General Chat & Info Board

ruggedfalcon2 said:So, you mean Elizabeth Ruiz65? 🙂 😉

I wasn't bringing this up just to glorify "my" version of P. Bayer’s Wing Chun
or anything else like it. It’s more because you see it mentioned everywhere
that when Yip Man’s students progressed, he tended to tailor the training philosophy
specifically to each individual. This led to some students championing anti-grappling
techniques while others wouldn't dream of touching them. Some instructors might
only introduce stick work after years of training,
whereas others use a few drills to establish a solid stance almost immediately.
Some insist on starting with Bong Sau through lateral lifting exercises,
while others demand that elbow rotation from day one. Some people love to mystify
everything with talk of Chi energy and similar nonsense,
while others stick strictly to a scientific, essentially Western, approach.

By attaching a specific name to a style practiced by someone who studied under Yip Man,
you're implying it's his direct lineage, but it actually provides a clearer picture
of that specific person's methods rather than just saying "I do Yip Man's Wing Chun."
The reason is simple: not everyone incorporates every single element of the original
teaching in the same way, and modifications inevitably creep in over time,
whether that's for positive reasons, negative ones, pure propaganda,
or just plain old marketing—or lack thereof.

That’s all there is to it. I don't really care for these endless Wing Chun debates here;
my take is that we should probably spend more time training and less time talking.

Come on, people—everything turns out fine if we’re smart enough to turn things to our advantage and actually learn something from it. As for who’s better or whose dad could take whose dad in a fight? Honestly, those debates are just a waste of breath...
Anyway... what are your thoughts on Bas Rutten? I’ve got some of his old training tapes on CD... there's a lot of real wisdom to be found there. After all, he is the head coach at Anaconda🙂

Elizabeth Ruiz65 said:I wasn't saying that just to glorify "his" P. Bayer Wing Chun
or anything else—it’s more because you see it mentioned everywhere
that when Yip Man's students progressed, he basically tailored
their training philosophies individually for everyone. That led to some students pushing anti-grappling techniques while others
won't even touch them. Some teachers might wait years before
introducing stick work,
whereas others get a student into a better stance with just a few drills almost immediately.
Some insist on doing Bong Sao early through lateral lifting exercises
rather than pure elbow rotation right away, while others
demand that rotation from day one. Some people mystify everything with
Chi energy manipulations and stuff like that, while others stick strictly to
a scientific—call it a Western—approach.

And by naming a style after someone who trained under Yip Man,
it implies it’s actually his version of Wing Chun, but it gives a clearer
picture of that specific person's methods rather than just saying "I do Yip
Man's Wing Chun." The reason is that not everyone incorporates
every single element of the original teaching in the same way, and over time,
modifications creep in—whether that's good, bad, propaganda, or just
plain old marketing.

Anyway, that's all there is to it. I'm not really interested in the Wing Chun bickering here—
my take is you just need to train more and talk less.

Where on earth did you get the idea that I wanted to argue or was trying to glorify anyone? Who even started this thread asking "what do you think about P. Bayer Wing Chun"... was it you or me? 😉
None of what you listed actually justifies calling it "P. Bayer Wing Chun." And claiming Man "individualized" training is just your misunderstanding of the marketing gimmicks his students use... which, honestly, it looks like you're buying into. 😉That "individualization" usually boils down to a few things:
there are people who barely spent any time with Y. Man or weren't with him at all... they didn't learn much in such a short window. Of course, when you don't know something, the best move is to say, "It doesn't matter... we're convinced of [blah blah blah]." I won't drag this out because my head is pounding from this cold... the point is, everything you wrote is textbook indoctrination. We all know why and when stick work is used. All these "improvisations" are either a total failure to grasp the essence of Wing Chun... or pure marketing to say, "we're different," or "we're more Western"... and so on. It's common sense that you can't run before you can walk. No matter how "traditional" that sounds, it's just the truth. Basically, modifications happen because people lack the knowledge or they're just trying to sell snake oil. I told you I'm glad you're happy and getting some exercise... but based on what you just wrote, you're a victim of indoctrination. I don't care if that upsets you or your "Sifu" Bichanic... and I'll only acknowledge this "scientific approach" once someone from Bayer's "lineage" actually performs in a ring or at least steps into one (especially since Bayer has been teaching for over 30 years). Until then, I don't care about the modifications or the science. It only interests me as a hobby or something to laugh at... so, don't feel attacked or anything... I'm just telling you my thoughts on these "modifications" and the "science."...🙂

Mark Wilson39 said:Come on, guys—everything is fine as long as we’re capable enough to turn things to our advantage and actually learn something useful from it. It doesn't matter whose dad is tougher... at that point, everyone's just outclassed anyway...
but... what do you all think about Bas Rutten? I've got some of his stuff on CD... you can really learn a lot from him. After all, he's the head coach over at Anaconda.🙂

It’s not about whose dad is stronger... there's only one true father figure here, and that's Yip Man. The problem is that some sons, stepsons, grandsons, or even great-grandsons are nowhere near the level of the "father," yet they love to claim his name...😉
btw. Bas Rutten is top-tier.
👍

Bas Rutten is the GOAT. I’ve got a ton of his gear, and honestly, every single piece is worth it.
As for Wing Chun, I just don't get how a supposed master can skip out on anti-grappling or anything else if that's actually part of being a complete martial artist. A buddy of mine from my neighborhood runs this "Muay Thai" club where they don't even touch clinching or knees at all. Then, when I show up to spar with his students, he tells them to stay away from the clinch! Well, excuse me, but if you aren't doing that, it isn't Muay Thai. In my gym, we learn everything—knees, straight punches, the whole nine yards. At the end of the day, it’s up to the fighter to adapt those techniques and use whatever fits their style best. Even in Thailand, you have different camps; some are famous for killer clinch work, while others focus more on hand strikes, but in every single one, fighters learn the full spectrum before specializing in what works for them or what the camp emphasizes.

I suppose I’ll add one more thing... I’ll admit to Bayer’s "modification," but only from one specific angle—the very thing I was admiring him for in my first post here 🙏. See, we're talking about a guy who doesn't have a forearm, but a prosthetic instead... It’s common knowledge that he actually had to "modify" his Wing Chun because of that. It’s no secret... his Si Fu Wong had to adapt his training—incorporating stick work and all sorts of other adjustments—specifically because of that loss... So, yes, there really is a modification in Bayer's case. And if every single one of you claiming to practice his "style" also happens to be rocking a prosthetic arm (if so, I feel for you, but honestly, I admire the grit 👍)... then fine, I'll concede that your version of Wing Chun is somewhat modified too. Just wanted to be clear about what kind of modification we're actually discussing, and why I'm only acknowledging this one based on the objective circumstances... no hard feelings 👍

Justin Adams5 said:Bas Rutten is the man—I've got plenty of his gear and honestly, everything he puts out is solid.
As for Wing Chun, I just don't get how a master can ignore anti-grappling or anything else if those skills are part of being a complete martial artist. A buddy from my neighborhood runs this "Muay Thai" club where they don't even touch knees or clinch work at all... then when I show up to spar with his students, he tells them to stay away from the clinch. Well, if you aren't doing that, it isn't really Muay Thai, is it? In my gym, we cover the whole spectrum—knees, straight punches, the works—and then it’s up to the fighter to adapt those techniques and use whatever fits their style best. Even in Thailand, you have camps famous for heavy clinch work, while others focus more on hand speed, but in every single one, fighters learn the full package—they just specialize in what suits them or what the camp pushes...

👍 exactly... 👍

Justin Adams5 said:Bas Rutten is just awesome—I’ve actually got quite a few of his things, and honestly, every single one of them is useful.
As for Wing Chun, I guess I just don't get how some grandmaster can ignore anti-grappling or whatever else if that's supposed to be part of being a true expert in the art.

The answer is actually pretty simple, I think.

It's because that stuff just isn't part of the skill set they're mastering, and frankly, it doesn't really serve a purpose for them anyway.

Maybe try looking up some videos on "anti-grappling" and then, you know, go ask an actual grappler what they think about it.

- briskjackal5 -

CHE-Guerrilla said:Where on earth did you get the idea that I’d want to start an argument, or that I was trying to glorify anything? Seriously, who actually started the thread asking for thoughts on P.Bayer Wing Chun... you or me? 😉
Everything you just said doesn't even come close to justifying calling something "P. Bayer Wing Chun." As for this idea that Man "individualized" his training sessions? That’s really just a misunderstanding of the cheap marketing gimmicks his students push around... and honestly, I can tell you couldn't care less about them. 😉 This concept of "individualization" really just boils down to a few key things:
There are people out there who spent a tiny fraction of time with Master Y, or perhaps haven't even trained with him at all, yet they act like experts. They haven't actually learned much in such a short window, but hey, when you don't know something, it’s always easier to just pretend you do, isn't it? It doesn't matter what we believe; everyone is convinced of their own version of the truth. I won't dwell on this too long—this cold is giving me a massive headache—but here is the point. Everything you just laid out is textbook indoctrination. We all know why certain "adjustments" are made and when. All those voluntary "improvisations" you mentioned are either a complete failure to grasp the core essence of Wing Chun, or they are nothing more than pure marketing designed to say, "We’re different," or "We’re more Westernized." It’s simple logic: you can't run before you learn how to walk. No matter how traditional that might sound to some, it's just the reality of the situation. Essentially, these modifications exist because people lack fundamental knowledge, or because they want to sell a fantasy. I told you before that I’m glad you’re happy and getting some exercise, but based on what you wrote, it looks like you’ve fallen for the propaganda. I don't care how much that upsets you or your "Sifu" Bichanic. As for this supposed "scientific approach" of yours, I’ll only take it seriously once someone from the Bayer lineage actually steps into a ring or even attempts to compete. Given that Bayer has been teaching for over thirty years, that's the benchmark. Until then, I couldn't care less about these modifications or the "science" behind them—they're only relevant to me as a way to pass the time or get some light recreation. Don't feel attacked or anything. I'm just telling you exactly what I think about these "modernizations" and this scientific veneer. 🙂

I already explained why I categorized that as P.Bayer’s Wing Chun, and I said...
I’m not looking to glorify one specific approach over another, and that’s exactly where we stood.
That's it. Honestly, everything I just listed was just the general state of affairs in the US.
It’s not like this is aimed solely at Bayer or their specific way of doing things.
The best. And you just rushed right in, didn't you? That childish need to prove yourself took over immediately.
Everything they say is just a distraction, a little detour from the point. You really think that kind of indirect jab isn't a direct hit on you?
(Just regarding indoctrination), and then you resort to the shallowest, cheapest attempts possible.
It’s been a while since I’ve heard cynicism quite like that—something along the lines of "me and my old mentor."
Or these pathetic attempts at mockery just because they're trying to link everything back to Bayer?
Prosthetics and the modifications mentioned—nothing lower than that.
And I’m certainly not going to lecture anyone on that particular brand of egoism—the kind that stems from the desperate need for YOU to be the one to take the credit.
When you see Bayer’s scientific approach in a fight, it's pretty much common knowledge that he's...
That whole approach is essentially just Wong’s legacy, isn't it? And now you're telling me that even Wong wouldn't...
He never actually fought (aiming for Beimo). That whole ego trip was just about what you’re going to do.
Admit it, you actually believe the world revolves around you and that everyone else should just revolve around you too.
What would people practicing Wing Chun actually care about? What would some guy on a forum think of them?
Someone who prefers to stay out of the spotlight.

Like I said before, I couldn't care less about these endless WC debates—especially not here.
At such a childish level, where instead of being constructive, it just relies on...
Driven by nothing but deep-seated prejudices and a childish need to belittle. 👋

p.s. since you’re constantly obsessing over some ring, why don't you actually show me the footage?
I’d love to see your favorite bathroom combat highlights, just for the sake of being informed.

Elizabeth Ruiz65 said:I already explained why I posted that as P.Bayer's Wing Chun, and I said...
I don't want to glorify one specific approach over another—and that was the whole point here...
That's it. Honestly, everything I just went through was basically just the standard situation back in the States...
It's not just about targeting Bayer—it’s more about how he handles things... his whole approach.
Best one. And you just jumped right in—that childish need to prove yourself took over immediately...
Everything that’s said—even if it just veers slightly away from what you actually believe—is basically a direct hit on you...
(It’s all about indoctrination, really)—and then you just end up serving up the shallowest, cheapest attempts possible...
It’s been a minute since I’ve heard cynicism quite like that—something along the lines of "me and my mentor, Mr. Bičančić"...
Or these pathetic little attempts at mockery just because they're linking it back to Bayer...
Prosthetics and those modifications we talked about—nothing lower than that.
And I’m not even going to get into that whole ego thing—you know, the kind that stems from the desperate need to be the one who gets all the credit...
Bayer's scientific approach when you face him in a fight—well, it’s common knowledge that he's...
That whole approach is basically just Wong’s legacy—and now you're telling me that even Wong...
He never actually fought it (I’m talking about Beimo). That whole ego thing—it was really just about how you would...
I’ll admit it—I can see you really think the whole world revolves around you and that everyone else should just...
Which Wing Chun practitioners should actually care about what this forum guy thinks?
Someone who prefers to keep their identity private.

Like I said—I'm just not interested in these WC debates, especially not here...
At such a childish level—where instead of actually being constructive, it just relies on...
Driven by stubborn prejudices and a childish need to belittle others... 👋

P.S. Anyway—since you're always talking about some ring, just send me the footage...
Just looking for some info on my favorite WC fighters in the ring—would love to get a little deep dive on them...

So, this guy is throwing a fit... He managed to find fault with everything in my post except for the actual question—which he completely ignored. I laid everything out clearly and backed it up with solid arguments. The fact that you (since you’re the one who started this whole thing about Bayer) feel personally attacked and are now dumping all your energy into attacking me for two posts straight... well, that says a lot more about you than it does about me... 👍 In any case, they certainly haven't failed to impress me... 😳
Yeah, Wong is one of the legends at BJJ... I’ve written about him plenty of times—on my blog and here too. Though, knowing you, you probably won't even address what I'm actually asking; you'll just sit there sighing at me instead. So, let me ask you this rhetorically: you're basically like those guys following Lok Yiu—people who assume that just because someone is a "Grandmaster," it automatically follows that they're elite fighters. Like, if a teacher of teachers was successful in matches, then you and your instructors must be "fighters" too... even though you've likely never stepped foot in a real ring in your life, unless it was for a photo op. 🤣

Elizabeth Ruiz65 said:p.s. anyway, since you keep bringing up "the ring," why don't you just show me some footage
of your favorite bathroom breaks in the ring—I’d actually love to get a little informative look at that.

That’s common knowledge by now... this time I’ll pivot to something else entirely... mostly focusing on the white guys... but alright... here’s an American link where people from the Wing Chun community give neutral feedback—not tied to any specific "style"—listing folks who actually stepped into combat... go ahead and learn something from that first post at the top...🙂
http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/foru...t=42145&page=2

Just to give you an idea of who actually shows up to train under a Wing Chun instructor like this... specifically regarding Prosenica:

07-07-2006, 04:42 PM
Gooseman
Registered User Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 19

Reply to Milan Prosenica ??

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Milan Prosenica is in his 50s now—his era of dominance across Europe spanned the 80s and early 90s.
http://www.kungfu-si.com/strani/milanpros.htm

I spent some time training with him this year at Nick Smart’s gym over in Lancashire.
Man, for a retired pro, he still moves like lightning—the guy is absolute steel.
His gym in Canada is a legitimate pro-fight facility... you'll see guys like Mirko Crocop or Gary Goodridge—along with parts of the Golden Glory team—dropping in there when they're fighting K1 or MMA in Eastern Europe.
Milan’s specialty is combat footwork, finding those tight angles, and developing power for full-contact fighting. He’s legendary for running the best pad work for the K1 training teams in that region.
Believe me, the guy just radiates intent, power, and pure skill.
And he’s got a great way about him too—really impressive presence.
The Goose!

So, you'll easily find names like Mirko (back in his K1 days) or even Gary Goodridge on his list... so you can see why I "admire" him so much. And you know why? It's because they don't try to sell you some smoke and mirrors about "their unique style" or how "scientific" it is... they don't hide behind famous old masters either. They get in the ring and do the work themselves. There it is. Now, go ahead and turn it back on me—call me cynical or malicious if you want... go for it. 🙂 ..anyway. 👍

briskjackal5 said:The answer is actually pretty simple.

It’s not even part of what makes someone a master—doesn't serve any real purpose anyway.

Just look up some videos on "anti-grappling" and ask a real grappler what they think about it.

- briskjackal5 -

I haven't found anything online specifically labeled as "anti-grappling" skills... but I did ask a respected grappler—a Jiu-Jitsu and Judo expert—and he told me Wing Chun anti-grappling works perfectly fine.👍

Elizabeth Ruiz65 said:🙂

Look, kid... honestly... it’s about time you came clean... what’s the actual deal with the science behind Bayer’s Wing Chun modification? It seems like once you ran out of actual points, you just decided to come after me... fine, whatever, maybe that’ll help you out in the short term 👍 but I’d actually appreciate an answer now... 😘

Well, what else could one expect? I step away for a few hours, and immediately I’m hit by this compulsive
need to prove something, resulting in nothing more or less
than three posts fueled by nothing but prejudice, condescension, and pathetic
attempts at cynicism—calling me "kid," "punk," or "little guy." Then, in those same
posts, you claim I'm the one directing intense energy toward you (despite you writing three posts
to my single one), and suggest I resort to insults due to a lack of arguments, while you
continuously rely on those shallow, childish cynical jabs. 🙂
Regarding the theory, part of it sounds plausible, but since you haven't actually found any footage or techniques to demonstrate,
it remains nothing more than ink on paper that proves absolutely nothing.
And why would anyone even step into the ring if training consists entirely of semi-
full sparring aimed at testing how things work in practice? For some, the goal in
life isn't proving themselves in a ring. But I understand you; for someone with such a compulsive
need for validation, it must be difficult to grasp that not everyone is wired the same way. =) You have your own
stubborn views that aren't going to change; no matter what I say, you'll just
come back with another "argument"—which is really just a prejudice—like the idea that a student
must be inferior to the teacher, served up in a mega-mix of childish epithets
that aren't even intelligent enough to be funny. As I told you, I wasn't in the restroom
for long, and quite frankly, I have zero interest in bickering over which approach is superior
or glorifying any specific style, especially at such a low level. The topic wasn't
opened to disparage anything, but rather with the intention of
learning and having a constructive discussion. Seeing through these
few posts that I won't get either from you—and seeing how you've taken a topic
that was foreign to me as a direct assault on your very
integrity and existence—even if I could provide an answer to your
question, I simply see no point in answering it or continuing the discussion itself.

So, I will cordially bid you farewell and sincerely wish you a life with a lower
level of bitterness and insecurity.

Elizabeth Ruiz65 said:What else could you expect? I'll be gone for a few hours—then right back in the thick of this compulsive urge...
Complexity and that constant itch to prove oneself—that’s all there is to it...
Three posts here where they’re back at it again—relying on the same old prejudices, cheap shots, and just plain bad takes...
Trying out that cynical act—using terms like "kid," "screw it," or "little guy"—and then turning around and taking shots at me too...
He’s claiming I’m directing some intense energy his way—apparently, he’s written three different posts about it now...
Look, if I find myself running out of actual arguments—which happens—I just resort to throwing insults instead... all the time.
Use those shallow little attempts at cynicism they call "childhood wit." 🙂
Prosenice sounds convincing enough to me—but when it comes to the actual footage and technical execution, I'm still not sold...
You haven't actually accomplished anything—all you've done is leave some ink on paper without proving a damn thing...
I mean, why even bother stepping into the ring if training is just endless semi-contact drills...?
Just testing things out—seeing how this all actually works—because I know some people aren't really here for the right reasons...
Proving yourself in the ring for life... but I don't quite get you—there's something almost compulsive about it...
It’s honestly a bit hard to wrap your head around—proving that not everyone is cut from the same cloth is a tough sell... You’ve got your own way of doing things, too...
Opinions that won't change a damn thing—whatever I tell you, you'll just...
Here comes another "argument"—if you can even call a blatant prejudice an argument—like that one lady claiming someone is basically working for Bayer...
Definitely bad—the student always ends up outshining the teacher, especially when you throw in a megamix of childish insults...
Some people just aren't smart enough to even be funny. And I told you—I wasn't in the bathroom...
Long story short—I just don't care for the endless back-and-forth about which approach works better...
Glorifying anyone—especially at such a low level—is just wrong. It’s beside the point...
When someone opens their mouth just to tear something down—and I mean specifically with that intent...
For the sake of personal insight and some actual constructive debate—especially after seeing what we've already gathered from these folks here...
I'm not getting anything useful from you—not one thing—and on top of that, you're totally missing the point...
For some reason, I just realized this was a direct hit on my integrity...
Regarding one's own being and existence—even if I could offer you an answer to yours...
Question—I just don't see the point in answering like that either...
I'll keep going with this same topic in the next part...

So, I'll just give you a warm hello for now—and truly, I wish you a life with a little less stress...
Resentment and complexes...

That’s what I said. 😁 Another post just analyzing my guy and his dialogue... 🙏 😳
If I had just said from the jump that P. Bayer is a total joke, what would have happened then...? 🤣 Look, I was just making the point that there’s only one true Wing Chun—the Yip Man lineage—and everything else is just marketing fluff... but apparently, that’s enough to trigger a guy who’s been training for all of two months. So what’s a "sect," anyway? 🙂 Look, Pazte gets it better than anyone—and honestly, we all know why he’s always right... It's because he's the one footing the bill for all that expertise! 🤣 If you pay for something, you've got to trust it—haha... nothing new there... Kid, I’m sorry you felt like you were under fire... Just like in my first post, I can only wish you the absolute best with your training... 👍 I’m truly sorry you felt insulted... once you relax a bit or just grow up a little over time—and maybe re-read my posts—you'll realize I don't have an issue with anyone. You seem to be the only one here trying to claim some special expertise in P. Bayer Wing Chun... yet when I specifically asked you what the actual difference was, you didn't offer a single concrete answer. Instead of getting worked up and spending all that energy analyzing my "ego," you could have actually contributed something useful... but everything is clear now. You aren't the first or the last of these so-called RH Wing Chun enthusiasts. I've seen this routine before, and psychologically, it's transparent given the mindset you guys train with. If you actually wanted a constructive discussion or to learn something—like you claim—you wouldn't be talking nonsense; you'd be listening. But hey, it's your choice. I wish you the best, and the same to your instructor, Mr. Bichanic, who apparently heads over to Germany a few times a year to apprentice under P. Bayer. 😁 He’s definitely running a modified version of Wing Chun... and honestly, like you said... who even needs a ring when you're doing full sparring anyway... 😁

placidbison20 said:If you happen to run into anyone teaching ninjutsu in Split, please let me know.
I'm really interested.

I'll definitely give you a heads-up! 👍 though, from what I can tell so far, if there actually are any ninjas out there in Split, they’re doing a damn good job of staying hidden.

Paul King78 said:I'll tell you, obviously! 👍 Though, as things stand right now, if they even exist, the ninjas in Los Angeles are pretty damn good at hiding...

Now those are actual ninjas. Our local ones here in NYC... they're all easy to spot right away. 😬.

I’m also interested in ninjutsu... would love to get some training sessions in, just to get a firsthand feel for the skill.

Dammit.
You should come down to Chicago for the seminar, or just wait until we host another one in Miami.
It might happen before next summer.