Arming Ukraine

Thomas Nelson25 said:Honestly, they might be better off taking those old howitzers from East Germany..
Or... just stick to stuff they actually know (or can learn fast) how to use.
Basically, give them anything "heavy" from the USSR era.

Besides, they were asking for tanks too—presumably, that's happening behind the scenes.
The real headache is Canada—they won't let anything transit through their territory, and they haven't even donated a single round of ammo.

The only thing I don't get is how they think they can actually deploy these things quickly. Most Western tanks run with a four-person crew and they weigh about 20 tons more than what's currently on the ground. Sure, you could probably scavenge some old Soviet junk from former Eastern Bloc countries, but given what they're working with right now? Those Ukrainian farmers are productive, but they aren't turning dirt into heavy armor.

They should be asking for ammo instead. It'd actually make a difference.

I can't help but wonder—if Ukraine actually gets those tanks from the West, how much of an impact would they even make?
Hasn't it already been pretty clear that they’re kind of sluggish and easy targets for the Ukrainians? It feels like the same thing would happen in reverse.
By the time they even reach the front lines, they’d just be sitting ducks for Russian air strikes. Plus, you've got the whole logistical nightmare to deal with—constant supplies of fuel, ammo, and so on.
The Russians have been struggling with their own supply chains lately, but then there's the issue of being exposed to anti-tank weaponry—do the Russians even have much defense against that?
Would these tanks honestly provide any real advantage at this stage?

Forget about tanks. These British howitzers are moving 37 miles at highway speeds and come loaded with high-tech electronics plus integrated radar systems.

casualtiger2 said:I can't help but wonder—if Ukraine actually gets those tanks from the West, how much of an impact would they even make?
Hasn't it already been pretty clear that they’re kind of sluggish and easy targets for the Ukrainians? It feels like the same thing would happen in reverse.
By the time they even reach the front lines, they’d just be sitting ducks for Russian air strikes. Plus, you've got the whole logistical nightmare to deal with—constant supplies of fuel, ammo, and so on.
The Russians have been struggling with their own supply chains lately, but then there's the issue of being exposed to anti-tank weaponry—do the Russians even have much defense against that?
Would these tanks honestly provide any real advantage at this stage?

Look, having a tank isn't enough. You need to know how to actually drive them and use them effectively—integrated with infantry and other support gear. It’s about the whole system, not just one machine.
Just look at the way the Russians were bragging a few years back:
https://technerium.ru/hr/leopard-2-p...ih-otnoshenii/

Walter Baker2 said:Forget about tanks. These British howitzers are moving 37 miles at highway speeds and come loaded with high-tech electronics plus integrated radar systems.

If we send those, we’d better be ready to bundle them with plenty of ammunition, wouldn't we? Western artillery relies on the 155mm standard, whereas the Russians stick to 152mm, so I can't say for sure if those smaller rounds will actually fit in the Vickers systems, though maybe they will.🤷

Kenneth Cruz67 said:It’s entirely possible it might be some kind of leasing agreement🤔

I really don't think anything is being billed to Ukraine right now; maybe, if the war ends and Ukraine manages to remain a sovereign nation, then perhaps there will be some sort of settlement or billing down the road, but for now, I doubt it.

These howitzers aren't exactly cheap, are they? And then there's the matter of delivering NATO-standard ammunition—can we even be sure the old Soviet or Russian shells will fit, or is that just wishful thinking? Regardless, isn't it better that Ukraine gets whatever they can get their hands on at a time like this?

Benjamin Taylor6 said:Look, having a tank isn't enough. You need to know how to actually drive them and use them effectively—integrated with infantry and other support gear. It’s about the whole system, not just one machine.
Just look at the way the Russians were bragging a few years back:
https://technerium.ru/hr/leopard-2-p...ih-otnoshenii/

And clearly, they've put those theories into practice quite successfully.

The Javelins absolutely tore them apart. Honestly, tanks are basically just museum pieces at this point—nothing but expensive scrap metal. The future belongs to infantry squads carrying guided missiles and rifles, backed by some kind of impenetrable, high-tech armor.

Walter Baker2 said:Forget about tanks. These British howitzers are moving 37 miles at highway speeds and come loaded with high-tech electronics plus integrated radar systems.

The Ukrainian military inherited about 300 of those similar self-propelled howitzers from the old USSR days, not to mention another thousand or so of various other calibers, big and small.
A German M1 Abrams system would be much more advanced, I suppose.

Maybe the better way to help right now, in the middle of all this fighting, would just be providing them with more of those Soviet-style howitzers they already have—the kind their crews actually know how to use and where the ammo is already sitting in warehouses...

Walter Baker2 said:The Javelins absolutely tore them apart. Honestly, tanks are basically just museum pieces at this point—nothing but expensive scrap metal. The future belongs to infantry squads carrying guided missiles and rifles, backed by some kind of impenetrable, high-tech armor.

The whole arms race between artillery and armor has been grinding on for two centuries now.
It’s hard to imagine it just... stops.

Roger Fowler said:If we send those, we’d better be ready to bundle them with plenty of ammunition, wouldn't we? Western artillery relies on the 155mm standard, whereas the Russians stick to 152mm, so I can't say for sure if those smaller rounds will actually fit in the Vickers systems, though maybe they will.🤷

Of course they won't fit.

Timothy Nelson5 said:The Ukrainian military inherited about 300 of those similar self-propelled howitzers from the old USSR days, not to mention another thousand or so of various other calibers, big and small.
A German M1 Abrams system would be much more advanced, I suppose.

Maybe the better way to help right now, in the middle of all this fighting, would just be providing them with more of those Soviet-style howitzers they already have—the kind their crews actually know how to use and where the ammo is already sitting in warehouses...

Plus, it means sending ammo they can actually grab from the Russians.

It’s wild when you think about the sheer amount of money the USA poured into the military in Afghanistan, only to see everything fall apart in just a few days.

Kate Lewis3 said:Plus, it means sending ammo they can actually grab from the Russians.

They’ve been capturing howitzers before... some completely untouched, others with just minor damage.
And even the ones that are totally trashed, maybe you could repair a few or at least salvage some parts...

Kate Lewis3 said:The only thing I don't get is how they think they can actually deploy these things quickly. Most Western tanks run with a four-person crew and they weigh about 20 tons more than what's currently on the ground. Sure, you could probably scavenge some old Soviet junk from former Eastern Bloc countries, but given what they're working with right now? Those Ukrainian farmers are productive, but they aren't turning dirt into heavy armor.

They should be asking for ammo instead. It'd actually make a difference.

(I'm reading that they're repairing tanks that aren't totally trashed, so they'd probably use any tank from that family—licenses, old T-series stuff from the USSR)

As for those wheeled guns... they call them self-propelled howitzers, if I remember right 🤔 though I never really knew the exact definition. I think it's just a general term.

They need something similar to an M1 Abrams
The main perk is mobility.

The Mexicans have a cheaper version.

Thomas Nelson25 said:(I'm reading that they're repairing tanks that aren't totally trashed, so they'd probably use any tank from that family—licenses, old T-series stuff from the USSR)

As for those wheeled guns... they call them self-propelled howitzers, if I remember right 🤔 though I never really knew the exact definition. I think it's just a general term.

They need something similar to an M1 Abrams
The main perk is mobility.

The Mexicans have a cheaper version.

P
The Ukrainians have everything from Forget-me-nots and Acacias to Msta, Pion, Nona, and Hyacinth-S systems

Thomas Nelson25 said:(I'm reading that they're repairing tanks that aren't totally trashed, so they'd probably use any tank from that family—licenses, old T-series stuff from the USSR)

As for those wheeled guns... they call them self-propelled howitzers, if I remember right 🤔 though I never really knew the exact definition. I think it's just a general term.

They need something similar to an M1 Abrams
The main perk is mobility.

The Mexicans have a cheaper version.

There are plenty of American M109 self-propelled howitzers out there. Honestly, any version would help Ukraine, they just need to find some surplus somewhere.

The Germans used them until their own self-propelled howitzers arrived. I wonder where they all ended up.

It’s more like a first aid kit solution. They'll probably build their own stuff later anyway.

Morgan Wright5 said:P
The Ukrainians have everything from Forget-me-nots and Acacias to Msta, Pion, Nona, and Hyacinth-S systems

The real question is whether UA can even keep those systems running given the damage from the war. It feels like the Russians "denazified" everything possible by hitting the factories and service centers.
The main thing is that they hold onto that know-how so they can jump right into rebuilding their industry once things settle down.

They really need some kind of variant capable of firing those old Soviet 152mm shells. If we're going to start donating Western hardware, doesn't that mean we also have to provide the matching 155mm ammo? It’s the same story when it comes to spare parts and basic supplies. Honestly, I'd bet anything there's a massive stockpile of that old Soviet gear sitting somewhere in the Middle Eastern countries.

Hopefully, Putin will end up nudging Western nations to speed up their weapons production—if only for the sake of the bottom line.

boldotter2 said:There are plenty of American M109 self-propelled howitzers out there. Honestly, any version would help Ukraine, they just need to find some surplus somewhere.

The Germans used them until their own self-propelled howitzers arrived. I wonder where they all ended up.

It’s more like a first aid kit solution. They'll probably build their own stuff later anyway.

The real question is whether UA can even keep those systems running given the damage from the war. It feels like the Russians "denazified" everything possible by hitting the factories and service centers.
The main thing is that they hold onto that know-how so they can jump right into rebuilding their industry once things settle down.

Are you referring to the Ukrainian defense industry? If the reports are accurate, most of that capacity has been wiped out. It’s hardly surprising that those heavy Russian cruise missiles have been consistently hitting precisely selected strategic military targets from the start. Just because the Ukrainians aren't broadcasting every single hit—and we all know why—doesn't mean those missiles didn't find their marks.

https://twitter.com/thesiriusreport/...20714260307970

If you look at the broader picture, Twitter is constantly ablaze with footage of destroyed Russian tanks and armored vehicles. But at the end of the day, we both know who is actually absorbing the massive military losses here.☕