Is a lie more useful than the truth? (Religion)

Sam Martinez9 said:But once they transition to atheism, they simply cease to be believers. My focus here isn't on that shift; rather, I am looking at the fundamental ways in which believers perceive the world versus how atheists do. It is an exploration of those core cognitive differences.

I am comparing the internal logic and perspectives of the atheist and the believer.

To be clear, I'm not discussing the journey of how a believer becomes an atheist, or vice versa. That is a massive, separate subject entirely—just as expansive as the question of *how believers and atheists actually conceptualize reality.*

One can also move from one faith to another.

You seem to think that being an atheist automatically makes someone more open-minded than a believer. But just because an atheist doesn't believe in God doesn't mean they aren't prone to believing in all sorts of other things or being narrow-minded in other ways.

Anyway, since we’ve already strayed from the main point—and let's be honest, we have a habit of drifting into side discussions or entirely irrelevant threads—I wanted to bring us back to the core question: is a lie more useful than the truth, particularly when it comes to religion?

In my view, it isn't.

The reality is that religious falsehoods can offer benefits to both society at large and individuals alike, but I firmly believe those same benefits could be achieved through the truth. Furthermore, a lie carries a cost; beyond its utility, it inevitably causes harm.

To put it plainly, for a certain segment of the population, religion serves as a tool to confront and overcome the fear of death. However, one can conquer that fear without relying on a fabrication. When someone manages to face their mortality through truth rather than illusion, they emerge as a stronger, more grounded individual. They have truly mastered that fear, leaving no room for that nagging little doubt to creep back in: *but what if there really is nothing after this?*

Overcoming the fear of death is no different from overcoming any other deep-seated fear. A person has to learn how to govern themselves, master their impulses, and tackle their anxieties head-on. It is only then that one becomes a complete human being—at least by our modern standards.

Ultimately, retreating into a lie to escape fear is a misguided path that does far more damage than good.

A lie isn't any more useful than the truth; you just have to prove which one is actually what you're looking at.

Melissa Stewart6 said:A lie isn't any more useful than the truth; you just have to prove which one is actually what you're looking at.

Useful for whom? 😁

Jacob Cooper5 said:Does believing in an afterlife actually help someone, even if nobody’s ever come forward to claim they saw anything on the other side?

Look, I'm an atheist. But I can't bring myself to agree with those certain types of atheists who insist that Faith is nothing but a useless distraction. I've found myself staring down the barrel of the idea of total, absolute non-existence...
The thought that when I die, everything just gets wiped clean. Like I never even existed in the first place.
I catch myself picturing that moment right before death—all my experiences, my entire life, just sitting there on the edge of this massive, cold void that’s going to erase every single trace of me without a shred of mercy. Pretty depressing, isn't it?

Even if that’s the reality, wouldn't it be better to believe there's something waiting for us after we go?
At the very least, it makes me feel better. Being able to find satisfaction in the present moment actually has a positive impact on how I live right now.
In that sense, I don't see why those stubborn, narrow-minded atheists feel the need to lecture theists about the "pointlessness" of religion.

From a philosophical standpoint, it's just that eternal tug-of-war between abstract concepts and our own direct experience...

OMG, NO! Let's flip the script for a sec: imagine everything you do lasts for another 100 years. No, wait, a billion years... NO! Wrong! Like, 10^10^10 years... nope! Still wrong! Like, forever.

That dumb mistake you made when you were 20? Well, tough luck, you gotta live with that for eternity.
That awesome thing you did at 31? Yeah, you're still dealing with the fallout from that 25,000,000,000 years later. Talk about being a handful... as if nothing else happened in the meantime.
Proud of your kids and grandkids? What about the fact that your great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandkid won't even know where your people came from?

Thinking that life *isn't* finite would be way more depressing. That's easily the worst take ever.

Olivia Evans8 said:OMG, NO! Let's flip the script for a sec: imagine everything you do lasts for another 100 years. No, wait, a billion years... NO! Wrong! Like, 10^10^10 years... nope! Still wrong! Like, forever.

That dumb mistake you made when you were 20? Well, tough luck, you gotta live with that for eternity.
That awesome thing you did at 31? Yeah, you're still dealing with the fallout from that 25,000,000,000 years later. Talk about being a handful... as if nothing else happened in the meantime.
Proud of your kids and grandkids? What about the fact that your great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandkid won't even know where your people came from?

Thinking that life *isn't* finite would be way more depressing. That's easily the worst take ever.

Sure, but someone who believes in an afterlife can just convince themselves they earned a reward instead of a punishment based on their own little set of rules. In that case, I guess faith does its job.

Jacob Cooper5 said:Sure, but someone who believes in an afterlife can just convince themselves they earned a reward instead of a punishment based on their own little set of rules. In that case, I guess faith does its job.

And honestly, that’s exactly what pushed me away from religion in the first place. I mean, what’s even the point of getting some eternal prize for a single lifetime of work?

Like, sure, you saved a kid from starving today, but still collecting perks ten billion years down the line... I don't know, come on!

Olivia Evans8 said:And honestly, that’s exactly what pushed me away from religion in the first place. I mean, what’s even the point of getting some eternal prize for a single lifetime of work?

Like, sure, you saved a kid from starving today, but still collecting perks ten billion years down the line... I don't know, come on!

What’s wrong with that? 😁

Olivia Evans8 said:And honestly, that’s exactly what pushed me away from religion in the first place. I mean, what’s even the point of getting some eternal prize for a single lifetime of work?

Like, sure, you saved a kid from starving today, but still collecting perks ten billion years down the line... I don't know, come on!

You'll never be a tycoon. 😁

Jacob Cooper5 said:What’s wrong with that? 😁

It’s pathetic. Honestly, it’s just sad if anyone actually thinks this is okay...

Olivia Evans8 said:It’s pathetic. Honestly, it’s just sad if anyone actually thinks this is okay...

What’s pathetic—is the fact that you’re getting away with it without any consequences at all.

Olivia Evans8 said:It’s pathetic. Honestly, it’s just sad if anyone actually thinks this is okay...

The point isn't whether it's "acceptable"—it's about making it look irresistible.

Jacob Cooper5 said:What’s pathetic—is the fact that you’re getting away with it without any consequences at all.

Seriously? That was such a cheap shot, especially since I clearly laid out exactly what the issue is...

Ethan Gomez82 said:The point isn't whether it's "acceptable"—it's about making it look irresistible.

Seriously though, if you find that kind of thing appealing, it honestly says a lot about you...

Olivia Evans8 said:Seriously? That was such a cheap shot, especially since I clearly laid out exactly what the issue is...

"Sure, you saved that kid from starving, but if you're still reaping the benefits ten billion years down the line... I mean, come on!"

Is that really an argument?

If you’re basing your entire worldview on either atheist arguments or religious doctrines, then you aren't actually forming an independent opinion at all.

I mean, if someone is over thirty years old and still hasn't grasped the reality of aging, the complexities of life, or how much the younger generation is evolving right before their eyes, they don't even need to pick up a textbook or browse Wikipedia; they could probably find all their "answers" just by sitting in a pew and listening to a preacher.

Jacob Cooper5 said:"Sure, you saved that kid from starving, but if you're still reaping the benefits ten billion years down the line... I mean, come on!"

Is that really an argument?

You’re totally fixated on the idea of "getting away with it," but my point was actually about how the reward or punishment is just way too extreme compared to what happened.

Look, I’m all for punishments or rewards that actually make sense, but this is just completely out of whack...

Olivia Evans8 said:You’re totally fixated on the idea of "getting away with it," but my point was actually about how the reward or punishment is just way too extreme compared to what happened.

Look, I’m all for punishments or rewards that actually make sense, but this is just completely out of whack...

Look, I already told you—just because someone is religious doesn't mean they're sitting there thinking their life choices earned them a one-way ticket to hell.
The point I'm trying to make isn't about some divine rulebook; it's about human psychology and what people actually get out of believing these things.
You seem convinced that every believer who messed up along the way is just waiting for their cosmic retribution. But honestly? That's just not how it works in the real world. Most people are banking on Heaven—because let's face it, if they didn't, the whole belief system would fall apart. At its core, religion is just a way to promise a carrot for the good folks and a stick for the bad ones...

Jacob Cooper5 said:Look, I already told you—just because someone is religious doesn't mean they're sitting there thinking their life choices earned them a one-way ticket to hell.
The point I'm trying to make isn't about some divine rulebook; it's about human psychology and what people actually get out of believing these things.
You seem convinced that every believer who messed up along the way is just waiting for their cosmic retribution. But honestly? That's just not how it works in the real world. Most people are banking on Heaven—because let's face it, if they didn't, the whole belief system would fall apart. At its core, religion is just a way to promise a carrot for the good folks and a stick for the bad ones...

There you go again with the hell talk. Honestly, I couldn't care less about hell.

The real issue for me is how crazy the reward is compared to the punishment.

You wrote:
Quincy:

Sure, but a believer can totally believe that, by their own standards, they've earned a reward instead of a punishment. In that case, faith really helps them out.

And I already mentioned that it’s totally ridiculous to expect an never-ending reward.

The thing is, nothing can stay a reward forever; eventually, it just turns into a punishment, and that’s where everything goes wrong.