Sanctions on Russia

brightheron64 said:🤔

Why Poland hasn't given Ukraine its MiG-29 fighter jets to combat Russia despite U.S. 'green light'
https://theweek.com/russo-ukrainian-...-combat-russia

DoD lower expectations of Polish warplanes for Ukraine
https://www.defensenews.com/pentagon...s-for-ukraine/

Just offering a little bit of technical perspective here:

Ukraine not Quick or Easy https://www.airforcemag.com/backfill
https://www.airforcemag.com/backfill...quick-or-easy/

People were talking about this idea before, but the Polish government and others denied it back then.
Now, though, it's appearing on official Polish government sites:

https://www.gov.pl/web/diplomacy/sta...nes-to-ukraine

Jeremy Turner9 said:It wasn't merely about trading; he was also accumulating massive debt. Up until 2008, there was still some breathing room for NGOs and various freedoms, but everything shifted once Obama invited Ukraine toward NATO. Following the strike in Ukraine in 2014, the crackdown began. As far as I can tell, the reality is that Putin isn't following the American playbook for regime change seen in the 90s; a country like that just doesn't exist in that mold...

Boris Yeltsin was actually even more chaotic; he failed to pay out pensions, while oligarchs were busy funneling all the wealth to the West, not to mention the war in Chechnya. We can't possibly know when Russia will truly be ready for democracy, though it certainly seemed to be on that path once. To the Americanophile: unlike in the USA, there is no death penalty in Russia, and Putin isn't carrying out the kind of systemic racial violence we see in certain parts of America... Therefore, what we are seeing is a specific group deliberately discriminating against people economically, socially, and in every conceivable way, effectively sending them to the electric chair without any evidence...

I suggest we stay focused on the core issue. Some intellectuals are already calling for Russia to be expelled from the Council of Europe, which would imply that the Russian government could then unilaterally reinstate the death penalty...

Listen to this.

They goaded the West into attacking Ukraine, turning places like Kharkiv into this, and now they’ll pressure them into adopting the death penalty—something they haven't used except against a handful of journalists and political dissidents.

Things were relatively quiet until 2008, aside from that one speech by Putin in Munich and the conflicts in Chechnya, Abkhazia, and Transnistria...

Revisionism is really just the hallmark of a mind clouded by propaganda.

Russia has never renounced its aggressive imperialist policies. Never.

bluemason3 said:Exactly. By that logic, the moment someone threatens an invasion, you should just roll over and surrender, because any kind of defense requires sacrifice.
Then they go ahead and blame the victims for getting hurt. They even expect them to apologize for being attacked.

Launching an offensive requires extensive preparation first... In reality, the USA and the United Kingdom gave a public green light, even going so far as to rush Putin into invading Ukraine...

It is all very easy to type away behind a keyboard while judging the tragedies of others from a distance...

Carol Johnson21 said:Someone else—maybe even you—already quoted this link and made the exact same point. Try to stay focused.

And what part of that is wrong? Dropping the thermostat by just one degree is a significant saving. Besides, winter is almost over.

What about just ditching the car 80% of the time and walking everywhere just to spite Putin?

Those sound like some real Alanford-style ideas for this situation... being a Dutch socialist, I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

brightheron64 said:Aha.

Maybe if you actually read the whole article...

"At the same time, Poland requests the United States to provide us with used aircraft with corresponding operational capabilities.

And? This has been part of the conversation from the start. Usually, everyone just talks about F-16s anyway. I don't really see the point of the comment.🤔

wearytrucker22 said:Just to throw some numbers out there: Ural crude is sitting at $94.50 today, while Brent and WTI are both hitting $123

https://topoilnews.com/

https://www.neste.com/investors/mark...ude-oil-prices

Shell is grabbing a 24% discount on the Ural oil mix, and the Germans are doing pretty much the same thing. Makes you wonder who’s actually playing it smart here and who’s just losing their minds.

I told you all... people are going to go hunting for discounted oil.

brightheron64 said:Aha.

Maybe if you actually read the whole article...

"At the same time, Poland requests the United States to provide us with used aircraft with corresponding operational capabilities.

I believe I clearly stated in my post that the Poles would receive F-16s from America in exchange. It seems some people struggle quite heavily with basic reading comprehension.

silverotter72 said:What exactly is so hard to grasp here?
To actually extract resources, they need technology—technology they’d have to purchase because they simply don't possess it, and I highly doubt anyone is just going to hand it over as a gift.
Even if they have existing wells, keeping them operational requires maintenance, which again, demands foreign tech.
If they want to mine ore at prices that actually make economic sense, they're back to square one: needing technology they don't own.
Then there's agriculture. To plant anything meaningful, you need high-yield seeds (which they buy from Americans) and the machinery, like tractors, to scale production. They pull all of that from Germany or the USA. They don't have their own. The only alternative is using low-quality seeds and outdated methods.
And even when something finally grows, albeit in much smaller quantities, they still have to harvest it. Again, more machinery, more tech, and so on.

All those oil reserves, gas, minerals, and miles of empty land don't mean a thing if they can't actually utilize them. It’s that old saying: a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. In this case, it feels like they killed the bird in their hand with a cruise missile just to try and catch the ones in the bush, only to watch the whole thing fly away.

And yes, the European Union will eventually have to pay whatever the market demands, likely at a premium. But, the EU also has its own resources that it'll now be forced to develop and utilize—something it really should have been doing a long time ago instead of relying solely on cheap handouts from neighbors. We're seeing now that "cheap" often turns out to be significantly more expensive than it looks at first glance.
It’s like what wealthy people say: "I'm not rich enough to buy cheap things." Well, I suppose the European Union has just learned that lesson the hard way.

I'm actually most curious about that first part, specifically regarding how it hits the broader economy rather than just individual households.
We'll just have to wait and see how it unfolds over the next few years.

By the way, I've always wondered why we don't just plant a bunch of nukes and call it a day to solve all our problems!

brightheron64 said:Aha.

Maybe if you actually read the whole article...

"At the same time, Poland requests the United States to provide us with used aircraft with corresponding operational capabilities.

The US doesn't actually have anything quite that specific on hand—they have much better options, certainly, but I doubt the Americans will find any reason to complain about an upgrade.

slyfox43 said:Listen to this.

They goaded the West into attacking Ukraine, turning places like Kharkiv into this, and now they’ll pressure them into adopting the death penalty—something they haven't used except against a handful of journalists and political dissidents.

Things were relatively quiet until 2008, aside from that one speech by Putin in Munich and the conflicts in Chechnya, Abkhazia, and Transnistria...

Revisionism is really just the hallmark of a mind clouded by propaganda.

Russia has never renounced its aggressive imperialist policies. Never.

For the trolls and the Putinophiles, everything Russia does is somehow the fault of the West! That "evil" West! As if without the West, Russia would be the very embodiment of freedom, democracy, peace, and prosperity. But because of the West, you end up spending a few years in a cell if you dare suggest that a war is... actually a war. And you should be grateful there isn't a death penalty, because when they ship you off to a gulag in Siberia, you just die of the cold—which is arguably a much milder way to go compared to the tyranny of the West. Meanwhile, the EU is out in the town squares executing its prisoners and dissidents with rapid-fire artillery!

The CIA has just released an image of the pilot known as the "Ghost of Moscow," the very individual responsible for crippling the entire Russian economy in a mere week

https://twitter.com/Sputnik_Not/stat...jgJvv_q5g&s=19

Anthony Hill5 said:The CIA has just released an image of the pilot known as the "Ghost of Moscow," the very individual responsible for crippling the entire Russian economy in a mere week

https://twitter.com/Sputnik_Not/stat...jgJvv_q5g&s=19

Give me a break. Honestly, even Rambo wouldn't hold a candle to this guy. I suspect even Chuck Norris couldn't pull off what he managed to do. To effectively dismantle Russia's standing while simultaneously pulling the EU and the West closer together internally? It's almost hard to wrap my head around it.

bluemason3 As if I had more to say...
Well, if we’re being honest, much of the discussion surrounding that option from the very beginning has been little more than empty talk, though the F-16 seems to be the one everyone keeps bringing up... I honestly can't quite wrap my head around what the point of that comment was meant to be... 🤔

That’s exactly why I included the link in the first place...

The Pentagon and White House...
The Pentagon and White House seem to be managing our expectations quite a bit lately regarding those Polish warplanes intended for Ukraine... It feels like there’s a growing sense that we shouldn't hold our breath for a massive influx of hardware just yet...
By Joe Gould
March 8, 12:00 AM
The latest reporting from Defense News suggests that the Pentagon and White House might be scaling back their expectations regarding how much those Polish warplanes can actually contribute to the situation in Ukraine, according to recent comments from Joe Gould... It feels like we're seeing a bit of a reality check regarding the immediate impact of foreign military hardware on the ground, which is always a sobering thought when you consider the sheer scale of what's happening over there...

I have to admit, I find myself leaning a bit more toward what’s being written over in... Defense News

slyfox43 As if we haven't heard this one before...
We don't see anything like that in the States; instead, we have options that are significantly better, though I’m fairly certain the Americans won't be raising any objections about it...

Well, if we're following this logic, I suppose Harry S. Truman will just make his way over to Trieste, and then an F-18 will fly straight over to Poland... which isn't exactly a long trip at all... 😁

brightheron64 As I have previously observed:
That is precisely why I provided the link.

The Pentagon and White House continue to operate within their own sphere of influence, seemingly detached from the realities on the ground. One must wonder, does anyone in the halls of power actually grasp the gravity of the situation we are facing? They move with such calculated indifference, issuing directives that feel more like academic exercises than strategic necessities. How much longer can this level of detachment be sustained before the entire structure begins to buckle under the weight of its own indecision?
Is anyone else watching this slow-motion train wreck unfolding at the highest levels of our government? It seems the Pentagon and White House have suddenly decided to dial back their ambitions, effectively lowering expectations regarding the deployment of Polish warplanes to aid Ukraine. One has to wonder: where exactly is the strategic backbone in all of this? Are we simply watching a calculated retreat under the guise of "managing expectations," or is this just another instance of bureaucratic hesitation stalling much-needed momentum? How can we expect any meaningful shift in the theater if our own leadership is already preemptively tempering the very support they once suggested was on the table? It feels less like a tactical adjustment and more like a surrender to political inertia.
DoD lower expectations of Polish warplanes for Ukraine by Joe Gould mar 8
March 8, 12:00 AM
Is anyone actually surprised by this latest development from the Pentagon? According to a recent report from Defense News, the Department of Defense is essentially telling us that we should temper our expectations regarding how much those Polish warplanes will actually contribute to the fight in Ukraine. It seems the goalposts are being moved once again, isn't it? One has to wonder: why is there such a persistent pattern of lowering the bar just when the situation demands more decisive action? Are we meant to simply accept these diminishing returns as the new standard for international support? It feels like a calculated maneuver to manage public perception while simultaneously scaling back the actual impact of military aid. If the objective is truly to provide meaningful assistance, how can one justify such a blatant attempt to dampen the very momentum required to succeed? It’s a frustrating cycle of high-stakes promises followed by immediate, measured retreats.

I find myself leaning much more toward the perspective presented in... Defense News

So, we are expected to believe that Harry S. Truman will personally make his way to Trieste just so an F-18 can complete its flight path over to Poland? Is that really the logic we are being sold now? It certainly isn't as if it's a vast distance, is it?

So, am I really expected to believe that you place more faith in the reporting found in Defense News than in the actual statement issued by the Polish MVP? Is that truly where your credibility lies? 😁

Is it pure wishful thinking, a desperate bout of denial, or perhaps something even more sinister? Is this some sort of misplaced devotion to Putk?

Anthony Hill5 said:

brightheron64 As I have previously observed:
That is precisely why I provided the link.

The Pentagon and White House continue to operate within their own sphere of influence, seemingly detached from the realities on the ground. One must wonder, does anyone in the halls of power actually grasp the gravity of the situation we are facing? They move with such calculated indifference, issuing directives that feel more like academic exercises than strategic necessities. How much longer can this level of detachment be sustained before the entire structure begins to buckle under the weight of its own indecision?
Is anyone else watching this slow-motion train wreck unfolding at the highest levels of our government? It seems the Pentagon and White House have suddenly decided to dial back their ambitions, effectively lowering expectations regarding the deployment of Polish warplanes to aid Ukraine. One has to wonder: where exactly is the strategic backbone in all of this? Are we simply watching a calculated retreat under the guise of "managing expectations," or is this just another instance of bureaucratic hesitation stalling much-needed momentum? How can we expect any meaningful shift in the theater if our own leadership is already preemptively tempering the very support they once suggested was on the table? It feels less like a tactical adjustment and more like a surrender to political inertia.
DoD lower expectations of Polish warplanes for Ukraine by Joe Gould mar 8
March 8, 12:00 AM
Is anyone actually surprised by this latest development from the Pentagon? According to a recent report from Defense News, the Department of Defense is essentially telling us that we should temper our expectations regarding how much those Polish warplanes will actually contribute to the fight in Ukraine. It seems the goalposts are being moved once again, isn't it? One has to wonder: why is there such a persistent pattern of lowering the bar just when the situation demands more decisive action? Are we meant to simply accept these diminishing returns as the new standard for international support? It feels like a calculated maneuver to manage public perception while simultaneously scaling back the actual impact of military aid. If the objective is truly to provide meaningful assistance, how can one justify such a blatant attempt to dampen the very momentum required to succeed? It’s a frustrating cycle of high-stakes promises followed by immediate, measured retreats.

I find myself leaning much more toward the perspective presented in... Defense News

So, we are expected to believe that Harry S. Truman will personally make his way to Trieste just so an F-18 can complete its flight path over to Poland? Is that really the logic we are being sold now? It certainly isn't as if it's a vast distance, is it?

So, am I really expected to believe that you place more faith in the reporting found in Defense News than in the actual statement issued by the Polish MVP? Is that truly where your credibility lies? 😁

Is it pure wishful thinking, a desperate bout of denial, or perhaps something even more sinister? Is this some sort of misplaced devotion to Putk?

Look, I don't even fully trust my own MVP, let alone anything coming out of Poland... 😉

What's the deal with companies supposedly ditching Russia but still cutting checks to their employees there? 🤔 It's pretty obvious these "sanctions" are just for show since they're clearly banking on a quick return. These kinds of sanctions don't do squat—instead of actually hitting Russia where it hurts by firing everyone and making a real social impact, they're just playing pretend.

Jeremy Turner9 said:It wasn't merely about trading; he was also accumulating massive debt. Up until 2008, there was still some breathing room for NGOs and various freedoms, but everything shifted once Obama invited Ukraine toward NATO. Following the strike in Ukraine in 2014, the crackdown began. As far as I can tell, the reality is that Putin isn't following the American playbook for regime change seen in the 90s; a country like that just doesn't exist in that mold...

Boris Yeltsin was actually even more chaotic; he failed to pay out pensions, while oligarchs were busy funneling all the wealth to the West, not to mention the war in Chechnya. We can't possibly know when Russia will truly be ready for democracy, though it certainly seemed to be on that path once. To the Americanophile: unlike in the USA, there is no death penalty in Russia, and Putin isn't carrying out the kind of systemic racial violence we see in certain parts of America... Therefore, what we are seeing is a specific group deliberately discriminating against people economically, socially, and in every conceivable way, effectively sending them to the electric chair without any evidence...

I suggest we stay focused on the core issue. Some intellectuals are already calling for Russia to be expelled from the Council of Europe, which would imply that the Russian government could then unilaterally reinstate the death penalty...

Oh, sure, just a convenient way for the Russian government to thin out its own people. And if they happen to kill someone by accident, I’m sure it won’t be like how Americans do it through mass shootings—it’ll definitely be reserved for those who actually deserve it, you know, the critics and the folks standing up to Putin. But let's be real, that's not happening.
I mean, look at the executives over at Gazprom, who lately have developed this nasty habit of hanging themselves. Or take this poor soul who supposedly jumped out of a window, which was just a total coincidence since he happened to be a critic of Putin. I guess he just picked that up from his doctors. Or even better, consider the whole string of journalists or vocal critics
...

brightheron64 said:Look, I don't even fully trust my own MVP, let alone anything coming out of Poland... 😉

So, you don't buy what MVP Poland put out today, yet somehow you take everything JUCER says as gospel.

It’s pure wishful thinking, much like Anthony Hill5 suggested. A messy situation, to say the least.

slyfox43 said:So, you don't buy what MVP Poland put out today, yet somehow you take everything JUCER says as gospel.

It’s pure wishful thinking, much like Anthony Hill5 suggested. A messy situation, to say the least.

Essentially, what just happened is this:

The Polish announcement was met with relative silence from Washington officialdom. The U.S. European Command and State Department declined to comment.
A Pentagon official emailed that “we’ve seen the Polish government’s announcement,” adding, “we have nothing to offer at this time.”

https://www.politico.com/news/2022/0...-help-00015259

As Anthony Hill5 pointed out, it's all just wishful thinking. Quite a difficult situation to be in...

bluemason3 said:The Polish government's official pages merely stated they have reached a decision regarding their willingness to enter such an arrangement; they certainly did not claim the deal was finalized, nor did they suggest that the USA has actually completed—or even possesses the logistical capacity to complete—its portion of the task.

Until the Americans issue a formal threat, until a viable method for providing replacements is established, and until the ink is dry on the contracts, is this really a settled matter?

Could there perhaps be a provision for interim airspace coverage over Poland by allies while they wait for their new aircraft to arrive—a process that, let’s face it, cannot happen overnight?

Furthermore, one must seriously consider what capabilities the Ukrainian side actually possesses to manage, secure, and integrate such hardware...

I am uncertain if this can be resolved within a few days, but if this drags on—if we hit a lull during the muddy season and it takes several months to sort out the logistics—well, we shall see.

I would argue that it is already a done deal.

Poland has agreed to hand over all of its MIG-29 fighter jets to a US airbase "immediately and free of charge" as part of a plan to provide aircraft to the Ukrainians.

Washington has been looking at a proposal under which Poland would supply Ukraine with Soviet-era fighters and in turn receive American F-16s to make up for their loss.

Just a few days ago, the Americans stated that the onus was on Poland to make the final call, precisely because doing so could turn them into a direct target for Russia, given that Moscow has declared any nation providing aircraft or utilizing their airbases for the Ukrainians will be viewed as a belligerent party in the conflict.

It is quite obvious that the Russians have failed to intimidate the Poles.