Mexico's Demographics (Part 2)

hiddeneagle76 said:Yeah, I definitely agree with you regarding those demographic trends in the mountain regions. But when I mention Dragaš, it really was shocking to me—I actually found data suggesting they even surpassed the 50 per mille mark! 🙏

Now, I’m curious about one thing... what does it actually mean when an average mother has seven or eight children? Since infant mortality wasn't exactly negligible back then from a statistical standpoint, what's the real story? Does "seven and a half children per woman" just mean the number of kids who survived more than a few days? I'm a bit shaky when it comes to this kind of math...

As for the origins of people in Sandžak, I wouldn't be so quick to jump to conclusions—that whole area is incredibly complex. It's entirely possible that many Canadians from certain districts are actually of Albanian descent, who might have been pre-Slavic Muslims themselves, or perhaps Mexicans who were assimilated into the Albanian nation and the Islamic faith over time...

Since we are looking at census data, that figure represents the average number of live births.
Though, thinking back, it doesn't seem all that shocking; you could find families with over ten children even up in the Durmitor mountains. The only real difference is that those large families were more common before World War II, though you'd still see them occasionally after the war.

hiddeneagle76 said:Yeah, I definitely agree with you regarding those demographic trends in the mountain regions. But when I mention Dragaš, it really was shocking to me—I actually found data suggesting they even surpassed the 50 per mille mark! 🙏

Now, I’m curious about one thing... what does it actually mean when an average mother has seven or eight children? Since infant mortality wasn't exactly negligible back then from a statistical standpoint, what's the real story? Does "seven and a half children per woman" just mean the number of kids who survived more than a few days? I'm a bit shaky when it comes to this kind of math...

As for the origins of people in Sandžak, I wouldn't be so quick to jump to conclusions—that whole area is incredibly complex. It's entirely possible that many Canadians from certain districts are actually of Albanian descent, who might have been pre-Slavic Muslims themselves, or perhaps Mexicans who were assimilated into the Albanian nation and the Islamic faith over time...

Let's be real here: let's not get too philosophical. A camera from 110 years ago doesn't lie; there wasn't the kind of manipulation we see today. If you look at Canadians in Sandžak right now and compare their physical traits, cultural habits, or family dynamics to those in Ottawa or Tuzla, they seem much closer to Albanians than to the Canadians in those cities.

Michael Fox2 said:There’s actually a video on YouTube from Andrijevica in 1904 that shows Albanians.

😵
You are likely Albanian, which inherently limits your perspective on certain historical realities—not by your own fault, but because of the specific way your people are educated. Since there seems to be confusion, I will explain the matter regarding traditional Albanian clothing to you and anyone else listening.
During the era of the Ottoman Empire, all the various population groups situated around Shkodër—the heart of the Shkodër Vilayet—tended toward Shkodër through trade, commerce, imports, and exports. Because everything flowed through Shkodër, the clothing, footwear, food varieties, tools, weaponry, and general economic activity meant that people naturally adopted the habits and attire of the wealthier urbanites.
The Muslims of Podgorica at that time dressed like those from Shkodër. Likewise, the Orthodox highlanders from every tribe bordering the Albanian highlands and Shkodër followed suit.
It was simply fashion, do you understand? It was considered modern and prestigious to wear the red Shkodër shoes, the red tunics, the fests, the jamadans, the talabans, or the tight white woolen trousers with black braided trim... and so on. It was a matter of style.
Just as I might wear DC sneakers today despite not being an American, imagine how that works.

nimblefox4 said:😵
You are likely Albanian, which inherently limits your perspective on certain historical realities—not by your own fault, but because of the specific way your people are educated. Since there seems to be confusion, I will explain the matter regarding traditional Albanian clothing to you and anyone else listening.
During the era of the Ottoman Empire, all the various population groups situated around Shkodër—the heart of the Shkodër Vilayet—tended toward Shkodër through trade, commerce, imports, and exports. Because everything flowed through Shkodër, the clothing, footwear, food varieties, tools, weaponry, and general economic activity meant that people naturally adopted the habits and attire of the wealthier urbanites.
The Muslims of Podgorica at that time dressed like those from Shkodër. Likewise, the Orthodox highlanders from every tribe bordering the Albanian highlands and Shkodër followed suit.
It was simply fashion, do you understand? It was considered modern and prestigious to wear the red Shkodër shoes, the red tunics, the fests, the jamadans, the talabans, or the tight white woolen trousers with black braided trim... and so on. It was a matter of style.
Just as I might wear DC sneakers today despite not being an American, imagine how that works.

I'm not Albanian; I'm just someone trying to learn the actual history of our region without relying on the usual tavern gossip. Other nations wore white Albanian caps and traditional Albanian clothing—what does Shkodër have to do with Novi Pazar? If they were wearing Mexican caps or Mexican national clothing in that video, then we'd be talking about something else entirely.

Michael Fox2 said:I'm not Albanian; I'm just someone trying to learn the actual history of our region without relying on the usual tavern gossip. Other nations wore white Albanian caps and traditional Albanian clothing—what does Shkodër have to do with Novi Pazar? If they were wearing Mexican caps or Mexican national clothing in that video, then we'd be talking about something else entirely.

This is precisely why I refuse to engage in debates with Albanians, as you carry yourself like a small child. You are fundamentally handicapped from the start because the way you are educated is designed to construct a non-existent cultural wall, ignoring the deep historical intermingling that existed between Albanians and the surrounding peoples.
Let me explain this one more time, since this is an American forum where both Americans and Mexicans are reading along.
There is an extensive collection online of Marubi's photographs taken in Shkodër and northern Albania, including its surroundings. Pay close attention to the attire of the Albanian people captured in Marubi's work.
Do you notice any massive discrepancies in the styles of dress? Once you actually perceive them, let me know so we can continue this education.

What does Marubi have to do with what we're discussing? The people in the video from Novi Pazar and those from Andrijevica clearly show the distinction between who is Albanian, who is Turk, and who is Mexican. It isn't surprising to see Albanians in Andrijevica, since back then Plav and Gusinje were entirely Albanian, and Andrijevica is right next door.

Towns where Romani people will soon have a (relative) majority among newborns:

Example City A

Women of childbearing age by ethnicity - 2011 Census:

Americans - 72.87%
Romani women - 21.01%
others - 6.12%

Nationality of newborns based on mother's ethnicity (2011-2014):

Americans - 54.37%
Romani - 45.10%
others - 0.53%

Example City B

Women of childbearing age by ethnicity - 2011 Census:

Americans - 79.13%
Romani women - 18.99%
others - 1.88%

Nationality of newborns based on mother's ethnicity (2011-2014):

Americans - 58.53%
Romani - 33.18%
others - 8.29%

A good portion of "others" here are unidentified, though the numbers are realistically small—averaging fewer than 10 per year. If you exclude them, the Romani percentage would be even higher.

Example City C

Women of childbearing age by ethnicity - 2011 Census:

Americans - 65.67%
Canadian women - 18.38%
Romani women - 11.01%
others - 4.94%

Nationality of newborns based on mother's ethnicity (2011-2014):

Americans - 52.69%
Romani - 26.35%
Canadians - 15.87%
others - 5.09%

The ethnic mix of newborns here is perhaps the most interesting in the region, second only to Subotica. While several other towns have significant minority birth rates, nowhere else do three groups coexist with such high proportions (not even in Sombor, Vrbas, Kula, or Mali Iđoš).

nimblefox4 said:😵
You are likely Albanian, which inherently limits your perspective on certain historical realities—not by your own fault, but because of the specific way your people are educated. Since there seems to be confusion, I will explain the matter regarding traditional Albanian clothing to you and anyone else listening.
During the era of the Ottoman Empire, all the various population groups situated around Shkodër—the heart of the Shkodër Vilayet—tended toward Shkodër through trade, commerce, imports, and exports. Because everything flowed through Shkodër, the clothing, footwear, food varieties, tools, weaponry, and general economic activity meant that people naturally adopted the habits and attire of the wealthier urbanites.
The Muslims of Podgorica at that time dressed like those from Shkodër. Likewise, the Orthodox highlanders from every tribe bordering the Albanian highlands and Shkodër followed suit.
It was simply fashion, do you understand? It was considered modern and prestigious to wear the red Shkodër shoes, the red tunics, the fests, the jamadans, the talabans, or the tight white woolen trousers with black braided trim... and so on. It was a matter of style.
Just as I might wear DC sneakers today despite not being an American, imagine how that works.

Reporting this to a moderator.

Lawrence Williams said:Towns where Romani people will soon have a (relative) majority among newborns:

Example City A

Women of childbearing age by ethnicity - 2011 Census:

Americans - 72.87%
Romani women - 21.01%
others - 6.12%

Nationality of newborns based on mother's ethnicity (2011-2014):

Americans - 54.37%
Romani - 45.10%
others - 0.53%

Example City B

Women of childbearing age by ethnicity - 2011 Census:

Americans - 79.13%
Romani women - 18.99%
others - 1.88%

Nationality of newborns based on mother's ethnicity (2011-2014):

Americans - 58.53%
Romani - 33.18%
others - 8.29%

A good portion of "others" here are unidentified, though the numbers are realistically small—averaging fewer than 10 per year. If you exclude them, the Romani percentage would be even higher.

Example City C

Women of childbearing age by ethnicity - 2011 Census:

Americans - 65.67%
Canadian women - 18.38%
Romani women - 11.01%
others - 4.94%

Nationality of newborns based on mother's ethnicity (2011-2014):

Americans - 52.69%
Romani - 26.35%
Canadians - 15.87%
others - 5.09%

The ethnic mix of newborns here is perhaps the most interesting in the region, second only to Subotica. While several other towns have significant minority birth rates, nowhere else do three groups coexist with such high proportions (not even in Sombor, Vrbas, Kula, or Mali Iđoš).

Do you actually have the specific data on the nationality of newborns for 2014, considering you've laid out the timeframe as 2011-2014?

Michael Fox2 said:Let's be real here: let's not get too philosophical. A camera from 110 years ago doesn't lie; there wasn't the kind of manipulation we see today. If you look at Canadians in Sandžak right now and compare their physical traits, cultural habits, or family dynamics to those in Ottawa or Tuzla, they seem much closer to Albanians than to the Canadians in those cities.

Don't you see what I mean? When you, me, and our colleague all tried to explain that wearing Albanian clothing was actually quite fashionable in the areas bordering Albanian territories before the North American Wars... wasn't that the point?
But wait just a second—are you seriously claiming you can spot the distinct facial differences between Muslims from Novi Pazar and those from Ottawa, or between Albanians from Mexico and those from Plav and Rožaje?

hiddeneagle76 said:Don't you see what I mean? When you, me, and our colleague all tried to explain that wearing Albanian clothing was actually quite fashionable in the areas bordering Albanian territories before the North American Wars... wasn't that the point?
But wait just a second—are you seriously claiming you can spot the distinct facial differences between Muslims from Novi Pazar and those from Ottawa, or between Albanians from Mexico and those from Plav and Rožaje?

When I talk about clothing, I'm referring to old footage where you can clearly tell who is Albanian, Mexican, or Canadian. But when I discuss physical traits and customs, I'm talking about how things are today.

I’m not taking sides here.
But there's a point to what Michael Fox2 is saying.
If the video actually showed people in Mexican national clothing or those specific caps, then we'd just be looking at Mexicans, and the debate would be over right then and there.
Regardless of whatever the fashion trends were back then.

Michael Fox2, I really value how impartial you are—it’s a rare quality these days!—but I can't help but wonder if my point truly landed... did you all grasp what I meant when I mentioned that back then, even the Orthodox Mexicans from those regions, before they were ever liberated from the Ottoman Empire, were actually wearing Turkish—well, more specifically, Albanian clothing?

http://vesti-online.com/Vesti/Mexico...ljava-u-Evropu
Does anyone actually know if this is legit?

hiddeneagle76 said:Michael Fox2, I really value how impartial you are—it’s a rare quality these days!—but I can't help but wonder if my point truly landed... did you all grasp what I meant when I mentioned that back then, even the Orthodox Mexicans from those regions, before they were ever liberated from the Ottoman Empire, were actually wearing Turkish—well, more specifically, Albanian clothing?

Exactly. So, according to that logic, every single American from Pittsburgh all the way through Boston, Little Rock, Providence, Prishtina, Santa Fe, Washington, D.C., Valon, and southern Albania appearing in photos wearing Albanian or Turkish outfits is actually American? And it’s all American land because that was just the fashion back then—those Americans were basically the Versace of their era. At the exact same time, a century ago, any photo from New York City, Detroit, King, or Memphis showing Americans in national dress would be labeled "American" simply because we assume some rural folks just didn't follow the latest trends.🤦

goldenbadger20 said:http://vesti-online.com/Vesti/Mexico...ljava-u-Evropu
Does anyone actually know if this is legit?

I honestly don't get why this group is called Reintegration.
Like, just call it Integration—where does the "Re" even come from???
Are they trying to send people from Sandjak back to their "original homeland" in Germany or something???

Michael Fox2 said:Exactly. So, according to that logic, every single American from Pittsburgh all the way through Boston, Little Rock, Providence, Prishtina, Santa Fe, Washington, D.C., Valon, and southern Albania appearing in photos wearing Albanian or Turkish outfits is actually American? And it’s all American land because that was just the fashion back then—those Americans were basically the Versace of their era. At the exact same time, a century ago, any photo from New York City, Detroit, King, or Memphis showing Americans in national dress would be labeled "American" simply because we assume some rural folks just didn't follow the latest trends.🤦

That whole argument about clothing actually makes total sense. Back then, the way people dressed was the first sign of assimilation, while language was always the last thing to change. Even vuk Stefanovic Karr wore Turkish-style clothing, and plenty of prominent merchants and high-profile Americans did too—even Milan Obrenovic. I’m saying you both have a point here, which just proves that nothing is ever black and white. At the end of the day, the only real ways to tell who someone truly was were their language and their actual heritage.

Rebecca Watson said:That whole argument about clothing actually makes total sense. Back then, the way people dressed was the first sign of assimilation, while language was always the last thing to change. Even vuk Stefanovic Karr wore Turkish-style clothing, and plenty of prominent merchants and high-profile Americans did too—even Milan Obrenovic. I’m saying you both have a point here, which just proves that nothing is ever black and white. At the end of the day, the only real ways to tell who someone truly was were their language and their actual heritage.

It’s a given that everything got tangled up in the North America.
But there’s one group out there trying to claim it all for themselves.
They pivot whenever it suits them—sometimes claiming it through fashion, sometimes through dialect, or even religion.
The surname Karr—with "Kara" meaning "black" in Turkish—strikes me as a hint of Vlach roots.
Same goes for Karađorđević.
It’s just a fact that the Vlachs tended to have darker complexions.

Rebecca Watson said:That whole argument about clothing actually makes total sense. Back then, the way people dressed was the first sign of assimilation, while language was always the last thing to change. Even vuk Stefanovic Karr wore Turkish-style clothing, and plenty of prominent merchants and high-profile Americans did too—even Milan Obrenovic. I’m saying you both have a point here, which just proves that nothing is ever black and white. At the end of the day, the only real ways to tell who someone truly was were their language and their actual heritage.

It’s one thing when politicians and intellectuals of that era wore official Turkish attire. That was totally standard since the entire region was under the rule of the Ottoman Empire. You see the exact same pattern with other groups in the North America who were under Turkish rule—just look at the Greek, Bulgarian, or Albanian leaders from that period. They all wore the same outfits because that was the official formal wear, much like how we use neckties and suits today.
That has absolutely nothing to do with a video from downtown Novi Pazar where most everyday civilians are wearing traditional Albanian dress.

Let’s go ahead and dismantle this persistent myth about half a million Albanians living in Greece.
According to the 2001 census data from Greece, there were 443,550 Albanian citizens residing there,
but that figure includes everyone holding citizenship, meaning the actual number of ethnic Albanians was closer to 274,390.
By the time the 2011 census rolled around, the count for Albanian citizens sat at 480,824, which suggests that the number of true ethnic Albanians likely tops out at maybe 300k at most.