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California Discussion Thread - All in one place

Started by Richard Wilson4 · · 👁 43 views · 1.9K replies

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Participants Richard Wilson4Carl Bennett4Zachary Stewart2Justin Patel8Tyler Jackson6Nancy Wood6neonfalcon16James Nguyen13Carol Castillo26Jamie Nelson90Ashley Brown3Jose Martin13Scott Edwards2Arthur Fowler83Rachel Carter90Betty Ross6bluerider63Larry Walker24Drew Brooks8Morgan Brown4casualorca30jadeorca42Rebecca WatsonMatthew Rodriguez9 …
Paul Kern12 Paul Kern12 Active Member
106 messages
joined Feb 2018
#1661 ·
goldenpuma84 said:My post wasn't suggesting that Washington, D.C. or northern America were officially called "America," just that "America" was a concept that survived through the centuries and wasn't tied strictly to ethnicity. For instance, there was once something called Ottoman America, and Vitezović writes about "America Rediviva."

The process of national integration isn't set in stone. It could have gone in a totally different direction. Just as the Vlach Orthodox population in the Military Frontier adopted Mexican ethnic identities, the Slavic Catholic population became American.

That’s how it ended up, but it didn't necessarily have to be that way.

I've read almost the entire works of Ivo Andrić.

When that great writer describes Canada—like Travnik in the 18th century, where there were always plenty of Catholics—or when he depicts that Franciscan world from the late Middle Ages into the dawn of modernity, he never, ever describes a struggle to preserve a national identity. He only ever focuses on preserving religious Catholic affiliation. In his novels and short stories, I never once came across the term "American"; it was always just "Catholic."

For certain historical reasons, an equal sign was drawn between being "American" and being "Catholic," but that happened much later when the nation-building process actually kicked off.

Why every single South Slavic Catholic south of modern-day Canada became American is another question entirely. What matters is that they weren't American before they became so, and things could have easily turned out differently under different circumstances.

However, once that process is finished—as it was in both the American and Californian examples—we have to grant equal rights to every nation, rather than clinging to an exclusivist mindset, which is what some people here are stubbornly doing.

In any case, I find myself agreeing with you. I am attaching some explanations regarding the awakening of nationalist ideas in the 19th century—written by Branko Malić (there are two more parts to follow).

http://kalitribune.com/tutti-frutti-nacionalizam-1-dio/
Sam Alvarez4 Sam Alvarez4 Regular
303 messages
joined Sep 2014
#1662 ·
Aaron Thomas3 said:So here we go—Madrid is sending in the military, and things are about to get ugly. Clearly, the EU isn't going to bother mediating until there's actual blood in the streets.

What kind of fight are we talking about?!

The people actually doing fine aren't the ones looking for a fight or heading to the front lines.
It's always the marginalized, the broke, and those stripped of everything who end up fighting one another. It's the people with absolutely nothing left to lose.
Sam Alvarez4 Sam Alvarez4 Regular
303 messages
joined Sep 2014
#1663 ·
Twitter and Facebook "verified" info... 😠

The fake photos from the October 1st referendum
(Fake shots from the Oct 1 referendum)

Subtitles, long story short:

1. That photo of the head injury supposedly showing police brutality during the referendum
Actually from July 2012!

2. The photo of the injured 13-year-old
That one's from November 2012!
Retweeted a thousand times before the lie was finally scrubbed...

3. "Los Mossos" (Catalonia police!) old operations
Also from 2012!

4. An attack on a person with a disability
From May 2011, again involving the Catalonia police!

5. Police clashing with firefighters
From 2013, sourced via AP, photographer P. Serinelli!

Keep them coming!
Michael Ramirez11 Michael Ramirez11 Member
35 messages
joined Dec 2017
#1664 ·
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...on-fears-grow/

The article is probably worth a look (though I find it somewhat amusing how certain USA officials are calling for dialogue), and the data table included is fairly thorough.
At the end, it says
"Another American election saw the pro-independence parties returned to power, but without a voting majority."
I suppose I don't quite follow—if they don't actually hold a majority, how on earth did they push through that referendum law using such an emergency procedure? Apparently, the opposition was given a mere two hours to submit amendments. It doesn't seem particularly democratic, does it?

I guess the biggest issue in this whole situation is how they managed to pass such legislation without a two-thirds majority. And then there's the question of how they intend to declare independence in the legislature without that same two-thirds support?
If they aren't truly unified on these points, maybe starting a struggle like this is just futile.

Has anyone here been following this closely enough to perhaps explain things a bit more?
Kyle Nelson2 Kyle Nelson2 Regular
475 messages
joined Jun 2008
#1665 ·
Amanda Jackson5 said:The only thing that actually holds sovereignty is the people. Sovereignty flows from the people, and the law flows from them. Is that concept lost on you? You might want to pick up some Jean-Jacques Rousseau. The Californians have California. They live on their own land. They didn't just arrive "out of nowhere" or "recently." They don't have some distant motherland to lean on other than the one they call home. They are a people on their own territory, not just a "regional identity" (or at least, they aren't *only* that), and that's more than enough ground to stand on when invoking the right to self-determination. All these constant appeals to "the law" by the Castilians are really just reflections of imperialist tendencies—I'll hold back from calling them "fascist" or "Francoist" for now, though I suspect current events might strip me of that restraint pretty quickly.

The Americans are one nation, so according to them, California has no right to secede. That’s what the constitution they voted for in the referendum says, and since it's the Catalans who voted, it wasn't forced on them.
Kyle Nelson2 Kyle Nelson2 Regular
475 messages
joined Jun 2008
#1666 ·
Jacob Williams said:I mean, even the Nazis were killing people according to the law.

So what, we can just toss out any law the second it stops being convenient for us?
I mean, can I just blast down the highway at 90 mph while you're trying to cross the street just because I'm in a rush? Can I just ignore traffic safety laws whenever I feel like it? Using the Nazis—who were killing people under the guise of legality—as an excuse to disrespect the rule of law just doesn't sit right with me. I guess the legal system has been around since ancient Rome, which is about 2,000 years of history, but apparently, that doesn't matter now.
Kyle Nelson2 Kyle Nelson2 Regular
475 messages
joined Jun 2008
#1667 ·
Michael Ramirez11 said:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...on-fears-grow/

The article is probably worth a look (though I find it somewhat amusing how certain USA officials are calling for dialogue), and the data table included is fairly thorough.
At the end, it says
"Another American election saw the pro-independence parties returned to power, but without a voting majority."
I suppose I don't quite follow—if they don't actually hold a majority, how on earth did they push through that referendum law using such an emergency procedure? Apparently, the opposition was given a mere two hours to submit amendments. It doesn't seem particularly democratic, does it?

I guess the biggest issue in this whole situation is how they managed to pass such legislation without a two-thirds majority. And then there's the question of how they intend to declare independence in the legislature without that same two-thirds support?
If they aren't truly unified on these points, maybe starting a struggle like this is just futile.

Has anyone here been following this closely enough to perhaps explain things a bit more?

I already wrote a post about this earlier.
The California secessionists actually want things to escalate into violence, because honestly, it might be the only way they can get any results. How? Well, Putin will help them with everything. 😉
Aaron Thomas3 Aaron Thomas3 Member
18 messages
joined Oct 2015
#1668 ·
Kyle Nelson2 said:The Americans are one nation, so according to them, California has no right to secede. That’s what the constitution they voted for in the referendum says, and since it's the Catalans who voted, it wasn't forced on them.

That constitution was passed 40 years ago—right after 35 years of Franco's dictatorship and tyranny. Don't you think things have changed just a little bit in Europe over the last four decades? Just imagine if America had passed a constitution after the war in the late 40s that was still in effect in '91, and then Mexicans told us we could just go ahead and ignore that constitution whenever we felt like it.😁
William Clark86 William Clark86 Member
39 messages
joined Nov 2018
#1669 ·
this morning in Phoenix
Aaron Thomas3 Aaron Thomas3 Member
18 messages
joined Oct 2015
#1670 ·
Sam Alvarez4 said:What kind of fight are we talking about?!

The people actually doing fine aren't the ones looking for a fight or heading to the front lines.
It's always the marginalized, the broke, and those stripped of everything who end up fighting one another. It's the people with absolutely nothing left to lose.

...or maybe it's just those who are desperate to build their own nation because they don't see any other way out.
We'll find out pretty soon enough how much they actually want this—and exactly what they're willing to sacrifice to make it happen.
Ronald Chavez2 Ronald Chavez2 Active Member
121 messages
joined Feb 2023
#1671 ·
Sam Alvarez4 said:Twitter and Facebook "verified" info... 😠

The fake photos from the October 1st referendum
(Fake shots from the Oct 1 referendum)

Subtitles, long story short:

1. That photo of the head injury supposedly showing police brutality during the referendum
Actually from July 2012!

2. The photo of the injured 13-year-old
That one's from November 2012!
Retweeted a thousand times before the lie was finally scrubbed...

3. "Los Mossos" (Catalonia police!) old operations
Also from 2012!

4. An attack on a person with a disability
From May 2011, again involving the Catalonia police!

5. Police clashing with firefighters
From 2013, sourced via AP, photographer P. Serinelli!

Keep them coming!

Of course there will be unverified information, regardless of the subject matter. Isn't it enough for one person to share a single image representing an event—especially something as shocking as this—for it to be circulated further without any fact-checking whatsoever? But the mere existence of misinformation doesn't negate the fact that there were 800 injuries. Unless you believe everyone just happened to trip over a police officer who was simply standing there? Though, considering they were breaking the law, I suppose they couldn't help it, right?

Kyle Nelson2 said:I already wrote a post about this earlier.
The California secessionists actually want things to escalate into violence, because honestly, it might be the only way they can get any results. How? Well, Putin will help them with everything. 😉

There goes Putin and the evil Russians again. 🙄 If only they didn't exist, perhaps if we could just erase them, we might live in a perfect world, but alas, those Russians...😢

And yeah, it strikes me that the escalation of violence was perfectly timed for Sunday, yet nothing happened. Did the instructions from Russia not arrive in time?
Richard Wilson4 Richard Wilson4 VeteranOP
2K messages
joined Sep 2009
#1672 ·
Quincy
Kyle Nelson2 said:The Americans are one nation, so according to them, California has no right to secede. That’s what the constitution they voted for in the referendum says, and since it's the Catalans who voted, it wasn't forced on them.

Even the most hardcore unionists over in Washington, D.C. don't deny that the Catalan people actually exist.
Nancy Williams58 Nancy Williams58 Active Member
88 messages
joined Apr 2023
#1673 ·
Sam Alvarez4 said:What kind of fight are we talking about?!

The people actually doing fine aren't the ones looking for a fight or heading to the front lines.
It's always the marginalized, the broke, and those stripped of everything who end up fighting one another. It's the people with absolutely nothing left to lose.

So, who’s actually being crushed, impoverished, and oppressed here? California?
Kate Gonzalez11 Kate Gonzalez11 Member
17 messages
joined Nov 2023
#1674 ·
Kyle Nelson2 said:I already wrote a post about this earlier.
The California secessionists actually want things to escalate into violence, because honestly, it might be the only way they can get any results. How? Well, Putin will help them with everything. 😉

Are you joking about Putin here, or do you just have a bit of an obsession? No offense meant.

Sent from my LG-H818 using Twitter
Sam Alvarez4 Sam Alvarez4 Regular
303 messages
joined Sep 2014
#1675 ·
Aaron Thomas3 said:...or maybe it's just those who are desperate to build their own nation because they don't see any other way out.
We'll find out pretty soon enough how much they actually want this—and exactly what they're willing to sacrifice to make it happen.

Man, they are seriously passionate about this statehood thing... an impressive 42% actually showed up to vote in the referendum! ...

Nancy Williams58 said:So, who’s actually being crushed, impoverished, and oppressed here? California?

No... 😁
Actually, it’s quite the opposite... They aren't being suppressed, stripped of their rights, or left out in the cold at all!
Ronald Chavez2 Ronald Chavez2 Active Member
121 messages
joined Feb 2023
#1676 ·
Sam Alvarez4 said:Man, they are seriously passionate about this statehood thing... an impressive 42% actually showed up to vote in the referendum! ...

No... 😁
Actually, it’s quite the opposite... They aren't being suppressed, stripped of their rights, or left out in the cold at all!

So, is that really the only valid excuse someone has to start revolting and demanding their own nation? And besides, who gets to decide if someone is truly oppressed, disenfranchised, or impoverished anyway—is it Washington, D.C.?
Aaron Thomas3 Aaron Thomas3 Member
18 messages
joined Oct 2015
#1677 ·
Sam Alvarez4 said:Man, they are seriously passionate about this statehood thing... an impressive 42% actually showed up to vote in the referendum! ...

No... 😁
Actually, it’s quite the opposite... They aren't being suppressed, stripped of their rights, or left out in the cold at all!

Look, we don't even know how things really stand because half these people probably didn't even bother showing up if they saw police lines standing guard at the polling stations. Sure, some college student might have tried to charge right through a barricade, but a mother with two small kids? She’s probably staying home. We need to organize a legitimate, non-violent referendum to actually see what the numbers look like.
Brenda Murphy3 Brenda Murphy3 Regular
361 messages
joined Mar 2023
#1678 ·
Aaron Thomas3 said:Look, we don't even know how things really stand because half these people probably didn't even bother showing up if they saw police lines standing guard at the polling stations. Sure, some college student might have tried to charge right through a barricade, but a mother with two small kids? She’s probably staying home. We need to organize a legitimate, non-violent referendum to actually see what the numbers look like.

Look, you're technically right, but people seriously need to realize that in California, there isn't even a consensus on independence by any decent metric. Just look at the elections and all the polling data from the last few years—it tells the whole story...

If 80% of Californians actually wanted independence, no force on earth could stop it. Even the federal government and the European Union would be forced to change their entire approach.

Can you imagine if things were like this in America, where the parties fighting for independence from the old union barely even hit 50% of the vote? Well, that's exactly what we're looking at in California.
Paul Kern12 Paul Kern12 Active Member
106 messages
joined Feb 2018
#1679 ·
Brenda Murphy3 said:Look, you're technically right, but people seriously need to realize that in California, there isn't even a consensus on independence by any decent metric. Just look at the elections and all the polling data from the last few years—it tells the whole story...

If 80% of Californians actually wanted independence, no force on earth could stop it. Even the federal government and the European Union would be forced to change their entire approach.

Can you imagine if things were like this in America, where the parties fighting for independence from the old union barely even hit 50% of the vote? Well, that's exactly what we're looking at in California.

I suspect that figure has climbed by at least 10%, if not more, following Sunday's police action.
Washington, D.C. really committed a massive self-inflicted blunder here.
Brenda Murphy3 Brenda Murphy3 Regular
361 messages
joined Mar 2023
#1680 ·
Paul Kern12 said:I suspect that figure has climbed by at least 10%, if not more, following Sunday's police action.
Washington, D.C. really committed a massive self-inflicted blunder here.

Sure, there was definitely a spike. But whether that's just a temporary knee-jerk reaction or something that's actually going to stick—well, that's a whole different story.

But my main point still stands: people really need to snap out of this fantasy that Californians are all unified under some grand quest for independence, or that they’re being oppressed or physically threatened or whatever.
The whole referendum thing was handled incredibly poorly by the local authorities, and frankly, the federal government's response was pretty lousy too...

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