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Arming Ukraine

Started by Ashley Ramirez4 · · 👁 8 views · 831 replies

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Participants Ashley Ramirez4silentsurfer3Hannah Williams8velvetcyclist95Kevin Hughes2Paul Patel95Jeremy Peterson4Tyler Jones6Jessica Morris6Richard Wilson4Rachel Barrett8Larry Newman4rowdytiger13nimbleharbor10Linda Harris59silverotter72Joseph Clark37John Perez13Carl Lee27Andrew Miller102driftingtinkerDouglas Perez3bluemason3Richard Cooper3 …
Nancy Gomez26 Nancy Gomez26 Regular
787 messages
joined Jan 2018
#81 ·
goldendrifter11 said:
The deal would involve Ukraine receiving Russian-made warplanes from Germany, which would in turn be given F-16s by the US.

That sounds like a massive win for Poland. 👍

Do we still have any of those MiGs left in the inventory? 🙂

(And here's the link to the article—it’s free to read, no paywall.

The ones currently in our inventory? The Ukrainians won't even bother bringing them in for routine maintenance, let alone attempting to fly them. If we actually possessed the F-16s that Poland has, they probably wouldn't even be looking at the Rafale.
Nancy Gomez26 Nancy Gomez26 Regular
787 messages
joined Jan 2018
#82 ·
silverotter72 said:It’s really more of a win-win-win scenario, I suppose.
Either we see a steady reduction in Russian equipment, or maybe Poland gets an upgrade with some newer aircraft—though I highly doubt they'll be getting anything straight off the assembly line—or, at the very least, we end up helping Ukrainians with hardware they actually know how to operate and feel comfortable using.

As for how much this actually helps the Ukrainians? Who knows. Aviation isn't just about dropping off a jet; you need a massive logistical tail. If they hand over planes, they have to provide the maintenance and training required to make them effective.
But the real objective here is sending a message to the thug in Moscow: nobody gives a damn about his twisted, public threats. Even he needs to feel the sting of escalation. In the end, it might even serve him well as an excuse: "We didn't realize Poland was sending jets to Ukraine, so we had to scale back the special operation." A good excuse is worth its weight in gold.😉
Bryan Booth82 Bryan Booth82 Regular
483 messages
joined Feb 2024
#83 ·


Now this is actually interesting.🤔

lp
bluemason3 bluemason3 Veteran
1.1K messages
joined Jun 2016
#84 ·
Bryan Booth82 said:


Now this is actually interesting.🤔

lp

Who knows if it's accurate, but I don't think it would be all that surprising if there were people volunteering for Russian paramilitary groups in the Donbas.

Since Israelis have mandatory military service, anyone could potentially volunteer for Ukraine, and they have plenty of citizens who moved there from both Ukraine and Russia.
Richard Wilson4 Richard Wilson4 Veteran
2K messages
joined Sep 2009
#85 ·
goldendrifter11 said:
The deal would involve Ukraine receiving Russian-made warplanes from Germany, which would in turn be given F-16s by the US.

That sounds like a massive win for Poland. 👍

Do we still have any of those MiGs left in the inventory? 🙂

(And here's the link to the article—it’s free to read, no paywall.

Honestly, I don't think it'll lead to anything.
I doubt those planes are actually showing up, at least not during this stage of the war.
Maria Moore Maria Moore Member
15 messages
joined Feb 2022
#86 ·
"Any nation that gives Ukraine the green light to use its airfields to launch strikes against Russia should be considered a direct combatant," a spokesperson for the Russian Ministry of Defense claimed today, specifically calling out Romania for allowing those landings.
Bryan Booth82 Bryan Booth82 Regular
483 messages
joined Feb 2024
#87 ·
Maria Moore said:"Any nation that gives Ukraine the green light to use its airfields to launch strikes against Russia should be considered a direct combatant," a spokesperson for the Russian Ministry of Defense claimed today, specifically calling out Romania for allowing those landings.

Oh, really? I had absolutely no idea anyone was attacking Russia. 🤔How incredibly shocking!
Best regards
nimbleharbor10 nimbleharbor10 Active Member
79 messages
joined Nov 2024
#88 ·
silverotter72 said:It’s perfectly plausible for a plane or a tank to be labeled as "not serviceable." These are complex machines that demand massive amounts of resources just to operate, let alone the constant maintenance required even when they're sitting idle. When you're dealing with aging hardware—and I think we can all agree that Germany has plenty of that—you eventually reach a point where you don't even want to bother pouring money into them. It seems like Germany has been looking for ways to swap out the old stuff for newer models for quite some time now.
Rifles, grenades, and other small-arms nonsense can last a long time and require very little upkeep. That's precisely why it strikes me as odd that any part of that inventory would be left out in the humidity... at the end of the day, that's just dangerous. There is a significant difference between letting a tank or a jet rust away and letting a pile of explosives degrade. You simply can't compare the two.

If my memory serves me right, the Arrow systems (formerly East German) were slated for destruction, but due to a lack of funding, they were likely just left where they stood until the disposal process finally caught up with them. They aren't going to spontaneously combust while just sitting there.
Everything currently in stock needs a thorough inspection; sending over junk that doesn't work would be an embarrassment for Germany.

Furthermore, the US Armed Forces—or rather, the German military in this context—is facing massive hurdles regarding equipment shortages and budget constraints. A fresh injection of $100 billion should theoretically fix that, allowing them to buy up a mountain of hardware, though God knows who will actually be qualified to operate it. I know for a fact that pay scales in the military were (and probably still are) significantly lower than those in the police force, which offers better benefits, let alone how much worse they are compared to the private sector when you consider technical roles requiring specialized skills.
nimbleharbor10 nimbleharbor10 Active Member
79 messages
joined Nov 2024
#89 ·
Kate Lewis3 said:Poland’s rocking F-16s, while the US is barely scraping by with some old junk. I mean, let's not insult the Ukrainians.

Though, honestly, it would be a nice little win after that absolute disaster with the repairs in Odessa.

We won't, because we have a dedicated specialist sitting in a high position whose entire job seems to be insulting people constantly; he's already insulted the Ukrainians, but he could certainly manage to do it several more times.

Kate Lewis3 said:Poland’s rocking F-16s, while the US is barely scraping by with some old junk. I mean, let's not insult the Ukrainians.

Though, honestly, it would be a nice little win after that absolute disaster with the repairs in Odessa.

The F-4 Phantom II isn't a completely impossible option, but attempting to fly them against Su-30s and dense Air Defense is likely bordering on suicidal.

The real question is whether any F-16s can actually be found to replace those Polish F-16s on short notice—perhaps pulling from a National Guard unit, given the promised future upgrades—because there simply is no time to manufacture them. Years of small orders have driven production capacity down to an absolute minimum.

At one point, the USA purchased about twenty of those jets from what I believe was Moldova, though who knows what kind of condition they're actually in.

It also remains to be seen if those 30 F-16s will make any meaningful difference for Ukraine. If they aren't paired correctly, a single Iskander strike and they're gone. It would probably be more effective for them to secure better Air Defense systems first, but NATO is already facing its own shortages and relies heavily on aircraft for airspace control. You can't just mass-produce those quickly either, because no sane company is going to keep production lines running hot without guaranteed orders.
placidrider48 placidrider48 Active Member
84 messages
joined Oct 2011
#90 ·
nimbleharbor10 said:We won't, because we have a dedicated specialist sitting in a high position whose entire job seems to be insulting people constantly; he's already insulted the Ukrainians, but he could certainly manage to do it several more times.

The F-4 Phantom II isn't a completely impossible option, but attempting to fly them against Su-30s and dense Air Defense is likely bordering on suicidal.

The real question is whether any F-16s can actually be found to replace those Polish F-16s on short notice—perhaps pulling from a National Guard unit, given the promised future upgrades—because there simply is no time to manufacture them. Years of small orders have driven production capacity down to an absolute minimum.

At one point, the USA purchased about twenty of those jets from what I believe was Moldova, though who knows what kind of condition they're actually in.

It also remains to be seen if those 30 F-16s will make any meaningful difference for Ukraine. If they aren't paired correctly, a single Iskander strike and they're gone. It would probably be more effective for them to secure better Air Defense systems first, but NATO is already facing its own shortages and relies heavily on aircraft for airspace control. You can't just mass-produce those quickly either, because no sane company is going to keep production lines running hot without guaranteed orders.

Ukrainian Air Defense is actually holding its own. They managed to hide it from the initial Russian strikes, and now they're causing headaches—forcing the Russians to fly low so they can pick them off with MANPADS. Given how much the Russian Air Force is struggling with operational issues, a bunch of MiG's would probably help the Ukrainians a ton, since they can only operate them sporadically right now. I just don't know what kind of standards the Slovak or Polish MiG-29s are actually up to.
Kate Lewis3 Kate Lewis3 Active Member
159 messages
joined Feb 2022
#91 ·
nimbleharbor10 said:We won't, because we have a dedicated specialist sitting in a high position whose entire job seems to be insulting people constantly; he's already insulted the Ukrainians, but he could certainly manage to do it several more times.

The F-4 Phantom II isn't a completely impossible option, but attempting to fly them against Su-30s and dense Air Defense is likely bordering on suicidal.

The real question is whether any F-16s can actually be found to replace those Polish F-16s on short notice—perhaps pulling from a National Guard unit, given the promised future upgrades—because there simply is no time to manufacture them. Years of small orders have driven production capacity down to an absolute minimum.

At one point, the USA purchased about twenty of those jets from what I believe was Moldova, though who knows what kind of condition they're actually in.

It also remains to be seen if those 30 F-16s will make any meaningful difference for Ukraine. If they aren't paired correctly, a single Iskander strike and they're gone. It would probably be more effective for them to secure better Air Defense systems first, but NATO is already facing its own shortages and relies heavily on aircraft for airspace control. You can't just mass-produce those quickly either, because no sane company is going to keep production lines running hot without guaranteed orders.

If you listen to Wikipedia, they were sitting on maybe 37 before the invasion started. Sounds like the Russians managed to snag some of them on the ground, so getting 30 would probably actually put them ahead of where they started.
silverotter72 silverotter72 Active Member
126 messages
joined Mar 2022
#92 ·
Nancy Gomez26 said:As for how much this actually helps the Ukrainians? Who knows. Aviation isn't just about dropping off a jet; you need a massive logistical tail. If they hand over planes, they have to provide the maintenance and training required to make them effective.
But the real objective here is sending a message to the thug in Moscow: nobody gives a damn about his twisted, public threats. Even he needs to feel the sting of escalation. In the end, it might even serve him well as an excuse: "We didn't realize Poland was sending jets to Ukraine, so we had to scale back the special operation." A good excuse is worth its weight in gold.😉

From what I understand, NATO surveillance aircraft—I can't recall the specific designation right now, maybe a Global Hawk or something similar—are patrolling the border between Ukraine and Poland 24/7. The Ukrainians are certainly getting plenty of support in that regard.
silverotter72 silverotter72 Active Member
126 messages
joined Mar 2022
#93 ·
nimbleharbor10 said:If my memory serves me right, the Arrow systems (formerly East German) were slated for destruction, but due to a lack of funding, they were likely just left where they stood until the disposal process finally caught up with them. They aren't going to spontaneously combust while just sitting there.
Everything currently in stock needs a thorough inspection; sending over junk that doesn't work would be an embarrassment for Germany.

Furthermore, the US Armed Forces—or rather, the German military in this context—is facing massive hurdles regarding equipment shortages and budget constraints. A fresh injection of $100 billion should theoretically fix that, allowing them to buy up a mountain of hardware, though God knows who will actually be qualified to operate it. I know for a fact that pay scales in the military were (and probably still are) significantly lower than those in the police force, which offers better benefits, let alone how much worse they are compared to the private sector when you consider technical roles requiring specialized skills.

Moisture and explosives are really not something anyone would ever just leave lying around. To let them sit there? Sure, maybe. But leaving them exposed to such terrible conditions? No way, because that’s a massive security risk for the Americans. Honestly... I guess I'd like to see at least one photo of that before I actually buy it. I mean, nobody can convince me that the losing side wouldn't have snapped a picture and dumped it online by now. Just look at what we see day in and day out... it's almost like a live broadcast of hand-to-hand combat, all captured in 4K by private drones.
Carl Lee27 Carl Lee27 Regular
368 messages
joined Feb 2024
#94 ·
The only thing that actually makes sense to me here is if someone working in diplomacy suddenly remembered they had those Arrows sitting around and decided to offer them up to the Ukrainians before anyone even bothered to check if they were actually in good working order.
At least now they have a chance to make things right. Word on the street is that about fifty Cheetahs might be headed to Ukraine pretty soon.

https://militaryleak.com/2022/03/02/...ag-to-ukraine/
https://www.handelsblatt.com/politik.../28128098.html
Anthony Smith7 Anthony Smith7 Newcomer
2 messages
joined Mar 2022
#95 ·
The real move here would be for the US to hand over some long-range air defense systems—specifically Patriot and THAAD. We’re talking about being able to pluck planes and missiles right out of the sky from 150 or 200 kilometers away. It would allow them to establish "no-fly zones" where Russian jets simply can't fly unless they're looking to get swatted by ground-to-air missiles.

Look, if the Russians manage to encircle cities, you're forced out into the open. If you want to break through an encirclement, deliver supplies and reinforcements, pull troops back, or mass them up for a counter-offensive, you have to go through open fields. And that is exactly what the Russians are banking on, given their dominance in open terrain.

That’s where heavy-hitting, long-range anti-air missiles could be the ultimate gamechanger. They’d give Ukrainians the breathing room to maneuver in the open without being picked off, while simultaneously shielding cities from heavy bombardment.

The million-dollar question is whether the West actually wants to—or even can—send them, considering how incredibly expensive and high-tech this gear is.

Take the Patriot: a single battery runs about $500 million. Back in 2019, Poland inked a massive $10 billion deal with the Americans to get their hands on them.

Then there's THAAD—you're looking at nearly a billion dollars per battery.

Beyond the price tag, there's the logistical nightmare. How much training time is required? Can these units actually integrate with existing Ukrainian radar networks? What kind of specialized radar is needed, and are the standard radars that come built-in with the systems enough to do the job? Maybe the US could funnel some retired specialists or veterans over via private agencies acting as contractors, or perhaps even run a covert operation to handle the training and operation directly.
Joseph Clark37 Joseph Clark37 Active Member
238 messages
joined Feb 2020
#96 ·
Too expensive, too complicated, and there just isn't enough training time. In my view, the only way this works is if they managed to strike a deal with the Slovaks or Bulgarians to hand over their S-300s—assuming they're actually functional and the Ukrainians have crews ready to operate them... though I doubt those countries would part with such systems so easily.
Carl Lee27 Carl Lee27 Regular
368 messages
joined Feb 2024
#97 ·
I’ve been chewing on that exact same idea myself—this whole notion of transferring air defense systems. Though, if we're being honest, Ukraine is probably sitting at number two in all of Europe when it comes to that specific capability.
It’s a breeze to hand over some MANPADS, sure, but once you start talking about those complex, high-level systems, they’re going to need serious time for training. Beyond the S-300s coming over from Slovakia and Bulgaria, I’ve heard whispers that those Buk systems from Finland are also in pretty solid shape and ready to go.
Anthony Smith7 Anthony Smith7 Newcomer
2 messages
joined Mar 2022
#98 ·
Joseph Clark37 said:Too expensive, too complicated, and there just isn't enough training time. In my view, the only way this works is if they managed to strike a deal with the Slovaks or Bulgarians to hand over their S-300s—assuming they're actually functional and the Ukrainians have crews ready to operate them... though I doubt those countries would part with such systems so easily.

Ukraine has its own S-300 units left over from the USSR era, but they’ve clearly been trashed or are pretty much useless at this point.

Besides, we're talking about 90s tech here. It's Russian tech, specifically. We used to parade similar stuff around during local holidays back in '95 when a Super Nintendo was considered the peak of high-tech.

The Russians have likely tweaked their most advanced jets and missiles specifically to dodge or jam the S-300, after all, they're the ones who built the damn things. They probably even rigged their own systems to sniff out where those Ukrainian S-300 radars are emitting signals from, then just leveled the locations.

And obviously, nobody's selling them a modern S-400 system.

Some of those Ukrainian S-300s probably survived well enough to help take down some Russian planes and missiles, but you have to wonder to what extent.

A system that can swat aircraft and missiles out of the sky from 300 kilometers away would be worth its weight in gold for Ukraine. Maybe if the Slovak or Bulgarian versions were modernized enough to handle cutting-edge jets.
But again, that assumes those countries would even consider giving them up, which would mean the US would have to compensate them with Patriots and billions of dollars in value.
nimbleharbor10 nimbleharbor10 Active Member
79 messages
joined Nov 2024
#99 ·
Nobody is just sitting around with extra Patriot, S-200, S-300, or especially THAAD systems ready to be donated. These assets were acquired in limited quantities and serve as the backbone of their own air defense; nobody wants to hand them over and leave themselves completely exposed. When you look at non-Russian hardware, you also have to account for the fact that Ukrainians would need extensive training first, a process that drags on for months. Furthermore, these heavy systems are incredibly expensive and would become immediate targets for Russian forces. You’d essentially need to protect them with mid-range systems like Buk or artillery and MANPADS first. Even then, once an anti-radiation missile finds them, it either knocks out the radar or forces it to shut down and retreat. On top of that, there are endless clusters of Tochka and Iskander missiles just waiting to strike a high-value target.

Mid-range AA systems like the Buk aren't really something NATO countries carry in surplus because they don't typically utilize them. Finland isn't in NATO, and even if they were, I highly doubt they would rush to donate their primary GBAD to Ukraine.

There is another complication with donating F-16s from NATO countries: they are outfitted with NATO IFF transponders and communication suites that would need to be stripped out and replaced with gear compatible with the Ukrainian military. These planes aren't Kalashnikovs—you can't just load them up and start shooting.

Ukraine also operated some Su-27s, which are significantly more sophisticated than the F-16. No one in NATO uses those.
Anthony Smith7 said:Ukraine has its own S-300 units left over from the USSR era, but they’ve clearly been trashed or are pretty much useless at this point.

Besides, we're talking about 90s tech here. It's Russian tech, specifically. We used to parade similar stuff around during local holidays back in '95 when a Super Nintendo was considered the peak of high-tech.

The Russians have likely tweaked their most advanced jets and missiles specifically to dodge or jam the S-300, after all, they're the ones who built the damn things. They probably even rigged their own systems to sniff out where those Ukrainian S-300 radars are emitting signals from, then just leveled the locations.

And obviously, nobody's selling them a modern S-400 system.

Some of those Ukrainian S-300s probably survived well enough to help take down some Russian planes and missiles, but you have to wonder to what extent.

A system that can swat aircraft and missiles out of the sky from 300 kilometers away would be worth its weight in gold for Ukraine. Maybe if the Slovak or Bulgarian versions were modernized enough to handle cutting-edge jets.
But again, that assumes those countries would even consider giving them up, which would mean the US would have to compensate them with Patriots and billions of dollars in value.

The production of Patriot missiles takes time, and training for the Patriot system takes time too. Imagine you were the Bulgarian Minister of Defense; you decide to donate all your aircraft and heavy AA systems to Ukraine, and suddenly Russian jets are flying over Bulgaria, and all you can do is watch helplessly because the Patriots won't arrive for three months—and even then, they might not be operational for another six. What would you tell the Bulgarian public? That you're an idiot or a traitor? A government's and its military's primary responsibility is always to their own country.
Anthony Hill5 Anthony Hill5 Regular
379 messages
joined May 2024
#100 ·
Ukrainian soldiers equipped with Swedish AT4 light anti-tank rockets.

These will be utilized to neutralize Russian trucks and fuel tankers.

The Swedes have announced the shipment of 5,000 units

https://twitter.com/UAWeapons/status...w7ngBsvYA&s=19

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