Atheism vs. Spirituality: Zero Tolerance

Michael Gonzalez77 said:Fair point, but that sounds more like describing basic human processes. Those can happen regardless of whether someone is spiritually grounded or not. Both a deeply spiritual person and someone who hasn't developed that side of themselves can engage in those activities—but there's still a massive difference in how they approach them.

That’s a much narrower way of looking at and defining spirituality.

If we go by that logic, most people wouldn't be considered spiritual at all; instead, "spiritual" would only apply to the select few who have hit enlightenment or achieved a higher state through specific means, like meditation or disciplined practice.

Meanwhile, according to hollowpuma762, even animals possess spirituality. In that sense, his definition ends up being even broader than my own.

True, though even if we assume everyone possesses a spiritual core, there’s no reason to believe we’re all operating at the same level. It’s my belief that an individual should actively strive to cultivate their own spiritual depth.

How does one go about it? Through continuous learning, deep reflection, and genuine discovery...

Michael Gonzalez77 said:There’s a huge group of people calling themselves atheists who don't actually fit the mold. Their views lean toward higher intelligence rather than those rigid, mechanistic paradigms people usually associate with atheism.

Spirituality is right there within reach for everyone. It's the ultimate expression of one's own Ownership. It really just comes down to paying attention—learning to notice things that exist outside of mental conventions, beyond internal determinism, and past the trickery of our senses. Because of that, believing in some version of God or clinging to strict mechanistic laws doesn't actually make spiritual realization any easier or harder. To truly experience spirituality, all of that has to become irrelevant. You have to move past the standard intellectual setup and that thing everyone swears by called "reason," which, if you ask me, isn't much more than self-hypnosis and pure fantasy.

Look, there’s certainly a wide variety of people in this discussion. But if you think about it, religion, by its very definition, acts as a middleman between an individual and the spiritual—the soul, or whatever term you prefer to use for that higher connection. By inserting itself into that space, it actually makes direct contact harder to achieve, all while serving as a tool to manipulate the masses for purely material gains. I'm not saying there aren't some good people within these institutions, but fundamentally, I believe organized religion ends up being detrimental to the human spirit.

hollowpuma762 said:If we ignore the blatant attempt at a joke here—the one fixated on an obviously undefined concept and loaded with heavy-handed hints:

a) Holy books from various religions contain wisdom that can help develop a person's spiritual side.

b) The internet is crawling with nonsense, sure, but in that massive sea of data, it’s possible to find useful stuff if you actually have the sense to recognize it.

Look, if you want any kind of argument to even be worth considering, it has to start with a sound logical process.

This one doesn't.

Alright, give me a logical explanation for "ether" and I promise I'll stop messing with you. Cross my heart.

Joseph Bailey41 said:Alright, give me a logical explanation for "ether" and I promise I'll stop messing with you. Cross my heart.

1) Is there such a thing as a "non-logical explanation"? Because if not, your premise is already broken.

2) Honestly, the way you're talking makes it sound like you think trying to explain it would just be an exercise in futility.

3) Setting these weird conditions for how info is delivered? It doesn't help. It just makes everything harder.

4) You aren't making fun of me here. You're just making yourself look ridiculous.

Joseph Bailey41 said:Look, there’s certainly a wide variety of people in this discussion. But if you think about it, religion, by its very definition, acts as a middleman between an individual and the spiritual—the soul, or whatever term you prefer to use for that higher connection. By inserting itself into that space, it actually makes direct contact harder to achieve, all while serving as a tool to manipulate the masses for purely material gains. I'm not saying there aren't some good people within these institutions, but fundamentally, I believe organized religion ends up being detrimental to the human spirit.

I agree that organized religion feels like a cage, but we have to realize that the mechanistic dogma pushed by the materialistic scientific paradigm is just another version of the same thing.

Sam Martinez9 said:That’s a much narrower way of looking at and defining spirituality.

If we go by that logic, most people wouldn't be considered spiritual at all; instead, "spiritual" would only apply to the select few who have hit enlightenment or achieved a higher state through specific means, like meditation or disciplined practice.

Meanwhile, according to hollowpuma762, even animals possess spirituality. In that sense, his definition ends up being even broader than my own.

Every living thing is made up of matter and Spirit.

But look, that isn't some deep definition of spirituality, nor is it just "my" subjective little interpretation.

Here’s my own subjective take on the term:

"Spirituality" = a person's inherent capacity or ability to perceive the spiritual.

hollowpuma762 said:Every living thing is made up of matter and Spirit.

But look, that isn't some deep definition of spirituality, nor is it just "my" subjective little interpretation.

Here’s my own subjective take on the term:

"Spirituality" = a person's inherent capacity or ability to perceive the spiritual.

How would you even define "spiritual"? It’s one of those words that people throw around all the time, but as soon as you try to pin it down, it just slips through your fingers. To me, it isn't necessarily about being religious or following a specific set of doctrines. I think it's more about that internal connection to something larger than yourself—whether that’s nature, the universe, or just a deep sense of purpose. It’s that quiet feeling you get when you’re out hiking in the Rockies or staring up at a clear night sky in the desert, where everything suddenly feels interconnected and meaningful. It’s less about ritual and more about intention and awareness. It’s trying to live in a way that aligns with your core values, even when life gets messy. I’m still figuring out what my own definition looks like, honestly. I tend to overthink these things, which probably doesn't help. But I'd love to hear how you all see it. 😉

Actually, don't. You still owe me some Ether.

Sam Martinez9 said:True, though even if we assume everyone possesses a spiritual core, there’s no reason to believe we’re all operating at the same level. It’s my belief that an individual should actively strive to cultivate their own spiritual depth.

How does one go about it? Through continuous learning, deep reflection, and genuine discovery...

Think of it this way: everyone is spiritual by nature, but it’s mostly latent potential. When people live their lives without tapping into that, they become "anti-spiritual." They get stuck in rigid, regressive patterns of thinking that breed constant stress and negativity. This mindset basically erodes everything that makes us human. Most people barely scratch the surface of their true potential—it’s something seen only in a handful of remarkable individuals throughout history.

And let's be clear: formal schooling isn't the answer here. In fact, standard education often acts as a roadblock to spiritual growth. It programs people with limited perspectives, giving them the illusion that they’ve mastered life when they’ve really just been doing mental gymnastics—essentially just playing a high-stakes game of memory than actual learning.

There are endless ways to develop your spirit, but there's one non-negotiable rule: it has to align with the natural order of growth. You can't reach those peak human attributes—like genuine intelligence, creativity, mental and physical health, and intuition—without maintaining a pure inner essence. That essence is the engine behind real spiritual evolution.

Michael Gonzalez77 said:I agree that organized religion feels like a cage, but we have to realize that the mechanistic dogma pushed by the materialistic scientific paradigm is just another version of the same thing.

Being an atheist just means you don't believe in God. Adopting a rigid, mechanistic worldview? That's entirely optional.

Joseph Bailey41 said:Being an atheist just means you don't believe in God. Adopting a rigid, mechanistic worldview? That's entirely optional.

An atheist—specifically one acting as a materialist—is still essentially someone clinging to a belief system. Both sides fall into the trap of mental determinism; they’re just pulling from different wells. It's all legitimate, sure, but it's a step backward for anyone trying to develop true spiritual freedom. Real freedom shouldn't be tied to our physical or mental baggage, yet we treat these internal constructs as absolute reality simply because we pour so much energy into maintaining this illusory world of impressions. At the end of the day, you don't have to be an atheist or a theist to be trapped in a repetitive psychological loop. We get stuck in these mental habits and "life protocols" that drive a constant cycle of craving and avoidance—essentially a never-ending chase to swap pain for pleasure. Regardless of what someone believes or their specific theories, if their mind is conditioned into a circular loop that's already strained their nervous system, their ability to express their true spirit is going to be severely limited.

It took me a second to wrap my head around what you were getting at, but I think I’m on board. I still have my reservations about that part regarding spiritual origins, though. But honestly, it’s probably not worth getting hung up on whether it was the chicken or the egg. The bottom line is that it exists. 😍

Joseph Bailey41 said:It took me a second to wrap my head around what you were getting at, but I think I’m on board. I still have my reservations about that part regarding spiritual origins, though. But honestly, it’s probably not worth getting hung up on whether it was the chicken or the egg. The bottom line is that it exists. 😍

Think of energy—or spirit—as the bedrock of everything. Its attributes are consciousness and its various layers, like intelligence and potential. On a physical level, consciousness expresses itself through different evolutionary stages—moving from inanimate matter to living organisms through the act of creation, where impressions are gathered and experienced.

Essentially, matter is just a byproduct of creation, not the foundation of consciousness. It’s actually the other way around. The real issue we face as humans is that we tend to identify with things we aren't. We aren't our bodies—which are just collections of nutrients and elements—and we aren't our minds, which are basically just a temporary loop of sensory data and external influences circling around a fleeting life. The reality of the world is much more fundamental than that.

When someone truly experiences themselves as consciousness—the driver that the body and mind belong to, rather than being a slave to them—suffering starts to fade. Most suffering is tied to the mind, which then triggers physical issues by stressing out the nervous system. In some cases, the cause might be purely physical, like injury or pathogens, but the core remains.

At the end of the day, knowing what the true foundation is matters immensely. That understanding dictates how the human spirit develops—that core energy, or aura, which serves as the hub for our intelligence, creativity, health, and spirituality.

I get where you're coming from. But I have to disagree. For me, it started with the physical body, and then, well, the spirit followed. That doesn't make the latter any less significant, obviously. In fact, the spirit is the direct result of all those long, empty years of evolution, which is exactly why we should cherish it—just like we cherish this one single life we get. There you go: a little introduction to what I call atheist spirituality. 😉

Joseph Bailey41 said:I get where you're coming from. But I have to disagree. For me, it started with the physical body, and then, well, the spirit followed. That doesn't make the latter any less significant, obviously. In fact, the spirit is the direct result of all those long, empty years of evolution, which is exactly why we should cherish it—just like we cherish this one single life we get. There you go: a little introduction to what I call atheist spirituality. 😉

When you talk about being limited by our senses and getting too wrapped up in them, it makes perfect sense why that's how "atheists" view the world. But true clarity comes from deep self-exploration, not just blind belief.

I don't really get how exploring your own psyche can lead you to something that has nothing to do with who you are. To me, it feels a lot like psychological projection. But hey, if someone's delusions actually help them become a better person, who am I to argue?

Joseph Bailey41 said:I don't really get how exploring your own psyche can lead you to something that has nothing to do with who you are. To me, it feels a lot like psychological projection. But hey, if someone's delusions actually help them become a better person, who am I to argue?

That’s just how it looks to you because you’re clinging to an identity that isn't actually yours—instead of owning what belongs to you (your body and mind) and experiencing it in a way that is practical and possible.

If someone views themselves merely as a collection of things they’ve consumed—if they build their entire identity out of sensory impressions from the outside world and say, "that’s who I am"—then I don't see what kind of delusion we're even talking about. The trouble starts when those heavy identifications manifest as frustration and all the friction that comes with "normal life." No amount of willpower or faith is going to fix that. It’s like a driver who identifies so closely with his car that he feels like the vehicle is driving itself—usually by accident—and then, out of pure ignorance, blames everyone else for the "burden" of life.

There is this incredible intelligence at work that builds your physical body simply by you eating a banana. Instead of defining himself as a mere sequence of "banana-bread-cheese-milk," a person can choose to experience and utilize what they truly are (which definitely isn't a banana).

Michael Gonzalez77 said:An atheist—specifically one acting as a materialist—is still essentially someone clinging to a belief system. Both sides fall into the trap of mental determinism; they’re just pulling from different wells. It's all legitimate, sure, but it's a step backward for anyone trying to develop true spiritual freedom. Real freedom shouldn't be tied to our physical or mental baggage, yet we treat these internal constructs as absolute reality simply because we pour so much energy into maintaining this illusory world of impressions. At the end of the day, you don't have to be an atheist or a theist to be trapped in a repetitive psychological loop. We get stuck in these mental habits and "life protocols" that drive a constant cycle of craving and avoidance—essentially a never-ending chase to swap pain for pleasure. Regardless of what someone believes or their specific theories, if their mind is conditioned into a circular loop that's already strained their nervous system, their ability to express their true spirit is going to be severely limited.

Man, the way you spin things is wild. It honestly makes me wonder how people who are clearly smart can wade through such shallow streams of ignorance and hypocrisy.

You're an atheist and a materialist just like me, yet somehow you claim to have some "spiritual energy" that I lack because I'm being principled while you aren't. Because, in my book, either all miracles and spiritual experiences are real, or none of them are.

And you say we pull our determinism from different sources?? That's just not right.
You're pulling from both, whereas I stick to just one. See, you don't believe in Santa Claus, and you definitely don't think Zeus sent spiritual energy to Milan via tarot cards, but I bet you still believe in the Resurrection.

silentviper19 said:Man, the way you spin things is wild. It honestly makes me wonder how people who are clearly smart can wade through such shallow streams of ignorance and hypocrisy.

You're an atheist and a materialist just like me, yet somehow you claim to have some "spiritual energy" that I lack because I'm being principled while you aren't. Because, in my book, either all miracles and spiritual experiences are real, or none of them are.

And you say we pull our determinism from different sources?? That's just not right.
You're pulling from both, whereas I stick to just one. See, you don't believe in Santa Claus, and you definitely don't think Zeus sent spiritual energy to Milan via tarot cards, but I bet you still believe in the Resurrection.

🙂 "I am not" an atheist, a theist, or anything else you could possibly throw at me. Those kinds of labels and identities simply don't interest me.

On the flip side, your "atheism" is just a byproduct of the psychological cage you're living in—the very thing causing you daily internal conflict. That's what I'm talking about.

It doesn't matter how someone declares themselves. Identity is just the accumulation of what's inside a person and the weight they give to a self-constructed, false world of ideas. Once you start identifying with those ideas—even if you create a specific agenda through some ideology—you end up stuck in a stagnant life.

The whole idea of drawing "determinism" from different places is trivial because the core issue remains the same. Whether you call yourself an atheist or a theist, whether it's Jack or Mark—when you're dealing with an identity that contributes nothing to personal growth and can't even be understood without a genuine effort toward self-knowledge, it's a waste of energy. People cling to these things because they view any challenge to their label as a threat to their very being. Even if that isn't the intention, people need to set things straight. Unfortunately, most people's intellect just circles around what they "see" or what they've heard exists, even if they haven't actually experienced it. They try to perceive the world through the narrow lens of the intellect, but the intellect isn't the part of intelligence that truly perceives reality. It's just a tiny fraction of the total intelligence that most of humanity hasn't even touched yet. All of this is just noise.

Michael Gonzalez77 said:🙂 "I am not" an atheist, a theist, or anything else you could possibly throw at me. Those kinds of labels and identities simply don't interest me.

On the flip side, your "atheism" is just a byproduct of the psychological cage you're living in—the very thing causing you daily internal conflict. That's what I'm talking about.

It doesn't matter how someone declares themselves. Identity is just the accumulation of what's inside a person and the weight they give to a self-constructed, false world of ideas. Once you start identifying with those ideas—even if you create a specific agenda through some ideology—you end up stuck in a stagnant life.

The whole idea of drawing "determinism" from different places is trivial because the core issue remains the same. Whether you call yourself an atheist or a theist, whether it's Jack or Mark—when you're dealing with an identity that contributes nothing to personal growth and can't even be understood without a genuine effort toward self-knowledge, it's a waste of energy. People cling to these things because they view any challenge to their label as a threat to their very being. Even if that isn't the intention, people need to set things straight. Unfortunately, most people's intellect just circles around what they "see" or what they've heard exists, even if they haven't actually experienced it. They try to perceive the world through the narrow lens of the intellect, but the intellect isn't the part of intelligence that truly perceives reality. It's just a tiny fraction of the total intelligence that most of humanity hasn't even touched yet. All of this is just noise.

Man, you're acting like you're headed for Mount Everest or Tibet or something! What are you even looking for down here on Earth? Just staring at these empty fantasies sold by science, progress, and technology? It's all just colorful illusions, really. None of it helps with the one big thing you're constantly banging on about—this famous "self-knowledge." That term is always so vague because it's purely subjective, anyway. Not to mention there's zero scientific proof that this "self-knowledge" even exists, let alone that anyone should be spending their life chasing it.