Started by Tyler Scott3 · · 👁 12 views · 110 replies
Kate Phillips40 said:I’ve been thinking about this whole situation for a while now, and I’ve realized that acting this way won't get us anywhere. I agree with most of you, but I truly believe we can fix everything just by staying active and participating here on Reddit, rather than leaving or trying to hide behind burner accounts. If I decided to boycott or stay silent, or if I put someone like Kate Phillips40 in "quarantine" while secretly posting under a fake name, I'd just be lying to myself. I’d much rather stand my ground using my one real username—even if people criticize me because they don't quite get 😁—because that feels more honest. It's better than pretending I stopped posting when I actually haven't. 🤷
Sure, there are moments of injustice and plenty of issues, but I think we can clear them up the same way they started: through conversation.
In this thread, Dervish criticized how Nicole James handles things, and others have pointed fingers at rowdyhawk10. Honestly, if the moderators are willing, it would be great if they stepped up here so we can clear the air. It looks like rowdyhawk10 is already open to making compromises, and I’m sure Nicole James will show up soon too. Plus, we have private messages, so if the mods messed up, let's just handle it privately.
I really miss Scott Nguyen2 and Dervish because your posts are what make this community what it is. Come back, everyone. Don't let anyone push you to the point where you give up after all this time.
I'm with Kenneth Peterson5 on this:
"Fix what you can and move on."
Since you mentioned it, Kenneth Peterson5, I just want to clarify one thing you said regarding the Quran, specifically when you noted:
"As far as I know, there's only one Quran containing the thoughts and advice of the Prophet Muhammad..."
Actually, the Quran doesn't contain Muhammad's personal thoughts or advice; it contains the direct words of God, which Muhammad was commanded to deliver to all of humanity.
Just a small correction, but it matters. 👍
I also hope Nicole James and rowdyhawk10 show some good faith here so we can find a positive way forward.
Come back, we miss you guys!
Peace and all the best. 👍
Nicole James said:I honestly regret not just locking this thread the moment it devolved into this endless back-and-forth regarding gay rights versus opposition to them.
Regarding the bans—if I recall correctly—I was actually quite lenient with the more extreme stances taken by the anti-gay side; what I actually stepped in to ban were the threats of violence, the truly horrific insults, and similar behavior. I think the core issue here is that Tyler Scott3 and Lisa Ortiz2 accused me of taking sides, and they both ended up getting flagged for trolling because of it. Both of them have been around this Reddit community for a long time, and frankly, they should have learned by now that if you have an issue with how a moderator handles things, you don't vent about it within the threads—you use the official grievance process.
If anyone thinks the state of this forum is ideal, they couldn't be further from the truth. The Religion sub is massive and incredibly volatile; Danaye and Blaise haven't been active for quite a while, and Scat has so much on his plate that he can't always get to everything. I try to step in whenever my personal life allows, but I simply don't have the bandwidth or the energy to meticulously comb through every single post. Most of the moderation happens reactively as reports come in, which is far from an ideal system. To be honest, I don't know how to fix all of this right now, but I do know that putting this kind of pressure on those of us still trying to keep this place alive isn't helping anyone.
Nicole James said:I honestly regret not just locking this thread the moment it devolved into this endless back-and-forth regarding gay rights versus opposition to them.
Regarding the bans—if I recall correctly—I was actually quite lenient with the more extreme stances taken by the anti-gay side; what I actually stepped in to ban were the threats of violence, the truly horrific insults, and similar behavior. I think the core issue here is that Tyler Scott3 and Lisa Ortiz2 accused me of taking sides, and they both ended up getting flagged for trolling because of it. Both of them have been around this Reddit community for a long time, and frankly, they should have learned by now that if you have an issue with how a moderator handles things, you don't vent about it within the threads—you use the official grievance process.
If anyone thinks the state of this forum is ideal, they couldn't be further from the truth. The Religion sub is massive and incredibly volatile; Danaye and Blaise haven't been active for quite a while, and Scat has so much on his plate that he can't always get to everything. I try to step in whenever my personal life allows, but I simply don't have the bandwidth or the energy to meticulously comb through every single post. Most of the moderation happens reactively as reports come in, which is far from an ideal system. To be honest, I don't know how to fix all of this right now, but I do know that putting this kind of pressure on those of us still trying to keep this place alive isn't helping anyone.
Scott Nguyen2 said:If my seniority on this Reddit—specifically on this sub—actually counts for anything, then I’m calling on it now. Not to hurt the feelings of the younger users, mind you, but just to make it clear: the constant bickering between users isn't why I'm walking away. People can focus on the secondary stuff if they want, and yeah, maybe staying silent is less "useful" than posting, but the drama among users isn't the reason I'm boycotting this place.
Let’s not mince words here. I am boycotting this because of the deliberate, systematic discrimination based on faith being carried out by the moderators—specifically rowdyhawk10. They are targeting members of the modern Salaf movement due to their religious beliefs and outlook... (people who don't agree call them Wahhabis—and I'm only mentioning that to identify a specific group, regardless of what label anyone wants to slap on them)
This has nothing to do with my personal chats with any particular user, whether they follow Salafism or not. It’s about the fact that there is a conscious, unfair effort to stifle their presence here—even though, honestly, I don't even agree with all their interpretations and views myself.
Secondly, I’m boycotting the general trend where atheists try to turn the Religion sub-forum into their own little ideological stronghold at any cost. The proof is right there: there are fewer and fewer believers left in the Religion section (which is supposed to serve them, by the way). And it’s not because they lack "arguments"—it's because the insults being thrown around go way beyond anything remotely decent or human. (Okay, there are exceptions, sure).
Now, look, I'm not saying we should kick the atheists out of the Religion sub. No. I'm saying something needs to be done about the culture of conversation here. Nobody comes here to act as a punching bag for someone else's frustrations. To show you how ridiculous this is, just try opening a thread in the 'Science' sub titled 'Evolution is a myth based on scientific evidence' (just as an example)... either the thread gets nuked immediately or it gets moved back to 'Religion,' making 'Religion' look like some kind of trash bin for those people. On the flip side, as a total paradox that proves my point, you have the 'Atheism' topic pinned right there in the Religion sub.
Everything I’m laying out here is happening systematically and intentionally to turn this sub into anything *but* what it's actually meant to be. Basically, the Religion sub is slowly sinking into the mud of the entire forum. And when you add the fact that Josh is trying to systematically "cleanse" the "Wahhabis" from that mud—who are believers, no matter how people perceive them, and therefore deserve the basic rights afforded to everyone in this sub—it turns out this isn't a sub "for religion" at all. It's a private playground for the moderators, using their power to push their own agendas. Whether that's an agenda of "modernization" (where religion is just a tool for their specific worldview), pushing pro-gay ideology, or pushing secularization under the guise of "human rights." These moderators judge a user's value solely based on whether they fit their worldview. If they do, they look the other way and let "insults" slide (just look at the complaint from Tyler Scott3). But if you don't fit their mold, they discriminate against you—banning you, etc.
This sub has never seen worse moderation than it is seeing right now.
Since the goal seems to be driving believers out of the space that should belong to them (I mean, the sub is called 'Religion,' not 'Ideology') while keeping the "moderates" around, I—as a "moderate"—feel for everyone who has been treated unfairly here. I’m sacrificing myself because every other way of handling this—negotiations, talking it out—has proven to be completely useless. That is why I am boycotting. Until things change, there is no point in posting. For things to change, the moderators need to admit they've messed up. That’s all I’m asking. I'm not calling for a revolution or trying to "topple the government," I'm just asking the "powers that be" to guarantee that people can write freely without having their religious feelings trampled on.
Look, I’m not saying atheists should be kicked out of the Religion sub—not at all. What I am saying is that we need to actually do something about the culture here. Nobody came to Reddit to play therapist for everyone else's personal frustrations, right? Just to show you how ridiculous this is—try going over to the Science subreddit and starting a thread titled "Evolution is a total myth based on scientific evidence." Go ahead, try it. Either the thread gets deleted immediately, or it gets moved straight back to the Religion section. It basically makes Religion look like some kind of catch-all trash bin for people who don't know where else to put their nonsense.
On the other hand, we’ve got this total paradox happening—which actually proves my point—where the whole 'atheism' thread is just sitting there anchored right inside the Religion sub-Reddit.
Everything I’m saying here is that there is a systematic, deliberate effort going on to turn this entire section into anything but what it’s actually supposed to be—a place for Religion. Basically, step by step, the Religion subforum is being dragged down into the "mud" of the general forum. And when you add the fact that they're trying to systematically purge the "Wahhabis"—who are just believers, no matter how anyone chooses to view them, and therefore the Religion subforum should guarantee basic rights to everyone regardless of their affiliation—it becomes pretty obvious. It turns out this isn't even a subforum "for religion." It feels more like a private playground for the moderators, who seem to be using their moderation powers to push their own ideological agendas. Whether those goals are some forced "modernization" (where, for these people, Religion is just a tool to fit their own self-contained worldview), promoting gay ideology, or pushing secularization under the guise of "human rights," it's all the same. These moderators judge a user's value solely based on whether they align with their specific worldview. If someone fits their mold, they look the other way—they let certain "insults" slide right past them (just look at the complaint from Tyler Scott3). But if someone doesn't fit their personal agenda? They discriminate against them—banning them and throwing the book at them.
Honestly, this subreddit has never had worse moderation than what we’re dealing with right now.
Since someone’s goal seems to be driving believers away from a 'space' that should actually be dedicated to them (I mean, the sub is literally called 'Religion,' not 'Ideology'), while keeping the 'subordinates'—read: the moderates—in power, I, as a 'moderate' myself, feel for everyone else who's been treated unfairly here. I'm basically sacrificing myself because every other method—negotiations, etc.—has turned out to be completely useless. That's why I'm boycotting. Until things change, there's really no point in posting anything here. For things to actually improve, the mods need to realize where they messed up. I'm not asking for a revolution or trying to 'overthrow' anyone; I just want the leadership to guarantee that people can post freely without being forced to violate someone else's religious feelings.
First off, this whole thing about insults is—to put it mildly—a total exaggeration. Believers say way nastier things to atheists all the time, and by the way, those things rarely ever actually get sanctioned at all.
Kenneth Peterson5 said:If you had just posted this (post #26), Scott Nguyen2, right after Black-white got his permanent ban, then it would actually carry some weight—but the way things are now, you’re basically just shouting into the void.
Plus, you’re out here complaining about systematic religious discrimination, yet you want to kick atheists out of the Religion sub-forum? It honestly makes me wonder if you even realize you're literally asking for the same kind of discrimination you hate—you're totally tripping over your own feet here.
I don't even know what else to tell you, other than it's a shame that your good intentions—I'm assuming they *are* good intentions—probably won't be taken the way you think they will.
Later,
Secondly, I am boycotting the general tendency of atheists to try—at any cost—to turn the Religion sub-forum into their own ideological stronghold. The proof is right there: there are fewer and fewer believers on the Religion forum (which should actually be serving them), and it's not because they lack "arguments," it's because the insults have gone way beyond any level of basic human decency. (Okay, there are exceptions, obviously).
Now, I'm not saying atheists should be "driven out" of the Religion sub-forum—no, absolutely not—I'm just saying something needs to be done about the culture of the conversation. Nobody came here to deal with someone else's frustrations.
Scott Nguyen2 said:If my seniority on this Reddit—specifically on this sub—actually counts for anything, then I’m calling on it now. Not to hurt the feelings of the younger users, mind you, but just to make it clear: the constant bickering between users isn't why I'm walking away. People can focus on the secondary stuff if they want, and yeah, maybe staying silent is less "useful" than posting, but the drama among users isn't the reason I'm boycotting this place.
Let’s not mince words here. I am boycotting this because of the deliberate, systematic discrimination based on faith being carried out by the moderators—specifically rowdyhawk10. They are targeting members of the modern Salaf movement due to their religious beliefs and outlook... (people who don't agree call them Wahhabis—and I'm only mentioning that to identify a specific group, regardless of what label anyone wants to slap on them)
This has nothing to do with my personal chats with any particular user, whether they follow Salafism or not. It’s about the fact that there is a conscious, unfair effort to stifle their presence here—even though, honestly, I don't even agree with all their interpretations and views myself.
Secondly, I’m boycotting the general trend where atheists try to turn the Religion sub-forum into their own little ideological stronghold at any cost. The proof is right there: there are fewer and fewer believers left in the Religion section (which is supposed to serve them, by the way). And it’s not because they lack "arguments"—it's because the insults being thrown around go way beyond anything remotely decent or human. (Okay, there are exceptions, sure).
Now, look, I'm not saying we should kick the atheists out of the Religion sub. No. I'm saying something needs to be done about the culture of conversation here. Nobody comes here to act as a punching bag for someone else's frustrations. To show you how ridiculous this is, just try opening a thread in the 'Science' sub titled 'Evolution is a myth based on scientific evidence' (just as an example)... either the thread gets nuked immediately or it gets moved back to 'Religion,' making 'Religion' look like some kind of trash bin for those people. On the flip side, as a total paradox that proves my point, you have the 'Atheism' topic pinned right there in the Religion sub.
Everything I’m laying out here is happening systematically and intentionally to turn this sub into anything *but* what it's actually meant to be. Basically, the Religion sub is slowly sinking into the mud of the entire forum. And when you add the fact that Josh is trying to systematically "cleanse" the "Wahhabis" from that mud—who are believers, no matter how people perceive them, and therefore deserve the basic rights afforded to everyone in this sub—it turns out this isn't a sub "for religion" at all. It's a private playground for the moderators, using their power to push their own agendas. Whether that's an agenda of "modernization" (where religion is just a tool for their specific worldview), pushing pro-gay ideology, or pushing secularization under the guise of "human rights." These moderators judge a user's value solely based on whether they fit their worldview. If they do, they look the other way and let "insults" slide (just look at the complaint from Tyler Scott3). But if you don't fit their mold, they discriminate against you—banning you, etc.
This sub has never seen worse moderation than it is seeing right now.
Since the goal seems to be driving believers out of the space that should belong to them (I mean, the sub is called 'Religion,' not 'Ideology') while keeping the "moderates" around, I—as a "moderate"—feel for everyone who has been treated unfairly here. I’m sacrificing myself because every other way of handling this—negotiations, talking it out—has proven to be completely useless. That is why I am boycotting. Until things change, there is no point in posting. For things to change, the moderators need to admit they've messed up. That’s all I’m asking. I'm not calling for a revolution or trying to "topple the government," I'm just asking the "powers that be" to guarantee that people can write freely without having their religious feelings trampled on.
When you're talking about religion—or any kind of deep-seated belief system—emotions just go through the roof. It’s incredibly hard to stay objective, whether you're a believer or an atheist, and it’s even harder if you're a moderator... who basically feels forced to act as the ultimate moral compass on such a high-stakes subreddit. There's zero room for error here. Basically, none at all.
So, I really don't get why you're pushing for changes that won't happen through some big boycott. Honestly? It only changes through patience, being persistent, pointing out mistakes, or maybe just showing way more tolerance toward everyone—even those people who are being offensive. And honestly, it feels like nobody uses it anymore, but there's still the "ignore" button. That tool is perfect for cooling things down and just tuning out anyone who clearly isn't capable of—or interested in—having an actual, reasoned debate.
Scott Nguyen2 said:It’s such a total paradox that atheism is treated as a core topic on the Religion subreddit, especially since atheism is—by its very definition—the opposition to religion. It’s just a plain fact, really, and honestly, both believers and non-believers would have to agree that atheism stands in direct opposition to faith.
And yet, despite that, the Religion subreddit is easily the most "open" corner of this entire site... because they actually allow atheism to be given the same weight and attention as any other religion. It’s almost—hypothetically speaking—like they're putting it on the exact same level as religion (whatever that may be)... which, if you think about it, is a massive slap in the face to any atheist. To suggest that their "lack of belief" is somehow based on dogma too? It's ridiculous! By treating it this way, atheists end up insulting themselves—whether they realize it or not—because they’re essentially placing themselves on the same plane as the very dogma they’re so "passionate" about criticizing. They turn into the very thing they oppose.
Anyway, I'm just making an observation here, not calling for anyone to go out and kick the atheists out or anything like that. Just a thought that seems interesting (at least to me)... something that probably needs even more digging, like how Communism—which stems from atheism—evently morphs into this weird cult of personality where the "leader" (or the party) is seen as infallible... which is, at its core, basically just religious behavior.
Scott Nguyen2 said:When you're talking about religion—or any kind of deep-seated belief system—emotions just go through the roof. It’s incredibly hard to stay objective, whether you're a believer or an atheist, and it’s even harder if you're a moderator... who basically feels forced to act as the ultimate moral compass on such a high-stakes subreddit. There's zero room for error here. Basically, none at all.
So, I really don't get why you're pushing for changes that won't happen through some big boycott. Honestly? It only changes through patience, being persistent, pointing out mistakes, or maybe just showing way more tolerance toward everyone—even those people who are being offensive. And honestly, it feels like nobody uses it anymore, but there's still the "ignore" button. That tool is perfect for cooling things down and just tuning out anyone who clearly isn't capable of—or interested in—having an actual, reasoned debate.
Look, I see now that words don't mean anything. Whether I write stuff or not, it doesn't matter—it’s all useless. The opinions of the users here (let's be real, even respected ones like Tyler Scott3 and the rest) aren't even taken seriously or considered. It's not just about us "wondering" about how the sub is organized; it's about the fact that if we want to be taken seriously, we should be treated that way. If that's not the case, then a boycott seems like a much more effective move to me.
I'm ending this whole dialogue with this post.
Best,
Tyler Scott3 said:I’ll jump in here and back up Scott Nguyen2. Just as a quick reminder, remember when rowdyhawk10 messed up by flagging a perfectly coherent post as off-topic trolling? It was over on the Islam 114 thread. He acts like the ultimate authority on that subject, yet he failed the most basic test right there, and he’s too stubborn to admit it.
(Since we're dealing with highly technical stuff that most people on Reddit wouldn't grasp, I won't bother dropping a link unless someone actually asks for it.)
Not to mention, his reaction basically made people wonder if a certain user had finally lost their mind. To put it bluntly, his moderation style made us all question that person's mental state.
While digging his heels in on a wrong opinion, he ended up banning nine Muslims during that stretch—and he's a Muslim himself. It’s enough to make anyone lose their cool.
Anyway, since we've already started dissecting the moderation here, even though I personally wanted to avoid getting into the weeds and being nitpicky.
On the other hand, you have Nicole James, who uses her moderator status to defend her opinions on threads where she's just a regular participant. She lets inappropriate posts slide, and rowdyhawk10 backs her up by ensuring those slips aren't even reported. Just to be clear, Nicole James was active in those discussions and read every single one of those posts—you can tell by her own comments. That means she let them pass on purpose. There's no way someone with her level of experience and seniority missed them. Which brings us right back to the original point of this thread.
And I should probably mention that his reaction actually caused someone on Reddit to wonder—to put it bluntly—if the guy had finally lost his mind. Seriously, by handling the moderation that way, he’s basically cast doubt on another user's mental stability in the eyes of the rest of us.
Defending my position—even though I know I'm wrong—
ruggedwolf said:Look, I'm just asking if you could bring him along, if that’s even possible.And I should probably mention that his reaction actually caused someone on Reddit to wonder—to put it bluntly—if the guy had finally lost his mind. Seriously, by handling the moderation that way, he’s basically cast doubt on another user's mental stability in the eyes of the rest of us.
Which user are you actually talking about? Since you’ve gone ahead and suggested that someone might be having some mental health struggles—which is a pretty heavy thing to drop into a conversation—it would probably be fair to specify who exactly you mean. I mean, maybe they have no clue anyone even thinks that about them, and then they turn around and start complaining about the very thing being said... wouldn't it be better to just call it out directly? That way, they actually get a chance to respond to the accusation, right?Defending my position—even though I know I'm wrong—
What kind of wrong attitude is that?
