Left Hand Path spirituality

Kevin Ruiz36 said:As far as I can tell, people see left and right paths as a split between black and white magic. Personally, I’d argue there's a gray path that acts as the center. You see this kind of symbolism in the Bible when the sheep are divided into white, black, and speckled—and Jacob makes sure he keeps the speckled ones for himself, since they outnumber the rest.

Gandalf, is that you? 😲

The theologian asserts:
While the statements made by certain believers might come across as vague or superficial, one must bear in mind that if you intend to judge Christianity, you are confronting a tradition brimming with theological depth—a wealth of thought accumulated over two thousand years by some of the most brilliant minds in history. You have the Apostolic Fathers, the Church Fathers, Augustine, St. Bonaventure, Thomas Aquinas, and an entire lineage of thinkers and mystics who poured their lived experiences of faith into thousands of pages of theological and philosophical treatises. You have official Church documents, the decrees of ecumenical councils, various catechisms, Denzinger, the Catholic Encyclopedia, and more. Every conceivable question has been thoroughly debated and its answers "refined" to their absolute limits. One does not necessarily need to be a Christian to recognize that this is, at the very least, anything but "trivial" or "shallow."

A genuine, lived experience of faith certainly wouldn't leave behind a closed and narrow-minded individual who simply insists that Christianity is the sole correct faith. There is undoubtedly a profound richness in the interpretation of algorithms and symbolism within Christian texts, much like there is in all other religions with their own respective myths, gods, and heroes.

However, one can always spot the superficiality of a believer who acts like a parrot, merely repeating memorized texts without any direct comprehension of what is being said. To make matters worse, they present these repetitions as absolute truth.

Did Thomas Aquinas truly believe there was a talking snake, or that every non-believer is destined for hell?

Quincy:

Joseph Bailey41 As specified by: Just a quick correction on an inaccurate quote: When Crowley spoke about ritual childlessness, he was really just talking about plain old masturbation. You know, the usual—wasting seed, solo play, whatever you want to call it. He framed it as being done for "ritual purposes," of course. But the core idea for an LHP practitioner is simple: instead of using that vital energy to create a new life, you redirect all of it inward toward your own personal evolution. in Your faca god / Evolution. 🙂

I'm not quite sure whose quote you think I'm correcting, but I can tell you one thing for certain—it definitely wasn't mine.

To be clear, I wasn't even talking about masturbation or ritualistic childbearing and Crowley—that’s a completely different conversation, and honestly, I actually agree with what you wrote regarding that topic.

I recall mentioning that I’ve gone through Crowley's works, and I found an explicit stance regarding the violent termination of a pregnancy that aligns perfectly with the teachings of the Catholic Church, Islam, and Judaism. I suspect Buddhism holds a similar view as well, though I’m mostly just speculating on that part.

Look, I’m asking you please to stop mixing those two things up and trying to "correct" what isn't actually incorrect.

I was actually wondering myself who exactly Joseph Bailey41 was trying to correct there, but I just couldn't quite find the energy to sit down and write it all out. It really boils down to two things: first, there's the issue of forced abortions, which even Crowley stood against, and then there's his whole habit of throwing out those provocative comments about "infanticide." In reality, he wasn't actually talking about killing children; he was using the term as a way to describe masturbation. He wasn't being literal at all—he was mostly just trolling the Church and the general public to get a bit of shock value out of it.

Yeah, my bad. Honestly, though, seeing hiddenpuma75 bring up Crowley is pretty hilarious to me for several reasons—just like most people in the Telemit circle. Even if they only make up 90% of the group. If I stick to my rule of judging a teacher by the quality of their students, Ace wouldn't exactly be getting a glowing review. To be fair, I should look at him within the context of his era, and from that perspective, his stance on abortion doesn't even surprise me. You can't just build a new "religion" out of thin air; you're always working from what already exists. Some things get flipped upside down, some stay the same, and others just get a slight tweak. Trying to completely overhaul every single value is basically impossible in practice. Staying traditional about things that don't actually benefit you seems to be the smartest strategy... which, funny enough, always ends up conveniently aligning with "True Will" or whatever other buzzword is being used that day. And if your stated goal is simply to acquire some kind of power, well, that isn't even hypocritical.

Andrew White6 said:There seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding of the basic concepts at play. Both terms actually refer to different spiritual trajectories. The terms "Right-Hand Path" (or *dakshinachra*) and "Left-Hand Path" (*vamachakra*) are borrowed from esoteric—meaning by definition non-materialistic and otherworldly—tantric doctrines within Hinduism. The first materialist philosopher in India was Charvaka (around 600 BCE), and he has nothing to do with this development, neither in origin nor in actual meaning.

So, what are we really talking about? According to established tantric beliefs, there is a natural flow of universal cosmic force through the human body from left to right, which mirrors the north-to-south flow of cosmic energy. When the human body is oriented toward the east—with the left hand facing north and the right facing south—it was believed the body was in harmony with the natural flow of the universe. This is the "Right-Hand Path," or *dakshinacha*—the path of alignment with the cosmic order. The reverse orientation is the "Left-Hand Path," or *vamachara*, an antinomian practice believed to run contrary to nature and the cosmic law. It’s essentially a rebellion against the divinely ordained order, which requires a much greater strength of will. Those who choose to "go against the current" articulate themselves more fully and individualize themselves against their surroundings, allowing for greater independence and freedom.

In short, the key distinction between these two paths is the difference between orthodoxy and heterodoxy: between submitting to a "higher power" and resisting it; between merging harmoniously with one's environment and asserting one's own individuality.

A materialist will eventually realize that even after they have "sold their soul to the devil," they still possess a self—allowing them to translate all material events into another form, thereby catching the thread of spirituality and constructing their own world.

Aside from the fact that the Left-Hand Path predates the Judeo-Christian concept of the devil, what you're describing is actually impossible within that specific practice. In a spiritual sense, the "devil"—or the antinomian element found in the Judeo-Christian tradition—is actually the practitioner of the Left-Hand Path themselves. Therefore, "selling one's soul to the devil" would simply mean selling oneself to oneself (the supreme deity of the Left-Hand Path).

...both paths lead in the same direction...

Are the direction of union with God in eternity and the direction of separation in eternity heading the same way? Not even orthodox faiths would claim that. The path toward heaven—that is, toward harmonious unity with God—and the path toward hell—eternal separation from God—are not moving in the same direction. If you try to "walk both paths," you aren't going anywhere (which, according to orthodox beliefs, means you're headed straight to hell/separation from God).

Take a look at some classic Vamacar traditions, like the Aghor. Their ultimate goal is to merge with Shiva. According to tradition, Shiva is seen as the founder of the left, right, and middle paths of Tantra. In its original context, this whole division of paths within classical monism is actually monistic in nature. Most Western definitions and ways of splitting things up usually stem from a dualistic philosophy, more or less.

Chris Williams said:That simply isn't true. It isn't a dangerous path, nor is it some route defined by hedonism and lust. I suspect a few Western fools who have rebranded their own lack of restraint as sacred tantra are nothing more than frauds.

Hooking up and chasing thrills 😁
In its actual, raw sense, Vamacara tantra is both dangerous and extreme. There’s even a shloka that points this out—generally speaking, people say the path of Tantra is as risky as walking on the edge of a razor blade. Honestly, it's way too intense for most folks, whether they're from the West or the East. That's why there have always been so few practitioners throughout history. The practices are extreme by design; that's the whole point. I mean, how many people actually want to spend all day meditating in a graveyard, eating carrion, smearing themselves in ash, and drinking out of a skull? Most people would just die—or at the very least, get incredibly sick—from eating rotten human flesh, which can be a pretty standard thing for a (crazy) Vamacara tantrika. For the vast majority, those risks are just way too high or totally unappealing, and honestly, that’s fine. But then again, you find all kinds of people, though most drop out long before they get anywhere. The reason most people view Left Hand Path practitioners the way they do is simply because they don't fit into "normal" human standards or society, to put it mildly. In the West, they practically don't exist, and even in the East, they're extremely rare nowadays. This whole "LHP tantra" thing popular in the West is mostly just some weird blend of Neo-Tantra and LHP, and these popularized Western ideas about LHP or Tantra really don't have anything to do with the original tantric perspectives.

hiddenpuma75 said:Let me try to translate that for you...

What is COMPLETELY (and I mean 100%) shared by Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Christianity, Islam, and even slaves (for instance, back in ancient Rome or generally speaking) is the simple FACT that the ideal believer or the ideal slave is expected to be submissive to a set of rules imposed by SOMEONE ELSE.
These rules and theologies are often vague, contradictory, demeaning, or even "impossible"... but their goal is to weaken or dismantle the ego we all possess, aiming to harmonize the individual with "something greater than themselves."

When a follower of the Left-Hand Path realizes this fact (whether consciously or not), they decide—either intentionally or instinctively—not to follow anyone else's rules. Instead, they choose to follow themselves, their own principles, and their own independent journey.

In my view, both paths are valid and achievable, but both are incredibly demanding. The Right-Hand Path is difficult because it requires total self-denial, while the Left-Hand Path is tough because you end up "standing apart" from the crowd. You're essentially alone, and being in the minority makes it hard to navigate the standards others have set.

Both paths offer plenty of examples of massive successes and inspirations, as well as huge failures, tragedies, and sheer absurdity.

It’s also easy to see how those on the Left and those on the Right generally fail to understand one another. They tend to despise each other, convinced that their own path is the only viable one, while viewing the other as "evil," bizarre, or pathetic.

Beyond that, there are internal differences within "each hand." For example, Buddhism stands out from other religions because it "has no God," yet a Buddhist still submits to dharma, sangha, and "
Buddha.
On the Left-Hand Path side, we have both atheistic and theistic versions of the way.
Essentially, every atheist is a follower of the Left-Hand Path by default, even if they've never heard the term. It isn't because an atheist does what Christians *think* they do (like sacrificing children 🙄), but simply because they refuse to be "obedient" to a narrative that feels untruthful or externally forced upon them.

(Of course, all of this is incredibly brief and superficial to someone who has no clue about the subject.

And Amy Bennett, you don't really know anything about the "Left-Hand Path," so to you, it's just "Satanism"—basically the caricature that mainstream Christianity created.

But if we acknowledge the fact that Jesus followed a Left-Hand Path in relation to Judaism, then it becomes foolish to claim he was a Satanist.
To the Pharisees, he *was* a Satanist, which is exactly why they executed him.

Similarly, Buddha was considered a heretic by Hindus, yet it would be just as ridiculous to call Buddha a Satanist.

This is a fascinating topic because every single one of us has been, at various times, a "Left-Hander" and a "Right-Hander."

Look, Buddha basically defined himself through the middle way—madhyamamarga. This whole thing isn't about subjective morality or whatever set of rules people here keep trying to push on everything.

neonmarlin39 said:Hooking up and chasing thrills 😁
In its actual, raw sense, Vamacara tantra is both dangerous and extreme. There’s even a shloka that points this out—generally speaking, people say the path of Tantra is as risky as walking on the edge of a razor blade. Honestly, it's way too intense for most folks, whether they're from the West or the East. That's why there have always been so few practitioners throughout history. The practices are extreme by design; that's the whole point. I mean, how many people actually want to spend all day meditating in a graveyard, eating carrion, smearing themselves in ash, and drinking out of a skull? Most people would just die—or at the very least, get incredibly sick—from eating rotten human flesh, which can be a pretty standard thing for a (crazy) Vamacara tantrika. For the vast majority, those risks are just way too high or totally unappealing, and honestly, that’s fine. But then again, you find all kinds of people, though most drop out long before they get anywhere. The reason most people view Left Hand Path practitioners the way they do is simply because they don't fit into "normal" human standards or society, to put it mildly. In the West, they practically don't exist, and even in the East, they're extremely rare nowadays. This whole "LHP tantra" thing popular in the West is mostly just some weird blend of Neo-Tantra and LHP, and these popularized Western ideas about LHP or Tantra really don't have anything to do with the original tantric perspectives.

I have to admit, I haven't heard much about the actual scavenging part. I do know about meditating (or even having sex) in graveyards (like an open-air crematorium) and smearing oneself with the ashes of the deceased, but not because those spots hold some special energy. It seems more like it's because those places are taboo, and Left Hand Path tantra can basically be boiled down to the intentional breaking of taboos. If I've got that wrong, please set me straight. Ideally, send over some links regarding this necro-cannibalism stuff, otherwise we might just be talking in circles.

Joseph Bailey41 said:I have to admit, I haven't heard much about the actual scavenging part. I do know about meditating (or even having sex) in graveyards (like an open-air crematorium) and smearing oneself with the ashes of the deceased, but not because those spots hold some special energy. It seems more like it's because those places are taboo, and Left Hand Path tantra can basically be boiled down to the intentional breaking of taboos. If I've got that wrong, please set me straight. Ideally, send over some links regarding this necro-cannibalism stuff, otherwise we might just be talking in circles.

Aghori Babas Living With The Dead

Aghora: At the Left Hand of God: Robert E. Svoboda



Aghori Sadhus 🙂

Thanks. I just started watching the video—the guy is making some pretty heavy comparisons to Manson. 😬

E: It’s a great film, though I haven't quite made it to the part about eating carrion yet. He’s drinking out of a skull and smearing himself with ash (which actually seems useful for keeping mosquitoes away... I've honestly thought about trying that) and eating food left for the deceased (I'll pass on that one, since I don't eat flowers). So far, the only thing that really grossed me out was him scooping water from an Indian river. That’s just nasty to me. Honestly, it would probably kill me. Probably kill most Americans, too.

Joseph Bailey41 said:I have to admit, I haven't heard much about the actual scavenging part. I do know about meditating (or even having sex) in graveyards (like an open-air crematorium) and smearing oneself with the ashes of the deceased, but not because those spots hold some special energy. It seems more like it's because those places are taboo, and Left Hand Path tantra can basically be boiled down to the intentional breaking of taboos. If I've got that wrong, please set me straight. Ideally, send over some links regarding this necro-cannibalism stuff, otherwise we might just be talking in circles.

They don't really hook up that much, actually. Most stay celibate. And honestly, anyone can get down in a cemetery if that's their thing, just like anywhere else... There are myths floating around about Shava Sadhana and other practices where you sit in a specific pose on a corpse, so maybe that's where the sex associations come from. There's more to the connection with graveyards or smashans than just breaking rules (which are way more hardcore anyway). Plus, people throw everything under the "Aghora" label, so you get all sorts of different philosophies, rituals, definitions, and dogmas. It's kind of a mess, just like everywhere else.

You can find some basic info on the wiki:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aghori

Joseph Bailey41 said:Thanks. I just started watching the video—the guy is making some pretty heavy comparisons to Manson. 😬

E: It’s a great film, though I haven't quite made it to the part about eating carrion yet. He’s drinking out of a skull and smearing himself with ash (which actually seems useful for keeping mosquitoes away... I've honestly thought about trying that) and eating food left for the deceased (I'll pass on that one, since I don't eat flowers). So far, the only thing that really grossed me out was him scooping water from an Indian river. That’s just nasty to me. Honestly, it would probably kill me. Probably kill most Americans, too.

Seems totally lost.

Joseph Bailey41 said:Thanks. I just started watching the video—the guy is making some pretty heavy comparisons to Manson. 😬

E: It’s a great film, though I haven't quite made it to the part about eating carrion yet. He’s drinking out of a skull and smearing himself with ash (which actually seems useful for keeping mosquitoes away... I've honestly thought about trying that) and eating food left for the deceased (I'll pass on that one, since I don't eat flowers). So far, the only thing that really grossed me out was him scooping water from an Indian river. That’s just nasty to me. Honestly, it would probably kill me. Probably kill most Americans, too.

Everyone wants an Aghori to eat a piece of meat from a funeral pyre because it guarantees liberation after death. They basically become these seasoned, professional cannibals that everyone wants to witness hovering around a corpse—and they get paid for it. It ties right back to what you said about "consciously breaking taboos." They’re essentially dismantling the whole concept of attraction versus repulsion. Everyone's sipping whiskey, having deep mystical experiences, knowing some otherworldly secrets... they carry this strange, forgotten, atavistic tradition within them that lives entirely on its own, almost like a parasite.

neonmarlin39 said:They don't really hook up that much, actually. Most stay celibate. And honestly, anyone can get down in a cemetery if that's their thing, just like anywhere else... There are myths floating around about Shava Sadhana and other practices where you sit in a specific pose on a corpse, so maybe that's where the sex associations come from. There's more to the connection with graveyards or smashans than just breaking rules (which are way more hardcore anyway). Plus, people throw everything under the "Aghora" label, so you get all sorts of different philosophies, rituals, definitions, and dogmas. It's kind of a mess, just like everywhere else.

You can find some basic info on the wiki:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aghori

Alright, so that specific group doesn't do the whole sex thing. I assume others do, though. In my opinion, Tantra without sex feels pretty pointless. 🤷

Paul Rogers94 said:Everyone wants an Aghori to eat a piece of meat from a funeral pyre because it guarantees liberation after death. They basically become these seasoned, professional cannibals that everyone wants to witness hovering around a corpse—and they get paid for it. It ties right back to what you said about "consciously breaking taboos." They’re essentially dismantling the whole concept of attraction versus repulsion. Everyone's sipping whiskey, having deep mystical experiences, knowing some otherworldly secrets... they carry this strange, forgotten, atavistic tradition within them that lives entirely on its own, almost like a parasite.

Is this more like it? 😁

Joseph Bailey41 said:Alright, so that specific group doesn't do the whole sex thing. I assume others do, though. In my opinion, Tantra without sex feels pretty pointless. 🤷

An encounter with Kali beats sex any day

Joseph Bailey41 said:Alright, so that specific group doesn't do the whole sex thing. I assume others do, though. In my opinion, Tantra without sex feels pretty pointless. 🤷

That’s actually one of the big reasons why people here in the States get Tantra all mixed up with sex. There isn't really a direct link—not in practice, not in theory, and definitely not in what the word "Tantra" actually means. To put it simply, it's just a spiritual, psychological, and physical practice meant to unite Jiva with Shiv—basically merging individual consciousness with cosmic consciousness, or Atman with Paratman.

Paul Rogers94 said:An encounter with Kali beats sex any day

Feel free to keep that thought to yourself. Personally, I find Shiv much more intense. 😁

neonmarlin39 said:That’s actually one of the big reasons why people here in the States get Tantra all mixed up with sex. There isn't really a direct link—not in practice, not in theory, and definitely not in what the word "Tantra" actually means. To put it simply, it's just a spiritual, psychological, and physical practice meant to unite Jiva with Shiv—basically merging individual consciousness with cosmic consciousness, or Atman with Paratman.

Or maybe it is... 😳 🙂