Will there ever be peace?

Sarah Nguyen96 said:Only the corrupt officials sitting in their offices benefit from politics. Regular people are expected to just adapt to whatever they decide. I'm glad we young people aren't interested. There's no point in getting involved anyway.

That kind of apathy is exactly what lets those guys stay comfortable in their offices forever.

@yakuzza - You really have a knack for making a person stop and actually think about things for a second.

Thomas Nelson25 said:Let's say technology finally unlocks a whole new economy—where resources and energy just aren't an issue anymore. Think along the lines of that Star Trek model.

We'd still probably need some kind of global government, though I don't see it being a democracy at the top level—maybe we keep the democratic stuff for local governance instead.

As for the "spiritual awakening" or whatever you all call this "shift in consciousness"... that’s gonna take generations. It's a slow burn. That said, there's definitely been a trend moving in that direction since the late 70s. We're nowhere near a critical mass for massive societal shifts, but it's enough to keep things relatively peaceful for now.

But look, we both know how it goes—one major crisis hits and people revert back to animals. It all comes down to survival.

But who is actually manufacturing these crises?
How does the mechanism work, really? You just shout "Crisis!" into the void, and suddenly everyone comes running with their gifts and solutions, right? 🤣

It makes you wonder... isn't there someone out there who is simply addicted to the chaos? 😁

There is this particular definition of war that goes like this: war is simply a state of consciousness.

I suppose the same logic applies to peace, if one thinks about it long enough.👍

Larry Moore83 said:But who is actually manufacturing these crises?
How does the mechanism work, really? You just shout "Crisis!" into the void, and suddenly everyone comes running with their gifts and solutions, right? 🤣

It makes you wonder... isn't there someone out there who is simply addicted to the chaos? 😁

.. those people who mistake shadows for substance .. they've lost their way entirely.😬

How does it work? You just scream "Crisis!" and suddenly everyone comes running with their offerings, right? :rofl

.. I'm glad to see you're still finding ways to shout into the void.👋

Who talks about what? It's all just crisis addiction.😁

It’s a rather melancholy tale of a small town.

And then, you might actually see some peace.😍

I mean, seriously—this guy is used to pulling in, say, $100 billion every single year. Then one year comes along where he only clears $90 billion instead of that usual hundred, and suddenly it’s all "Crisis! 🙂".
And the second "he" hits a rough patch, we're all expected to everyone just tighten our belts and suffer for it. Instead of him taking the hit, we're the ones paying the price. 🤣

Michael Gonzalez77 said:Think about it: even if a person listens to themselves and tries to find mental and emotional harmony, they’re still living inside an illusion—they’re still living as a persona. The world itself doesn't change; instead, human perception shifts so much that you finally see through the veil. You realize it's all an illusion, or perhaps like a vivid dream so convincing that the only way to feel it is to get lost in it and mistake it for reality.

We’re essentially living in a "double dream." Most people aren't even aware they're trapped in an illusion. They genuinely believe that their mind—which is really just a collection of impressions and distorted perceptions—is the ultimate truth. To them, that distorted mental map *is* reality.

Look, you still have to LIVE that illusory life. Your job is to actually act with some damn integrity while you're in it. Go ahead, dream your dream—but don't go bragging about how you were stealing and beating up kids in your sleep... whether it's a dream or this "conscious" version of one. Even if the world is an illusion, that illusion still has its own rules, virtues, and total madness.

David Vaughn75 said:That kind of apathy is exactly what lets those guys stay comfortable in their offices forever.

I don't care if they stay in those chairs. 🙂

steelgardener22 said:Look, you still have to LIVE that illusory life. Your job is to actually act with some damn integrity while you're in it. Go ahead, dream your dream—but don't go bragging about how you were stealing and beating up kids in your sleep... whether it's a dream or this "conscious" version of one. Even if the world is an illusion, that illusion still has its own rules, virtues, and total madness.

It’s only humans who can be judged for having "virtues and vices." Everything else is just "non-virtue," which really just points to the level of intellect used to measure it. This whole concept of illusion stems from ignorance—essentially, identifying consciousness with things it isn't—or, conversely, reaching that stage of spiritual growth where you realize what consciousness is *not*. For consciousness itself, there is no such thing as an "external illusion." There is only consciousness and its perception of what it is or isn't.

So, it's not that the world is inherently an illusion. Rather, it's the impression formed within the mind due to the laws of Maya—that illusion where everything feels separate and tangibly real.

As long as consciousness identifies with labels like being Catholic or Muslim, belonging to a specific nation or race, holding a certain profession, or even being an artist, a scientist, a man, or a woman, and letting those things drive their actions—we're talking about being caught up in a dualistic, illusory existence. It's the trap of the "limited self," which doesn't actually exist.

On the other hand, "virtue and vice" are mostly just cultural and civilizational norms—taboos, prohibitions, and social expectations. Anything that impacts spiritual growth can be utilized: if it blocks you, you use it to transcend; if it encourages you, you use it to fuel further development, right up until the point where consciousness stops clinging to any of it.

Then there's what I call the "golden shackles of goodness." This happens when consciousness identifies itself with "good deeds." That’s just as much of an illusion as anything else, and honestly, it’s even more restrictive than being "bad." It’s much easier for consciousness to detach from "bad" actions, whereas it tends to cling to "good" ones without ever realizing it needs to let go of that identity too.

Larry Moore83 said:But who is actually manufacturing these crises?
How does the mechanism work, really? You just shout "Crisis!" into the void, and suddenly everyone comes running with their gifts and solutions, right? 🤣

It makes you wonder... isn't there someone out there who is simply addicted to the chaos? 😁

That kind of behavior is just human nature... survival is pure instinct—there’s zero room for logic there, let alone any higher spiritual reality.

It doesn't even matter who's pulling the strings (politicians)—it's about *why* these crises happen. It's pure materialism and wanting control over space and time... basically just greed for the sake of it, which isn't even a necessity. It's just wasting resources.

So, any utopia would need a totally new economy... all those failed "inventions" from the past aren't gonna cut it.

Michael Gonzalez77 said:It’s only humans who can be judged for having "virtues and vices." Everything else is just "non-virtue," which really just points to the level of intellect used to measure it. This whole concept of illusion stems from ignorance—essentially, identifying consciousness with things it isn't—or, conversely, reaching that stage of spiritual growth where you realize what consciousness is *not*. For consciousness itself, there is no such thing as an "external illusion." There is only consciousness and its perception of what it is or isn't.

So, it's not that the world is inherently an illusion. Rather, it's the impression formed within the mind due to the laws of Maya—that illusion where everything feels separate and tangibly real.

As long as consciousness identifies with labels like being Catholic or Muslim, belonging to a specific nation or race, holding a certain profession, or even being an artist, a scientist, a man, or a woman, and letting those things drive their actions—we're talking about being caught up in a dualistic, illusory existence. It's the trap of the "limited self," which doesn't actually exist.

On the other hand, "virtue and vice" are mostly just cultural and civilizational norms—taboos, prohibitions, and social expectations. Anything that impacts spiritual growth can be utilized: if it blocks you, you use it to transcend; if it encourages you, you use it to fuel further development, right up until the point where consciousness stops clinging to any of it.

Then there's what I call the "golden shackles of goodness." This happens when consciousness identifies itself with "good deeds." That’s just as much of an illusion as anything else, and honestly, it’s even more restrictive than being "bad." It’s much easier for consciousness to detach from "bad" actions, whereas it tends to cling to "good" ones without ever realizing it needs to let go of that identity too.

So where's the line for "spiritual development"... or is it just a matter of higher vs. lower illusions? What level are you writing from here—are you speaking from a state of high spiritual realization (setting the scale for things), or are you operating from a lower illusion by exposing a higher one?

Basically, the world itself isn't illusory; rather, it's the impression of consciousness (caused by the laws of Maya, the Illusion that makes everything seem separate and real) that builds up through mental impressions.

The world has elements of illusion in its instability; everything is born, grows, ages, and dies... from people to mountains to entire galaxies. Old folks talk about some heavenly paradise that's eternal, where nothing is born or dies... I used to say that world was non-illusory. But honestly, even this world is recognized as an illusion by those who are enlightened... and as such, it stops being an "illusion" and just becomes something explainable. Everything is relative...

As long as consciousness identifies at levels like Catholic or Muslim, or as a member of a specific nation, race, profession, or as an artist or scientist, man or woman and acts accordingly—we're talking about being entangled in a dualistic, illusory existence of a "limited self" that doesn't actually exist.

Are you actually "entangled" in duality? Or as a guy, could you just throw on a sundress and walk down your street without a second thought because you aren't strictly "man" or "woman"—plus, a breezy summer dress is way more comfortable in this heat? Are you actually part of human reproduction, or would you rather this whole world just vanish... because why bother with birth and creating all these illusory relationships anyway?

"Virtue and vice" are, on the other hand, mostly phenomena of cultural and civilizational norms, taboos, prohibitions, and what is deemed desirable.

I don't care about "mostly."

Then there's the "golden shackles of goodness," where consciousness identifies with "good deeds". That’s also an illusion, and it’s even more restrictive than "badness"—because you can shake off the "bad" easily, but with the "good," consciousness clings to it for no reason, and you have to consciously work to free yourself from that kind of identification.

Isn't there a third option here besides what you're laying out? Say, some panhandler on a street corner in Chicago—cigarette hanging out of her mouth, baby in tow—begging for "food money." I hand over a twenty, she gets fed, and I feel like a good person. Then tomorrow, I change my mind, realize she’s just playing on people's emotions to scam them, and I don't give her a dime—now I feel good again. Is there actually a third way to look at this?

Thomas Nelson25 said:That kind of behavior is just human nature... survival is pure instinct—there’s zero room for logic there, let alone any higher spiritual reality.

It doesn't even matter who's pulling the strings (politicians)—it's about *why* these crises happen. It's pure materialism and wanting control over space and time... basically just greed for the sake of it, which isn't even a necessity. It's just wasting resources.

So, any utopia would need a totally new economy... all those failed "inventions" from the past aren't gonna cut it.

You also have to consider the fact that what defines a human being is that we don't actually have any natural enemies. By definition, humans aren't under threat; there is no such thing as a "non-human," and neither is there an "overman." So, given those circumstances, I have to ask: what instinct? What survival?
What kind of crisis are we even talking about, for crying out loud...🙂

🤣

Larry Moore83 said:You also have to consider the fact that what defines a human being is that we don't actually have any natural enemies. By definition, humans aren't under threat; there is no such thing as a "non-human," and neither is there an "overman." So, given those circumstances, I have to ask: what instinct? What survival?
What kind of crisis are we even talking about, for crying out loud...🙂

🤣

Honestly? Pure paradise. 😁

Just checking out how human society actually functions... might be some flaws in there.

So, what even is a person?

And what's wrong with that? He's just being human.
So, what about the superman?

Look, being a decent person isn't exactly easy—it takes actually stopping to figure out the right answer. 😉

David Vaughn75 said:But that’s exactly where we hit the wall.

See, while he's sitting there scrolling through his phone, the soldiers from his own country are out there doing the dirty work—fighting wars and killing people—and he couldn't care less. It doesn't even register.

You talk about needing "awareness," like if people actually gave a damn, they'd use their votes to kick out the warmongers and the agitators at the ballot box. But that? That just isn't happening. If anything, it's the opposite. Young people today are becoming more and more disconnected from politics. It’s all about chasing a paycheck and finding a date—that's pretty much the entire extent of their worldview.

Responsibility is an individual matter.

Someone holding a smartphone shouldn't be held accountable for the actions of a soldier, regardless of whether that soldier belongs to their own nation or a foreign one.

The responsibility lies with the soldier. The soldier is the one holding the rifle, operating the tank, or firing the mortar...

We aren't omnipotent; we can only do what is within our power. That is where our true responsibility lies—asking ourselves if we have done everything possible. Take yourself, for instance. Suppose you despise certain officials in Washington. Can you personally do anything to remove a Secretary you disagree with? And even if you could, how would you ensure someone just as bad doesn't simply slide into that seat under a different name?

Perhaps young people have simply realized that they are powerless to change the system.

That said, the burden of taking action arguably falls more heavily on the older generation. Older citizens understand the levers of power and know they have the agency to pull them. The youth are still just learning the ropes and trying to find their footing in society.

Thomas Nelson25 said:Let's say technology finally unlocks a whole new economy—where resources and energy just aren't an issue anymore. Think along the lines of that Star Trek model.

We'd still probably need some kind of global government, though I don't see it being a democracy at the top level—maybe we keep the democratic stuff for local governance instead.

As for the "spiritual awakening" or whatever you all call this "shift in consciousness"... that’s gonna take generations. It's a slow burn. That said, there's definitely been a trend moving in that direction since the late 70s. We're nowhere near a critical mass for massive societal shifts, but it's enough to keep things relatively peaceful for now.

But look, we both know how it goes—one major crisis hits and people revert back to animals. It all comes down to survival.

If you look at the total wealth held by humanity today, there is actually enough to go around for everyone. The issue isn't scarcity; it's the distribution. We have a situation where the top 1% of people in America hold more than the bottom 90% combined.

The core of the problem lies elsewhere—it’s pure greed. It’s this compulsive need to hoard. I often think of it like a squirrel frantically stuffing hazelnuts into a hole for a winter it won't survive. The difference is that most people—and I don't just mean the ultra-wealthy, but a huge portion of the population—are sitting on piles of stuff they don't need and will never use. And when the end comes, they certainly can't take any of those gadgets or luxury cars with them.

Then, you factor in war. War doesn't create wealth; it systematically destroys it. It’s pure devastation. You don't get back the homes leveled by a missile strike. During wartime, everything else just grinds to a halt; nothing is being built, nothing is being improved... it's all just stagnation and loss.

So, we are looking at two fundamentally irrational human behaviors.

Yet, for some reason, most people don't see anything controversial about it.

steelgardener22 said:So where's the line for "spiritual development"... or is it just a matter of higher vs. lower illusions? What level are you writing from here—are you speaking from a state of high spiritual realization (setting the scale for things), or are you operating from a lower illusion by exposing a higher one?

Basically, the world itself isn't illusory; rather, it's the impression of consciousness (caused by the laws of Maya, the Illusion that makes everything seem separate and real) that builds up through mental impressions.

The world has elements of illusion in its instability; everything is born, grows, ages, and dies... from people to mountains to entire galaxies. Old folks talk about some heavenly paradise that's eternal, where nothing is born or dies... I used to say that world was non-illusory. But honestly, even this world is recognized as an illusion by those who are enlightened... and as such, it stops being an "illusion" and just becomes something explainable. Everything is relative...

As long as consciousness identifies at levels like Catholic or Muslim, or as a member of a specific nation, race, profession, or as an artist or scientist, man or woman and acts accordingly—we're talking about being entangled in a dualistic, illusory existence of a "limited self" that doesn't actually exist.

Are you actually "entangled" in duality? Or as a guy, could you just throw on a sundress and walk down your street without a second thought because you aren't strictly "man" or "woman"—plus, a breezy summer dress is way more comfortable in this heat? Are you actually part of human reproduction, or would you rather this whole world just vanish... because why bother with birth and creating all these illusory relationships anyway?

"Virtue and vice" are, on the other hand, mostly phenomena of cultural and civilizational norms, taboos, prohibitions, and what is deemed desirable.

I don't care about "mostly."

Then there's the "golden shackles of goodness," where consciousness identifies with "good deeds". That’s also an illusion, and it’s even more restrictive than "badness"—because you can shake off the "bad" easily, but with the "good," consciousness clings to it for no reason, and you have to consciously work to free yourself from that kind of identification.

Isn't there a third option here besides what you're laying out? Say, some panhandler on a street corner in Chicago—cigarette hanging out of her mouth, baby in tow—begging for "food money." I hand over a twenty, she gets fed, and I feel like a good person. Then tomorrow, I change my mind, realize she’s just playing on people's emotions to scam them, and I don't give her a dime—now I feel good again. Is there actually a third way to look at this?

Illusion isn't some moral thing—it’s not "good" or "bad." It’s just a factual state of being. Think about it: life itself is an illusion because it only exists through the lens of the mind. Our consciousness relies entirely on the impressions fed to us. Without those impressions, there is no mind; without a mind, there is no life, no experience, and no sense of self. In that void, personal existence simply doesn't exist. It's all illusory.

The core issue with people is that they just collect a mountain of artificial impressions. They end up building this entire separate psychological universe inside themselves—a world within a world that isn't even real, much like trying to navigate a dream.

The whole spiritual path is essentially an illusion. It’s that specific moment when consciousness starts moving forward along the path, which is really just a form of advanced imagination. But here’s the distinction: while an average person is tangled up in mental impressions—viewing the world as a solid, undeniable reality—on the Spiritual Path, you begin to experience the unreality of life firsthand. It isn't just an intellectual concept; you actually feel it.

steelgardener22 said:So where's the line for "spiritual development"... or is it just a matter of higher vs. lower illusions? What level are you writing from here—are you speaking from a state of high spiritual realization (setting the scale for things), or are you operating from a lower illusion by exposing a higher one?

Basically, the world itself isn't illusory; rather, it's the impression of consciousness (caused by the laws of Maya, the Illusion that makes everything seem separate and real) that builds up through mental impressions.

The world has elements of illusion in its instability; everything is born, grows, ages, and dies... from people to mountains to entire galaxies. Old folks talk about some heavenly paradise that's eternal, where nothing is born or dies... I used to say that world was non-illusory. But honestly, even this world is recognized as an illusion by those who are enlightened... and as such, it stops being an "illusion" and just becomes something explainable. Everything is relative...

As long as consciousness identifies at levels like Catholic or Muslim, or as a member of a specific nation, race, profession, or as an artist or scientist, man or woman and acts accordingly—we're talking about being entangled in a dualistic, illusory existence of a "limited self" that doesn't actually exist.

Are you actually "entangled" in duality? Or as a guy, could you just throw on a sundress and walk down your street without a second thought because you aren't strictly "man" or "woman"—plus, a breezy summer dress is way more comfortable in this heat? Are you actually part of human reproduction, or would you rather this whole world just vanish... because why bother with birth and creating all these illusory relationships anyway?

"Virtue and vice" are, on the other hand, mostly phenomena of cultural and civilizational norms, taboos, prohibitions, and what is deemed desirable.

I don't care about "mostly."

Then there's the "golden shackles of goodness," where consciousness identifies with "good deeds". That’s also an illusion, and it’s even more restrictive than "badness"—because you can shake off the "bad" easily, but with the "good," consciousness clings to it for no reason, and you have to consciously work to free yourself from that kind of identification.

Isn't there a third option here besides what you're laying out? Say, some panhandler on a street corner in Chicago—cigarette hanging out of her mouth, baby in tow—begging for "food money." I hand over a twenty, she gets fed, and I feel like a good person. Then tomorrow, I change my mind, realize she’s just playing on people's emotions to scam them, and I don't give her a dime—now I feel good again. Is there actually a third way to look at this?

The material world is constantly shifting; it doesn't hold any real substance. Even those higher planes—the more advanced dimensions where different beings exist—are essentially illusions, just much more stable versions of our own reality. In those realms, things like psychological suffering don't even exist because they are far more energetically grounded. But above all of that, there is a dimension of pure spiritual energy. That realm shares absolutely nothing with the lives of living beings. There is no such thing as an eternal being; a "being" is just a temporary shape, much like how entire civilizations are merely fleeting patterns, whether they endure for a long time or a short one.

steelgardener22 said:So where's the line for "spiritual development"... or is it just a matter of higher vs. lower illusions? What level are you writing from here—are you speaking from a state of high spiritual realization (setting the scale for things), or are you operating from a lower illusion by exposing a higher one?

Basically, the world itself isn't illusory; rather, it's the impression of consciousness (caused by the laws of Maya, the Illusion that makes everything seem separate and real) that builds up through mental impressions.

The world has elements of illusion in its instability; everything is born, grows, ages, and dies... from people to mountains to entire galaxies. Old folks talk about some heavenly paradise that's eternal, where nothing is born or dies... I used to say that world was non-illusory. But honestly, even this world is recognized as an illusion by those who are enlightened... and as such, it stops being an "illusion" and just becomes something explainable. Everything is relative...

As long as consciousness identifies at levels like Catholic or Muslim, or as a member of a specific nation, race, profession, or as an artist or scientist, man or woman and acts accordingly—we're talking about being entangled in a dualistic, illusory existence of a "limited self" that doesn't actually exist.

Are you actually "entangled" in duality? Or as a guy, could you just throw on a sundress and walk down your street without a second thought because you aren't strictly "man" or "woman"—plus, a breezy summer dress is way more comfortable in this heat? Are you actually part of human reproduction, or would you rather this whole world just vanish... because why bother with birth and creating all these illusory relationships anyway?

"Virtue and vice" are, on the other hand, mostly phenomena of cultural and civilizational norms, taboos, prohibitions, and what is deemed desirable.

I don't care about "mostly."

Then there's the "golden shackles of goodness," where consciousness identifies with "good deeds". That’s also an illusion, and it’s even more restrictive than "badness"—because you can shake off the "bad" easily, but with the "good," consciousness clings to it for no reason, and you have to consciously work to free yourself from that kind of identification.

Isn't there a third option here besides what you're laying out? Say, some panhandler on a street corner in Chicago—cigarette hanging out of her mouth, baby in tow—begging for "food money." I hand over a twenty, she gets fed, and I feel like a good person. Then tomorrow, I change my mind, realize she’s just playing on people's emotions to scam them, and I don't give her a dime—now I feel good again. Is there actually a third way to look at this?

Asking this question feels like we're trivializing the whole issue when it comes to identification.

Everything we claim to be—whether it’s being a man or a woman, an American, an engineer, or a judge—is really just our consciousness latching onto things that don't actually exist. These identities are nothing more than psychological constructs, simple social conventions built from pieces of human imagination. We rely on our five senses to perceive them, but they lack any true substance. The problem is that we get so consumed by these labels that we surrender our entire existence to them. Because we define ourselves through these imaginary categories, we can't even see anything outside of those narrow connotations. In effect, we end up identifying with things that aren't even us. If you want to actually touch the real experience of who you truly Are, you have to start by recognizing what you are *not*. You have to become aware of all those false identities you've wrapped yourself in—the ones currently dictating how you think, how you act, and how you stay stuck in these endless loops of unconscious behavior.

Life is inherently dualistic. That’s not some mystical concept; it’s just how things work. Our senses and our minds act as this incredible mechanism that defines the very nature of life, all stemming from the evolution of consciousness itself. Once you actually become aware of this duality, everything shifts. It's like flipping a switch. Your consciousness starts operating on an entirely different level. That’s when you can finally start living the way we were actually designed to—by finding that perfect, subtle balance between the mental, the emotional, and the energetic aspects of being human.

Look, whether you’re someone currently walking this earth or even someone who’s passed on—provided they haven't broken free from that mental matrix and found themselves reincarnating again—everyone is caught up in this duality. It really just boils down to one thing: whether or not you actually realize you're part of it.

steelgardener22 said:So where's the line for "spiritual development"... or is it just a matter of higher vs. lower illusions? What level are you writing from here—are you speaking from a state of high spiritual realization (setting the scale for things), or are you operating from a lower illusion by exposing a higher one?

Basically, the world itself isn't illusory; rather, it's the impression of consciousness (caused by the laws of Maya, the Illusion that makes everything seem separate and real) that builds up through mental impressions.

The world has elements of illusion in its instability; everything is born, grows, ages, and dies... from people to mountains to entire galaxies. Old folks talk about some heavenly paradise that's eternal, where nothing is born or dies... I used to say that world was non-illusory. But honestly, even this world is recognized as an illusion by those who are enlightened... and as such, it stops being an "illusion" and just becomes something explainable. Everything is relative...

As long as consciousness identifies at levels like Catholic or Muslim, or as a member of a specific nation, race, profession, or as an artist or scientist, man or woman and acts accordingly—we're talking about being entangled in a dualistic, illusory existence of a "limited self" that doesn't actually exist.

Are you actually "entangled" in duality? Or as a guy, could you just throw on a sundress and walk down your street without a second thought because you aren't strictly "man" or "woman"—plus, a breezy summer dress is way more comfortable in this heat? Are you actually part of human reproduction, or would you rather this whole world just vanish... because why bother with birth and creating all these illusory relationships anyway?

"Virtue and vice" are, on the other hand, mostly phenomena of cultural and civilizational norms, taboos, prohibitions, and what is deemed desirable.

I don't care about "mostly."

Then there's the "golden shackles of goodness," where consciousness identifies with "good deeds". That’s also an illusion, and it’s even more restrictive than "badness"—because you can shake off the "bad" easily, but with the "good," consciousness clings to it for no reason, and you have to consciously work to free yourself from that kind of identification.

Isn't there a third option here besides what you're laying out? Say, some panhandler on a street corner in Chicago—cigarette hanging out of her mouth, baby in tow—begging for "food money." I hand over a twenty, she gets fed, and I feel like a good person. Then tomorrow, I change my mind, realize she’s just playing on people's emotions to scam them, and I don't give her a dime—now I feel good again. Is there actually a third way to look at this?

Virtue is nothing more than a moving target. It’s whatever the society you live in decides is "good." What one community in America calls a core strength, a culture halfway across the world might see as a total character flaw. That’s really the heart of the matter.

Every situation we face acts like a fork in the road. It either forces us to confront reality head-on, or it makes us tighten our grip on a lie just to get by. Honestly, the whole debate over "virtue versus vice" isn't even the main point here. It’s simpler than that. Even the most upright person you know wasn't born a saint—everyone starts out as someone who’s been tempted and knocked off course.

steelgardener22 said:So where's the line for "spiritual development"... or is it just a matter of higher vs. lower illusions? What level are you writing from here—are you speaking from a state of high spiritual realization (setting the scale for things), or are you operating from a lower illusion by exposing a higher one?

Basically, the world itself isn't illusory; rather, it's the impression of consciousness (caused by the laws of Maya, the Illusion that makes everything seem separate and real) that builds up through mental impressions.

The world has elements of illusion in its instability; everything is born, grows, ages, and dies... from people to mountains to entire galaxies. Old folks talk about some heavenly paradise that's eternal, where nothing is born or dies... I used to say that world was non-illusory. But honestly, even this world is recognized as an illusion by those who are enlightened... and as such, it stops being an "illusion" and just becomes something explainable. Everything is relative...

As long as consciousness identifies at levels like Catholic or Muslim, or as a member of a specific nation, race, profession, or as an artist or scientist, man or woman and acts accordingly—we're talking about being entangled in a dualistic, illusory existence of a "limited self" that doesn't actually exist.

Are you actually "entangled" in duality? Or as a guy, could you just throw on a sundress and walk down your street without a second thought because you aren't strictly "man" or "woman"—plus, a breezy summer dress is way more comfortable in this heat? Are you actually part of human reproduction, or would you rather this whole world just vanish... because why bother with birth and creating all these illusory relationships anyway?

"Virtue and vice" are, on the other hand, mostly phenomena of cultural and civilizational norms, taboos, prohibitions, and what is deemed desirable.

I don't care about "mostly."

Then there's the "golden shackles of goodness," where consciousness identifies with "good deeds". That’s also an illusion, and it’s even more restrictive than "badness"—because you can shake off the "bad" easily, but with the "good," consciousness clings to it for no reason, and you have to consciously work to free yourself from that kind of identification.

Isn't there a third option here besides what you're laying out? Say, some panhandler on a street corner in Chicago—cigarette hanging out of her mouth, baby in tow—begging for "food money." I hand over a twenty, she gets fed, and I feel like a good person. Then tomorrow, I change my mind, realize she’s just playing on people's emotions to scam them, and I don't give her a dime—now I feel good again. Is there actually a third way to look at this?

What I was getting at wasn't about whether someone feels good in the moment because they think they did the right thing. It’s about the fact that—regardless of how you felt while you were doing it—your actions create consequences that stick to your conscience. If you feel guilt, that should act as a compass, driving you toward actions that root out the "bad." But if that guilt just turns into a repetitive mental loop without you actually doing anything to stop the harmful behavior, then it becomes a trap. At that point, it isn't helpful; it's just a destructive cycle.

Look, when someone views themselves as a "good person" rather than a bad one, they end up trapping themselves. They start trying to prove their goodness by clinging to that identity, which just keeps them stuck in a narrow way of existing. You can only really break free from those self-imposed "good guy" shackles once you realize how limiting they actually are. Once you see that, it becomes much easier to read a situation for what it is and act exactly how the moment requires, without being tied down by a rigid moral script.

In reality, people aren't inherently good or bad—even though that’s how most of us view the world. It's simpler than that: people just have different life experiences. Everyone is essentially just chasing their own version of well-being based on whatever knowledge or impressions they happen to hold. Think about the difference between an average person and a career criminal in a state penitentiary. In principle, they both think in very similar ways; the difference is that the inmate lacks that internal boundary and reaches for what he wants using the only tools he knows how to use.

Having a tendency to judge others is like adding extra weight to your mind. It’s a massive roadblock to any kind of spiritual growth, just like gossiping or venting toxic emotions. All these habits create "repulsion"—this heavy emotional, mental, and physical friction that pushes things away.

There are so many layers to this topic that you can't explain it with a single rule or a one-size-fits-all example. Life and the human mind are far too complex to be viewed through a simple black-and-white lens. Nothing is purely "white" and nothing is purely "black," but trying to identify solely with the "gray area" is just as much of an illusion as clinging to the extremes.

The real question is: what is the quality of our lives? And when I say "life," I’m talking about our inner life—the physical, mental, emotional, and energetic core. I mean our ability to experience this world more deeply and exist as a continuous whole. I'm talking about achieving mental and emotional freedom from toxic feelings, negative thoughts, and stress, while opening ourselves up to those bursts of compassion, bliss, and pure vitality. I'm talking about energetic growth that elevates our physical, intellectual, and creative capacities, allowing us to radiate that energy outward. The goal is to live in a way that inspires the people around us and directly improves the quality of their inner lives, too. To me, that is far more significant than just "spiritual development."

Thomas Nelson25 said:Honestly? Pure paradise. 😁

Just checking out how human society actually functions... might be some flaws in there.

So, what even is a person?

And what's wrong with that? He's just being human.
So, what about the superman?

Look, being a decent person isn't exactly easy—it takes actually stopping to figure out the right answer. 😉

Are you kidding me?
Paradise is just a private playground for whoever can afford the cover charge—it's a total sham. 😁

Thomas Nelson25 said:Honestly? Pure paradise. 😁

Just checking out how human society actually functions... might be some flaws in there.

So, what even is a person?

And what's wrong with that? He's just being human.
So, what about the superman?

Look, being a decent person isn't exactly easy—it takes actually stopping to figure out the right answer. 😉

What kind of flaws?
Society is really just a collection of people hanging out together—what's wrong with simple social connection? 😁

Thomas Nelson25 said:Honestly? Pure paradise. 😁

Just checking out how human society actually functions... might be some flaws in there.

So, what even is a person?

And what's wrong with that? He's just being human.
So, what about the superman?

Look, being a decent person isn't exactly easy—it takes actually stopping to figure out the right answer. 😉

You're asking that now?
Do you mean besides being a representative of the human race?
Take a look in the mirror and you might just wonder... if you aren't some sort of infiltrator yourself? 🤣

Thomas Nelson25 said:Honestly? Pure paradise. 😁

Just checking out how human society actually functions... might be some flaws in there.

So, what even is a person?

And what's wrong with that? He's just being human.
So, what about the superman?

Look, being a decent person isn't exactly easy—it takes actually stopping to figure out the right answer. 😉

deklasirati and therefore irrelevant. 😁

Thomas Nelson25 said:Honestly? Pure paradise. 😁

Just checking out how human society actually functions... might be some flaws in there.

So, what even is a person?

And what's wrong with that? He's just being human.
So, what about the superman?

Look, being a decent person isn't exactly easy—it takes actually stopping to figure out the right answer. 😉

Don't tell me you view morality as some sort of ultimate peak... or something?
Morality isn't something you can simply opt out of—it's not like it's a goal you strive toward or a tool you use as an argument.😁

Sam Martinez9 said:If you look at the total wealth held by humanity today, there is actually enough to go around for everyone. The issue isn't scarcity; it's the distribution. We have a situation where the top 1% of people in America hold more than the bottom 90% combined.

The core of the problem lies elsewhere—it’s pure greed. It’s this compulsive need to hoard. I often think of it like a squirrel frantically stuffing hazelnuts into a hole for a winter it won't survive. The difference is that most people—and I don't just mean the ultra-wealthy, but a huge portion of the population—are sitting on piles of stuff they don't need and will never use. And when the end comes, they certainly can't take any of those gadgets or luxury cars with them.

Then, you factor in war. War doesn't create wealth; it systematically destroys it. It’s pure devastation. You don't get back the homes leveled by a missile strike. During wartime, everything else just grinds to a halt; nothing is being built, nothing is being improved... it's all just stagnation and loss.

So, we are looking at two fundamentally irrational human behaviors.

Yet, for some reason, most people don't see anything controversial about it.

People have been fighting over "fair" distribution since the dawn of time...
(I mean, look at the intro to *2001: A Space Odyssey*—if evolution is real, then all of this carries even more weight... those big questions without answers... if you want to say the world basically acts according to human nature, statistically speaking.)

Basically, in the animal kingdom, grabbing what you can is just how it works.

Human morality, which was largely shaped by religion, is a huge factor here. Humanists usually lean on reason or some kind of logic regarding non-violence—if I'm reading their version of humanity correctly—but that might be a letdown for folks clinging to the hope of a God who acts as judge... someone more powerful and clever, operating without ethical constraints, making it easier to navigate.

War burns through weapons and energy and whatnot, which means the big manufacturers end up winning... so, weirdly enough, there’s a profit motive behind it too, even if it looks totally absurd.

Larry Moore83 said:Are you kidding me?
Paradise is just a private playground for whoever can afford the cover charge—it's a total sham. 😁

What kind of flaws?
Society is really just a collection of people hanging out together—what's wrong with simple social connection? 😁

You're asking that now?
Do you mean besides being a representative of the human race?
Take a look in the mirror and you might just wonder... if you aren't some sort of infiltrator yourself? 🤣

deklasirati and therefore irrelevant. 😁

Don't tell me you view morality as some sort of ultimate peak... or something?
Morality isn't something you can simply opt out of—it's not like it's a goal you strive toward or a tool you use as an argument.😁

I still think ethics is a huge factor when we're talking about this.

Thomas Nelson25 said:People have been fighting over "fair" distribution since the dawn of time...
(I mean, look at the intro to *2001: A Space Odyssey*—if evolution is real, then all of this carries even more weight... those big questions without answers... if you want to say the world basically acts according to human nature, statistically speaking.)

Basically, in the animal kingdom, grabbing what you can is just how it works.

Human morality, which was largely shaped by religion, is a huge factor here. Humanists usually lean on reason or some kind of logic regarding non-violence—if I'm reading their version of humanity correctly—but that might be a letdown for folks clinging to the hope of a God who acts as judge... someone more powerful and clever, operating without ethical constraints, making it easier to navigate.

War burns through weapons and energy and whatnot, which means the big manufacturers end up winning... so, weirdly enough, there’s a profit motive behind it too, even if it looks totally absurd.

I misspoke earlier; I meant equitable, not uniform.

In the wild, theft isn't really a thing. Animals might fight over food when they're starving, but a small creature isn't going to go out of its way to rob someone else.

I wouldn't agree with the idea that human morality was programmed by religion.

Of course, certain people get incredibly rich from war. However, when you look at the big picture, war is a net loss for both the victors and the defeated.

Michael Gonzalez77 said:Illusion isn't some moral thing—it’s not "good" or "bad." It’s just a factual state of being. Think about it: life itself is an illusion because it only exists through the lens of the mind. Our consciousness relies entirely on the impressions fed to us. Without those impressions, there is no mind; without a mind, there is no life, no experience, and no sense of self. In that void, personal existence simply doesn't exist. It's all illusory.

The core issue with people is that they just collect a mountain of artificial impressions. They end up building this entire separate psychological universe inside themselves—a world within a world that isn't even real, much like trying to navigate a dream.

The whole spiritual path is essentially an illusion. It’s that specific moment when consciousness starts moving forward along the path, which is really just a form of advanced imagination. But here’s the distinction: while an average person is tangled up in mental impressions—viewing the world as a solid, undeniable reality—on the Spiritual Path, you begin to experience the unreality of life firsthand. It isn't just an intellectual concept; you actually feel it.

The material world is constantly shifting; it doesn't hold any real substance. Even those higher planes—the more advanced dimensions where different beings exist—are essentially illusions, just much more stable versions of our own reality. In those realms, things like psychological suffering don't even exist because they are far more energetically grounded. But above all of that, there is a dimension of pure spiritual energy. That realm shares absolutely nothing with the lives of living beings. There is no such thing as an eternal being; a "being" is just a temporary shape, much like how entire civilizations are merely fleeting patterns, whether they endure for a long time or a short one.

Asking this question feels like we're trivializing the whole issue when it comes to identification.

Everything we claim to be—whether it’s being a man or a woman, an American, an engineer, or a judge—is really just our consciousness latching onto things that don't actually exist. These identities are nothing more than psychological constructs, simple social conventions built from pieces of human imagination. We rely on our five senses to perceive them, but they lack any true substance. The problem is that we get so consumed by these labels that we surrender our entire existence to them. Because we define ourselves through these imaginary categories, we can't even see anything outside of those narrow connotations. In effect, we end up identifying with things that aren't even us. If you want to actually touch the real experience of who you truly Are, you have to start by recognizing what you are *not*. You have to become aware of all those false identities you've wrapped yourself in—the ones currently dictating how you think, how you act, and how you stay stuck in these endless loops of unconscious behavior.

Life is inherently dualistic. That’s not some mystical concept; it’s just how things work. Our senses and our minds act as this incredible mechanism that defines the very nature of life, all stemming from the evolution of consciousness itself. Once you actually become aware of this duality, everything shifts. It's like flipping a switch. Your consciousness starts operating on an entirely different level. That’s when you can finally start living the way we were actually designed to—by finding that perfect, subtle balance between the mental, the emotional, and the energetic aspects of being human.

Look, whether you’re someone currently walking this earth or even someone who’s passed on—provided they haven't broken free from that mental matrix and found themselves reincarnating again—everyone is caught up in this duality. It really just boils down to one thing: whether or not you actually realize you're part of it.

Virtue is nothing more than a moving target. It’s whatever the society you live in decides is "good." What one community in America calls a core strength, a culture halfway across the world might see as a total character flaw. That’s really the heart of the matter.

Every situation we face acts like a fork in the road. It either forces us to confront reality head-on, or it makes us tighten our grip on a lie just to get by. Honestly, the whole debate over "virtue versus vice" isn't even the main point here. It’s simpler than that. Even the most upright person you know wasn't born a saint—everyone starts out as someone who’s been tempted and knocked off course.

What I was getting at wasn't about whether someone feels good in the moment because they think they did the right thing. It’s about the fact that—regardless of how you felt while you were doing it—your actions create consequences that stick to your conscience. If you feel guilt, that should act as a compass, driving you toward actions that root out the "bad." But if that guilt just turns into a repetitive mental loop without you actually doing anything to stop the harmful behavior, then it becomes a trap. At that point, it isn't helpful; it's just a destructive cycle.

Look, when someone views themselves as a "good person" rather than a bad one, they end up trapping themselves. They start trying to prove their goodness by clinging to that identity, which just keeps them stuck in a narrow way of existing. You can only really break free from those self-imposed "good guy" shackles once you realize how limiting they actually are. Once you see that, it becomes much easier to read a situation for what it is and act exactly how the moment requires, without being tied down by a rigid moral script.

In reality, people aren't inherently good or bad—even though that’s how most of us view the world. It's simpler than that: people just have different life experiences. Everyone is essentially just chasing their own version of well-being based on whatever knowledge or impressions they happen to hold. Think about the difference between an average person and a career criminal in a state penitentiary. In principle, they both think in very similar ways; the difference is that the inmate lacks that internal boundary and reaches for what he wants using the only tools he knows how to use.

Having a tendency to judge others is like adding extra weight to your mind. It’s a massive roadblock to any kind of spiritual growth, just like gossiping or venting toxic emotions. All these habits create "repulsion"—this heavy emotional, mental, and physical friction that pushes things away.

There are so many layers to this topic that you can't explain it with a single rule or a one-size-fits-all example. Life and the human mind are far too complex to be viewed through a simple black-and-white lens. Nothing is purely "white" and nothing is purely "black," but trying to identify solely with the "gray area" is just as much of an illusion as clinging to the extremes.

The real question is: what is the quality of our lives? And when I say "life," I’m talking about our inner life—the physical, mental, emotional, and energetic core. I mean our ability to experience this world more deeply and exist as a continuous whole. I'm talking about achieving mental and emotional freedom from toxic feelings, negative thoughts, and stress, while opening ourselves up to those bursts of compassion, bliss, and pure vitality. I'm talking about energetic growth that elevates our physical, intellectual, and creative capacities, allowing us to radiate that energy outward. The goal is to live in a way that inspires the people around us and directly improves the quality of their inner lives, too. To me, that is far more significant than just "spiritual development."

Wait... you were talking about spiritual growth—soul progression and all that. But if illusion isn't even "good" or "bad," then there’s no such thing as moving forward or backward. What exactly is spiritual development then? Just a more precise way of relating to the illusion—where you might end up with a little more virtue, or a little more evil and shitty consequences.

The core issue with people? It’s just an accumulation of fake impressions—basically building this whole separate psychological bubble inside a world that isn't even real to begin with. It's all just one big dreamscape.

I’m fine with embracing illusions when they serve a purpose—but that doesn't mean the mind can't snap out of it and hit a state of pure reality whenever it wants.

The whole spiritual path thing? It’s an illusion. It’s basically just that moment when consciousness starts leveling up—a type of pure imagination. But here's the kicker: unlike the average person who's totally wrapped up in sensory impressions and thinks everything they see is "real," someone on this path starts to actually *feel* how unreal life really is. We're talking experiential, not just some intellectual theory.

The surface stuff is just an illusion—but the foundation? That's backed by God, the Law, and the Truth.

This question kind of trivializes the whole damn issue when you start talking about identification.

Man, you just love arguing at thirty thousand feet—where everything’s abstract and it’s easy to tear stuff down when nothing is actually real.

Everything people cling to—being a woman, a man, an American, an engineer, a judge, whatever—it’s all just their consciousness latching onto things that don't actually exist. These are nothing more than psychological constructs, simple social conventions. They're just fragments of human imagination built on what our five senses pick up. It's not "real." Since people are so obsessed with this stuff, they end up subordinating their entire existence to these made-up labels. They can't even perceive anything outside those connotations. Basically, they spend their lives identifying with things that aren't even there.

The Law runs through all this—some illusions are just bigger than others. Calling someone an American or a Mexican? That’s a massive illusion right there. An engineer or a judge? There’s way less illusion there because they actually have to answer to natural laws, ethics, and justice. But man and woman—that’s even further from being an illusion. They were built to be "one"—not some twisted version where people try to be gay. You can't just distance yourself from the gift of life and spiritual polarity like that.

To actually get close to the real experience of who a person Is, they have to become aware of everything they *aren't*—all that stuff they identify with that dictates their thinking, their behavior, and their actions, basically just keeping them stuck because they aren't conscious of it.

But look—men and women have to accept the temporary nature and the illusions of their physical bodies and reproduction. Because up on the Mountain... there is no such thing as reproduction in the real world. Down here, it’s just a mechanism to pull souls into these lesson-filled scenes... regardless of how they got dragged into it.

"Virtue" is just whatever someone decides counts as virtuous—it's defined by the society an individual lives in. That exact same "virtue" could be seen as a total flaw on the other side of the world, and that’s the whole point.

No... listen... just because one tribe somewhere doesn't see a problem with cannibalism while another tribe prizes the sanctity of life and organic food... that doesn't mean cannibalism is just as "virtuous" as vegetarianism.

Nah, when someone views themselves as "good" rather than "bad," they’re just doubling down on that identity to validate themselves, which keeps them trapped in that separate existence. Breaking free from the shackles of being "good" only happens once you realize how limiting it is. Only then can you actually recognize life situations for what they are and act according to what the moment actually requires.

Yeah... the mind has to be steady, but there's nothing wrong with me correctly judging that certain person didn't deserve my charity... quite the opposite... I have to be selective and act virtuously. I'm not about to throw money at some woman who's just going to spend it on cigarettes.

People aren't fundamentally good or bad, even if that's how everyone looks at it. People just have different life experiences, and everyone is just chasing their own well-being based on their ignorance and whatever impressions happen to be dominant.

I don't buy that... virtue has to have elements of Law. And when someone pursues their own well-being at any cost, if they have even a shred of virtue in them, they'll know they wouldn't want someone stealing their car the same way they steal others' just to get ahead.

The tendency to "judge" others just ties you more to the mind, and it definitely blocks spiritual progress.

When a villain judges others, they're just binding themselves further—but when a saint judges, they do it out of pure knowledge. It's like when Jesus told people not to judge, yet said of Himself, "If I do judge, My judgment is true."

There's way too much going on here to boil it down to one simple explanation or just look at one specific example. Life and the human mind are way more complex than some basic "black and white" checklist. Nothing is purely "white" and nothing is strictly "black"—but honestly? Trying to claim you're living in the "gray area" is just as much of an illusion as pretending things are black or white.

yeah

The real question is: what’s our actual quality of life? And when I say "life," I’m talking about the inner stuff—the physical, mental, emotional, and energetic side of things. It’s about having the capacity to experience this world on a deeper level and feeling like a continuous whole. It's about being mentally and emotionally free from toxic emotions, negative thoughts, and stress—all while experiencing those growing bursts of empathy, bliss, and pure vital joy. It’s also about that energy growth that boosts your physical, intellectual, and creative capacities, allowing you to radiate that out to people around you—to actually inspire them and directly improve their own internal lives. For me, that's what truly matters when it comes to spiritual growth.

Spot on. But if you actually want to live like that, you’ve gotta understand the Laws of Life, tap into Virtue, and be smart about who you share yourself with—don't go throwing pearls of joy and wisdom at swine...