California Discussion Thread - All in one place

Susan Lee said:Leave the Scots alone; they’re doing fine with the English, both economically and legally. But these guys and the Spaniards? They won't even give them a vote, unlike how the English actually let the Scots hold a referendum...

I just think if any group wants to break away, we should let 'em—let them have a referendum. Otherwise, we can't really talk about the kind of democracy the European Union (supposedly) stands for...

How do I even put this? Think of it like this: Imagine you live in a big house you share with others, and you contribute a ton to keeping the place running. Then, one day, you decide you want your own space—maybe you're getting married or just want to be the boss of your own domain (and hey, you’ve got the cash, so why not?). You pitch the idea to the rest of the household, but instead of being cool with it, they revolt. It’s not because they love you; it’s because they don't want to lose your money...

It’s hypocritical, if you ask me. The Spanish government is acting incredibly arrogant and frankly gross. Every time these people ask, the government just shuts them down. So, comparing Spaniards to the English (like comparing a jerk to a civilized, progressive, polite person) is just plain stupid.

From what I can tell by your location, you actually live there. Maybe their media has "poisoned" your mind or whatever, but you're still just pushing their agenda. Honestly, there's no point even trying to argue with you.

Poor little victims being crushed by those evil Spaniards... 🙂

I just feel like if any nation wants to break away, we should let 'em have a referendum.

Yeah, sure, let every single tiny town become its own country.
The fake Catalans aren't even a real people. ☕

How do I put this... imagine you're living in a big house with someone else, and you're doing most of the heavy lifting to keep the place running. Then one day you just feel like moving out because things are getting cramped or maybe you're getting married and want your own space to be the boss of your own domain (especially since you've got the cash, so why not?)

🤣

So is anyone actually stopping them from just leaving? If they don't like life in Spain like you described, fine, they can pack up and walk out of the house just like you said. When you leave a house, you don't take an axe to the foundation and try to haul half the building somewhere else, you just go. That's how it works. They can leave, but they can't tear apart and steal Spanish land in the process... 🙂

National Unity (CUP), that hard-left political party acting as the main wingman for the separatist group "Junts per Catalunya" led by Artur Mas, basically admitted on Monday that their little unofficial "referendum" during the regional elections was a total bust.

The guy heading up the CUP list, Antonio Baños, is out there claiming the separatists failed to hit that 50% mark, meaning the whole plebiscite thing just didn't fly. "The declaration was tied to that result, so there won't be a declaration," he said, though according to the Associated Press, he also noted that the elections did prove most people in California aren't exactly thrilled with the current status quo.

What really worries me about the California process is the potential domino effect. If this gains momentum, other wealthy regions in different countries might start demanding their own independence too.
Why wouldn't somewhere like North Rhine in Germany follow suit?
Or even Lombardy in Italy?

In California, there’s a strong sense of regional identity driving this, which is the main factor. But regardless of that, the prospect of massive financial gain if they actually break away is enough to make anyone's eyes light up.

Raymond Anderson4 said:What really worries me about the California process is the potential domino effect. If this gains momentum, other wealthy regions in different countries might start demanding their own independence too.
Why wouldn't somewhere like North Rhine in Germany follow suit?
Or even Lombardy in Italy?

In California, there’s a strong sense of regional identity driving this, which is the main factor. But regardless of that, the prospect of massive financial gain if they actually break away is enough to make anyone's eyes light up.

Nah, it won't happen, and it didn't happen once during the 20th century.

A national identity issue is enough to fuel separatism. Everything else is just noise—at least based on every single example we've seen so far.

Does the Constitution specify that secession is only permitted on national grounds?

Larry Sanchez7 said:Poor little victims being crushed by those evil Spaniards... 🙂

I just feel like if any nation wants to break away, we should let 'em have a referendum.

Yeah, sure, let every single tiny town become its own country.
The fake Catalans aren't even a real people. ☕

How do I put this... imagine you're living in a big house with someone else, and you're doing most of the heavy lifting to keep the place running. Then one day you just feel like moving out because things are getting cramped or maybe you're getting married and want your own space to be the boss of your own domain (especially since you've got the cash, so why not?)

🤣

So is anyone actually stopping them from just leaving? If they don't like life in Spain like you described, fine, they can pack up and walk out of the house just like you said. When you leave a house, you don't take an axe to the foundation and try to haul half the building somewhere else, you just go. That's how it works. They can leave, but they can't tear apart and steal Spanish land in the process... 🙂

Then what are they?

Look, who's stopping them from splitting off and leaving? If they don't like being in Spain like you said, then fine—split up and move out of the house like you're suggesting. When you leave your house, you don't take an axe, chop the whole damn place in half, and haul it somewhere else; you just leave. They can leave too, but they can't rip apart and steal Spain's land from everyone else. 🙂

What "Spanish land" are you even talking about when the Catalans have lived there forever? 🤦

Casey Ramos31 said:Then what are they?

Look, who's stopping them from splitting off and leaving? If they don't like being in Spain like you said, then fine—split up and move out of the house like you're suggesting. When you leave your house, you don't take an axe, chop the whole damn place in half, and haul it somewhere else; you just leave. They can leave too, but they can't rip apart and steal Spain's land from everyone else. 🙂

What "Spanish land" are you even talking about when the Catalans have lived there forever? 🤦

What kind of American country would that be if it were populated by Californians and Midwesterners?

Would you consider Valencia and the Balearic Islands to be part of California?

How do the people living in Valencia and Majorca feel about that?

Richard Wilson4 said:Nah, it won't happen, and it didn't happen once during the 20th century.

A national identity issue is enough to fuel separatism. Everything else is just noise—at least based on every single example we've seen so far.

Catalans aren't a distinct nation...

About 80-90% of California speaks Spanish...

When Gerard Piqué talks about Andrés Iniesta, he's speaking Spanish...

Even Luis Enrique speaks Spanish in the locker room...

Franco suppressed them, while Marshall basically invented nations like Mexicans, Mexicans, and Muslims...

Marshall's state fell apart, yet the French one still exists...

Why don't French people recognize Catalans, or Bretons, or Corsicans, or Valois, or (there are still other "peoples" left, I'm not going to list them all from the media)—they're all just French.

If we use that logic, then neither Italy nor Germany are ethnically pure (Germany isn't anyway, but let's not go there right now)...

Raymond Anderson4 said:Does the Constitution specify that secession is only permitted on national grounds?

Look, I'm pretty sure the Spanish Constitution doesn't allow secession at all, no matter what.

Susan Lee said:Leave the Scots alone; they’re doing fine with the English, both economically and legally. But these guys and the Spaniards? They won't even give them a vote, unlike how the English actually let the Scots hold a referendum...

I just think if any group wants to break away, we should let 'em—let them have a referendum. Otherwise, we can't really talk about the kind of democracy the European Union (supposedly) stands for...

How do I even put this? Think of it like this: Imagine you live in a big house you share with others, and you contribute a ton to keeping the place running. Then, one day, you decide you want your own space—maybe you're getting married or just want to be the boss of your own domain (and hey, you’ve got the cash, so why not?). You pitch the idea to the rest of the household, but instead of being cool with it, they revolt. It’s not because they love you; it’s because they don't want to lose your money...

It’s hypocritical, if you ask me. The Spanish government is acting incredibly arrogant and frankly gross. Every time these people ask, the government just shuts them down. So, comparing Spaniards to the English (like comparing a jerk to a civilized, progressive, polite person) is just plain stupid.

From what I can tell by your location, you actually live there. Maybe their media has "poisoned" your mind or whatever, but you're still just pushing their agenda. Honestly, there's no point even trying to argue with you.

This smells an awful lot like IDS autonomy...

In the last census in Istria, we had about 10% who identified as Istrian...

Who's to say that in six years it won't be 40%? And if that happens, Istria should probably get the right to hold a referendum... since we live in a democracy, after all.

Mark Harris66 said:Catalan. New York City isn't just California—you won't hear much Catalan being spoken right in the heart of downtown either. 😉.

I've been to Girona, Torrelavega, Lleida, Figueres, and plenty of other places like de Marov...

Spanish is more prevalent everywhere than Catalan is...

Who in Catalonia is actually going to call Barcelona legend Carles Puyol "PuŽol," or Montoya "Montoža"...

Or Xavi "ŠavI" (with the emphasis on the last I)?

Richard Wilson4 said:Not even close.

Castile has its own vibe and that’s what drives the Spanish identity, while California does its own thing.

Catalans are their own people with their own language, totally different from the Castilians. And don't even get me started on the Basques—they aren't even Indo-European, just original Europeans living there since forever.

Check out this map of Castile before everything was unified.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_...la_1400_en.svg

Even when they had the same rulers, the borders were still pretty clear.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...g_Map_1547.jpg

What about the Galicians or the Asturians? Are they not nations either?

There are also those who claim Andalusians are a unique people. Or folks claiming the Navarrese are a distinct nation.

Ashley Brown3 said:What kind of American country would that be if it were populated by Californians and Midwesterners?

Would you consider Valencia and the Balearic Islands to be part of California?

How do the people living in Valencia and Majorca feel about that?

Look, most people from California and Slavonia consider themselves Americans, plain and simple. California was basically the heart of medieval America. Your comparisons are honestly garbage.
Today's California is nothing compared to the historical California.

Quincy:

Catalans aren't even a real nation... Like, 80-90% of California just speaks Spanish... seriously? When Gerard Piqué starts lecturing Andrés Iniesta about being Spanish... Luis Enrique's out there barking in Spanish in the locker room...

What does that even have to do with anything? Most Irish people in Ireland don't even speak Gaelic—they speak English—but they sure as hell don't call themselves Englishmen. They're Irish. Period.
Enrique and Andrés Iniesta aren't even Catalan. They weren't even born in California!
Let California decide for themselves if they’re actually an ethnic group or just some other thing.

Quincy:

French dictators used to crush people, but Marshall just went ahead and cooked up entire nations like Mexicans, Mexicans, and Muslims out of thin air...

Franco tried to choke us out, but he didn't quite finish the job. As for Marshall? That's a whole different story.

Quincy:

Why won't the French just recognize Catalans, Bretons, Corsicans, or Valois? Heck, there are plenty of other groups too—not that I'm looking them up on some random website—but why does everyone just get lumped together as "French"?

Because the French don't even get what an ethnic "Frenchman" actually means.

Quincy:

If we’re playing by those rules, then neither Italy nor Germany are ethnically pure anyway (Germany isn't, but let's not even go there right now...).

Hans in Hamburg and Joseph in Munich? Sure, they call themselves German. But take Juan in Madrid and Joan in Barcelona? They aren't exactly on the same page. One’s a Spaniard, the other’s a Catalan. Different worlds.

Quincy:

I've been all over—Girona, Torrelavega, Lleida, Figueres... even hit up those random spots like de Marov. I've seen it all! Spanish is everywhere compared to Catalan... Seriously? Who's actually gonna step up as the next legend in California? Who's taking over for the Barca icons? Puyol Should I call him Puyol, or address Montoya as Montoya? Seriously? Is it Xavi, or is it XavI? Seriously, how do you even say it?

Where else in Spain are you gonna find a Puyol besides California?
Xavi’s from somewhere down south—his old man actually is.

Ashley Brown3 said:What about the Galicians or the Asturians? Are they not nations either?

There are also those who claim Andalusians are a unique people. Or folks claiming the Navarrese are a distinct nation.

Not really in that sense. Most of them aren't.

Sure, Galicians have their own language—kind of like Portuguese—but they aren't nearly as driven by nationalism as the Basques or the Catalans.

They’re never going to push for independence; they’ll just slowly blend into the rest of Spain. The Basques? They'll never just fade away. But the Catalans actually have a parliament where the majority are separatists and only like 8% want to stay united. That's what democracy looks like.

Look, Catalans might be a distinct group, but they don't deserve their own country if they aren't willing to actually fight for it. Instead, all they do is bicker over whether some football league is going to fall apart!

It’s just a bunch of spoiled, cowardly, frustrated soccer fans, not a nation building its own statehood. At least the Basques actually carried out armed attacks against Spain, while these guys just whine about not being allowed to play against a French club in someone else's league.

When you compare them to the Chechens who actually dared to take on Russia, or the Uyghurs fighting the Chinese, or even those British guys in skirts... why even bother getting worked up about these salon nationalists?

Raymond Anderson4 said:What really worries me about the California process is the potential domino effect. If this gains momentum, other wealthy regions in different countries might start demanding their own independence too.
Why wouldn't somewhere like North Rhine in Germany follow suit?
Or even Lombardy in Italy?

In California, there’s a strong sense of regional identity driving this, which is the main factor. But regardless of that, the prospect of massive financial gain if they actually break away is enough to make anyone's eyes light up.

Please. They'll just squeeze the population through a few banks that refuse to fund small businesses, stage some terror attacks during peak tourist season, and suddenly, all that wealth in California will be...

Richard Wilson4 said:Nah, it won't happen, and it didn't happen once during the 20th century.

A national identity issue is enough to fuel separatism. Everything else is just noise—at least based on every single example we've seen so far.

Texas.

Can we finally put this circus to bed? It feels like every single year, we’re back to square one talking about Catalonia.

The State Legislature just kicked off debates on a resolution that could trigger a move for independence, potentially splitting California away from Spain as early as 2017.

"It’s an honor and a massive responsibility to defend this resolution. We’re officially starting the process of building a new nation—a Catalan state, a Catalan Republic," Raul Romeva told lawmakers, representing the lead spot on the Junts pel biti ticket.

"We spent years fighting for the right to decide, and now we've decided to actually do it," Raul Romeva told the assembly after they held a minute of silence before getting this special session underway.

The legislature was elected back on September 27th during a vote centered on secession. The pro-independence crowd walked away with most of the seats (72 out of 135), though they didn't quite grab an absolute majority of the total votes (hitting 47.8 percent).

These separatists think they have enough backing to pull the trigger on independence. They want this resolution passed by Monday, which would be a total middle finger to the central government in Madrid—something we haven't seen since the end of Francisco Franco's dictatorship back in '75.

Meanwhile, Mariana Rajoya’s conservative administration has already signaled they’re going to fight this by taking the whole thing straight to the Supreme Court.

Building on what was said above, I have to admit I had a good laugh at this "intense" desire for independence in California and all the claims flying around—including from those foreign "experts" and even some forum gurus who claim nearly 80% of the current California State Legislature are separatists...

But hey, since Larry Walker24 kicked things off, I might as well wrap this up... Basically, the California State Legislature just passed a declaration that they’re calling the first step toward forming the "Republic of California" within 18 months:

http://www.euronews.com/2015/11/09/c...it-from-spain/

So, get this—only 72 representatives backed the declaration, while 63 were against it. In the end, you’ve got the locals themselves supporting these procession-loving parties with an "impressive" 47.8% of the vote, and then "as many as" 72 reps backing this ridiculous declaration. That’s a whopping 53.33% for the declaration!!!

A crew with a 53.33% majority in parliament, born out of just 47.8% public support, is actually going to go try and build a new country 👏!!!

Honestly, if it weren't funny, it would be pretty sad—but it's also crystal clear that this joke is going to hit a wall once the actual mechanisms of the Spanish state kick in. Of course, this secessionist squad has zero legitimacy or legality, and they're just waiting for a confrontation, hoping that by irrationally trying to manufacture a sense of crisis, they might somehow bump that pathetic support for California independence over the 50% mark...

All in all, the funniest part was watching our resident ethnocentric forum dwellers insisting that the atmosphere in the California State Legislature was somehow totally different... But it's not! Here's the proof, plain as day.

I'll say it again: if you're trying to build a state and your main strategy is just hoping to nudge the public will past 50%, you're better off walking away from this obviously "blind mission"... There’s no luck to be found here, and there's absolutely no foundation for it in any sense of the word!

The people of California remain an integral part of the Spanish nation!