Who's going to do the dirty work in Utopia?

ruggedraven36 said:It appeals to anyone who actually gives a damn about fairness—including the surgeons themselves.

So he's just dreaming of a world where he isn't the one holding the plunger.

Not just him—nobody.

Oh, sure!
So, a neurosurgeon spent years sweating over Latin textbooks and memorizing every obscure detail of brain anatomy while some other guy was busy chilling out and selling nothing but hot air—and now you think it’s "fair" for them both to be out there shoveling manure in a pigpen? Give me a break.

Would you actually walk up to a surgeon while he's cleaning out a barn and say, "Hey, look, my neighbor really needs your help, so I'll take your shift instead," you absolute hypocrite?

Harold Doyle3 said:Oh, sure!
So, a neurosurgeon spent years sweating over Latin textbooks and memorizing every obscure detail of brain anatomy while some other guy was busy chilling out and selling nothing but hot air—and now you think it’s "fair" for them both to be out there shoveling manure in a pigpen? Give me a break.

Would you actually walk up to a surgeon while he's cleaning out a barn and say, "Hey, look, my neighbor really needs your help, so I'll take your shift instead," you absolute hypocrite?

Let's just pretend for a second that we aren't dealing with Maova China here and nobody's being forced into anything. Say the surgeon works a shorter schedule, maybe jumps in for an hour or two every once in a while to lend a hand to the sanitation crews or the farmers.

Andrew Booth29 said:Maybe I should try typing slower—perhaps then you'll follow along. If a doctor is spending 10% of their day juggling side hustles instead of actually practicing medicine, you get less medical care. Period. We could have just had that second doctor working full-time instead. Two doctors at 100% capacity is objectively better than two doctors at 90%—it’s basic math, really. It’s almost trivial to prove this holds true in any general scenario.
If even a high schooler can't grasp that... well, clearly my expectations are far too high.
Unfortunately, there isn't a vaccine for cognitive dissonance. One minute, people are waxing philosophical about individual liberty and the evils of predatory capitalism, and the next, they're advocating for forcing people into labor jobs—all just to satisfy their own egos. 😁

I never advocated for forcing people into jobs. Seriously—how exactly do you build a free and fair society through coercion? You're talking nonsense. Not only that, but you're intentionally twisting my words and putting things in my mouth that I never said or even thought.

gentlerider7 said:Let's just pretend for a second that we aren't dealing with Maova China here and nobody's being forced into anything. Say the surgeon works a shorter schedule, maybe jumps in for an hour or two every once in a while to lend a hand to the sanitation crews or the farmers.

The issue of opportunity cost still hangs over you, though. But honestly, since this whole argument is built upon the nirvana fallacy, there isn't much point in even debating it. You can't disprove a nirvana fallacy; it's unfalsifiable by its very nature. 😁

It's made all the more difficult by the fact that one side has somehow managed to claim the high moral ground out of thin air—which, let's be real, doesn't leave much room for a counterargument on a moderated forum like this.

gentlerider7 said:Let's just pretend for a second that we aren't dealing with Maova China here and nobody's being forced into anything. Say the surgeon works a shorter schedule, maybe jumps in for an hour or two every once in a while to lend a hand to the sanitation crews or the farmers.

Of course, it works both ways. You’ll see the sweepers and the pig farmers jumping in here and there to lend a hand to neurosurgeons whenever they're busy patching up the idiots who push those kinds of ideas... and honestly, that would be about as fair as it gets.

ruggedraven36 said:I never advocated for forcing people into jobs. Seriously—how exactly do you build a free and fair society through coercion? You're talking nonsense. Not only that, but you're intentionally twisting my words and putting things in my mouth that I never said or even thought.

It seems you haven't quite mastered the art of reading comprehension. I didn't even bring you up personally in that context.

Andrew Booth29 said:The issue of opportunity cost still hangs over you, though. But honestly, since this whole argument is built upon the nirvana fallacy, there isn't much point in even debating it. You can't disprove a nirvana fallacy; it's unfalsifiable by its very nature. 😁

It's made all the more difficult by the fact that one side has somehow managed to claim the high moral ground out of thin air—which, let's be real, doesn't leave much room for a counterargument on a moderated forum like this.

Maybe you're overlooking one little detail here; if we lived in some utopia where everyone was perfectly healthy and hard work was basically non-existent, surgeons and doctors wouldn't have nearly as much on their plates. Less work, less stress, and way less grind for the medical profession.

gentlerider7 said:Maybe you're overlooking one little detail here; if we lived in some utopia where everyone was perfectly healthy and hard work was basically non-existent, surgeons and doctors wouldn't have nearly as much on their plates. Less work, less stress, and way less grind for the medical profession.

I didn't forget—I explicitly stated that there is no valid argument against the nirvana fallacy.

gentlerider7 said:Maybe you're overlooking one little detail here; if we lived in some utopia where everyone was perfectly healthy and hard work was basically non-existent, surgeons and doctors wouldn't have nearly as much on their plates. Less work, less stress, and way less grind for the medical profession.

And what about air traffic controllers and pilots? Are they just supposed to go out and clean chicken coops instead?

Harold Doyle3 said:And what about air traffic controllers and pilots? Are they just supposed to go out and clean chicken coops instead?

In that kind of society, you won't even need pilots or controllers—because everyone will be flying. That much is certain. People will grow wings.

It feels like I’ve accidentally wandered into some online elementary school instead of a philosophy seminar. 🤣

Hey, tech support—I think my internet settings got scrambled... Oh, and apparently, today is for cleaning out pigpens. Well, whatever. Tomorrow's another day.

Andrew Booth29 said:In that kind of society, you won't even need pilots or controllers—because everyone will be flying. That much is certain. People will grow wings.

It feels like I’ve accidentally wandered into some online elementary school instead of a philosophy seminar. 🤣

Hey, tech support—I think my internet settings got scrambled... Oh, and apparently, today is for cleaning out pigpens. Well, whatever. Tomorrow's another day.

Karl Jaspers argues that children pose the most profound philosophical questions and that they are at their most intelligent during those years...

Andrew Booth29 said:I didn't forget—I explicitly stated that there is no valid argument against the nirvana fallacy.

But honestly, just dreaming up a perfect utopia isn't some kind of nirvana fallacy.

Harold Doyle3 said:And what about air traffic controllers and pilots? Are they just supposed to go out and clean chicken coops instead?

I mean, look, maybe it’s just less work and more downtime, right? Who knows? Maybe one day some pilot is just gonna wake up, realize the grind isn't worth it, and decide to head out to some quiet ranch in Montana to live off the land—it’s not like being a pilot is exactly easy work anyway, is it?

gentlerider7 said:But honestly, just dreaming up a perfect utopia isn't some kind of nirvana fallacy.

But honestly, your response to my post is...

Andrew Booth29 said:But honestly, your response to my post is...

Are you seriously trying to tell me that stress doesn't actually make people sick?

gentlerider7 said:Are you seriously trying to tell me that stress doesn't actually make people sick?

No—but you seem hell-bent on imagining this perfect little world where everything bends to your specific whims. If that's the case, there isn't much point in us even having a conversation, is there?
The real question is: who actually does the dirty work in your utopia? In this dream scenario, people would just volunteer for the grunt work because they're so blissfully happy to serve the collective. Everyone would be healthy, brilliant, and attractive. Everyone would have exactly the same things. They’d spend their days frolicking through meadows picking wildflowers, and then—just like that—they’d switch over to performing brain surgery, piloting jets, or cleaning out pig pens. At the end of the day, they’d all just sing some patriotic anthem about how great the old leaders were... and head to bed feeling perfectly content. That’s my vision of it, anyway. Any objections?

Beyond that, your whole argument regarding stress is just a logical fallacy—specifically, denying the antecedent. But hey, go ahead...

gentlerider7 said:I mean, look, maybe it’s just less work and more downtime, right? Who knows? Maybe one day some pilot is just gonna wake up, realize the grind isn't worth it, and decide to head out to some quiet ranch in Montana to live off the land—it’s not like being a pilot is exactly easy work anyway, is it?

I can easily picture a pilot volunteering to go dig up a vineyard for the greater good, but if a philosopher tried that? Those farmers would probably beat him senseless with a shovel.

Andrew Booth29 said:No—but you seem hell-bent on imagining this perfect little world where everything bends to your specific whims. If that's the case, there isn't much point in us even having a conversation, is there?
The real question is: who actually does the dirty work in your utopia? In this dream scenario, people would just volunteer for the grunt work because they're so blissfully happy to serve the collective. Everyone would be healthy, brilliant, and attractive. Everyone would have exactly the same things. They’d spend their days frolicking through meadows picking wildflowers, and then—just like that—they’d switch over to performing brain surgery, piloting jets, or cleaning out pig pens. At the end of the day, they’d all just sing some patriotic anthem about how great the old leaders were... and head to bed feeling perfectly content. That’s my vision of it, anyway. Any objections?

Beyond that, your whole argument regarding stress is just a logical fallacy—specifically, denying the antecedent. But hey, go ahead...

Look, I said "less stress," not "zero stress." Even a utopia needs some kind of actual foundation in reality, otherwise, it's just an endless, mindless daydream.

gentlerider7 said:Let's just pretend for a second that we aren't dealing with Maova China here and nobody's being forced into anything. Say the surgeon works a shorter schedule, maybe jumps in for an hour or two every once in a while to lend a hand to the sanitation crews or the farmers.

All these attempts at leveling the playing field—trying to centrally plan the value of goods, services, or even someone's labor—is exactly why socialist systems fell apart. There was this massive, heated debate back in the 1920s about this, all sparked by Mises's critique.

"Mises proved that socialism is fundamentally broken because it lacks the ability to distinguish between more or less valuable uses for social resources. He predicted the whole system would just spiral into chaos. His work triggered two decades of intense arguing over what we call 'socialist calculation.'"

https://mises.org/library/economic-c...t-commonwealth

gentlerider7 said:Look, I said "less stress," not "zero stress." Even a utopia needs some kind of actual foundation in reality, otherwise, it's just an endless, mindless daydream.

Then I’d tell you this: if we actually factor in reality, rotating people through different jobs is economically disastrous—whether it’s voluntary or forced. It comes down to that concept of opportunity cost I mentioned before. It isn't just about the money being wasted; it's about the fact that doing this would ultimately lower the standard of living and general welfare for the entire American public. I suppose I just can't figure out where exactly you've decided to draw the line between a workable utopia and pure delusion.