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Question about atheists

Started by Gregory Carter67 · · 👁 5 views · 169 replies

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Participants Gregory Carter67Nathan DoyleNicole JamesdarkravenGerald Hillcasualtiger2brisksurfer3graniteridge31Thomas Nelson25Justin Baker6Paul Kern2Paul Anderson15David Vaughn75hollowpuma762copperhound12wiredfalcon2Amy Bennettplacidcrane66Benjamin Taylor6Jesse JacksonGerald Jackson48Lisa Jackson7hiddeneagle98bluepuma9 …
Gregory Carter67 Gregory Carter67 MemberOP
25 messages
joined May 2018
#1 ·
Watching debates and scrolling through discussions by certain atheists, I get the feeling they’re actually more like believers—even if they claim otherwise. Don't get me wrong, they definitely deny God's existence.

Take this, for example. Someone brings up a religious text. A hardcore atheist usually jumps in specifically to paint that book as bad, low-key violent, or just plain useless. From what I've seen with most of them, they tend to say things like:

"If I believed in God, I'd think He was evil, or a tyrant..." and so on and so forth.

The thing that sticks out to me is the hidden assumption there. The second someone says, "If I believed in God," they're showing at least a tiny shred of doubt—like they might actually believe a little. To me, a true atheist would never even bother with that kind of phrasing or description, because they simply "don't believe." Why would an atheist spend any mental energy pondering God’s image or trying to define His character when they supposedly don't believe in Him? That "supposedly" suggests the reality might be different:

1. A person denies God, but the question is whether they truly don't believe (maybe they do, deep down, but they're suppressing it and aren't even aware of it).
2. A person is mostly just angry at God because of how things clash with the laws of the universe (the fact that we're mortal, everything decays, the refusal to accept that there's a higher power meant to judge humans, etc.).

3. Certain atheists who go as far as calling themselves "militant" atheists (?) (not everyone in the first two groups, obviously); they are, quite literally, militant about their stance. What's funny is that if they really didn't believe, there’d be no reason to be militant. Being antagonistic toward something that doesn't exist makes zero sense. It smells like hidden resentment—maybe some sort of father complex where they just can't accept God as a Father figure. Something like that.

There's also this interesting phenomenon of bitterness. I've noticed plenty of non-believers seem resentful toward religious texts, portraying them through caricatures of beautiful religious verses (making them look way different than they actually are) or being super selective about what they read and comment on. They love highlighting the darker passages to use as "proof" for their atheism.

It feels like their main argument, even though logic should be the priority here. When it comes to the existence of a Creator, no one should be relying on a religious book as their primary argument over logic and philosophy.

And then there's the question of a higher power itself. The Creator of space, time, matter, transience, and so on. Who or what triggered the Big Bang? Why? What existed before the Big Bang?

I've seen this mindset—prioritizing side issues over actual core arguments—quite a bit.

A guy I know (a die-hard atheist) told me his most accurate definition of atheism was that "God most likely doesn't exist." He used "most likely" in the same way scientists use it for theories that are 99.x% certain—basically treated as 100% for all intents and purposes. That was how he felt, but he wanted to be technically precise. To him, that was a more accurate definition than just saying "there is no God." He viewed everything through a strictly scientific lens. Honestly, from his perspective as both an atheist and a scientist, his answer was logical since you can't prove or disprove God's existence. In that sense, he sounded like a real atheist to me. But in other instances, he could sound incredibly bitter about trivial things. Almost aggressive. I never got around to asking him more about it.

My question is: what do you guys think about the idea that atheists might actually believe (perhaps without even knowing it) but are essentially just denying God because they feel a sense of hostility toward Him?
Nathan Doyle Nathan Doyle Member
17 messages
joined May 2018
#2 ·
Gregory Carter67 said:Watching debates and scrolling through discussions by certain atheists, I get the feeling they’re actually more like believers—even if they claim otherwise. Don't get me wrong, they definitely deny God's existence.

Take this, for example. Someone brings up a religious text. A hardcore atheist usually jumps in specifically to paint that book as bad, low-key violent, or just plain useless. From what I've seen with most of them, they tend to say things like:

"If I believed in God, I'd think He was evil, or a tyrant..." and so on and so forth.

The thing that sticks out to me is the hidden assumption there. The second someone says, "If I believed in God," they're showing at least a tiny shred of doubt—like they might actually believe a little. To me, a true atheist would never even bother with that kind of phrasing or description, because they simply "don't believe." Why would an atheist spend any mental energy pondering God’s image or trying to define His character when they supposedly don't believe in Him? That "supposedly" suggests the reality might be different:

1. A person denies God, but the question is whether they truly don't believe (maybe they do, deep down, but they're suppressing it and aren't even aware of it).
2. A person is mostly just angry at God because of how things clash with the laws of the universe (the fact that we're mortal, everything decays, the refusal to accept that there's a higher power meant to judge humans, etc.).

3. Certain atheists who go as far as calling themselves "militant" atheists (?) (not everyone in the first two groups, obviously); they are, quite literally, militant about their stance. What's funny is that if they really didn't believe, there’d be no reason to be militant. Being antagonistic toward something that doesn't exist makes zero sense. It smells like hidden resentment—maybe some sort of father complex where they just can't accept God as a Father figure. Something like that.

There's also this interesting phenomenon of bitterness. I've noticed plenty of non-believers seem resentful toward religious texts, portraying them through caricatures of beautiful religious verses (making them look way different than they actually are) or being super selective about what they read and comment on. They love highlighting the darker passages to use as "proof" for their atheism.

It feels like their main argument, even though logic should be the priority here. When it comes to the existence of a Creator, no one should be relying on a religious book as their primary argument over logic and philosophy.

And then there's the question of a higher power itself. The Creator of space, time, matter, transience, and so on. Who or what triggered the Big Bang? Why? What existed before the Big Bang?

I've seen this mindset—prioritizing side issues over actual core arguments—quite a bit.

A guy I know (a die-hard atheist) told me his most accurate definition of atheism was that "God most likely doesn't exist." He used "most likely" in the same way scientists use it for theories that are 99.x% certain—basically treated as 100% for all intents and purposes. That was how he felt, but he wanted to be technically precise. To him, that was a more accurate definition than just saying "there is no God." He viewed everything through a strictly scientific lens. Honestly, from his perspective as both an atheist and a scientist, his answer was logical since you can't prove or disprove God's existence. In that sense, he sounded like a real atheist to me. But in other instances, he could sound incredibly bitter about trivial things. Almost aggressive. I never got around to asking him more about it.

My question is: what do you guys think about the idea that atheists might actually believe (perhaps without even knowing it) but are essentially just denying God because they feel a sense of hostility toward Him?

But what happens when you say something like, "Man, I just hit the jackpot on a Powerball ticket..."?
Nicole James Nicole James Regular
313 messages
joined Dec 2010
#3 ·
I honestly wouldn't be surprised if people used characters from fairy tales, fables, religious myths, and other works of fiction as a basis for making moral judgments—even without actually believing those stories are true.
darkraven darkraven Active Member
60 messages
joined Apr 2022
#4 ·
Gregory Carter67 said:Watching debates and scrolling through discussions by certain atheists, I get the feeling they’re actually more like believers—even if they claim otherwise. Don't get me wrong, they definitely deny God's existence.

Take this, for example. Someone brings up a religious text. A hardcore atheist usually jumps in specifically to paint that book as bad, low-key violent, or just plain useless. From what I've seen with most of them, they tend to say things like:

"If I believed in God, I'd think He was evil, or a tyrant..." and so on and so forth.

The thing that sticks out to me is the hidden assumption there. The second someone says, "If I believed in God," they're showing at least a tiny shred of doubt—like they might actually believe a little. To me, a true atheist would never even bother with that kind of phrasing or description, because they simply "don't believe." Why would an atheist spend any mental energy pondering God’s image or trying to define His character when they supposedly don't believe in Him? That "supposedly" suggests the reality might be different:

1. A person denies God, but the question is whether they truly don't believe (maybe they do, deep down, but they're suppressing it and aren't even aware of it).
2. A person is mostly just angry at God because of how things clash with the laws of the universe (the fact that we're mortal, everything decays, the refusal to accept that there's a higher power meant to judge humans, etc.).

3. Certain atheists who go as far as calling themselves "militant" atheists (?) (not everyone in the first two groups, obviously); they are, quite literally, militant about their stance. What's funny is that if they really didn't believe, there’d be no reason to be militant. Being antagonistic toward something that doesn't exist makes zero sense. It smells like hidden resentment—maybe some sort of father complex where they just can't accept God as a Father figure. Something like that.

There's also this interesting phenomenon of bitterness. I've noticed plenty of non-believers seem resentful toward religious texts, portraying them through caricatures of beautiful religious verses (making them look way different than they actually are) or being super selective about what they read and comment on. They love highlighting the darker passages to use as "proof" for their atheism.

It feels like their main argument, even though logic should be the priority here. When it comes to the existence of a Creator, no one should be relying on a religious book as their primary argument over logic and philosophy.

And then there's the question of a higher power itself. The Creator of space, time, matter, transience, and so on. Who or what triggered the Big Bang? Why? What existed before the Big Bang?

I've seen this mindset—prioritizing side issues over actual core arguments—quite a bit.

A guy I know (a die-hard atheist) told me his most accurate definition of atheism was that "God most likely doesn't exist." He used "most likely" in the same way scientists use it for theories that are 99.x% certain—basically treated as 100% for all intents and purposes. That was how he felt, but he wanted to be technically precise. To him, that was a more accurate definition than just saying "there is no God." He viewed everything through a strictly scientific lens. Honestly, from his perspective as both an atheist and a scientist, his answer was logical since you can't prove or disprove God's existence. In that sense, he sounded like a real atheist to me. But in other instances, he could sound incredibly bitter about trivial things. Almost aggressive. I never got around to asking him more about it.

My question is: what do you guys think about the idea that atheists might actually believe (perhaps without even knowing it) but are essentially just denying God because they feel a sense of hostility toward Him?

People who claim to believe in God but absolutely loathe Him, or those calling themselves atheists when they really aren't, are basically just confused misotheists or dystheists.

Bottom line, Nicole James is spot on here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Villain

Look, if you have a moral compass and some fictional character does something that goes against everything you stand for, you’ve got every right and freedom to label them as bad or evil. It's basic logic.

And in the real world, what philosophers call the "problem of evil" is a legitimate issue, and it is a valid argument against the existence of a God with certain specific attributes. There are plenty of other similar arguments out there too. So what if someone finds one of those convincing? Does that automatically turn them into some closeted believer who’s just acting out of spite against God? Give me a break.
Gerald Hill Gerald Hill Active Member
93 messages
joined Oct 2016
#5 ·
This is such a wonderful and beneficial topic, especially for those struggling with digestive issues. Thank you so much for sharing this!
casualtiger2 casualtiger2 Regular
330 messages
joined Apr 2022
#6 ·
Here’s yet another one of those hundred repetitive religion threads being dragged over here.
I can already see the predictable headlines coming—"Are atheists sick and immoral?", "Is Jesus Christ God?", or the Islamic variations like "Can God have a son?", followed by "Was Mary truly a virgin?" and "How did Allah/Muhammad control the Moon and make Mars sing Hallelujah..."

Since believers love to believe—take my word for it—there isn't a single logical argument that’s going to make your narrative or faith make sense to someone looking for actual spirituality (unless they're under 12, and even then, I wouldn't bet on it).
Unfortunately, the odds of believers even slightly questioning their stances or pseudo-logical arguments are basically zero.
At worst, you just end up fueling more resentment toward various church dogmas, religious institutions, and fanaticism—none of which actually has anything to do with God, if He exists at all.
The very premises used in these discussions about atheism or agnosticism show either a total lack of basic understanding or pure bad faith—both of which are terrible foundations for a debate. Personally, I hope as few people as possible find themselves stuck in this kind of "dialogue."
brisksurfer3 brisksurfer3 Newcomer
2 messages
joined Jun 2018
#7 ·
The core premise here is that God exists, which would mean atheism should be treated as a behavioral disorder.

Either way, it’s not looking good.
graniteridge31 graniteridge31 Member
19 messages
joined Nov 2014
#8 ·
brisksurfer3;70150425..[/QUOTE said:
We have free will—and the freedom to actually write something meaningful here—so I guess it comes down to this: what’s your most profound thought on the subject? Keeping your own vibrations high helps lift everyone else up too, I suppose. Still, God is the ultimate source of inspiration, so the topic itself is great—though the quality really depends more on how we react than on the question itself, maybe.
Thomas Nelson25 Thomas Nelson25 Regular
582 messages
joined Jan 2021
#9 ·
brisksurfer3 said:The core premise here is that God exists, which would mean atheism should be treated as a behavioral disorder.

Either way, it’s not looking good.

Even he doesn't know.
Justin Baker6 Justin Baker6 Active Member
85 messages
joined May 2018
#10 ·
Quote: Alexander the Great
Gregory Carter67 said:Watching debates and scrolling through discussions by certain atheists, I get the feeling they’re actually more like believers—even if they claim otherwise. Don't get me wrong, they definitely deny God's existence.

Take this, for example. Someone brings up a religious text. A hardcore atheist usually jumps in specifically to paint that book as bad, low-key violent, or just plain useless. From what I've seen with most of them, they tend to say things like:

"If I believed in God, I'd think He was evil, or a tyrant..." and so on and so forth.

The thing that sticks out to me is the hidden assumption there. The second someone says, "If I believed in God," they're showing at least a tiny shred of doubt—like they might actually believe a little. To me, a true atheist would never even bother with that kind of phrasing or description, because they simply "don't believe." Why would an atheist spend any mental energy pondering God’s image or trying to define His character when they supposedly don't believe in Him? That "supposedly" suggests the reality might be different:

1. A person denies God, but the question is whether they truly don't believe (maybe they do, deep down, but they're suppressing it and aren't even aware of it).
2. A person is mostly just angry at God because of how things clash with the laws of the universe (the fact that we're mortal, everything decays, the refusal to accept that there's a higher power meant to judge humans, etc.).

3. Certain atheists who go as far as calling themselves "militant" atheists (?) (not everyone in the first two groups, obviously); they are, quite literally, militant about their stance. What's funny is that if they really didn't believe, there’d be no reason to be militant. Being antagonistic toward something that doesn't exist makes zero sense. It smells like hidden resentment—maybe some sort of father complex where they just can't accept God as a Father figure. Something like that.

There's also this interesting phenomenon of bitterness. I've noticed plenty of non-believers seem resentful toward religious texts, portraying them through caricatures of beautiful religious verses (making them look way different than they actually are) or being super selective about what they read and comment on. They love highlighting the darker passages to use as "proof" for their atheism.

It feels like their main argument, even though logic should be the priority here. When it comes to the existence of a Creator, no one should be relying on a religious book as their primary argument over logic and philosophy.

And then there's the question of a higher power itself. The Creator of space, time, matter, transience, and so on. Who or what triggered the Big Bang? Why? What existed before the Big Bang?

I've seen this mindset—prioritizing side issues over actual core arguments—quite a bit.

A guy I know (a die-hard atheist) told me his most accurate definition of atheism was that "God most likely doesn't exist." He used "most likely" in the same way scientists use it for theories that are 99.x% certain—basically treated as 100% for all intents and purposes. That was how he felt, but he wanted to be technically precise. To him, that was a more accurate definition than just saying "there is no God." He viewed everything through a strictly scientific lens. Honestly, from his perspective as both an atheist and a scientist, his answer was logical since you can't prove or disprove God's existence. In that sense, he sounded like a real atheist to me. But in other instances, he could sound incredibly bitter about trivial things. Almost aggressive. I never got around to asking him more about it.

My question is: what do you guys think about the idea that atheists might actually believe (perhaps without even knowing it) but are essentially just denying God because they feel a sense of hostility toward Him?

Go do something productive and stop obsessing over everyone else's business.
Gregory Carter67 Gregory Carter67 MemberOP
25 messages
joined May 2018
#11 ·
Nicole James said:I honestly wouldn't be surprised if people used characters from fairy tales, fables, religious myths, and other works of fiction as a basis for making moral judgments—even without actually believing those stories are true.

I wouldn't believe it—didn't say I couldn't.
Gregory Carter67 Gregory Carter67 MemberOP
25 messages
joined May 2018
#12 ·
darkraven said:People who claim to believe in God but absolutely loathe Him, or those calling themselves atheists when they really aren't, are basically just confused misotheists or dystheists.

Bottom line, Nicole James is spot on here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Villain

Look, if you have a moral compass and some fictional character does something that goes against everything you stand for, you’ve got every right and freedom to label them as bad or evil. It's basic logic.

And in the real world, what philosophers call the "problem of evil" is a legitimate issue, and it is a valid argument against the existence of a God with certain specific attributes. There are plenty of other similar arguments out there too. So what if someone finds one of those convincing? Does that automatically turn them into some closeted believer who’s just acting out of spite against God? Give me a break.

I'm with you on that.

darkraven said:People who claim to believe in God but absolutely loathe Him, or those calling themselves atheists when they really aren't, are basically just confused misotheists or dystheists.

Bottom line, Nicole James is spot on here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Villain

Look, if you have a moral compass and some fictional character does something that goes against everything you stand for, you’ve got every right and freedom to label them as bad or evil. It's basic logic.

And in the real world, what philosophers call the "problem of evil" is a legitimate issue, and it is a valid argument against the existence of a God with certain specific attributes. There are plenty of other similar arguments out there too. So what if someone finds one of those convincing? Does that automatically turn them into some closeted believer who’s just acting out of spite against God? Give me a break.

That shouldn't even be the starting point for debating God—or anything else about how the world works. Honestly, if that’s someone's "big idea," who am I to judge? But if they're leaning on that as their primary proof for (or against) His existence, then we’re heading straight into the weeds of expectations, mortality, and how we deal with the messy reality of life—the good, the bad, and everything in between. Maybe the issue isn't the universe, but just having the wrong expectations of it. Who actually decided life should be like hitting the Powerball jackpot? Nobody said it had to be all milk and honey.

I’m not saying anyone here is some closeted believer—I just meant they might not even realize they have a spark of faith themselves. I honestly wasn't implying people were faking anything. But look, I truly believe there are folks out there who simply don't believe. Period. I only brought this up because I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one sitting here feeling this way.
Gregory Carter67 Gregory Carter67 MemberOP
25 messages
joined May 2018
#13 ·
Gerald Hill said:This is such a wonderful and beneficial topic, especially for those struggling with digestive issues. Thank you so much for sharing this!

Hopefully things keep moving along smoothly.
Gregory Carter67 Gregory Carter67 MemberOP
25 messages
joined May 2018
#14 ·
casualtiger2 said:Here’s yet another one of those hundred repetitive religion threads being dragged over here.
I can already see the predictable headlines coming—"Are atheists sick and immoral?", "Is Jesus Christ God?", or the Islamic variations like "Can God have a son?", followed by "Was Mary truly a virgin?" and "How did Allah/Muhammad control the Moon and make Mars sing Hallelujah..."

Since believers love to believe—take my word for it—there isn't a single logical argument that’s going to make your narrative or faith make sense to someone looking for actual spirituality (unless they're under 12, and even then, I wouldn't bet on it).
Unfortunately, the odds of believers even slightly questioning their stances or pseudo-logical arguments are basically zero.
At worst, you just end up fueling more resentment toward various church dogmas, religious institutions, and fanaticism—none of which actually has anything to do with God, if He exists at all.
The very premises used in these discussions about atheism or agnosticism show either a total lack of basic understanding or pure bad faith—both of which are terrible foundations for a debate. Personally, I hope as few people as possible find themselves stuck in this kind of "dialogue."

Look, I’m pretty sure if the admins saw this, they’d shut it down immediately—but since the examples you brought up are strictly religious, I doubt anyone is actually diving deep into individual spirituality without it devolving into a massive theological shouting match. Besides, those topics are purely theological. Take something like "was Mary truly a virgin?"—that doesn't belong in a "spirituality" thread. You could frame it as Mariology or perhaps spiritual contemplation regarding her, but the way you titled it suggests people are just going to dump their religious dogmas and theological stances into the comments. And honestly, you can't really stop people from posting whatever pops into their heads. Just to be clear, I wasn't suggesting we debate specific religions in my original question, and I definitely won't be posting stuff like that here. P.S. I don't think atheists are sick or immoral.

casualtiger2 said:Here’s yet another one of those hundred repetitive religion threads being dragged over here.
I can already see the predictable headlines coming—"Are atheists sick and immoral?", "Is Jesus Christ God?", or the Islamic variations like "Can God have a son?", followed by "Was Mary truly a virgin?" and "How did Allah/Muhammad control the Moon and make Mars sing Hallelujah..."

Since believers love to believe—take my word for it—there isn't a single logical argument that’s going to make your narrative or faith make sense to someone looking for actual spirituality (unless they're under 12, and even then, I wouldn't bet on it).
Unfortunately, the odds of believers even slightly questioning their stances or pseudo-logical arguments are basically zero.
At worst, you just end up fueling more resentment toward various church dogmas, religious institutions, and fanaticism—none of which actually has anything to do with God, if He exists at all.
The very premises used in these discussions about atheism or agnosticism show either a total lack of basic understanding or pure bad faith—both of which are terrible foundations for a debate. Personally, I hope as few people as possible find themselves stuck in this kind of "dialogue."

Fair enough. You can claim someone doesn't have a basic grasp of the subject—just like people probably claim you don't. It’s funny how easy it is to label someone’s perspective as "ignorance," though, especially when you get to decide which specific topic they're supposedly clueless about. To each their own, I guess. But let's be real: when you've got two sides clashing on a forum, you aren't exactly going to harvest any wisdom from it. It’s basically just a digital flea market—lots of noise, plenty of chatter, and not much of substance.

The only real issue here is that people actually bother reading this stuff—which is honestly pretty depressing. Most of these posters seem to think they’re doing society some massive favor, but let’s be real: looking at the dialogues on this forum, it’s basically just intellectual bankruptcy 90% of the time.
Gregory Carter67 Gregory Carter67 MemberOP
25 messages
joined May 2018
#15 ·
brisksurfer3 said:The core premise here is that God exists, which would mean atheism should be treated as a behavioral disorder.

Either way, it’s not looking good.

Look, I started this thread—and trust me, that wasn't the premise—so I have no clue where you even got that idea. Even if someone is pissed off about something, I don't go around calling it a behavioral disorder.
Paul Kern2 Paul Kern2 Newcomer
1 message
joined Jun 2018
#16 ·
1. An atheist doesn't push God away out of spite; they do it because they prioritize reason. When an atheist examines the concept of God—given that there is zero visual or auditory evidence—they apply rigorous logic to the idea, and their rational conclusion is that the whole premise is nothing more than pure nonsense.
2. It isn't about being angry at God over some perceived injustice. Rather, an atheist looks at the reality of the world and compares it to the specific version of God presented by believers, finding absolutely no logical connection between the two. They aren't angry at the divine; they are angry at being forced to swallow irrationality.
3. Atheists aren't militant toward God, since you can't fight something you can't see or hear. Their militancy is directed toward people.

An atheist simply refuses to believe in the specific deity being shoved in their face. It comes down to being rational. An atheist might still enjoy religious holidays, and they may even follow certain religious traditions if those traditions make sense on a practical level, but they will never tolerate preaching that defies the bounds of reason. In terms of religious distinctions, an atheist functions as a believer who is a dogmatic heretic—a dogmatic non-believer. Everything ultimately boils down to dogma.
darkraven darkraven Active Member
60 messages
joined Apr 2022
#17 ·
Quote: Alexander the Great
Gregory Carter67 As I was saying:
Look, that shouldn't even be the baseline argument for or against the existence of God—it should be about the world and how natural laws actually function. But hey, if someone wants to pin their whole worldview on that one point, who am I to judge? Really. But if that’s their primary smoking gun for whether there’s a higher power or not, then we’re really getting into the weeds of expectations, mortality, and how we deal with the fact that everything eventually decays. It all boils down to how we accept—or refuse to accept—the good and the bad stuff life throws at us. Honestly, maybe the problem is just having the wrong set of expectations toward God and the universe to begin with. I mean, who decided that life has to be like hitting the Powerball jackpot every single day? Who decided we’re all entitled to live in a land of milk and honey? Life isn't a damn fairy tale, and expecting it to work that way is just asking for trouble.
Look, you have to realize that people in the West have been brainwashed from the cradle with this idea of a personal, intervening God—someone who’s supposedly all-powerful and perfectly good, at least according to those Abrahamic religions, especially Christianity. Honestly, if you don't keep that context front and center when you're debating these topics, you're going to lose the plot. It's especially true when you're talking to atheists; the second they hear the word "God," their brains immediately jump to Yahweh, the specific personal deity from the Christian tradition. You can't just talk about the concept in a vacuum without realizing that for most Americans, that word is already loaded with a massive amount of religious baggage.

You know, whenever these debates start heating up, you always seem to have these other ideas about God lurking in the background. I'm talking about those impersonal concepts—like pantheism—that just sort of hover there, waiting to crash the party. It’s like they’re always part of the subtext, even when nobody is explicitly bringing them up.

"If God wants to stop evil but just can't pull it off, then we’re looking at a guy who isn't all-powerful. Period."
If he’s got the power to do the right thing but chooses not to, then you’re looking at pure malice. Plain and simple. It’s one thing to be incapable—we've all been there, tripping over our own feet or failing because we just didn't have the tools. But when someone has the capacity, the resources, and the ability to act, yet they sit on their hands and watch everything go south? That’s not an accident. That's being malevolent. It’s intentional. I remember this one guy I used to work with back in Chicago; he had every resource needed to fix a massive error in our logistics, but he just watched us struggle because he thought it would make him look more indispensable later. He wasn't incompetent; he was just being a jerk. That's the difference between a mistake and a choice.
If He’s got the power to stop it and actually wants to, then where the hell does all this evil come from? It’s the age-old question that keeps me up at night, staring at the ceiling while wondering if we're just part of some cosmic glitch. If everything is under control, why is the world such a mess? You can't have it both ways without running into a massive logical wall.
If he’s got neither the power to step in nor the desire to do anything about it, then what are we even doing here? If he can't help and won't help, then why call Him god?
Epicurus (allegedly)

The whole "problem of evil" thing only really makes sense if you’re looking at God through this lens of a personal, hands-on intervener. I mean, think about it. If He’s actually omnipotent—if He truly has all the power in the universe—then stopping evil should be a total breeze. It shouldn't be some massive struggle for an all-powerful being. And if He’s also omnibenevolent, if He’s truly all-good, then He... I just want... Stop the evil. Look, I’m just a mortal being here, but I actually possess something called empathy and compassion, and honestly, that should be more than enough to help someone out. When you're talking about an omnibenevolent being, human compassion shouldn't even register on the scale. You could take whatever tiny bit of good found in people and multiply it by infinity—because that's what "omni" means, right? It's basic math.

So, here we go again. It’s like we’re stuck in some kind of loop where evil just keeps showing up, uninvited and unapologetic. Honestly, it makes you wonder—why? It’s like people act as if God isn't even watching, or like the entire universe is just sitting there, totally indifferent to everything going down. It’s pretty heavy when you really sit with it.

Look, if there actually is a God out there, I just can't wrap my head around the type of guy He'd have to be. Imagine someone just standing on a street corner in Chicago, watching a violent assault go down right in front of them—someone getting absolutely brutalized—and they just... keep walking. They don't lift a finger. They don't even flinch. They just turn the corner and grab a coffee like nothing happened. If this being has the literal power to step in and stop that nightmare from happening, but chooses to just stand by and watch? I mean, come on. It’s hard to swallow. It brings me right back to what Epicurus was getting at when he posed that heavy question: "Is He neither able nor willing? Then why call Him god?"

And if you actually stumble upon passages in what’s supposedly His word where He’s personally ordering genocides or doing similar atrocities? Well, that just drives the whole point home even harder. It makes you wonder if this God everyone’s been talking about—the one we were told was all-powerful and perfect—was ever even real to begin with. I mean, he might just be a fictional character cooked up a long time ago.

Look, maybe this isn't the heavy hitter that wins the whole debate, but it’s a damn good point regardless. I mean, think about it—what kind of person with even a shred of a conscience would actually want to take orders from some total monster? Honestly, I wouldn't. *Ma non serviam!* I refuse to serve. ☕

So, does everything feel a little clearer now?

I mentioned before that there are other ways to approach this—arguments that don't just clash with the idea of an all-powerful, all-good God, but actually tear those specific attributes apart. Take the omnipotence paradox, for example. It’s that classic headache: "Can God create a rock so heavy He can't lift it?" Either way you slice it, the logic breaks. If He can't make the rock, He's limited; if He makes it and can't lift it, He's also limited. It's a total loop. Then you've got the free will argument, which basically argues that you can't have true free will if God is also omniscient. If He already knows everything you're ever going to do, are you actually making choices, or are you just following a script? It feels like a massive contradiction. Plus, there's the whole issue with the concept of Hell. Usually, when people talk about this specific version of God, they include Hell in the package deal, but honestly, the existence of such a place doesn't sit right with those divine attributes at all. So, I'm curious—would you find those kinds of arguments more compelling?

It’s not like atheists don't bring them up—I’ve seen them pop up on the forums plenty of times, especially over in the religion threads. Honestly, I couldn't care less about the whole "problem of evil" thing; it's just one of those classic debates. There are plenty of other atheist arguments out there that have absolutely nothing to do with this specific line of reasoning, but yeah, they aren't really what we're talking about here...

Unless, of course, you want to pivot the conversation toward them, just to shake off that tired stereotype that the problem of evil is the only card atheists have left to play.
Nicole James Nicole James Regular
313 messages
joined Dec 2010
#18 ·
Gregory Carter67 said:I wouldn't believe it—didn't say I couldn't.

So, what exactly are we discussing here? 🤔
Paul Anderson15 Paul Anderson15 Member
13 messages
joined May 2018
#19 ·
darkraven said:People who claim to believe in God but absolutely loathe Him, or those calling themselves atheists when they really aren't, are basically just confused misotheists or dystheists.

Bottom line, Nicole James is spot on here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Villain

Look, if you have a moral compass and some fictional character does something that goes against everything you stand for, you’ve got every right and freedom to label them as bad or evil. It's basic logic.

And in the real world, what philosophers call the "problem of evil" is a legitimate issue, and it is a valid argument against the existence of a God with certain specific attributes. There are plenty of other similar arguments out there too. So what if someone finds one of those convincing? Does that automatically turn them into some closeted believer who’s just acting out of spite against God? Give me a break.

If someone identifies as an atheist, then they are an atheist, regardless of whatever emotional confusion they might be going through. Religious affiliation is often a rational choice—fitting into society, playing it safe for the afterlife, and so on—but spirituality is a different beast entirely. It touches the emotional and even the physical aspects of being human, so you can't really pin it down with strict mental labels.
darkraven darkraven Active Member
60 messages
joined Apr 2022
#20 ·
Paul Anderson15 said:If someone identifies as an atheist, then they are an atheist, regardless of whatever emotional confusion they might be going through. Religious affiliation is often a rational choice—fitting into society, playing it safe for the afterlife, and so on—but spirituality is a different beast entirely. It touches the emotional and even the physical aspects of being human, so you can't really pin it down with strict mental labels.

.

Look, if someone actually believes in the existence of a (wicked) God, they aren't atheists. Period. Atheism is defined by the lack of belief in any gods—doesn't matter if you think they're benevolent, neutral, or straight-up evil.

Believing in a god is called theism, plain and simple. If we're talking about believing in some kind of malicious deity, that’s just a specific flavor of theism, not atheism.

End of story. Mic drop.

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