Who's going to do the dirty work in Utopia?

steeleagle77 said:In a utopia, there is no such thing as dirty work, because an idealist will pay any price to live within it.

You scrape the bottom of the barrel willingly. You eliminate class enemies at will, hand over family members to the gallows at will, and so on...
It doesn't matter if it feels like hell on earth, as long as you are moving toward that collective goal—a freedom where everyone is a slave, an equality where everyone is destitute, and a brotherhood where everyone would rather kill one another.

That’s not some perfect paradise, man, that’s a straight-up dystopia.

Yes, most reasonable people would agree...

steeleagle77 said:Yes, most reasonable people would agree...

Sure, but who was even bringing up some Orwellian dystopia in the first place? That's not what we're talking about here.

Of course we aren't discussing some dystopian nightmare.
We are simply noting that doctors spend their downtime sweeping the streets, or else...

steeleagle77 said:Of course we aren't discussing some dystopian nightmare.
We are simply noting that doctors spend their downtime sweeping the streets, or else...

No—nobody was talking about that.

gentlerider7 said:So, if we’re looking at those gritty, soul-crushing jobs that nobody actually wants to touch—you know, the stuff like cleaning out sewers, hauling trash, or working deep in some dusty coal mine—how on earth would you handle them in some kind of perfect, imaginary system?

In Thomas Moore's version of Utopia, they’d basically just have criminals do all that dirty work (kind of like how things functioned in the USSR, where prisoners were stuck doing all the high-risk labor). Then again, there are always those weirdly optimistic people who argue there will always be someone out there perfectly happy to take on those kinds of roles.

I remember seeing this other thread about communal living, and people were saying that every single commune eventually falls apart because of these exact issues: like, who's actually going to cook the meals, and who's going to deal with the gross job of cleaning the bathrooms?

Who exactly is going to be doing all that work? Robots, obviously!

ruggedraven36 said:No—nobody was talking about that.

ruggedraven36 said:Spot on. Honestly, I don't see any issue with it at all.

I agree. I don't see any issue here either...
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steeleagle77 said:I agree. I don't see any issue here either...

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You can see it for yourself—it isn't. Where does it say doctors (or anyone else, for that matter) are supposed to be out sweeping the streets on their off hours? It doesn't. Nowhere.

It isn't explicitly stated anywhere, other than the suggestion that everyone—barring those physically unable to—should perform public service...

steeleagle77 said:It isn't explicitly stated anywhere, other than the suggestion that everyone—barring those physically unable to—should perform public service...

Where does it even mention "leisure time"? It doesn't.

It’s about the rotation principle. No one’s going to drop dead because they spent one day a month sweeping streets—not even the high-and-mighty surgeons. If that’s a dystopia, then life itself is a dystopia.

ruggedraven36 said:Sure, but who was even bringing up some Orwellian dystopia in the first place? That's not what we're talking about here.

You are debating people who view money and market competition as nothing more than an unavoidable necessity of nature.

ruggedraven36 said:Where does it even mention "leisure time"? It doesn't.

It’s about the rotation principle. No one’s going to drop dead because they spent one day a month sweeping streets—not even the high-and-mighty surgeons. If that’s a dystopia, then life itself is a dystopia.

The whole idea of some utopia where neurosurgeons are scrubbing toilets... well, maybe that sounds good to someone who can't see themselves rising above cleaning toilets in the real world.

So, yeah—go ahead and dream of a utopia where it’s never actually you doing the dirty work.

Alexander Thompson said:The whole idea of some utopia where neurosurgeons are scrubbing toilets... well, maybe that sounds good to someone who can't see themselves rising above cleaning toilets in the real world.

So, yeah—go ahead and dream of a utopia where it’s never actually you doing the dirty work.

Who exactly is cleaning your toilet?

I’m fairly certain you’ve already ascended far beyond that level of labor with your own "talents"—at least, that's how you sound.

Amanda Flores88 said:Talking about those types of jobs. It’s way easier to dream up some utopia where those roles don't even exist than to actually give the people doing them better status. I mean, isn't the whole point of a utopia to get rid of those kinds of gaps? But can we honestly build a society where people aren't constantly trying to outdo one another? Even if you wiped those specific jobs off the map, that drive to stand out wouldn't just vanish—you'd just end up with a different hierarchy based on time, talent, or whatever else.

Alexander Thompson said:The whole idea of some utopia where neurosurgeons are scrubbing toilets... well, maybe that sounds good to someone who can't see themselves rising above cleaning toilets in the real world.

So, yeah—go ahead and dream of a utopia where it’s never actually you doing the dirty work.

It appeals to anyone who actually gives a damn about fairness—including the surgeons themselves.

So he's just dreaming of a world where he isn't the one holding the plunger.

Not just him—nobody.

Back in China during the Cultural Revolution, things didn't exactly work through typical political reshuffling, you know? It was more about this massive, chaotic movement where they’d just uproot students and professors and dump them out in rural farming communities, and you had those Red Guards basically running wild and beating the hell out of intellectuals... it was brutal. Honestly, I think it wouldn't be a bad idea to dig up some decent books on the Cultural Revolution to see what it was actually like.

ruggedraven36 said:Where does it even mention "leisure time"? It doesn't.

It’s about the rotation principle. No one’s going to drop dead because they spent one day a month sweeping streets—not even the high-and-mighty surgeons. If that’s a dystopia, then life itself is a dystopia.

But look—that doctor could have saved a life on the very day he was out there cleaning up trash. We are talking about someone who spends twelve years in K-12 and then another twenty years in medical school; to suggest they should be performing manual labor is more than just absurd—it’s immoral. It carries a real cost. Have you ever actually heard the term "opportunity cost"? I suspect not.

Sam Martinez9 said:A man cleans up sewage and gets a paycheck for it; a woman cleans up the mess at home and doesn't get a dime, nor even a simple thank you.

Well, some people don't clean up any messes at all, yet they still walk away with prizes and plenty of praise.

Sam Martinez9 said:A man cleans up sewage and gets a paycheck for it; a woman cleans up the mess at home and doesn't get a dime, nor even a simple thank you.

And who exactly is forcing the wife to do the cleaning? 🤔
You can live in a pigsty if that’s your preference. Sure, there are legal health and safety codes to consider, but unless the stench is leaking out into the hallway, I doubt anyone is actually going to file a complaint.

Andrew Booth29 said:But look—that doctor could have saved a life on the very day he was out there cleaning up trash. We are talking about someone who spends twelve years in K-12 and then another twenty years in medical school; to suggest they should be performing manual labor is more than just absurd—it’s immoral. It carries a real cost. Have you ever actually heard the term "opportunity cost"? I suspect not.

Some other doctor will step up and save him.

ruggedraven36 said:Some other doctor will step up and save him.

Maybe I should try typing slower—perhaps then you'll follow along. If a doctor is spending 10% of their day juggling side hustles instead of actually practicing medicine, you get less medical care. Period. We could have just had that second doctor working full-time instead. Two doctors at 100% capacity is objectively better than two doctors at 90%—it’s basic math, really. It’s almost trivial to prove this holds true in any general scenario.
If even a high schooler can't grasp that... well, clearly my expectations are far too high.
Unfortunately, there isn't a vaccine for cognitive dissonance. One minute, people are waxing philosophical about individual liberty and the evils of predatory capitalism, and the next, they're advocating for forcing people into labor jobs—all just to satisfy their own egos. 😁