New fan legislation

rustypanther said:...and not a single thread has been locked😁

I'll lock them all myself if I have to. 😁 Forgot.

Someone will probably unlock them later anyway.

Anyway, anyone got any press conference updates or what?

Here are our specific notes regarding the law:

law : http://dropbox.com/files/18967943...jedbe.doc.html

Can someone with a premium account re-upload this to Dropbox and drop the link here?

I just finished reading through all of this, and honestly, I have to say—it’s incredibly well-written. More importantly, the arguments are absolutely undeniable.
-Now, I’m just wondering how much they’re actually going to tune out these suggestions.

Can someone please just upload these suggestions and drop a new link? I want the rest of the crew to be able to see them too... 🙂

Hands down, the best article yet:

Great presentation from Bauer and the crew... they even managed to land a headline on national TV about "Fans filing a lawsuit?"👍

Everyone needs to be aware of this...

United We Stand 🙂

🙏🙏 👍🙂

United We Stand X2

Alright, look, I know I’m jumping into this like some guy with a parachute without checking his gear first, but bear with me here.
I truly believe that next time there's a real chance to give Stimac and his whole crew a piece of our minds, we should take it. ☕
Just for context, this footage was captured back when the fan law was actually still being enforced. ☕

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uk5ZvQJgGMc

I just hope I've managed to be of some small help here. 🙂

So, watching the news and various journals today... they're showing clips from the fans' press conference, with background footage of Malta, flares being thrown onto the pitch, etc. They're saying the fans are fighting against the ban on drinking alcohol. A total disaster.

As if all that incredible atmosphere and those choreographies at Miami, Washington, D.C., or when cheering on the national team outside of America are just forgotten. It’s a catastrophe. There are zero clips of police brutality, and how can you expect public support after an average, half-idiotic, capitalism-manipulated American sees footage like that? It makes the struggle hard for the guys who stepped up publicly, and for everyone else too. Furthermore, I honestly think some things have gone too far. These thugs and the younger generations stepping up in the stands now are overwhelmed by violence; there's very little true fan spirit left. Everyone tries to act like some big-time hooligan. I don't blame them—they need to find their footing and prove themselves in this damn world—but it requires a lot of work in the stands because things can't go on like this. Back in the day, during the old era, certain events were expected and would have seemed normal on both sides, but this is a different time. Anyone expecting to hop on a train to an away game today and fight or light flares in every town is either crazy or stupid. I think there needs to be a lot of work within the stands, and the policies of certain groups need to change drastically. The era of fighting for a nation and the era of street thugs is over. (What really irritates me is this exact system and the powers that be. Fans used to be something citizens took pride in; the elites used to encourage them, but now it turns out fans are seen as a bigger evil than any corruption or war profiteering... though we have to admit fans are partly responsible for that.) New times, new rules, but even in this new era and under these new norms, one still needs to stand up and fight for their rights.

Up until now, any individual struggle for rights has been quickly crushed. Some got lucky and actually won against the system, but those people are rare. What I want to say is that I'm glad this has finally come to light; it's more concrete than just messages from the stands. Like I said before, in these new times, many in the US have just sat there and taken it.

BTW, this is a shining example of the struggle for human freedom in this disgusting, modern era of ruthless capitalism and repressive dictatorship, where the elite and money try to destroy freedom of speech, movement, and ultimately attempt to extinguish what little human dignity remains, turning people into mere numbers.

I would add in continuation of the message / and American society...

p.s. The fact is, fans have done plenty of stupid things themselves, but if second chances can be given to rapists, addicts, or basically any kind of criminal, then surely they can be given to fans too...🤷 or am I wrong? Maybe we've reached a point where a flare on the pitch or a scuffle has become a bigger crime than actual criminal acts?

Quote : New Blue Power said:

Truly impressive. This clip from the news site is short, but those few minutes provided a satisfying look at some of the more unserious individuals pushing this ridiculous fan law. Well done, Professor. Despite the attempts by certain outlets to include sketches meant to discredit the message, nothing has brightened my day quite like this. United We Stand.👍

First off, massive props to spitka. I’m really glad to see people thinking along the same lines as me and realizing he’s truly the best person in our fan scene to handle this kind of stuff. Since I didn't catch the previous posts, could someone please upload the feedback on the fan law? I can't download anything from that link anymore. Also, just purely for my own info, could someone clarify which specific supporter groups are part of that coordination? I haven't been following that specific detail closely.
Now, regarding the law itself. I’m one of those guys who actually served a so-called "ban" during that first big wave of bans being handed out, and I did my time. Because of that, I’ve had zero issues at my job over the last eight years; people knew exactly who I was—a dedicated professional who does great work, but also happens to go to games. I never tried to hide it, and that honesty paid off. My workplace set things up so I could still handle all my international business and maintain my usual contacts; that famous ban didn't touch my career. In the eyes of my colleagues, I didn't become some hooligan or anything like that, unlike many others. On the flip side, these bans cause a ton of headaches even today, especially for those of us who were in the first group. We used to follow everything online and constantly nag the club whenever there was a game to report them to the police. Later, we coordinated, and things got easier. It was a bit of a mess with away games for a week, but overall, I survived that ban much better than I expected. It's worth noting, though, that I wasn't one of those who got banned without a court ruling; I was just being an idiot for my age and got caught on camera. You learn from your mistakes.
Basically, I want to express my full support for everything being done regarding this law. We all see where soccer and the fan scene have headed in Western Europe, and we see the direction things are taking in Central Europe—and how it looks here, stuck in that eternal "small-town mentality" mindset common in the Southeast. Trying to push the same old "us against the world" narrative won't achieve anything. This is now a matter of politics, and politics is the art of negotiation and persuasion. That’s why I’m happy to see proposals being put forward that can actually be accepted—real solutions rather than just shouting, "we're against this law." For starters, take the issue that got me punished: flares. If there were a proper police database, they could check how many people have actually been injured or killed by flares, strobes, smoke, or other non-explosive pyrotechnics. I don't even need to write it here because we all know nothing significant has happened, which is exactly why I think stadiums shouldn't ban these items. Instead, the proposal should focus on either allowing them or, if that’s not possible, drastically reducing the penalties and making it impossible to issue a ban just for bringing and using them. On the other hand, we should drastically increase penalties for throwing pyrotechnics onto the pitch or using explosive devices. Speaking of which, I’ve been against explosive pyrotechnics for years; they don't add to the atmosphere, and they're dangerous compared to the stuff I mentioned before. I’m not talking about firecrackers—though I’m against those too—but the heavy artillery we call "cannons." In my opinion, it’s a miracle there haven't been more serious injuries, because anyone who has been near them knows what a powerful "weapon" they are. If you don't believe me, just remember that advertising board that got blown apart near the pitch at the stadium in Miami, or that firefighter who nearly lost half his hand after one exploded right in his grip during a massive derby in Washington, D.C.
Additionally, since most fan sections already have cameras, we should ensure coverage extends to other areas like hallways and corridors. Or, the law should mandate that police stations and interrogation areas within the stadium must be under constant video surveillance. We all know what goes on in those spots and how police sometimes interrogate people in ways that make it impossible for them to prove misconduct later. The police have massive authority that is often abused, and the only way to put an end to that is through strict oversight.
Regarding the whole passport seizure thing, I think the initial logic about mobsters using them to flee is sound, but you can't hammer that point home too hard. If you keep bringing it up, you're just going to trigger that tired old cliché that drives non-fans absolutely nuts—the idea that the government has a million real problems to deal with but chooses to focus entirely on sports fans. We all know how massive sports are here in the States, and we know how much regular supporters—the true fans—hate it when games get interrupted by flares, pitch invasions, or fights. The issue is the mindset of people who mostly watch everything from their couches and never actually show up to a game. Because they aren't there, they don't see the reality of things; they end up approving stuff like armored vehicles with water cannons meant to fight hooligans, even though if I recall correctly, the last time I saw anything like that used was back in the early 2000s during a serious incident at a stadium in Miami. This isn't just about football, either; it applies to all sports. It honestly fascinates me to see half-empty arenas during major championship finals in cities where water polo is basically the only thing anyone cares about. Now, you can't go as radical with passport seizures as they do in England. If I remember right, the UK has a whole stack of laws that prevent certain criminals from leaving the country, and those were established long before the fan law. The option to seize a passport should definitely exist, and it shouldn't be limited to just the fan law—it should be part of broader legislation too. But when we talk specifically about this law, it should target those who repeatedly violate its most serious provisions. And that brings me to my next point.
The offenses under this law really need to be categorized by severity. It’s completely absurd to have someone face a ban just because they had a tiny bit of alcohol in their system over the limit, or if they were caught in a brawl where they smashed up half a grandstand and took down five cops—I'm exaggerating, but you get the gist. We need to scale these offenses into three, four, or maybe five different levels of severity. Going back to the passports: then, for people who repeatedly violate level 4 or 5 offenses (the heavy stuff), the government could temporarily revoke their travel privileges specifically when their clubs or national teams are playing overseas. By grading the crimes this way, you create a clear distinction. Someone who commits a level 1 or 2 offense wouldn't even end up in the police database, which prevents a guy who just had one too many beers from being flagged as a criminal when he's never actually caused trouble at a match.
As for the rules about covering faces, that regulation is totally nonsensical. It gets to a point where a fan can't even wear a scarf without running into issues, not to mention flags or banners, since those could all technically be used to hide an identity. Or, if we use the slang term for those specific types of fans, things like face paint or those popular Spider-Man masks would be banned. It's pointless. Anyone actually looking to cause chaos at a stadium is going to find a way to mask themselves regardless; they'll just pull up a hood, tie a shirt around their face, or simply zip up a North Face jacket and pull the collar over their eyes. There are a million ways to do it. The people the law is actually targeting will always find a loophole, while the regular fans—the ones who just want to wrap a scarf around their face because the smoke from a flare is bothering them or because it's freezing cold during a game against a team like the Spartans—are the ones who will suffer.
I've written quite a bit already, but I haven't even hit the most important part of the law yet: the bans. First off, no ban should be issued before a final court verdict is reached. We've seen hundreds of people caught in the wrong place at the wrong time, having no clue what happened two or ten minutes prior, or even being nowhere near the actual incident (like that case out in San Diego), yet they still face preventative measures. Without a trial, let alone a conviction, these people are stripped of a normal life for things they haven't even been proven to do. That flies right in the face of the US Constitution, which states a person is innocent until proven guilty. I know the exact article isn't coming to mind right now, but I'll look it up; I know my rights. On the other hand, the way bans are enforced needs to change because nowhere else in the world is it handled as radically as it is here in America. Having police check people at their homes and forcing them to stay in one spot for six hours is incredibly harsh. My suggestion? Scrap that. Instead, implement much heavier, more drastic penalties for anyone caught at the stadium (or within a 200-yard radius) or involved in a fan clash while under a ban. That would normalize life for people under these restrictions while achieving the same goal. If the penalty was, say, two or three months in jail, I doubt anyone would risk it, but they could live their lives normally outside of those two hours before and after their club's match.

...At the end of the day, you really need the public on your side, as crazy as that sounds. We all know how the media works; they’ll sell the story of 20 arrested fans way faster than they’ll ever sell the sight of 20 flags waving in the stands. I actually went through the trouble of pulling some headlines from a major news outlet regarding fans: "Two Real Madrid fans held in custody for a month", "BBB radicals ready to destroy the club", "14 Bad Boys detained in Mostar", "24 Torcida and Bad Boys fans taken in for questioning", "Torcida and Tornado clash with BBB at the entrance to Višnjik", "Young Miami residents pelt Real Madrid bus with stones in San Diego", "Hooligans cause chaos traveling through Italy" and so on. It’s all about sensation, and let's be honest, America isn't any different in that regard. However, we should try to dial down the tension while this fan law is being worked on, even though personally, I think fighting it before a massive derby like this is a bit of a Sisyphean task. What I mean is, starting from friendlies, moving through the big derby, and lasting until the end of the season, we should try to avoid unnecessary nonsense like what happened in Kapfenberg or Herzegovina, or even the slightly less avoidable stuff like Metković or the mess at Višnjik. Also, regarding the derby—maybe I’m just an idealist—but since we sat at the same table today, why not? We could put up banners from both sides that aren't insulting or mocking, but more like, "Don't ban this atmosphere." We all know how insane it’s going to be. At the same time, we should try to make sure all the flares stay in the stands and don't end up flying onto the turf or the track. Essentially, we need to show that if people actually listened to us regarding the law, things would go much smoother. Nobody is going to take us seriously when D. S. couldn't even convince anyone that the boys truly don't want senseless hooliganism, especially after the papers caught them in a Jeep in Prague three days later. We can't expect empathy or support if the match gets halted ten minutes in because twenty flares were thrown, or if a fight breaks out in the stands, or if a player gets hit. I know tensions are peaking and things will be overwhelming by February 22nd, but think about it: "Yeah, this is a huge derby, but is it more important to smash a bus window with the Bad Boys or set a seat on fire at the stadium, or is it more important to hold back to save the fan movement in America?" This isn't being pathetic. I'm not suggesting we just sit there quietly; I mean limiting ourselves to flares and thunderous chanting. There's going to be a Torcida choreography, and I'm expecting something spectacular. If the derby is handled at a level that satisfies both regular people and politicians, we'll get massive support immediately. A few positive headlines and we'll be in a great position.
So, I wrote this long post and laid out a few suggestions. I'd really like spitka to read this, along with Valsimot and the other influential folks on this forum. I know it's long, but when we're debating something this important, I could write for seven days straight. I hope this contributes my ideas somehow, because as I said, everything comes down to cooperation, acceptance, and proposing ideas. That's basically what politics is.

Benjamin Smith21, I have to hand it to you on this one... here is my humble little suggestion... why don't we just start a dedicated thread where people can dump all their photos, video clips, and whatever else they've got? I’m talking about shots of Grgic waving a torch, Mamic holding a beer in the stands, or even footage of police brutality... let's just put everything into one single massive topic, for God's sake, so people can actually see what's going on. A picture is worth a thousand words, after all.🙂

We need to fight this using every repressive tool at our disposal. I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again: if we need to revoke passports, then let them be revoked. If we need to harass anyone convicted of hooliganism by forcing them to check in at police stations or making them watch games from there—so be it. If there is any way to make it difficult for a hooligan to attend a match or support their club or the national team, I am all for it.

There are far too many idiots in the stands who jeopardize everyone's safety and bring shame to the club, the city, and the entire country. Let those fan groups purge themselves. If the fans won't do it themselves—and we all know they won't—then the state should use other means to handle it.

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As for the claim that this is stripping away or limiting constitutional rights—well, it simply isn't. Freedoms and rights can be restricted by law to protect the freedoms and rights of others, the legal order, public morality, and public health. Any limitation of freedom or rights must be proportionate to the necessity of the restriction in each specific case (Article 16 of the Constitution). If you aren't allowed into a two-hour game because you were brawling or causing chaos at a previous match, I'd say that is perfectly proportionate to the situation.

If you've been in jail for hooliganism at matches, or even multiple times, why shouldn't they take your passport so you can't go on an away trip, say, to Italy? WTF? Either behave or deal with the consequences.

feralpilot912 said:We need to fight this using every repressive tool at our disposal. I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again: if we need to revoke passports, then let them be revoked. If we need to harass anyone convicted of hooliganism by forcing them to check in at police stations or making them watch games from there—so be it. If there is any way to make it difficult for a hooligan to attend a match or support their club or the national team, I am all for it.

There are far too many idiots in the stands who jeopardize everyone's safety and bring shame to the club, the city, and the entire country. Let those fan groups purge themselves. If the fans won't do it themselves—and we all know they won't—then the state should use other means to handle it.

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As for the claim that this is stripping away or limiting constitutional rights—well, it simply isn't. Freedoms and rights can be restricted by law to protect the freedoms and rights of others, the legal order, public morality, and public health. Any limitation of freedom or rights must be proportionate to the necessity of the restriction in each specific case (Article 16 of the Constitution). If you aren't allowed into a two-hour game because you were brawling or causing chaos at a previous match, I'd say that is perfectly proportionate to the situation.

If you've been in jail for hooliganism at matches, or even multiple times, why shouldn't they take your passport so you can't go on an away trip, say, to Italy? WTF? Either behave or deal with the consequences.

The real issue here is that they are banning people from attending games who haven't even been convicted of a misdemeanor yet, let alone a crime, simply because an investigation is still ongoing...
To put it bluntly... it's like a cop pulling you over and revoking your driver's license just because he thinks you blew through a light, without even knowing if it was red or green.

rapidmaker54 said:The real issue here is that they are banning people from attending games who haven't even been convicted of a misdemeanor yet, let alone a crime, simply because an investigation is still ongoing...
To put it bluntly... it's like a cop pulling you over and revoking your driver's license just because he thinks you blew through a light, without even knowing if it was red or green.

Well, I guess he can keep making analogies, but he probably won't get it until he experiences it firsthand. And honestly, to really see that the stands aren't filled with as much chaos or crazy people as our politicians and news columns make it sound like, he’d have to actually get up from his armchair where all the experts sit and go to a few actual games at the stadium.☕

But he won't go. Right now, he'll blame the hooligans, then tomorrow he'll blame the stadium when the hooligans are gone, and the day after that, once the stadium is fine, he'll probably claim he doesn't like the jerseys or something.

rapidmaker54 said:The real issue here is that they are banning people from attending games who haven't even been convicted of a misdemeanor yet, let alone a crime, simply because an investigation is still ongoing...
To put it bluntly... it's like a cop pulling you over and revoking your driver's license just because he thinks you blew through a light, without even knowing if it was red or green.

and honestly, when you look at how many people die on the roads every single day... anyone who commits even a minor traffic violation should be locked up and have their license, passport, car keys—hell, even the damn car itself—taken away immediately...

feralpilot912 said:We need to fight this using every repressive tool at our disposal. I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again: if we need to revoke passports, then let them be revoked. If we need to harass anyone convicted of hooliganism by forcing them to check in at police stations or making them watch games from there—so be it. If there is any way to make it difficult for a hooligan to attend a match or support their club or the national team, I am all for it.

There are far too many idiots in the stands who jeopardize everyone's safety and bring shame to the club, the city, and the entire country. Let those fan groups purge themselves. If the fans won't do it themselves—and we all know they won't—then the state should use other means to handle it.

-------

As for the claim that this is stripping away or limiting constitutional rights—well, it simply isn't. Freedoms and rights can be restricted by law to protect the freedoms and rights of others, the legal order, public morality, and public health. Any limitation of freedom or rights must be proportionate to the necessity of the restriction in each specific case (Article 16 of the Constitution). If you aren't allowed into a two-hour game because you were brawling or causing chaos at a previous match, I'd say that is perfectly proportionate to the situation.

If you've been in jail for hooliganism at matches, or even multiple times, why shouldn't they take your passport so you can't go on an away trip, say, to Italy? WTF? Either behave or deal with the consequences.

What even defines hooliganism in your eyes? What falls under that umbrella? In what way and for whom is being a fan socially harmful? And how many times have you actually been on a supporter's terrace?

Answer these few questions and back up your stance...

Otherwise, people might think you aren't exactly a genius and that your opinions are just being manufactured by pseudo-journalists living off sponsors who dictate exactly what they write...

Regarding yesterday's performance, it was worth praising. Real change only happens through media appearances and concrete proposals. If nothing changes, it means the government's goal isn't to pass good legislation, but to dismantle every organized form of fandom and current supporter groups... After this, we'll know where we stand, because everyone saw that the fans actually brought real proposals to the table...

The proposals and justifications were very well put together. My only addition would be that penalties should be much harsher if someone attacks another person with a stick, a plank, or a stone compared to a simple fistfight. Also, the most severe punishments should go toward those who vandalize vehicles; rival groups targeting buses or cars causes massive damage, especially when people struggle enough just to find transportation to get there...

Just a quick question here... who actually brings more shame to the country? Is it a group of "hooligans" getting into some random brawl in Prague and setting off flares in the stands, or is it the American ambassador caught smuggling alcohol into a nation where it's strictly prohibited?

rapidmaker54 said:The real issue here is that they are banning people from attending games who haven't even been convicted of a misdemeanor yet, let alone a crime, simply because an investigation is still ongoing...
To put it bluntly... it's like a cop pulling you over and revoking your driver's license just because he thinks you blew through a light, without even knowing if it was red or green.

Ahem... as a lawyer, I find poorly drafted laws regarding hooliganism more frustrating than the actual violence. And if what you're saying about this draft is accurate, then we have a problem here...

Look, I still maintain that hooliganism is an evil that needs to be rooted out. In our current climate, I almost view hooliganism and organized fandom as one and the same. Why? Because within these supporter groups, there’s zero condemnation of the "extremists" or the "thugs." There isn't even a single concrete action taken by the fans themselves against those among them. No internal lines are drawn. No one steps up. My take? There is no difference. They are all the same. There’s no distinction between a "hooligan" and a "fan"... which is why I support any strict sports fan law. Of course, implementation will be a mess. Every time the administration pushes something through, it ends up being a failure.