What's the point of required reading?

But honestly, the way Intelligent presents this is actually a massive issue—not just with required reading, but with the entire American education system. Everything is framed as a "must," boiled down to dry rote memorization of piles of useless data. Looking at that list Peter Doyle2 posted, I had to read 99% of it, and yet for most of those books, I don't even remember the plots or the characters anymore. There aren't any schools actually trying to engage students or make the material interesting; excuse me, what? That’s basically a recipe for turning a nation into a flock of sheep.
No one is saying school needs to be an amusement park or that teachers should be clowns, but a little break from this rigidity really wouldn't hurt! People immediately jump to extremes, starting from the premise that some blogger like Nika and stories about vampires will somehow replace all the classics ever written, as if there isn't a whole arsenal of quality works that kids could actually relate to 🙄

It would be interesting to see how this works abroad and what kind of required reading they have over there. We can try to comfort ourselves with "general culture" and whatnot, but at the end of the day, does any of this actually matter in real life (unless you're signing up for a trivia night)? The painful fact remains that American schools and the University of California (mostly) aren't held in high regard outside the US. And every potential change is met with total resistance—even this situation with required reading, though a few of us have already dealt with a system like this before.

You totally missed my point.
Look, I’m literally saying you don’t have to.
You don't owe anyone anything, just stop blaming everyone else for your own screw-ups.

Honestly, this is getting ridiculous. "It's too hard," "I'm bored," "I can't do it," "I don't want to," "it's stupid"—fine, whatever. If it's not for you, just say it's not for you and quit acting like it's some universal rule that nobody has to do anything.

First off, no, it's not "everyone."
Second, you don't have to.
You don't even need to have electricity in your house to make a choice.
But if you choose not to do something, then own it.
Man up.
Or woman up.
Just stand by your decision to skip out on something and leave it at that.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S24 using Reddit

Well, as far as I know, American schools include language arts in the curriculum for grades 3 through 4, and required reading is mandatory in all of them—I guess the only real difference is how much you have to read, though the book lists stay pretty much the same whether you're in middle school or high school—so saying you "don't have to" is probably a bit of a stretch on your part 🤷
Elementary school is mandatory. And so is the required reading. So, calling it "optional" is honestly a pretty weak argument.

rowdypanther12 said:hiddendriver34, I really hope you didn't mean that "genre fiction" can't move people the way the classics do. Honestly... 😁

Regarding the required reading list, I feel like we've covered most of this already. The title of this thread says it all.
What is the actual purpose of school reading lists?
I think this is where everyone starts to disagree.
Is the goal to introduce kids to fine art, or just to get them interested in reading? If it's the former, then the list is mostly fine (though maybe skip some of those overly dense classics 😂). But if the goal is to spark a love for books, then the current selection is a disaster.
That's my two cents. 😁

Oh, goodness, no! Personally, the stuff labeled as "classics" makes me want to roll my eyes. My point is that anything required reading for school should actually count as art, not just cheap filler. Sure, you can read trash if you want to, but let's call it what it is: trash. 😁

Look, you can easily grab two out of her—it’s all about being entitled, acting like a jerk, just skimming through some book and calling it a day.
Why is that such a big deal?
Because if everyone found everything interesting enough to pull an A+, the whole system would be trash.
But that’s not how things work anywhere, period.
We’re all turning into mindless sheep because life lacks any actual challenge, not because we’re reading Fyodor Dostoevsky.

Richard Perez3 said:Look, you can easily grab two out of her—it’s all about being entitled, acting like a jerk, just skimming through some book and calling it a day.
Why is that such a big deal?
Because if everyone found everything interesting enough to pull an A+, the whole system would be trash.
But that’s not how things work anywhere, period.
We’re all turning into mindless sheep because life lacks any actual challenge, not because we’re reading Fyodor Dostoevsky.

So we went from "you don't have to" to "you absolutely have to, damn it" for the sake of a grade, I guess.😉
Here’s a challenge for you, then: try getting a seventeen-year-old interested in Fyodor Dostoevsky without resorting to that dry, "you must do this" attitude.😉

Let's just agree to disagree, okay? I'm not really looking to go back and forth on this—we're clearly never going to see eye to eye😬 and since my kids aren't even being educated in the US, I'm not sure why I'm even weighing in on this topic at all.😬

Peter Doyle2, since you're up there in Canada, see if you can dig up what they're actually teaching in schools over there.

Man, I’ve been thinking about this too—I'm genuinely curious what they're actually up to in high school.
My daughter is only in second grade, and they don't really assign specific required reading lists yet. But instead, they have this whole "Home Reading" program, and she practically comes home with a different book every single day. Sometimes it's fiction, sometimes it's non-fiction—like yesterday, she had this book all about how milk turns into ice cream. They spend time in the school library every day and pick out books to read right there in class (since they don't really use traditional textbooks). She reads incredibly well without us having to lift a finger at home; she just loves reading and absolutely loves school. I honestly don't think it'll hurt her in the long run that she isn't sitting there dissecting every single plot point, setting, timeline, or character arc for every little book... 😬

Yeah, we gotta stick to my guns on this one because I just can't wrap my head around the idea of removing something just because some kid finds it boring.
Who cares? Honestly, anything can be boring if you're the type of person who just sits there taking everything passively.

Edit. Like, would it actually kill her to find out?

Richard Perez3 and Persephone, honestly, hats off to you both—you really should just put your signature on every single post at this point!👍

So, my kid tells me today that in their whole third-grade class—there are 25 kids total—it’s just him and one other girl who actually bother to read books outside of the required school reading list.
At first, I thought it was just weird, but then I started thinking about how things are at my office with the older crowd, and honestly... it’s pretty much the same story over there too...

Peter Doyle2 said:Man, I’ve been thinking about this too—I'm genuinely curious what they're actually up to in high school.
My daughter is only in second grade, and they don't really assign specific required reading lists yet. But instead, they have this whole "Home Reading" program, and she practically comes home with a different book every single day. Sometimes it's fiction, sometimes it's non-fiction—like yesterday, she had this book all about how milk turns into ice cream. They spend time in the school library every day and pick out books to read right there in class (since they don't really use traditional textbooks). She reads incredibly well without us having to lift a finger at home; she just loves reading and absolutely loves school. I honestly don't think it'll hurt her in the long run that she isn't sitting there dissecting every single plot point, setting, timeline, or character arc for every little book... 😬

Mine is in second grade too, and so far they've just done group or individual worksheets to cover their reading assignments. From what I can tell, they haven't started that deep-dive analysis yet.😁 I love that they have this approach and are gradually getting used to this style of work and writing. It seems like most kids who get assigned books at home end up just having their parents write them.

Richard Perez3 said:Look, the point is that you read it.
It doesn't have to be fun.

If you want electricity, you gotta pay the bill. If you want to pay the bill, you need money. If you need money, you have to go earn it somehow. Whether you enjoyed doing it or not—that's beside the point. If your job sucks, bad luck, but you're still gonna do it because you need the paycheck, and you need the lights on. If you can make the job tolerable, or maybe, if you get lucky, actually interesting—hooray! If not, it'll suck, but you're still gonna grind through it because you need that freaking electricity. And nobody's gonna give a damn about how much you hate your job.

Or—you won't have electricity. Metaphorically speaking, you'll get an F on the reading assignment—a bad grade in English class—a failing grade—and you'll fail the grade. But you'll read the book if you want to pass the grade/earn your paycheck.

Honestly, I don't get why this is so hard to wrap your head around.

Richard Perez3 said:Seriously, what the hell is there even supposed to be "attracting"?

Let them "bond" over Playboy in their spare time. Whatever.

What do you even need to "pull" to get this year's revenue into an Excel sheet just to run a P&L?

Look, it’s pretty simple. It’s your job, period. If you don't get the work done, you don't get paid. Honestly, I think that alone is more than enough motivation for anyone to actually show up and do what they're supposed to do. No extra nonsense needed.

If the entire purpose of education is to condition children to become adults who blindly perform tasks they find tedious, mindless, or pointless just so they can afford their electric bills later, then I fail to see why we bother them with literature and a full curriculum. Instead, we might as well have them sewing garments or sanding table legs for seven dollars an hour. It would teach them the exact same lesson: sit still and do your job. Plus, it would provide a controlled environment where they are supervised while their parents are at work, preventing them from forming gangs and running rackets in the neighborhoods. At least there would be some tangible output.

Seven bucks an hour, five hours a day, for 175 school days a year is $2042, multiplied by eight years, equals $49,000.

If we let them listen to audiobooks and podcasts while they sand or sew, they might not end up completely uneducated by the end of those eight years.

The only logistical hurdle is figuring out where to house the instructors during work hours so they don't start running gangs or extorting local neighborhoods, but I suppose even that problem could be solved with enough ingenuity.

The whole point of school is to give you a massive range of options. It’s about building that foundation so one day you actually have the freedom to choose—whether you want to be a surgeon, a professor, a baker, or a mechanic. Or, honestly, you could just choose to do none of those things at all.

But look, if you want that kind of total freedom to pick whatever path you want, there are certain hoops you have to jump through first.

My bad, I gotta run to Home Depot. Let's pick this back up tomorrow. 👋

Richard Perez3 said:Yeah, we gotta stick to my guns on this one because I just can't wrap my head around the idea of removing something just because some kid finds it boring.
Who cares? Honestly, anything can be boring if you're the type of person who just sits there taking everything passively.

Edit. Like, would it actually kill her to find out?

Just to circle back to this one more time; it isn't about whether "some" kid finds it boring. The real issue is that 99.9% of people don't find required reading "boring"—they find it unbearable. If you ran a poll among 30 or 40-year-olds, I bet the results regarding what they read and their opinions on it would be pretty negative—not to mention among the younger generation.
The thing is, you have to analyze the content, build arguments, and characterize the figures—you have to understand them, their motives, and why they act the way they do; but a lot of these works feel completely foreign to kids today. Raskolnikov isn't even the biggest hurdle here, but something like Moby Dick...
In my view, what I wrote above is basically the whole point of assigned reading—it's a work we can argue about if we're dissecting it or writing essays on its characters. But that kind of approach requires actually grasping what was read. How much can a teenager truly grasp about Dunda Maroje?

Richard Perez3 said:The whole point of school is to give you a massive range of options. It’s about building that foundation so one day you actually have the freedom to choose—whether you want to be a surgeon, a professor, a baker, or a mechanic. Or, honestly, you could just choose to do none of those things at all.

But look, if you want that kind of total freedom to pick whatever path you want, there are certain hoops you have to jump through first.

My bad, I gotta run to Home Depot. Let's pick this back up tomorrow. 👋

If you just want that kind of info, you can listen to a podcast while you're lacing up your sneakers.

Raymond Jones8 said:So, my kid tells me today that in their whole third-grade class—there are 25 kids total—it’s just him and one other girl who actually bother to read books outside of the required school reading list.
At first, I thought it was just weird, but then I started thinking about how things are at my office with the older crowd, and honestly... it’s pretty much the same story over there too...

That isn't the case for me. Out of ten close female friends, seven of them are reading almost every single day, even while juggling kids, work, and everything else life throws at them. Men seem to read way less; maybe three out of ten, though a few others at least pick up professional literature or go back to school in their late teens or twenties.

I've been a reader my whole life; I just love it. To be honest, the required reading lists back in high school were endlessly boring, and I can barely remember any of them. I could only ever focus on a couple if I had total peace and quiet. I'll sign off on what Peter Doyle2 said, because my take on this thread is similar to what Kuki is saying now: if the whole point of assigned reading is to force-feed kids information they can't digest or even understand, then we're doing it wrong. Forcing kids to struggle through books they don't connect with doesn't build critical thinking skills—if anything, it just makes them want to stay away from books forever.

Peter Doyle2 said:Just to circle back to this one more time; it isn't about whether "some" kid finds it boring. The real issue is that 99.9% of people don't find required reading "boring"—they find it unbearable. If you ran a poll among 30 or 40-year-olds, I bet the results regarding what they read and their opinions on it would be pretty negative—not to mention among the younger generation.
The thing is, you have to analyze the content, build arguments, and characterize the figures—you have to understand them, their motives, and why they act the way they do; but a lot of these works feel completely foreign to kids today. Raskolnikov isn't even the biggest hurdle here, but something like Moby Dick...
In my view, what I wrote above is basically the whole point of assigned reading—it's a work we can argue about if we're dissecting it or writing essays on its characters. But that kind of approach requires actually grasping what was read. How much can a teenager truly grasp about Dunda Maroje?

Wait a second now...
I think you’d get the exact same "result" if you asked kids about math.
About 99.9% of students wouldn't say math is just boring; they'd tell you it's a nightmare.
And just as much as people love to drone on about how STEM is this incredibly vital field essential to every single aspect of life on Earth, I guess the post-industrial reality of the US tends to contradict those claims a bit.
I mean, most people don't actually need to master quadratic equations, trigonometry, or imaginary numbers.
Most people don't need them, if I'm being honest—actually, hardly anyone does.😁
But nowadays, it seems quite fashionable to babble about STEM as if it's absolutely essential, and within those subjects, there's plenty of filler, tedious stuff, and nonsense that the average person is never going to touch in their lifetime.

I wonder why there isn't a thread here titled What's the point of vectors?
Maybe it's because, unlike literature where you can at least argue your own opinion, there's no practical application for it in daily life?
Yeah, right.☕

That's a great point, Elvis Presley. I wonder if we should just start a dedicated math thread so we don't clutter this one about reading lists?
Random photo, my soda can holder 😬

urbantinker8 said:Wait a second now...
I think you’d get the exact same "result" if you asked kids about math.
About 99.9% of students wouldn't say math is just boring; they'd tell you it's a nightmare.
And just as much as people love to drone on about how STEM is this incredibly vital field essential to every single aspect of life on Earth, I guess the post-industrial reality of the US tends to contradict those claims a bit.
I mean, most people don't actually need to master quadratic equations, trigonometry, or imaginary numbers.
Most people don't need them, if I'm being honest—actually, hardly anyone does.😁
But nowadays, it seems quite fashionable to babble about STEM as if it's absolutely essential, and within those subjects, there's plenty of filler, tedious stuff, and nonsense that the average person is never going to touch in their lifetime.

I wonder why there isn't a thread here titled What's the point of vectors?
Maybe it's because, unlike literature where you can at least argue your own opinion, there's no practical application for it in daily life?
Yeah, right.☕

...music, art, chemistry, biology, cycling, skiing, you name it. You'll get the same identical answer every single time.

The biggest issue here is that they have a smartphone in their hand (which is fine enough) while simultaneously believing that WhatsApp is some kind of massive social media platform. 🙂