, rather than the external wings, that generates the most turbulent air behind the car; therefore, the planned restrictions on diffuser dimensions for next season will likely prove to be a very wise move.

Since you've brought up engine development, here’s a little bit of history for you,

we all know exactly what McLaren pulled off during the '88 season,
taking 15 wins out of 16 races. 🙏

Lotus was running the exact same Honda turbo that year,
yet the championship ended with McLaren sitting on 199 points compared to
those pathetic 23 points for Lotus. 😁

There were even rumors that people from the Lotus camp actually went over to
convince McLaren that they were using the same engine. 😁

image
Amy Brooks Amy Brooks MemberOP
11 messages
joined Jun 2010
#8 ·
Jason Campbell70 said:Regarding the transmission.

It’s semi-automatic—you get those paddle shifters behind the wheel, but you're still responsible for managing the clutch manually when pulling away from a stop.

Man, stick to the classics—unplugged and manual.👍
gentlebear47 gentlebear47 Member
27 messages
joined Jul 2009
#9 ·
Look, dreaming is all well and good, but let’s be real—nothing ever actually happens.🙄

Honestly? I’d be thrilled if they overhauled the wing regulations enough to actually make these cars follow one another.🤷

Sure, you can't mess with steel brakes because, ya know, safety matters, but since the cars have become basically un-driveable in close quarters, the whole field just stretches out. Instead of racing, we get this endless parade where the fastest guy pulls away and everyone else is just cruising in a line.😢

BTW, this whole obsession with G-forces is driving me absolutely insane. I don't get how F1 engineers even went along with this way of communicating when journalists are pushing it so hard. It’s stuff that should be bothering anyone with even a shred of technical common sense.😠

I’d love to hear someone like Christian Horner or maybe even Adrian Newey sit down and actually explain what a G-force is and what kind of numbers we're actually looking at.🤣
silvercobra68 silvercobra68 Active Member
61 messages
joined Feb 2010
#10 ·
You guys are acting like absolute children. You don't understand anything. Formula 1 is moving forward, not backward. If you want vintage racing, there’s plenty of it—you’ve got the Silverstone classics, the Jim Clark memorial at Hockenheim, the traditional Monza races, or those classic Saturday morning sprints before the 24 Hours of Daytona. Watch those instead of whining about bringing the past back to F1.

But obviously, F1 is something else entirely. F1 is supposed to be cutting-edge technology—the kind of stuff that leaves you breathless when you see it. Just like it was thirty years ago. All those technical solutions you keep mentioning were actually the peak of technology back in their day.

And now, let's finally bust another myth. It isn't true that F1 was "better" back then than it is today. It wasn't better, and it wasn't worse; it was just different. Some things were worse, some were better. Let's break it down;

The 60s
1) Drivers had to drive with massive margins because the cars were fragile, and frankly, because they were terrified. People were dying back then.

2) There were no TV broadcasts and no onboard cameras (unless you count the footage from Frankenheimer’s *Grand Prix* film).

3) On the grid, you had about ten professionals and about ten amateurs—people like Guy Ligier, who was a hockey player, or even more unconventional types like Michael Parkes, who clawed his way into a seat after spending years as a Ferrari engineer.

4) Sometimes those amateurs were actually quite talented, like von Trips or the son of a pharmaceutical tycoon, Joakim Bonnier, who actually managed to snag a couple of Grand Prix wins.

5) The performance gaps between cars were massive. Races would end with only two or three cars in the same lap, while everyone else was two or more laps down. How can you expect any unpredictability? Critics would say the only real uncertainty was whether the Lotus would hold together; if it did, they’d win, if not, it would be a Brabham driver or someone like that—rarely some random guy.

The 70s

1) "Safety" becomes the main topic. After losing about fifty colleagues in the previous decade, drivers started striking, complaining, and boycotting races more frequently.

2) TV coverage still isn't really a thing, or if it is, it's just highlights on Sunday night or sometimes even Monday.

3) Drivers are still driving conservatively, even though wings and slicks made driving much easier. Overtaking happens, but not nearly as much as we imagine. There were a few fun drivers like Peterson or Villeneuve—but honestly, nothing more exciting than Hamilton.

4) The number of wealthy trust-fund kids grows, and some of them even take championships—one before the Nürburgring barbecue era, one after. During the barbecue year, the title goes to none other than a playboy.

The 80s

1) Politics. The war between the FIA and FOCA.

2) After a lull, the "Ecclestone-ization" of the sport begins.

3) A lot of races boil down to fuel management. McLaren dominates in '84 and '85 simply because they are the most efficient, while Brabham struggles. Prost takes his third title. And Piquet gets three too. Hmm... leaves a big question mark over the quality of the drivers.

4) We have TV coverage now. Murray does wonders, which is great, but we don't hear Murray; we hear some guy with a monotonous voice, saying "Piquet first, Prost second..."

So, that's how it was. If there are any more questions, just ask.
Frank Collins85 Frank Collins85 Active Member
80 messages
joined Dec 2007
#11 ·
Alright, so now you want me to channel all that inspiration and give you my take on the '90s too?
Amanda Kelly Amanda Kelly Regular
360 messages
joined Mar 2008
#12 ·
Frank Collins85 said:Alright, so now you want me to channel all that inspiration and give you my take on the '90s too?

silvercobra68 is feeling especially inspired on a Monday morning (if you want to use the terminology some people here prefer). 👍
Don't go rushing him. You can't have fancy whipped cream every single day.
silvercobra68 silvercobra68 Active Member
61 messages
joined Feb 2010
#13 ·
Frank Collins85 said:Alright, so now you want me to channel all that inspiration and give you my take on the '90s too?

Unless you have Alzheimer's, everyone remembers the 90s.

Or if you weren't even born yet, you shouldn't be on this forum—you belong in preschool.
stormyviper11 stormyviper11 Active Member
81 messages
joined Nov 2007
#14 ·
So, honestly, the one big wildcard I’ve been preaching about for years—banning mid-race refueling—is turning out to be a total bust. It’s because these cars have become way too identical in every single way. Even the drivers' styles aren't different enough to make tire wear or specific setups actually matter in the end...

But what really gets under my skin—and hopefully won't last forever—is getting rid of KERS. It was basically the only tech upgrade that actually made modern F1 interesting to watch.
What we actually need is some kind of way to force more diversity in how these cars perform. Like, you want some cars to be absolute rockets at the start, while others are built to dominate the final laps... But man, how do you even pull that off?
One idea is reversing the grid based on qualifying results, but if we did that, people would just game the system. To stop that kind of manipulation, you'd probably have to award championship points for qualifying sessions too...
ruggedfox28 ruggedfox28 Regular
255 messages
joined Aug 2018
#15 ·
stormyviper11 said:So, honestly, the one big wildcard I’ve been preaching about for years—banning mid-race refueling—is turning out to be a total bust. It’s because these cars have become way too identical in every single way. Even the drivers' styles aren't different enough to make tire wear or specific setups actually matter in the end...

But what really gets under my skin—and hopefully won't last forever—is getting rid of KERS. It was basically the only tech upgrade that actually made modern F1 interesting to watch.
What we actually need is some kind of way to force more diversity in how these cars perform. Like, you want some cars to be absolute rockets at the start, while others are built to dominate the final laps... But man, how do you even pull that off?
One idea is reversing the grid based on qualifying results, but if we did that, people would just game the system. To stop that kind of manipulation, you'd probably have to award championship points for qualifying sessions too...

😲

Wait, since when was that even on the table, let alone actually happening?..

😲
stormyviper11 stormyviper11 Active Member
81 messages
joined Nov 2007
#16 ·
Nah. 😁 It’s strictly in the realm of pure fantasy...
Jason Campbell70 Jason Campbell70 Veteran
1K messages
joined Jun 2017
#17 ·
stormyviper11 said:Nah. 😁 It’s strictly in the realm of pure fantasy...

As for qualifying, I always preferred the old format where everyone got a single timed lap (plus the out-lap), and they lined up in reverse order based on the standings—the leader starting at the back.
mistybear87 mistybear87 Regular
406 messages
joined Nov 2010
#18 ·
Jason Campbell70 said:As for qualifying, I always preferred the old format where everyone got a single timed lap (plus the out-lap), and they lined up in reverse order based on the standings—the leader starting at the back.

But why would I prefer that? Perhaps because it measures who can nail a single, flawless lap under pressure, even though we all know anyone can have a momentary lapse in concentration or a sudden spin.

As for the current format, it's perfectly fine as it is; there's really no need to shake things up. There is plenty of action on the track, the full sixty minutes are engaging to watch, and we get more than enough controversy to keep us talking... 😉
Jason Campbell70 Jason Campbell70 Veteran
1K messages
joined Jun 2017
#19 ·
mistybear87 said:But why would I prefer that? Perhaps because it measures who can nail a single, flawless lap under pressure, even though we all know anyone can have a momentary lapse in concentration or a sudden spin.

As for the current format, it's perfectly fine as it is; there's really no need to shake things up. There is plenty of action on the track, the full sixty minutes are engaging to watch, and we get more than enough controversy to keep us talking... 😉

But that’s the point. That lap was supposed to be the fastest, provided everything stayed under control.

One locked wheel and suddenly there's nothing left of the pole.

So you say they look at the full 60 minutes now....
In reality, the whole thing usually settles in a minute or two—sometimes just a few dozen seconds.
mistybear87 mistybear87 Regular
406 messages
joined Nov 2010
#20 ·
Jason Campbell70 said:But that’s the point. That lap was supposed to be the fastest, provided everything stayed under control.

One locked wheel and suddenly there's nothing left of the pole.

So you say they look at the full 60 minutes now....
In reality, the whole thing usually settles in a minute or two—sometimes just a few dozen seconds.

I can say with absolute certainty that 8 out of 10 F1 fans would pick the current qualifying format over "
your version.
Sure, in your scenario, everything hinges on one flawless lap where there's zero room for error. It’s as close to perfection as it gets, but let's be honest: who actually wants to watch drivers churn out perfect laps one after another, where the only possible excitement comes from someone locking a tire? 🤷🤷

You must log in or register to reply here.

Log in Register

🔗 Similar threads