Should we let go of our feelings?

Joseph Bailey41 said:I’m honestly curious about what it actually feels like when you transcend. What's the weather like up there? You know, the atmospheric conditions, visibility, and all that stuff. Hopefully, it won't just be another Kiowa Warrior situation where things get messy. 🕺

wearyowl29 said:It’s simple: you fly, then you land. You need decent weather, sure, but really, you just close your eyes and go for it—meditate, visualize, manifest, conjure... whatever works!

If I remember right, both of you live out in the sticks, pretty close to nature...
😁

neonmarlin39 said:I mean, it really just depends on how you look at it and how you define your terms. What you listed there isn't necessarily enough to call something a religion on its own, at least not technically speaking. If we're talking practical stuff, if a system hits one or more of those markers—like rituals, prayer, chanting, pilgrimages, or even idol worship—then yeah, you could call it a religion. From there, it can be anything from super institutionalized to totally individualistic. There are definitely spiritual paths out there that push back against all those traditional religious practices and don't bother with them at all (actually quite the opposite), though those types of systems are pretty rare. By those technical definitions, they wouldn't count as religions. You also see plenty of "spiritual" systems that distance themselves from organized religion—you actually see people like that on this forum all the time—but they still end up using clearly religious practices. At the end of the day, religion is defined by those traits, among plenty of others.

Let me give you a real-world example. In your book, is it "moral" to run experiments—the kind that are non-human and involve extreme pain or even death—on animals (or humans, if we're going there) if that experiment leads to a breakthrough that helps everyone else down the road?

I was trying to step outside of that "technical" box you mentioned—which I get is way too narrow for some people—but that doesn't mean I'm trying to lump everything together like religion, spirituality, ideology, culture, or worldviews into one big mess. That would just be too vague.

There are tons of examples of systems labeled as "spiritual" that distance themselves from organized religion—you see plenty of folks on this forum like that—yet they still lean heavily on clearly religious practices, making religion and spirituality pretty much indistinguishable by those markers.

Can you give me some actual examples? I haven't been hanging around this forum long enough...

A concrete example. In your opinion, is it moral to run experiments—say, non-human ones that are extremely painful or even fatal—on animals (or humans, where applicable) if it leads to a breakthrough that helps the majority in the future?

Personally, when it comes to people, it's absolutely not moral... but living creatures should probably have some kind of moral status depending on how complex they are. So, bacteria, fruit flies, or plants... the higher up the chain you go, the bigger the gray area gets.

Also, we should be ensuring they get the best treatment possible with minimal suffering, while looking for alternatives to experimentation whenever we can.

I honestly don't know what to make of this lately. It feels like we're all just drifting through these massive shifts without much of a compass. Sometimes I wonder if we're actually making progress, or if we're just running faster on a treadmill that’s going nowhere. It’s a lot to process, and I’m still trying to wrap my head around where we all land. kaže:
You're touching on a few different points here... While that sense of "simple connectivity" is definitely something we all crave, it feels like it only happens in fleeting moments in today's world. It’s hard to find, and even when you do, it varies so much from one person to the next.

I’ve been thinking a lot about the concept of connection lately. It shows up in so many different ways, of course—the bond between a rider and their horse is one thing, then you have marriage, close friendships, or even just being good neighbors. But at its core, when you look at any relationship between two distinct, independent individuals who are actually in sync, the essence remains the same: it’s all about cooperation.

I think we need to talk about how much our society prioritizes stuff over everything else. It feels like we’ve reached a point where being materialistic isn't just common—it's expected. We’re constantly told that if we aren't upgrading our phones or buying the latest gear, we're somehow falling behind. Honestly, it’s exhausting to keep up with. Does anyone else feel like we've lost sight of what actually matters in the pursuit of more? kaže:
It all comes down to individual sensibilities, I suppose, along with a whole host of other variables. But looking at where we stand now, traditional religions—Christianity, primarily—seem to have been pushed into a position where they're viewed as nothing more than an "upgrade," a relic of the past, or perhaps just some formal afterthought to this whole... concept.

Has Capitalism Become Our Religion?

I can mostly just hold onto the "leftovers" to keep things somewhat balanced—acting as a way to stay connected to where we've been and where we're headed.

If McCarahher is actually right, then nobody is truly "outside" of that religion in today's world—or at least, very few people manage to be.
I won't get too bogged down in the specifics of the book itself just yet. The author—who identifies as a Christian—touches on quite a few different themes, including what he calls "left-wing romanticism" as an alternative to the often controversial concept of "Christian socialism."

A key way to measure religion is by what you actually worship. Just because you use money doesn't mean you're serving it.

I think we need to talk about how much we've let our focus shift toward being purely materialistic. It feels like we're constantly chasing the next big thing just to feel some sense of progress, but it's leaving us pretty empty. Is it just me, or has capitalism become our religion? We spend all this energy accumulating stuff, thinking it'll finally make us happy, but it's just a cycle that never actually ends. I'm trying to be more intentional about what matters, but man, it's hard when everything around you is designed to make you want more. kaže:
To me, the ability to "transcend our materialistic reality" feels like one of the defining traits of being human. It’s baked into our DNA. You see it in everything from the first crude stone tools ever shaped to the way we carefully prepare a burial site, or even those ancient cave paintings and the very first words ever spoken. It's just part of who we are.

I’d mostly call it a reshaping of sorts. Though, I’m still a little torn when it comes to the language aspect. It certainly isn't materialistic.

I can't quite make sense of that last message. It looks like there might have been a typo or a bit of a glitch. Could you please clarify what you meant? I'm happy to jump back into the conversation once I know where we're headed! kaže:
Getting stuck in your own head feels like a problem that fluctuates—some days it’s an uphill battle, other days it's just a mild distraction. And honestly, looking at the sheer variety of religions, worldviews, and cultures out there, I don't think all that diversity necessarily leads to a "war of all against all."

I don't see it that way either. It's really just those who have an appetite for conflict who end up fighting.

Lisa Jackson7 said:You're hitting on several different points here... that "basic connectivity" is definitely the goal, but in today's world, it's pretty rare to actually feel that (on an individual level, at least).

It depends on how you see things, and there are definitely other factors at play... traditional religions—specifically Christianity—are basically sitting there as an "upgrade," a "relic," or just a "ceremonial add-on" to this whole thing...

The Wealth of Nations

... and as a "relic," they mostly just maintain a certain balance and act as a reminder of the past (and the future).

If McCarthy is right, then practically nobody is "outside" of this religion in the modern world, or maybe just a tiny handful of people.
I won't get too bogged down in the article/book itself, but the author (who's a Christian) covers a lot of ground, even touching on "left-wing romanticism" instead of—well, maybe a more compromised—"Christian socialism."

In my opinion, it's not about transcending material reality so much as getting out of our own heads—accepting that we don't all share one single truth, other than the fact that we're human.

To me, the ability to "transcend material reality" seems like a fundamental part of being human... from the first crudely carved stones and burial sites to cave paintings and the first spoken words...
Being "stuck in our own mental trenches" feels like a problem that fluctuates in difficulty... the existence of various religions, worldviews, and cultures doesn't necessarily lead to a "war of all against all" in my book.

Not sure why you're calling them "cults," but yeah, they definitely overlap... just like transcendence and everyday life do.

When religion serves as an orientation...We’re stuck in this endless loop of internal and external enemies—and ideologues absolutely love it because they basically feed off that fear-mongering crap.

Not necessarily...

When you look at beliefs that go beyond this earthly plane, there's spirituality—which is different from organized religions that have somehow convinced themselves they're the only gatekeepers to heaven.
Since spirituality isn't something you can just consume on a mass scale, it might actually be totally immune to Mamone and whatever else is out there.

I don't see religiosity and spirituality as opposites... people who claim to be "spiritual but not religious" have just essentially denied the transcendent side of their own faith and shoved it all into the "spirituality" bucket instead.

The rest of the religious stuff is supposedly "covered" by the social contract... I'm skeptical, but hey, whatever floats your boat...

Also, just because some elite or individual consumes spirituality or culture doesn't mean they're safe from Mamone, Caesar, or whoever the hell the current idol is.

If that's the case, then they've simply put it back where it belongs. 😉

Lisa Jackson7 said:If I remember right, both of you live out in the sticks, pretty close to nature...
😁

In a high castle.
🙂

Look, being religious isn't the opposite of being spiritual—it’s more like spiritual blindness. It's like someone mistakes a bunch of forced, ideological superstitions for actual depth just because both things happen to fall under the umbrella of "abstract concepts."

Lisa Jackson7 said:You're hitting on several different points here... that "basic connectivity" is definitely the goal, but in today's world, it's pretty rare to actually feel that (on an individual level, at least).

It depends on how you see things, and there are definitely other factors at play... traditional religions—specifically Christianity—are basically sitting there as an "upgrade," a "relic," or just a "ceremonial add-on" to this whole thing...

The Wealth of Nations

... and as a "relic," they mostly just maintain a certain balance and act as a reminder of the past (and the future).

If McCarthy is right, then practically nobody is "outside" of this religion in the modern world, or maybe just a tiny handful of people.
I won't get too bogged down in the article/book itself, but the author (who's a Christian) covers a lot of ground, even touching on "left-wing romanticism" instead of—well, maybe a more compromised—"Christian socialism."

In my opinion, it's not about transcending material reality so much as getting out of our own heads—accepting that we don't all share one single truth, other than the fact that we're human.

To me, the ability to "transcend material reality" seems like a fundamental part of being human... from the first crudely carved stones and burial sites to cave paintings and the first spoken words...
Being "stuck in our own mental trenches" feels like a problem that fluctuates in difficulty... the existence of various religions, worldviews, and cultures doesn't necessarily lead to a "war of all against all" in my book.

Not sure why you're calling them "cults," but yeah, they definitely overlap... just like transcendence and everyday life do.

When religion serves as an orientation...We’re stuck in this endless loop of internal and external enemies—and ideologues absolutely love it because they basically feed off that fear-mongering crap.

Not necessarily...

When you look at beliefs that go beyond this earthly plane, there's spirituality—which is different from organized religions that have somehow convinced themselves they're the only gatekeepers to heaven.
Since spirituality isn't something you can just consume on a mass scale, it might actually be totally immune to Mamone and whatever else is out there.

I don't see religiosity and spirituality as opposites... people who claim to be "spiritual but not religious" have just essentially denied the transcendent side of their own faith and shoved it all into the "spirituality" bucket instead.

The rest of the religious stuff is supposedly "covered" by the social contract... I'm skeptical, but hey, whatever floats your boat...

Also, just because some elite or individual consumes spirituality or culture doesn't mean they're safe from Mamone, Caesar, or whoever the hell the current idol is.

Every religion is essentially a cult because they deal with things that are sacred, lifting them out of the
profane world. Even the word "culture" itself implies something being nurtured.

So, what exactly is this "denied transcendent dimension" when it comes to spirituality?

Spirituality gives you everything anyway—ceremonies, rituals, whether you're doing them solo or in a group.
You set your own pace...
The thing spirituality *doesn't* give you—and honestly, it isn't even necessary—is the urge to influence others. You aren't trying to scare people with talk of demons or attempting to fix them through moral lecturing, acting like some sort of self-appointed social corrector.

At the end of the day, religions exist to keep people occupied by providing that sense of herd security, warmth, and identity. Primarily, it keeps them from having to face themselves, asking the hard questions... and making too much noise.

Religion always follows a structure of control, whereas spirituality doesn't. It's a fluid, personal process of growth that happens at its own speed.

Nobody is immune to reality. We are social animals, after all, and we're wired to be connected to everyone else by default. Sure, you could head out into the woods and be alone, but still.

Joseph Bailey41 said:

I honestly don't know what to make of this lately. It feels like we're all just drifting through these massive shifts without much of a compass. Sometimes I wonder if we're actually making progress, or if we're just running faster on a treadmill that’s going nowhere. It’s a lot to process, and I’m still trying to wrap my head around where we all land. kaže:
You're touching on a few different points here... While that sense of "simple connectivity" is definitely something we all crave, it feels like it only happens in fleeting moments in today's world. It’s hard to find, and even when you do, it varies so much from one person to the next.

I’ve been thinking a lot about the concept of connection lately. It shows up in so many different ways, of course—the bond between a rider and their horse is one thing, then you have marriage, close friendships, or even just being good neighbors. But at its core, when you look at any relationship between two distinct, independent individuals who are actually in sync, the essence remains the same: it’s all about cooperation.

I think we need to talk about how much our society prioritizes stuff over everything else. It feels like we’ve reached a point where being materialistic isn't just common—it's expected. We’re constantly told that if we aren't upgrading our phones or buying the latest gear, we're somehow falling behind. Honestly, it’s exhausting to keep up with. Does anyone else feel like we've lost sight of what actually matters in the pursuit of more? kaže:
It all comes down to individual sensibilities, I suppose, along with a whole host of other variables. But looking at where we stand now, traditional religions—Christianity, primarily—seem to have been pushed into a position where they're viewed as nothing more than an "upgrade," a relic of the past, or perhaps just some formal afterthought to this whole... concept.

Has Capitalism Become Our Religion?

I can mostly just hold onto the "leftovers" to keep things somewhat balanced—acting as a way to stay connected to where we've been and where we're headed.

If McCarahher is actually right, then nobody is truly "outside" of that religion in today's world—or at least, very few people manage to be.
I won't get too bogged down in the specifics of the book itself just yet. The author—who identifies as a Christian—touches on quite a few different themes, including what he calls "left-wing romanticism" as an alternative to the often controversial concept of "Christian socialism."

A key way to measure religion is by what you actually worship. Just because you use money doesn't mean you're serving it.

I think we need to talk about how much we've let our focus shift toward being purely materialistic. It feels like we're constantly chasing the next big thing just to feel some sense of progress, but it's leaving us pretty empty. Is it just me, or has capitalism become our religion? We spend all this energy accumulating stuff, thinking it'll finally make us happy, but it's just a cycle that never actually ends. I'm trying to be more intentional about what matters, but man, it's hard when everything around you is designed to make you want more. kaže:
To me, the ability to "transcend our materialistic reality" feels like one of the defining traits of being human. It’s baked into our DNA. You see it in everything from the first crude stone tools ever shaped to the way we carefully prepare a burial site, or even those ancient cave paintings and the very first words ever spoken. It's just part of who we are.

I’d mostly call it a reshaping of sorts. Though, I’m still a little torn when it comes to the language aspect. It certainly isn't materialistic.

I can't quite make sense of that last message. It looks like there might have been a typo or a bit of a glitch. Could you please clarify what you meant? I'm happy to jump back into the conversation once I know where we're headed! kaže:
Getting stuck in your own head feels like a problem that fluctuates—some days it’s an uphill battle, other days it's just a mild distraction. And honestly, looking at the sheer variety of religions, worldviews, and cultures out there, I don't think all that diversity necessarily leads to a "war of all against all."

I don't see it that way either. It's really just those who have an appetite for conflict who end up fighting.

If that's the case, then they've simply put it back where it belongs. 😉

In a high castle.
🙂

I get it—was just trying to say how it goes. For now. It’s still way too much—this whole thing is just wrapped up in some "stiff, semi-parasitic attachment."

Quincy:

Religion really comes down to one thing—who you actually worship. Just because you're using money doesn't mean you're serving it. Simple as that.

Too often, honestly... my precious !!!!

Quincy

If that's how it is, they just put her right back where she belongs. 😉

Nah, they’ve split things up that should've stayed together—the whole sphere of practice, ritual, and those "everyday activities" that actually mean something? It's gone off in some totally unknown direction. It just drifted way too far from the spiritual core and the "sacred."

The "sacred" space has to be filled with something—it’s been flooded with all kinds of junk lately (usually just radioactive idolatry waste)... nationalistic worship and pure greed... I think McCarthy is actually onto something there.

That’s a bit different from what Charles Taylor argues in "a Secular age"—that massive book about how society basically "unraveled" over the last few centuries through the whole secularization process.

Quincy

Up in some massive mansion. 🙂

Utility bills? Seriously?

wearyowl29 said:Every religion is essentially a cult because they deal with things that are sacred, lifting them out of the
profane world. Even the word "culture" itself implies something being nurtured.

So, what exactly is this "denied transcendent dimension" when it comes to spirituality?

Spirituality gives you everything anyway—ceremonies, rituals, whether you're doing them solo or in a group.
You set your own pace...
The thing spirituality *doesn't* give you—and honestly, it isn't even necessary—is the urge to influence others. You aren't trying to scare people with talk of demons or attempting to fix them through moral lecturing, acting like some sort of self-appointed social corrector.

At the end of the day, religions exist to keep people occupied by providing that sense of herd security, warmth, and identity. Primarily, it keeps them from having to face themselves, asking the hard questions... and making too much noise.

Religion always follows a structure of control, whereas spirituality doesn't. It's a fluid, personal process of growth that happens at its own speed.

Nobody is immune to reality. We are social animals, after all, and we're wired to be connected to everyone else by default. Sure, you could head out into the woods and be alone, but still.

I can't agree with that bold take at all... we're talking about a massive part of how a community builds its moral backbone... if the people in a community refuse to step up, then you'll just end up leaving a vacuum for a duo like Caesar and Mammon to fill.

What people in a community *can* and *should* do is find that sweet spot between personal space, family life, and the public sphere.
In a perfect world, those layers should be totally balanced.

Ignoring that responsibility is exactly why things are already falling apart.

Wait, how the hell am I supposed to pull this off?

driftingheron97 said:Wait, how the hell am I supposed to pull this off?

Pure psychopathy. 😁

goldenjackal6 said:Pure psychopathy. 😁

No way I can deal with that, absolutely nothing from me...

Lisa Jackson7 said:I can't agree with that bold take at all... we're talking about a massive part of how a community builds its moral backbone... if the people in a community refuse to step up, then you'll just end up leaving a vacuum for a duo like Caesar and Mammon to fill.

What people in a community *can* and *should* do is find that sweet spot between personal space, family life, and the public sphere.
In a perfect world, those layers should be totally balanced.

Ignoring that responsibility is exactly why things are already falling apart.

See, this urge to force everyone to follow a specific moral code isn't actually about spirituality; it’s just organized religion. Real, deep change always starts from within. Spirituality digs into our very core, whereas religion tends to scratch at the surface, trying to mold us into a cookie-cutter society.

So, shifting a mindset or raising consciousness begins with the individual first, and then ripples outward toward the community.

It’s all about personal vibration—think about frequency and energy, like what Elon Musk talks about regarding high-tech systems—rather than just vibrating along with the crowd stuck in a loop of sin, fear, and guilt.

Finding perfect balance is actually pretty tough sometimes! That's why people use a sort of mental switch: you're the polished, polite professional at the office, but once you walk through your front door, you can finally just be yourself.

For religious folks, that alignment is easier because the whole group is tuned to that exact same frequency. But for those of us who have moved past that? We can see clearly that we don't quite fit into that specific social rhythm anymore.

"Quote"

wearyowl29 said:Every religion is essentially a cult because they deal with things that are sacred, lifting them out of the
profane world. Even the word "culture" itself implies something being nurtured.

So, what exactly is this "denied transcendent dimension" when it comes to spirituality?

Spirituality gives you everything anyway—ceremonies, rituals, whether you're doing them solo or in a group.
You set your own pace...
The thing spirituality *doesn't* give you—and honestly, it isn't even necessary—is the urge to influence others. You aren't trying to scare people with talk of demons or attempting to fix them through moral lecturing, acting like some sort of self-appointed social corrector.

At the end of the day, religions exist to keep people occupied by providing that sense of herd security, warmth, and identity. Primarily, it keeps them from having to face themselves, asking the hard questions... and making too much noise.

Religion always follows a structure of control, whereas spirituality doesn't. It's a fluid, personal process of growth that happens at its own speed.

Nobody is immune to reality. We are social animals, after all, and we're wired to be connected to everyone else by default. Sure, you could head out into the woods and be alone, but still.

Question... why do you always use the word "flock"—even when "community" would actually make sense in context?

I have no clue why you think religion would even exist for the reasons you're bringing up—honestly, that only makes sense if... totalitarianism—what a joke. People love to twist doctrine just to keep everyone in line—it’s basically just a tool for outside authorities to play cop and discipline whoever they want.

"Quote"

Religion is always about control—it’s all rigid structures and rules—but spirituality? That’s different. It’s fluid, it’s a personal journey of growth, and it happens at your own damn pace.

Look, you could call it self-control—like, having some actual internalized standards for how to act—which is pretty much a requirement if you want to actually function in society without being a total disaster.
Spirituality isn't about being in control—it’s about that whole process of personal growth, just like you said.

We honestly need both.

If you think religion isn't the starting point, then all you’ve got left for guidance is Caesar’s laws... and if that mindset takes over, the state starts grabbing the prerogatives of moral communities—instead of just managing a "flock," you end up with much tighter, much more suffocating control.

"Quote"

Nobody’s got an immunity to reality—we're social animals by design, wired to be connected to everything all the time. You want to escape? Go live in the middle of the woods alone.

I'm not talking about being a loner here, but if we're supposedly "social animals," then shouldn't that actually include things like "safety, warmth, and a sense of belonging"... or what?

"Quote"

wearyowl29 said:See, this urge to force everyone to follow a specific moral code isn't actually about spirituality; it’s just organized religion. Real, deep change always starts from within. Spirituality digs into our very core, whereas religion tends to scratch at the surface, trying to mold us into a cookie-cutter society.

So, shifting a mindset or raising consciousness begins with the individual first, and then ripples outward toward the community.

It’s all about personal vibration—think about frequency and energy, like what Elon Musk talks about regarding high-tech systems—rather than just vibrating along with the crowd stuck in a loop of sin, fear, and guilt.

Finding perfect balance is actually pretty tough sometimes! That's why people use a sort of mental switch: you're the polished, polite professional at the office, but once you walk through your front door, you can finally just be yourself.

For religious folks, that alignment is easier because the whole group is tuned to that exact same frequency. But for those of us who have moved past that? We can see clearly that we don't quite fit into that specific social rhythm anymore.

There’s no such thing as "private" morality—we all live in this massive moral field where everyone in the community is constantly rubbing off on each other.
If you want real change to actually stick, it’s gotta start from within—but let’s be real, if you don't have outside support to back it up, it isn't going anywhere.
We don't have to turn into the Borg just because of that.

"Quote"

Look, it’s simple—real change starts with the individual first, then hits the community level once that mindset actually shifts. It’s all about your personal vibration—think frequency, energy, that Tesla stuff—not just some mass vibrating in a set pattern sin, fear, guilt.

The influence works both ways... and when a community starts acting like a mob crushing the individual, you're looking at two things...

1. Way too many people in this group have totally checked out of their responsibility toward everyone else.

2. The pressure from the top brass (Caesar) has become overwhelming—sometimes manipulative, sometimes straight-up aggressive.

Sometimes balance is just impossible; that's why people use a switch—you play the polite, perfect little citizen at work, then you're finally yourself at home.

For religious folks, staying in sync is easier because society is basically tuned to that exact same frequency. But those who've drifted away? They can see they don't fit into that mold anymore.

There are switches, sure, but it's not just an ON-OFF thing—there are plenty of settings in between.

The real question is what frequency society is actually tuned to... It's easiest to just satisfy the optics, claim the old religious institutions are still "in charge," tie them back to Caesar, and say... "we're sticking to traditional values"... even while they rot from the inside.

Also... we don't just belong to one single circle; everything overlaps... there's no such thing as total isolation (unless, like you said, you head deep into the woods and never come out)... and there's no such thing as total belonging either.

Lisa Jackson7 said:"Quote"

Question... why do you always use the word "flock"—even when "community" would actually make sense in context?

I have no clue why you think religion would even exist for the reasons you're bringing up—honestly, that only makes sense if... totalitarianism—what a joke. People love to twist doctrine just to keep everyone in line—it’s basically just a tool for outside authorities to play cop and discipline whoever they want.

"Quote"

Religion is always about control—it’s all rigid structures and rules—but spirituality? That’s different. It’s fluid, it’s a personal journey of growth, and it happens at your own damn pace.

Look, you could call it self-control—like, having some actual internalized standards for how to act—which is pretty much a requirement if you want to actually function in society without being a total disaster.
Spirituality isn't about being in control—it’s about that whole process of personal growth, just like you said.

We honestly need both.

If you think religion isn't the starting point, then all you’ve got left for guidance is Caesar’s laws... and if that mindset takes over, the state starts grabbing the prerogatives of moral communities—instead of just managing a "flock," you end up with much tighter, much more suffocating control.

"Quote"

Nobody’s got an immunity to reality—we're social animals by design, wired to be connected to everything all the time. You want to escape? Go live in the middle of the woods alone.

I'm not talking about being a loner here, but if we're supposedly "social animals," then shouldn't that actually include things like "safety, warmth, and a sense of belonging"... or what?

"Quote"

There’s no such thing as "private" morality—we all live in this massive moral field where everyone in the community is constantly rubbing off on each other.
If you want real change to actually stick, it’s gotta start from within—but let’s be real, if you don't have outside support to back it up, it isn't going anywhere.
We don't have to turn into the Borg just because of that.

"Quote"

Look, it’s simple—real change starts with the individual first, then hits the community level once that mindset actually shifts. It’s all about your personal vibration—think frequency, energy, that Tesla stuff—not just some mass vibrating in a set pattern sin, fear, guilt.

The influence works both ways... and when a community starts acting like a mob crushing the individual, you're looking at two things...

1. Way too many people in this group have totally checked out of their responsibility toward everyone else.

2. The pressure from the top brass (Caesar) has become overwhelming—sometimes manipulative, sometimes straight-up aggressive.

Sometimes balance is just impossible; that's why people use a switch—you play the polite, perfect little citizen at work, then you're finally yourself at home.

For religious folks, staying in sync is easier because society is basically tuned to that exact same frequency. But those who've drifted away? They can see they don't fit into that mold anymore.

There are switches, sure, but it's not just an ON-OFF thing—there are plenty of settings in between.

The real question is what frequency society is actually tuned to... It's easiest to just satisfy the optics, claim the old religious institutions are still "in charge," tie them back to Caesar, and say... "we're sticking to traditional values"... even while they rot from the inside.

Also... we don't just belong to one single circle; everything overlaps... there's no such thing as total isolation (unless, like you said, you head deep into the woods and never come out)... and there's no such thing as total belonging either.

That isn't necessarily true, though. Some people find their own sense of direction within themselves. (The self shapes the ego, not the other way around.)

Joseph Bailey41 said:That isn't necessarily true, though. Some people find their own sense of direction within themselves. (The self shapes the ego, not the other way around.)

On an individual level, basically anything is possible... but even that has an expiration date.
I’m talking about big-picture historical shifts here.

We've seen some pretty ugly history when people start hunting for a "God on Earth" after massive failures during periods of secularization.

It looked like everyone learned their lesson back then—both the liberal secularists and the heads of religious institutions.

But man, people forget... fast.

Lisa Jackson7 said:On an individual level, basically anything is possible... but even that has an expiration date.
I’m talking about big-picture historical shifts here.

We've seen some pretty ugly history when people start hunting for a "God on Earth" after massive failures during periods of secularization.

It looked like everyone learned their lesson back then—both the liberal secularists and the heads of religious institutions.

But man, people forget... fast.

Look, we’re in a discussion about spirituality, so I'm keeping the focus on the individual. Discussions about liberalization, secularism, or earthly versus celestial gods all carry their own specific subtexts. Sorry, but I really don't want to get sidetracked by off-topic tangents here.

Joseph Bailey41 said:Look, we’re in a discussion about spirituality, so I'm keeping the focus on the individual. Discussions about liberalization, secularism, or earthly versus celestial gods all carry their own specific subtexts. Sorry, but I really don't want to get sidetracked by off-topic tangents here.

I'm with you there—I'll stop myself right here... I was actually planning on starting a whole separate thread over on Philosophy anyway.

goldenjackal6 said:We’re still sitting on the sidelines, maybe a few million years away from actual transcendence.

Despite what everyone wants to believe, humans are basically just primitive pack animals with some pretty half-baked reasoning skills. The only thing making us look sophisticated to the outside world is our toolkit—specifically language and technology.

The ability of a human being to grasp the nature of existence is about the same as a blade of grass trying to comprehend the human brain. 🧐

Though, perhaps that isn't even true... Who knows... Nick doesn't know anything... Knowledge is fragile... (As they used to say on this forum. 😁 )

mistybison said:The ability of a human being to grasp the nature of existence is about the same as a blade of grass trying to comprehend the human brain. 🧐

Though, perhaps that isn't even true... Who knows... Nick doesn't know anything... Knowledge is fragile... (As they used to say on this forum. 😁 )

Feeling nostalgic again? 🙂

Joseph Bailey41 said:Feeling nostalgic again? 🙂

😁

I'm feeling a bit melancholic...

But I shouldn't be expressing that here, since we're supposed to be "cleansing ourselves of emotion" or "finding ecstasy in merging with the divine." 😁

Lisa Jackson7 said:I was trying to step outside of that "technical" box you mentioned—which I get is way too narrow for some people—but that doesn't mean I'm trying to lump everything together like religion, spirituality, ideology, culture, or worldviews into one big mess. That would just be too vague.

There are tons of examples of systems labeled as "spiritual" that distance themselves from organized religion—you see plenty of folks on this forum like that—yet they still lean heavily on clearly religious practices, making religion and spirituality pretty much indistinguishable by those markers.

Can you give me some actual examples? I haven't been hanging around this forum long enough...

A concrete example. In your opinion, is it moral to run experiments—say, non-human ones that are extremely painful or even fatal—on animals (or humans, where applicable) if it leads to a breakthrough that helps the majority in the future?

Personally, when it comes to people, it's absolutely not moral... but living creatures should probably have some kind of moral status depending on how complex they are. So, bacteria, fruit flies, or plants... the higher up the chain you go, the bigger the gray area gets.

Also, we should be ensuring they get the best treatment possible with minimal suffering, while looking for alternatives to experimentation whenever we can.

The thing is, practice matters way more for these definitions than just the theory.

Lisa Jackson7 said:I was trying to step outside of that "technical" box you mentioned—which I get is way too narrow for some people—but that doesn't mean I'm trying to lump everything together like religion, spirituality, ideology, culture, or worldviews into one big mess. That would just be too vague.

There are tons of examples of systems labeled as "spiritual" that distance themselves from organized religion—you see plenty of folks on this forum like that—yet they still lean heavily on clearly religious practices, making religion and spirituality pretty much indistinguishable by those markers.

Can you give me some actual examples? I haven't been hanging around this forum long enough...

A concrete example. In your opinion, is it moral to run experiments—say, non-human ones that are extremely painful or even fatal—on animals (or humans, where applicable) if it leads to a breakthrough that helps the majority in the future?

Personally, when it comes to people, it's absolutely not moral... but living creatures should probably have some kind of moral status depending on how complex they are. So, bacteria, fruit flies, or plants... the higher up the chain you go, the bigger the gray area gets.

Also, we should be ensuring they get the best treatment possible with minimal suffering, while looking for alternatives to experimentation whenever we can.

For instance, even Abhinavagupta wrote about that specific distinction. You've got spiritual practices like brahmabhava, dhyana, and dharana—with brahmabhava being the top tier, followed by dhyana, and then dharana. If you actually work on these psycho-spiritual practices, they sharpen the mind and eventually lead to self-realization (basically, knowing God). On the flip side, religious practices—think rituals, prayers, hymns, pilgrimages, or worshiping idols—actually dull the mind. They’re built on dogma and ignorance, and most importantly, they don't lead to self-realization because they aren't connected to it. Religious practices are basically ranked by how useless they are (and honestly, none of them are "good"), with idol worship being the absolute worst—since that's really just dharana directed at a physical object made of dead matter.

Also, spirituality and mysticism focus on the "here and now" (things like nirvana or samadhi—you can experience all of it in this life). Religions, though, usually deal in promises for what happens after you die (like going to heaven or hell, seeing God, or becoming one with God later on). In the spiritual tradition, your physical body is actually a "must-have" for growth and self-realization. It's not something viewed negatively, like a punishment, a lie, or a sin, which is how a lot of religions (and even some "spiritual" groups that try to distance themselves from the word religion) tend to see it. If someone hasn't achieved self-realization while they're alive and using their brain, hormones, and nervous system, it's pretty unlikely they'll suddenly pull it off after death. It’d be pretty silly to think you could learn multiplication tables by sleeping through a deep slumber where there's no stimulus or thought. It would be just as ridiculous to say someone should pray for the ability to multiply, or that if they fart twice and light three candles, they'll suddenly understand math. Or that if they go to Times Square and scream Allah Akbar at the top of their lungs, God will grant them mathematical skills. Or that building a statue of the number 10 and bowing to it every day will teach them how to multiply. Just plain silly.