steelmarlin19 said:Look, I’m not going to go point-by-point through everything you said—let's just keep it brief! First off—everyone is entitled to THEIR own opinion—and that goes for you, me, and every single person out there—so opinions don't have to match, and honestly, having a bunch of different perspectives on the SAME topic is actually better!
I never once said there are "special people" who are MORE valuable than everyone else, nor did I imply anyone is worth less because of any kind of deficiency—whether physical or otherwise—so we clearly had a bit of a misunderstanding there!
The whole point here is whether "chosen" people exist—meaning those gifted individuals with abilities far beyond the average person—and my stance is that I am absolutely convinced such people DO exist.
Your claim that God doesn't exist—which, by the way, is just your take (and you don't even know who my God actually is!)—is purely YOUR opinion without any actual proof, so it doesn't really carry much weight in a serious discussion.
And if you're insisting that "chosen" people DON'T exist, then what happened to legends like Buddha, Mozart, Einstein, Nikola Tesla, or Jesus Christ? They're gone, right?
I mean, does Jesus really have NO impact on this world? Seriously, what world are you living in? There are BILLIONS of people for whom He is the very MEANING of life, and His words are read every single day—not just in church, just so you know!
So, according to you, they weren't "chosen"—they just HAPPENED to possess qualities that none of us today have, and it just fell into their laps "from Mars" without any cause, just out of thin air. Truly "brilliant" logic there! Cheers! 🙂
I certainly didn't walk into this forum under the impression that I was going to come in here and bend the truth or reshape reality to suit my whims. I don't possess that kind of arrogance, nor, if I'm being perfectly honest, do I have any particular interest in playing such games.
I never actually suggested that there is such a thing as "special people" who possess more inherent value than the rest of us, nor did I ever imply that anyone should be viewed as less worthy because of any perceived shortcomings—be they physical or otherwise. It seems we’ve simply had a bit of a misunderstanding in how my words were interpreted.
You’ve certainly laid out a compelling argument there. If we follow your line of reasoning to its logical conclusion, an individual being "chosen" implies a conscious selection process—an intentional act carved out from among countless billions of life forms. Just try to wrap your head around the sheer magnitude of that decision; imagine the staggering complexity and the cosmic scale of the criteria required to make such a choice. Can one even begin to fathom a level of processing power or authority that vast? If we accept that something or someone has been selected, then it follows that the universe—or perhaps some conscious entity steering the ship—must possess a distinct preference. It suggests that at the very beginning, everything was placed within a specific metaphysical context or position. If geniuses are essentially gifted their brilliance by God, and if they are indeed "the chosen ones," then how exactly does that selection occur? What is the metric? Why wouldn't that same spark have been bestowed upon someone else instead? By your logic, if a person is truly chosen, they are stepping into a role akin to a messiah, tasked with steering the evolution of human society. And if that is the case, they would inherently hold a more significant, privileged station within the cosmos. But this leaves us with a profound question: among all the famous creators, inventors, and scientists we know, how could anyone possibly discern which ones were actually selected and which were simply lucky?
What should we make of those anonymous geniuses—those brilliant minds who simply never had the opportunity to step into the spotlight, or perhaps just couldn't fight the uphill battle to ensure their voices were actually heard? Because of that silence, we remain entirely unaware of them, and naturally, we don't go around labeling them as "special" or legendary. But if there truly exist individuals who have been hand-picked by God, yet they possess absolutely no influence over the trajectory of society, then one has to wonder: what exactly is their purpose? Since we are already drifting into the deep waters of discussing the concept of purpose itself, I find myself questioning why such greatness would exist without an audience.
Now, I don't mean to imply that there was any malice behind your reasoning—I truly believe you were just following a thread of thought—but if we were to strictly adhere to the logic you’re presenting, we run into a rather heavy philosophical dilemma. It suggests that every single human existence must possess an inherent purpose or a specific design, implying that people essentially "earn" the hand they are dealt in life. If we follow that path, one has to ask: what kind of merit could a child born with severe cognitive disabilities possibly have earned to justify such a struggle? Is that individual somehow responsible for their own condition, or is there a higher consciousness, perhaps even God, who holds the ultimate responsibility for how life is distributed? If we accept your premise, then we are forced to conclude that every instance of human suffering, along with every social injustice we witness, is ultimately the direct responsibility of a higher power from above.
There are certain individuals among us who possess truly extraordinary capabilities. Take, for instance, those on the autism spectrum—specifically those with Asperger's—who often demonstrate such remarkable cognitive prowess. Throughout history, we have seen many recorded as true geniuses, serving as a profound source of inspiration for much of humanity. One might wonder, how are such people "chosen"? Is there some higher design at play? In my view, the answer lies not in a preordained selection by some divine supervisor, but rather in a highly unique confluence of social and genetic factors. For a person to develop such a specific psychological profile, allowing them to dedicate themselves so intensely to their pursuits, there must be a precise foundation in place. It isn't something that simply falls from the sky; instead, it is the cumulative result of various circumstances, shaped by the interplay of natural and social forces, as well as the slow, steady hand of natural evolutionary selection.
Technically speaking, we stand at a threshold where we could potentially engineer a genius through genetic manipulation and eugenics. If that becomes our reality, it raises a rather profound question: can we still say a genius is someone chosen by God? It’s a heavy thought, isn't it? Imagine if we could essentially manufacture a figure like Nikola Tesla within the controlled environment of a laboratory, carefully selecting and stitching together specific genes to ensure they possess the exact cognitive traits and personality predispositions required for greatness. If we can bypass the slow, winding path of natural evolution to achieve such results, one has to wonder where the divine intention fits into the equation. Where does the hand of God reside when we start playing architect with the very blueprint of human brilliance?
Moving forward... look, I am certainly not suggesting that extraordinary or brilliant individuals don't exist. It is simply that I find myself at odds with your specific interpretation of what makes someone "special." Your entire perspective seems to hinge on the idea of purpose and intent. My contention, however, is that the cosmos and the natural world remain entirely indifferent to our frantic human attempts to manufacture meaning. The universe doesn't operate according to some pre-ordained master plan; rather, it functions through the fundamental laws of cause and effect—or, if you prefer the language of spiritualists, karma. This implies there is no need for a supernatural catalyst behind nature. Nature is perfectly sufficient unto itself; it is an ultra-complex, self-correcting, and self-regulating system that requires no external intervention to maintain its course.
How can you be so certain that this indifferent universe possesses any inherent meaning, purpose, or grand design specifically for humanity? What is a human being, truly, within this vast, unending expanse? I suspect you might be conflating a subjective sense of personal meaning—those individual reasons why one chooses to live—with a belief in an objective, absolute, and supernatural purpose.
This is how you see it:
View on imgurYour assertion that God does not exist—and frankly, since you don't even know who my God actually is, your claim is moot—is merely your own opinion. Since you lack any empirical evidence to support it, your viewpoint holds very little weight in a serious intellectual discussion.
I seem to recall you rambling about extraterrestrials elsewhere, for which you also possess zero proof, so... at the end of the day, we are simply never going to see eye to eye.
And since you insist that there are no "chosen" people, tell me: do we not have figures today like Buddha, Mozart, Einstein, Nikola Tesla, or Jesus Christ?
We certainly do. However, they aren't significant to the universe or to nature itself; they are significant only to human beings, who are perpetually searching for someone onto whom they can project their desires, needs, and comforts. Humans are, by their very nature, slaves to their impulses and social hierarchies. We are particularly prone to becoming subordinates to spiritual or religious authorities. Just because certain individuals stand out within human society does not mean they are indispensable or hold any greater importance within the natural order of things. In many cases, some of them were simply well-marketed. If it hadn't been for the aggressive evangelists and the religious fanatics tearing through the Roman Empire, no one would even know about Jesus. He would have remained a local story—something that, had newspapers existed back then, might have barely made it into two lines of some mediocre tabloid. Similarly, if corporations hadn't pushed and pressured Tesla to collaborate with businessmen and sociopaths, we wouldn't even recognize his name today. Everything ultimately depends on who you know, your social circle, how stubborn you are, and your ability to navigate the complexities of human society. But all of this happens through natural means—biological and social evolution—without any hint of magic involved.
Does Jesus Christ really have NO influence on this world? Just what kind of world are you living in? There are BILLIONS of people for whom He is the very meaning of life, and His words are read daily, not just in churches, if you must know.
Even Harry Potter has positively influenced millions of people. Should we build cathedrals and establish religions in his name too? Don't you see the absurdity in that logic? Furthermore, you are talking about a subjective sense of meaning—an individual's reason for existing. I am speaking about objective meaning. There is no objective meaning or purpose to life, nor is there any requirement for one to exist.
No, they weren't "chosen." It’s just a massive coincidence that they happened to possess exactly what none of us sitting here today have, and apparently, this just fell into their laps like some sort of cosmic accident without any underlying cause. Honestly, it's a rather "brilliant" bit of logic if you think about it. Best, 🙂
Of course it's a coincidence. You see, without the human mind to interpret things, there are no gods, no inherent meanings, and certainly no grand intentions. If you strip humanity out of the equation, it becomes quite clear that nature itself possesses neither a personality nor a consciousness; we are simply the ones projecting those qualities onto it. Even in our everyday American vernacular, we often say things like "nature intended it this way," as if the wilderness actually harbors a conscious will. In reality, that's just a linguistic shorthand—a convention of speech—that shouldn't be taken as a literal truth.
