New fan legislation

rapidmaker54 said:Just a quick question here... who actually brings more shame to the country? Is it a group of "hooligans" getting into some random brawl in Prague and setting off flares in the stands, or is it the American ambassador caught smuggling alcohol into a nation where it's strictly prohibited?

And what on earth does sauerkraut have to do with a steam engine?

feralpilot912 said:Ahem... as a lawyer, I find poorly drafted laws regarding hooliganism more frustrating than the actual violence. And if what you're saying about this draft is accurate, then we have a problem here...

Look, I still maintain that hooliganism is an evil that needs to be rooted out. In our current climate, I almost view hooliganism and organized fandom as one and the same. Why? Because within these supporter groups, there’s zero condemnation of the "extremists" or the "thugs." There isn't even a single concrete action taken by the fans themselves against those among them. No internal lines are drawn. No one steps up. My take? There is no difference. They are all the same. There’s no distinction between a "hooligan" and a "fan"... which is why I support any strict sports fan law. Of course, implementation will be a mess. Every time the administration pushes something through, it ends up being a failure.

Honestly, it surprises me that you'd comment on specific laws without even reading them first. If you're going to weigh in, at least do the homework: read the actual law, the first amendment, the government's proposal, and our own suggestions...

Besides, who is claiming that supporter groups haven't distanced themselves from the hooligans? And who is saying those thugs causing all the trouble are actually members of these organized supporter groups?

feralpilot912 said:Ahem... as a lawyer, I find poorly drafted laws regarding hooliganism more frustrating than the actual violence. And if what you're saying about this draft is accurate, then we have a problem here...

Look, I still maintain that hooliganism is an evil that needs to be rooted out. In our current climate, I almost view hooliganism and organized fandom as one and the same. Why? Because within these supporter groups, there’s zero condemnation of the "extremists" or the "thugs." There isn't even a single concrete action taken by the fans themselves against those among them. No internal lines are drawn. No one steps up. My take? There is no difference. They are all the same. There’s no distinction between a "hooligan" and a "fan"... which is why I support any strict sports fan law. Of course, implementation will be a mess. Every time the administration pushes something through, it ends up being a failure.

So, I guess you think they're... I suppose I should say something—if there’s even anything left to be said. osobe:

Some guy who’s just going to go around hitting people with a stick.
So, we have someone who actually witnessed the whole thing—saw that man clearly—and just decided to stay silent? I guess some people just prefer to look the other way, even when they probably should have reported it. Maybe they thought it wasn't their business, or perhaps they were just too busy minding their own business to bother with the authorities. Either way, it’s a bit much, isn't it?

Oh, look at you, Mr. Perfect—honestly, I can only imagine what kind of utopia we’d be living in if the whole world actually operated exactly the way you wanted it to. It would probably be just as tedious as your expectations.

Good grief, it feels like they’re hiring a lawyer on every street corner these days.🙄
Is it just me, or does everyone start screaming at the top of their lungs the second a Black player touches the ball?🤣

feralpilot912 said:Look, people cheer at the stadium. And if they’re sitting in the West Stand at the arena, you can bet your life they’re cursing out the BBB.

Anyway, I'm reading through this PDF and all I see is fans enabling each other: "We're doing great, let injustice fall, this whole conspiracy against the entire fan world won't last forever, it has to end eventually..."

Maybe everyone on these forums isn't a hooligan. There are probably decent kids in here too, but they're so deeply buried in their own echo chambers that it's unbelievable...😕

No offense, but you're the only one here stuck in an echo chamber...

The mods really need to step up and purge posts from losers like feralpilot912 and the rest of those bottom-feeders. Their agenda is so obvious you could see it from a mile away—honestly, if someone with a bit more fire in their gut than me reacts to that kind of garbage, they’re basically handing these creeps an excuse to act like the absolute trash they are. 😁

@spitka You guys need to start a legal defense fund or something. We need to start pushing back through the media—just use the same tactics they use. We need to speak the plain truth and say exactly what everyone else is thinking without feeling guilty about it.
Money matters here, too, because we can actually win this fight—after all, the US is supposed to be a nation of laws where things are meant to function correctly.

Keep your head up and stay sharp!

Unfortunately, I have to point out a few things...
Look, regular citizens just don't see eye to eye with us—in fact, there's a huge mass of people who view us through the lens of certain low-life lawyers, and honestly, winning back their trust is going to be an uphill battle. At this point, our only recourse is the court (though I won't pretend we have much of a shot there; it’ll be a win if even one of the points we proposed yesterday gets acknowledged)...
Initially, I thought hitting the streets—protesting before Congress, the administration, or the President—would be a smart move. But it recently dawned on me that while such a move is certainly bold, it isn't necessarily wise... Unfortunately, it seems to me that even Memphis didn't resonate quite the way we expected; that is, regular people (or perhaps just Memphians) haven't changed their opinion of us after everything that happened... So why would they—whether it's the government or Congress—change their minds after protests of this nature?
An even stupider idea would be to stop showing up to games altogether, because then the administration, Congress, and the general public (who, believe me, are the most important factor) would all be thrilled...
Tell me, which major group of people actually cares about an empty stadium? Who is complaining that there aren't 1,000 people at the LA Galaxy match, or even fewer at the smaller venues? Who?? (Unless, perhaps, it's some shady businessman upset because his kickback wasn't paid)
I mean, seriously, who is the person—and he isn't the only one, though he writes a lot while the media remains the primary force in shaping or reshaping the truth—who would claim to be a die-hard fan yet claims to hate the Black Knights? In Washington, D.C., it seems like an even bigger joke to me...

Another thing I have to mention is that, for the most part, we are the ones to blame...
Just a few years ago, the debates were about which group of fans was better, who showed up more to certain matches, or who put on a better display. Compare that to today, when those kinds of clashes—whether here or in society at large—have dwindled to a minimum. It's become obvious that nowadays, everyone is looking at only one thing... and we all know what that is!
The core of the problem is this massive need to prove ourselves, and that "proving ourselves" has essentially boiled down to one single thing... again, we all know what!

It feels incredibly illogical to me—considering our scene was relatively peaceful until about a year and a half ago—that we, the fans, are currently engaging in "nonsense" more frequently than we have in the last ten years, right at the exact moment the worst possible sports fan law is being drafted against us. And then comes the inevitable line: "There are only 200 or 300 hooligans; the rest are just fans." I have to say, we are hypocritical in this regard, behaving much more like the very journalists we so often love to tear down for having those exact same traits!

Of course, these kinds of laws shouldn't be accepted; we have to do everything possible to ensure as many items from our list of demands are met. But if the outcome isn't what we want, let's keep in mind that we bear most of the responsibility!

The question is: are we actually thugs, or is that just how they want to portray us? In my view, without any sugarcoating, I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle!
English fans have accepted the label of "thugs," and I hope we don't follow suit, but we'll have to wait and see how much impact this actually has! (Hopefully, not much)

Our problem is that we justify our own negative actions by pointing to every possible rotten thing happening around us (of which there are plenty, naturally), and the reality is that WE end up looking like the biggest problem in the country...
But is that a valid excuse? "Arrest the thief first, then come for me"? To me, it doesn't seem like a valid excuse, and it shouldn't be!

Realistically, we aren't the biggest problem, but we create issues that are easier to solve than something like the shipyard crisis. And when it comes to that, we can sing all the fighting songs we want, but unfortunately, we will always be the first ones in line to take the heat!

There is another major issue: I am not some armchair lawyer who finds the whole fan situation completely foreign, using some random news site as a primary source of opinion and information!

Hit me up via PM!😉

Honestly, people like feralpilot912 are exactly who we need to win over if we actually want to make an impact. We have to convince folks that they can show up to the game without any issues, that they can start attending regularly and see for themselves that the problems people worry about only happen in a tiny fraction of matches. Look, feralpilot912 is a joke—he’s a total poser, talking nonsense, and frankly, he's a complete idiot. I could write five hundred more insults right now, but it all boils down to this: he isn't a real fan. We’ve basically proven ourselves to be a bunch of fools just by arguing with him. Of course, it's tough on a forum like this since there are plenty of trolls even worse than him. But throwing insults doesn't achieve anything. Even if someone comes in with a totally misguided view—like how feralpilot912 tries to argue with anyone holding a legitimate opinion that the fan movement should just be shut down—calling him a moron won't change his mind or make him smarter. And even when people insult us, we don't need to hit back. Let's show that we aren't like the rest of this miserable country. If someone else jumps in or if he keeps going, please, don't resort to insults. We have actual arguments. We aren't politicians selling smoke and mirrors; we are defending our way of life.
Also, I was wondering if he or someone else could re-upload what spitka posted earlier? I want to look over those critiques of the sports fan law again because that link isn't working anymore. Thanks.

Hey man, this is what we presented at Congress today, and a similar version was shared with reporters yesterday:

http://rapidshare.com/files/19021172...jedbe.doc.html

I'm ASKING if anyone with a premium account—or just someone who knows a better way to grab this—could download it and re-upload it. The links on this site expire after only ten downloads.

BTW: It looks like the sports fan law is being fast-tracked through an emergency procedure... 😳

Look, feralpilot912, I’m asking you as a lawyer here, and please, I’m begging you, answer every single point:
1. As a legal professional, does it sit right with you that carrying an illegal handgun might just get you a misdemeanor, yet if they find you with a flare under this proposed sports fan law, you face criminal charges plus a ban for a set period?
2. Does it bother your legal sensibilities that this violates the presumption of innocence? I mean, even if nothing is proven against you and there’s no final conviction, you get slapped with a ban—say, for a year—during which you have to report in constantly, telling them where you’ll be every time your club plays, while the police show up at your house, work, school, or campus... and these kinds of measures aren't applied to any other criminals or even misdemeanor offenders, even if they’ve been fully convicted.
3. Does it bother you (under this new proposal) that if minors are caught with a beer outside the stadium or hit a blood alcohol level of 0.02, their school and principal get notified? Especially since we actually have laws on the protection of juvenile identity.
4. Does it bother you, naturally, as a lawyer, that this law contains an unwritten rule of collective punishment—something American law doesn't recognize? Take what happened in Bjelopolj, for example... all those guys from the Black Knights who were attacked while under police protection—half of whom weren't even fighting, they were just defending themselves—they all got two-year injunctions! Why? Simply because they were there. So, tell me, dear feralpilot912, if I were to go to San Diego with a buddy from the BBB—let's say he talked me into it—and we got jumped, and everyone in the van got hit with injunctions... would this law stop bothering you then?!
There’s plenty more, but I think you already get the gist of how the current law looks versus this "new" proposal.

If you truly are a lawyer, your answer to all four points has to be YES...
I mean, shouldn't you, as a lawyer, be fighting against passing laws that are unconstitutional and restrict human rights and freedoms, regardless of what you personally think about those fans?? Isn't that the whole point of being a defense attorney—that every person has their rights and everyone deserves a fair defense?

Okay, so you don't like fans—fine, everyone is entitled to their opinion. But your title and your knowledge of the law and the legal order should rise above your personal animosity toward them. In this case, you really ought to stand (at least declaratively) shoulder-to-shoulder with them/us!
So, feralpilot912, I expect an answer! Thanks!!

P.S. Benjamin Smith21 (hope you don't mind the shorthand🙂) wrote that "us against the world" slogan, but that doesn't fly anymore. This is politics now—and politics is nothing more than compromise. And that compromise has to involve giving up certain things... specifically the visible stuff that sticks out most to the average citizen, like throwing flares on the field and ZDS... There isn't much room left to maneuver; certain things just have to be accepted. Damn it—without support from the general public (at least a portion of it), it will be hard, almost impossible, to fight for anything. And that support can only be won through reasonable behavior, so we shouldn't give those "moral guardians" any ammunition to call us out or attack us during this time!
Because, as spitka said: It's now or never!! It simply has to be NOW!!!

Best regards!👍

http://www.mediafire.com/file/y02wn3..._primjedbe.doc

If feralpilot912 really is a lawyer, then I completely understand how they even thought this sports fan law was a good idea to push through.

It isn't just unconstitutional; it actually has elements of fascism in it.

Most likely, feralpilot912 is some liberal-leaning socialist who gets triggered when a fan shouts a slur, yet this same lawyer has zero issues with the fact that we might be detained just for wearing a hoodie. I guess that’s just the democratic way, right?

It is sad how much the media has brainwashed the average person in this country. Our "lawyer" feralpilot912 keeps listing instances of police being assaulted and similar nonsense, as if those things happen on a daily basis.

The same "lawyer" doesn't seem to mind that the police aren't allowed to step into certain local clubs where organized crime gathers.

Feralpilot912, your freedom shouldn't start by stripping ours away, especially since the whole "fan problem" is being artificially manufactured by the media anyway.

A few people here said it right, and even our esteemed "lawyer" agreed when he noted that our image is terrible. We need to work on that, because if the public thinks like this "lawyer," we won't achieve anything. We have to focus on our image and how we are presented in the media.

Thomas, for one of the upcoming conferences or shows or whatever, you should take this to the level of absurdity, because that's exactly what this law is:

For instance, regarding the rule about flares, you could pull data on injuries caused by flares at stadiums and counter it with data on injuries caused by firecrackers during the Christmas holiday.

We need to push the logic to its extreme to make the issue relatable to regular people. I spent half an hour at work today arguing with a fool who concluded "they deserve it." After thirty minutes, he completely changed his mind. It just goes to show that you can win people over, but there will always be fools among us—that's just a fact we can't run from.

It would be interesting to see a protest in Washington, D.C., where people wear yellow stars on their sleeves, because what they are trying to pass is nothing short of fascism.

Guys, keep your heads on straight. Don't get into arguments, don't make threats, and don't insult people on this forum, because that only plays right into their hands.😉

amberfox6 said:Look, feralpilot912, I’m asking you as a lawyer here, and please, I’m begging you, answer every single point:
1. As a legal professional, does it sit right with you that carrying an illegal handgun might just get you a misdemeanor, yet if they find you with a flare under this proposed sports fan law, you face criminal charges plus a ban for a set period?
2. Does it bother your legal sensibilities that this violates the presumption of innocence? I mean, even if nothing is proven against you and there’s no final conviction, you get slapped with a ban—say, for a year—during which you have to report in constantly, telling them where you’ll be every time your club plays, while the police show up at your house, work, school, or campus... and these kinds of measures aren't applied to any other criminals or even misdemeanor offenders, even if they’ve been fully convicted.
3. Does it bother you (under this new proposal) that if minors are caught with a beer outside the stadium or hit a blood alcohol level of 0.02, their school and principal get notified? Especially since we actually have laws on the protection of juvenile identity.
4. Does it bother you, naturally, as a lawyer, that this law contains an unwritten rule of collective punishment—something American law doesn't recognize? Take what happened in Bjelopolj, for example... all those guys from the Black Knights who were attacked while under police protection—half of whom weren't even fighting, they were just defending themselves—they all got two-year injunctions! Why? Simply because they were there. So, tell me, dear feralpilot912, if I were to go to San Diego with a buddy from the BBB—let's say he talked me into it—and we got jumped, and everyone in the van got hit with injunctions... would this law stop bothering you then?!
There’s plenty more, but I think you already get the gist of how the current law looks versus this "new" proposal.

If you truly are a lawyer, your answer to all four points has to be YES...
I mean, shouldn't you, as a lawyer, be fighting against passing laws that are unconstitutional and restrict human rights and freedoms, regardless of what you personally think about those fans?? Isn't that the whole point of being a defense attorney—that every person has their rights and everyone deserves a fair defense?

Okay, so you don't like fans—fine, everyone is entitled to their opinion. But your title and your knowledge of the law and the legal order should rise above your personal animosity toward them. In this case, you really ought to stand (at least declaratively) shoulder-to-shoulder with them/us!
So, feralpilot912, I expect an answer! Thanks!!

P.S. Benjamin Smith21 (hope you don't mind the shorthand🙂) wrote that "us against the world" slogan, but that doesn't fly anymore. This is politics now—and politics is nothing more than compromise. And that compromise has to involve giving up certain things... specifically the visible stuff that sticks out most to the average citizen, like throwing flares on the field and ZDS... There isn't much room left to maneuver; certain things just have to be accepted. Damn it—without support from the general public (at least a portion of it), it will be hard, almost impossible, to fight for anything. And that support can only be won through reasonable behavior, so we shouldn't give those "moral guardians" any ammunition to call us out or attack us during this time!
Because, as spitka said: It's now or never!! It simply has to be NOW!!!

Best regards!👍

The rest of the post is pure truth. Now, I'm no lawyer, so I won't mess with the legal technicalities, but I've offered a few suggestions based on nearly 20 years of following LA Galaxy and the national team. Plus, I've got two college degrees under my belt, so I think I know enough to talk about this kind of stuff. Regarding the shorthand, no big deal. Honestly, it's way easier to use an abbreviation than to type out a full name every single time, but fine 😁 Anyway, the real issue here is public image. It’s not about abandoning our ideals; it’s about better presentation. If I recall correctly, Spitka should know a thing or two about how to sell something to people, and that process needs to start with the derby, and even before that—during preseason and specifically regarding how our side handled the match in Salzburg. There was a post on Index today saying the BBB support against the Canadians was fantastic, and that’s how we need to keep it going. Basically, we need to avoid unnecessary conflicts, calm the passions down, and bite our tongues. During the derby, we shouldn't be chanting things like "hit the Mexican" or other controversial slogans that people have been using lately just to be defiant. We need to present ourselves in a way that actually changes people's minds. It’ll be tough, but it’s the only way we survive in this exact, messy form we’re in right now. In fact, with the changes I suggested and the feedback from the coordination critics, we actually ended up with a better sports fan law that would definitely reduce so-called stadium violence while making many things that were previously banned perfectly legal. Beyond that, we only have one option left: keep telling the same old story like a broken record for another 3 or 4 years, and then it's goodbye, and someone else takes over the stands.

Daniel Carter9 said:If feralpilot912 really is a lawyer, then I completely understand how they even thought this sports fan law was a good idea to push through.

It isn't just unconstitutional; it actually has elements of fascism in it.

Most likely, feralpilot912 is some liberal-leaning socialist who gets triggered when a fan shouts a slur, yet this same lawyer has zero issues with the fact that we might be detained just for wearing a hoodie. I guess that’s just the democratic way, right?

It is sad how much the media has brainwashed the average person in this country. Our "lawyer" feralpilot912 keeps listing instances of police being assaulted and similar nonsense, as if those things happen on a daily basis.

The same "lawyer" doesn't seem to mind that the police aren't allowed to step into certain local clubs where organized crime gathers.

Feralpilot912, your freedom shouldn't start by stripping ours away, especially since the whole "fan problem" is being artificially manufactured by the media anyway.

A few people here said it right, and even our esteemed "lawyer" agreed when he noted that our image is terrible. We need to work on that, because if the public thinks like this "lawyer," we won't achieve anything. We have to focus on our image and how we are presented in the media.

Thomas, for one of the upcoming conferences or shows or whatever, you should take this to the level of absurdity, because that's exactly what this law is:

For instance, regarding the rule about flares, you could pull data on injuries caused by flares at stadiums and counter it with data on injuries caused by firecrackers during the Christmas holiday.

We need to push the logic to its extreme to make the issue relatable to regular people. I spent half an hour at work today arguing with a fool who concluded "they deserve it." After thirty minutes, he completely changed his mind. It just goes to show that you can win people over, but there will always be fools among us—that's just a fact we can't run from.

It would be interesting to see a protest in Washington, D.C., where people wear yellow stars on their sleeves, because what they are trying to pass is nothing short of fascism.

Guys, keep your heads on straight. Don't get into arguments, don't make threats, and don't insult people on this forum, because that only plays right into their hands.😉

Not exactly stars, though. If we did that, a huge crowd would turn against neo-Nazi fans immediately, seeing it as mocking Holocaust victims. It should be something in that vein, maybe using an "N" as a fan symbol, under a slogan like "Marked because I love my club" or something similar. Also, like I mentioned before, we need to present parallel data. We should show how many injuries actually come from flares versus how many come from firecrackers during the Christmas holiday. Compare how many people get hurt due to alcohol consumption in the stands versus out on the street, or how many lives are lost in fan clashes compared to organized crime hits. NO, don't base the whole argument on that, though. The core focus must be the unconstitutionality of the law. Look, we aren't saints, but bad behavior shouldn't be justified by someone else's even worse behavior. Instead, we need to point out that while the goal is to go after those imaginary 300 hooligans, regular fans shouldn't be punished or have their movement and freedom restricted without any actual convictions.

So, it looks like the guy who struck that kid over in Mobile, AL ended up getting just a month behind bars... (though, if you believe one particular individual's comments to the press, he didn't actually hit the child at all—yet the authorities decided to label it as aggravated assault)

And so it begins!

So, what’s the typical sentence for a physical assault these days? I'm not trying to stir the pot, just asking because I honestly don't know...

Personally, I don't see this as an injustice. From what I gather, we're talking about someone jumping a guy who was much weaker and completely alone. Instead of making excuses for senseless violence, we should be focusing on the actual injustices being pushed through these new sports fan laws—like those massive fines for lighting a flare, having passports confiscated, or getting detained just for holding a beer. We shouldn't be justifying random acts of aggression..

That's just my take on it, anyway. I'm basing this on what I've read about the situation, since I wasn't there to see it firsthand...

shadowgardener10 said:So, what’s the typical sentence for a physical assault these days? I'm not trying to stir the pot, just asking because I honestly don't know...

Personally, I don't see this as an injustice. From what I gather, we're talking about someone jumping a guy who was much weaker and completely alone. Instead of making excuses for senseless violence, we should be focusing on the actual injustices being pushed through these new sports fan laws—like those massive fines for lighting a flare, having passports confiscated, or getting detained just for holding a beer. We shouldn't be justifying random acts of aggression..

That's just my take on it, anyway. I'm basing this on what I've read about the situation, since I wasn't there to see it firsthand...

I was there firsthand, so I know exactly what happened...

So, what’s the actual deal with the court in Brussels? I mean, if they actually won a lawsuit against the government there, how quickly would they be forced to change the sports fan laws... (asking seriously here, because I really don't know the specifics).
Because, honestly, it seems like that might be the only way. The law has already been passed from the administration to Congress, and I find it hard to believe our government would just admit they messed up and say, "Oops, we passed an unconstitutional law, our bad." And I find it even less likely that Congress wouldn't just vote it through anyway.
In my opinion, people should just pool their money together and take this straight to court.

hiddennomad42 said:I was there firsthand, so I know exactly what happened...

This sounds like something you'd read in an obituary...
How the hell could he not have been at school!
Everyone needs to get their head in the game.

Anonymous said:This sounds like something you'd read in an obituary...
How the hell could he not have been at school!
Everyone needs to get their head in the game.

I didn't quite follow you there.
but regardless, that isn't what this conversation is about, and it certainly doesn't belong on the internet.