What's the point of required reading?

Linda Price5 said:Take a look at Lana over on those influencer pages and Instagram feeds in suburban Connecticut. 😬

Tara Westover was only seventeen when she stepped foot in a classroom for the first time; before that, aside from her brother teaching her how to read, she was essentially self-taught. Fast forward to today, and she’s in her early thirties with a PhD.

I’m not suggesting we neglect our children, but it’s clear that adults who actually *want* to learn are far more efficient than kids who are just being dragged along to chase a piece of paper.

That's true, and here's a little fun fact: in the US, you don't actually need a high school diploma to enroll in college or even go for a PhD. I was reading this article recently about a woman who has a PhD but dropped out of high school—she doesn't even have a GED. I guess that wouldn't be possible in America. 😬

briskjackal5 said:But hey, look at how much stuff people actually learn in an American elementary school English class during a whole year? 😁
Things just take time, I guess.

To you, those few math concepts we mentioned seem totally trivial because you handle them without even thinking about it now.
But maybe you're forgetting how much actual time and practice went into it—that's exactly why it feels easy; you mastered it a long time ago.

And the rest of the population actually has to go through this process and learn it.

Plus, if someone happens to grasp a specific topic faster or easier, they can move on to much tougher, more challenging problems.

I don't really know about Lana or what she would do in six months... do you really think if she focused *only* on math, starting from scratch, she'd be ahead? Maybe. But then she'd be missing the other 12 or 13 subjects.

-briskjackal5

Well, Kuki was only talking about math—so, I suppose a year is plenty of time for a graduate to master the core middle and high school math curriculum. Most of it is repetitive anyway since everything is interconnected; if someone spends four or five hours every single day on math, an average student could probably learn enough to get a decent C on an AP exam.

Besides, college expects you to master much more extensive material in a significantly shorter amount of time. 😁

In my view, anyone lacking that fundamental aptitude wouldn't qualify as a high-level STEM professional anyway. Most other students can simply pick up whatever math they require in a matter of hours—or perhaps a few dozen if they happen to need more than the average amount. Consequently, mandating four-digit numbers of math hours for every single student essentially serves one purpose... recruiting math teachers.

Christian Wilson28 said:Look, teenagers love them—I loved them too. It’s pure teenage angst fuel, honestly.

Salinger is fine since he's actually readable. Flaubert was pretty big back in the day, and things like Nora or the Russians were accepted in a "whatever" kind of way, I guess.

It’s sad to say, but the biggest issue with our American school reading lists is all those old classics about settlers and pioneers.

And the plays? They're often taught so poorly—it wasn't until college that I actually figured out how to read Shakespeare without wanting to die. But hey, better late than never.

I’m not really sure where you're getting that data from, but most kids today don't really have any patience for those specific authors or their works.
i mean, what does it matter if you personally loved them back in the day?🤔
maybe something like *The Metamorphosis* might fly because it's short, but honestly, who actually wants to sit through reading about a slow process?🤣

Linda Price5 said:Seriously, if someone told you, "this portion of your job is no longer being compensated," would you still be just as eager—or perhaps even less willing—to perform those duties?

Do you honestly think people would read classic literature more often if they had to pay per title and then proportionally based on how many pages they actually turned?😁

No, I believe we are living in 2019, and we should be exploring educational models that are far more relevant to life in the 21st century and more efficient than what we have now. The goal should be that after eight or twelve years, more people possess a broader toolkit to facilitate a higher quality of life, whatever that definition may be for the individual.

There is certainly still room for literature, mathematics, grammar, philosophy, and chemistry, but not within this idiotic "rote-memorize-repeat-forget" framework that is currently so highly valued.

Listen, for instance, to an episode of unknown's unknown, compare it to an average hour of history class, and tell me honestly who comes out on top.

there, it's not like we haven't tried that. maybe suddenly everyone would start hysterically worshiping Camus, Sartre, and Kafka.🎉

Neither of us is hysterically enamored with the most tedious aspects of our jobs, but we receive something in return (money).

If a student isn't attending school to actually educate themselves but merely to acquire a diploma, I don't see the issue if they decide to purchase one. 😁

yeah, obviously. assuming my boss isn't bullying me or trying to get me fired, I suppose.🤷
personally, I don't get paid to debate parents about their life philosophies, mental health, or how they handle their bank accounts; I just grit my teeth, waste my time, deal with the stress, and move on.
it's not weird, it's just kind of sad, I guess.🤷

Unknown:

No, I think it's 2019, and we should probably be looking at ways to educate people that actually make sense for life in the 21st century—ways that are more effective than what we have now—so that after eight or twelve years, more people actually have the tools to live better lives, whatever that means to them. There's definitely still room for literature, math, grammar, philosophy, and chemistry, but maybe not in this mindless "cram-memorize-vomit-forget" way that seems to be so popular lately.

it’s just that some things eventually get rote.
if someone is just memorizing stuff just to spit it back out and forget it, they're either an idiot or they have a terrible professor. that style of learning hasn't been "in" since the nineties.
(do you even live in America? it feels like you're being guided by prejudices from thirty years ago)

briskjackal5 said:

Hey there! I was just sitting here thinking about everything we discussed earlier, and honestly, I feel like I have so much more to say about it all! It’s funny how things work out sometimes, isn't it? I guess I might be overthinking this, but I just can't help myself. I really wanted to jump back in and share some thoughts because I've been buzzing about this all morning! Anyway, hope you guys are having an absolutely wonderful day! kaže:
Of course it can! I mean, carpenters have been around for thousands of years, right? But those massive high schools that everyone seems to flock to nowadays? Honestly, they’re kind of a relatively recent invention, if you think about it.

Spot on. Totally true.
I mean, it just wasn't really doable back then, I guess... mostly because getting enough food was such a struggle, and honestly, we just didn't have any free time to breathe!
I mean, honestly, it feels like the sheer amount of info we’re all expected to know has just exploded lately, right? It’s kind of wild. Because everything is moving so fast, I guess there’s this much more intense pressure now to stay in school longer. Like, you can't just stop at a basic level anymore; there's such a huge need for more advanced degrees and extra schooling just to keep up with how much stuff there is to learn these days!

Back then, getting a decent education was... well, I guess you could say it was a total luxury. Just wasn't something everyone could just jump into, you know? It was definitely a privilege.

So, today’s election day, right? Everyone is out there casting their votes... I guess the whole "skip high school to just focus on learning how to sand wood" strategy isn't exactly winning many votes this year! Haha!

It could totally work. Honestly, it’s not even that crazy when you think about it—I mean, Americans aren't just some random number one for no reason, right? They actually have access to things that feels way closer to what we're looking for than anything else we've got.
And that actually played a huge part—like, a really massive part—in their success!

So, when you say "mastered" it... I mean, are we talking about like, actually passing a math midterm in maybe twenty minutes? Or are we talking about developing this whole lifelong habit of using math in your daily life? I guess it depends on how you look at it! Maybe both? Haha!

Neither one, nor the other. I mean, honestly? Neither.

I mean, honestly? This whole example feels a bit half-baked to me. It’s just way too vague, and I feel like people are spinning way too many wild theories out of it for a topic like this. It's probably overthinking things, I guess!

I mean, I’m pretty sure that even if it’s been ages since someone sat through fifth grade, seventh grade, or even high school, they can still actually use what they learned. I guess it's just because you mentioned there aren't any cognitive limitations holding them back!

I think he might have totally missed the mark on those percentages... or maybe the whole sense of proportion? Or honestly, I guess even the geometry part seems a bit off to me!
And honestly, I think it’d be super helpful to get a good look at the coordinate system and all those different curves too! It might make things way clearer, I guess.

I mean, I really think he pulled it off! He totally nailed it, I guess.

So, let’s do the math on this for a second. If a student spends, what, maybe two hours a week on math? So that’s like 2 hours times 54 weeks times 12 years of schooling. After all those twelve years of grinding away at math, what have they actually gained? I mean, they can tell you exactly how many gallons of Sherwin-Williams paint to buy to redo their apartment, or if the local grocer is trying to rip them off on the price of apples... but that's about it! Sure, they know the definition of a circle and how to solve a quadratic equation, but honestly, when was the last time a quadratic equation actually showed up in your daily life? Seriously, probably never!

I mean, let's be real here... most of that deep, theoretical stuff? It’s just not actually useful for the average person going about their daily life. I guess if you aren't working in a lab or something, you probably won't ever need half of it!

So, I guess what I’m trying to get at is... what's even the point behind all this? It feels like it's partly because, honestly, most people aren't really putting much actual knowledge into practice anyway. I mean, maybe that's just how it is, but it feels like a lot of effort for very little payoff! Whatever! I mean, honestly, anything at all! Just throw something my way and let's see where it goes!.
I mean, look, it’s not like it's strictly necessary. I wouldn't say it isn't useful—honestly, I think it could actually be pretty helpful for a lot of people—but, you know, it just isn't a total requirement. It's just one of those things!
Look, I mean, I actually laid out all those specific things he was studying, and it really seems like the material stuck with him. Plus, you were the one who pointed out those real-world applications yourself! Especially when it comes to math, it just makes sense.
I mean, I guess for all the other kinds of stuff out there, you probably won't even find nearly as many of them! Maybe they just aren't as common? Who knows! 😁

I mean, honestly? I think the smartest way to go about picking materials is to find that sweet spot—you know, finding a balance between what’s theoretically "unlikely to be used," general knowledge, and just straight-up practical application. Just because the "majority" of people aren't using something doesn't mean it's irrelevant on its own. It's definitely a factor to consider, sure, but it shouldn't be the only thing we look at. We really shouldn't just toss everything out just because it isn't widely used!
I mean, I don't know, maybe it's just me, but I really feel like it’s a bad move to raise a bunch of total idiots who decide they want to be carpenters back in fifth grade and then just... never grow out of it intellectually? Like, they just grab a hammer at twelve years old and that’s basically it for them. It feels a bit much, I guess!
And I mean, it’s not just about avoiding pure stupidity—society isn't built solely on its ability to turn a profit or manufacture stuff, you know? It has this whole culture behind it that goes way deeper than just economics.

Plus, as an society, we really want to nurture those people who can actually tackle the super complex stuff. And honestly, I think it’ll be pretty tough to make that happen if they don't even get through, say, our standard American middle school math curriculum.
Even the harder high school stuff. 😁

I guess those would just be the starting points for any real discussion about what we should be doing in schools.

And looking at it that way, I feel like the net effect of math classes for that individual was actually totally positive. Maybe your take on their aversion to it—or how much it messed things up for them—is a bit exaggerated or just off base? I mean, if we want to actually move forward as a country, we really ought to look at these net effects for society as a whole, rather than just focusing on one specific person.

Otherwise, the stuff that’s going to be more useful in everyday life—whether through social interaction or just general living—can actually be picked up through reading literature. Since we're already talking about it! 😁

They have an even bigger hatred for math now, more resistance whenever they try to grasp anything mathematical, and way less motivation to learn it than if they had never studied it at all.

And you think that's a net positive result? Wow, okay then.

No, that’s not really a "result" at all. That's just your perspective, which I think is partly right, partly a bit superficial, and partly just plain wrong. 😁

How much school math do you actually use in daily life? BTW, how are you applying knowledge of logarithms, limits, or the volume of a pyramid?

I chose to go to a prep school by my own choice. And honestly, none of that stuff I learned bothers me at all. I never once thought, "Man, I wish I knew that!" after graduating, though I do find myself thinking—relatively often, I guess 😁—"I wish I could remember this part better!"
If I were in certain college programs, I'd probably still be using everything I learned. For all sorts of subjects, from biology and art to math.
The fact that I didn't pick some of them was just my call.

If I hadn't gone through that education, I wouldn't have even had the choice to begin with; if we didn't have access to that kind of schooling, nobody in the US would be able to keep up with what comes next, specifically with the examples you mentioned. We'd basically have to shut down all the STEM colleges. 😁

Besides, I really feel like math develops abstract thinking and just exercises the brain in so many different ways all on its own.
And I guess the same goes for language, too.

-briskjackal5

bravo!👍

Linda Price5 said:Do you honestly believe an eighteen-year-old with genuine drive and focus wouldn't be able to master high school level math within a single year, even if they started from scratch?

Well, I'd say absolutely not.🤷

I mean, personally, I don't really find myself losing sleep over those few hours I spent grinding through math problems back in the day. It isn't like I have any lingering trauma or insomnia because of it; I was never particularly obsessed with the subject, though I suppose I understood everything just fine and cruised through the curriculum without much trouble, I guess.
The fact that I did it while being totally miserable—and that I have zero use for any of it now—is probably my own issue to deal with.
But honestly, I'm not exactly crying about it either.

Christian Wilson28 said:Look, teenagers love them—I loved them too. It’s pure teenage angst fuel, honestly.

Salinger is fine since he's actually readable. Flaubert was pretty big back in the day, and things like Nora or the Russians were accepted in a "whatever" kind of way, I guess.

It’s sad to say, but the biggest issue with our American school reading lists is all those old classics about settlers and pioneers.

And the plays? They're often taught so poorly—it wasn't until college that I actually figured out how to read Shakespeare without wanting to die. But hey, better late than never.

I actually have to disagree with you on this one.

Take these favorites, for example:
Raymond Chandler: Three in Brooklyn
unknown: The Long Run
unknown: Fear on Maple Street
unknown: The Hero.

Those were just some random examples, but I wouldn't go so far as to say people don't appreciate American literature.
Back in high school, we read Without the Third (by Milan Begović), and honestly, everyone loved it. We spent hours debating it in class. I later picked up his novel about Giga Barićev which is excellent. 😍

I've been following this thread for days now, and my take remains the same: the problem isn't really the reading list itself, it's how the material is actually taught in the classroom.😁

urbantinker8 said:I’m not really sure where you're getting that data from, but most kids today don't really have any patience for those specific authors or their works.
i mean, what does it matter if you personally loved them back in the day?🤔
maybe something like *The Metamorphosis* might fly because it's short, but honestly, who actually wants to sit through reading about a slow process?🤣

yeah, obviously. assuming my boss isn't bullying me or trying to get me fired, I suppose.🤷
personally, I don't get paid to debate parents about their life philosophies, mental health, or how they handle their bank accounts; I just grit my teeth, waste my time, deal with the stress, and move on.
it's not weird, it's just kind of sad, I guess.🤷

Unknown:

No, I think it's 2019, and we should probably be looking at ways to educate people that actually make sense for life in the 21st century—ways that are more effective than what we have now—so that after eight or twelve years, more people actually have the tools to live better lives, whatever that means to them. There's definitely still room for literature, math, grammar, philosophy, and chemistry, but maybe not in this mindless "cram-memorize-vomit-forget" way that seems to be so popular lately.

it’s just that some things eventually get rote.
if someone is just memorizing stuff just to spit it back out and forget it, they're either an idiot or they have a terrible professor. that style of learning hasn't been "in" since the nineties.
(do you even live in America? it feels like you're being guided by prejudices from thirty years ago)

There’s a massive difference between saying, "I don't feel like reading because school is boring and I'd rather play Fortnite or grab coffee with friends, but fine, I read the whole thing and it wasn't terrible—I'll probably end up using this book for the rest of my life,"
versus just staring at the page, barely grasping a few words per line, thinking, "I couldn't care less about this stuff, I'll never see how it relates to my own life because I didn't even understand half of what was written."

Anthony Ward6 said:That's true, and here's a little fun fact: in the US, you don't actually need a high school diploma to enroll in college or even go for a PhD. I was reading this article recently about a woman who has a PhD but dropped out of high school—she doesn't even have a GED. I guess that wouldn't be possible in America. 😬

Well, Kuki was only talking about math—so, I suppose a year is plenty of time for a graduate to master the core middle and high school math curriculum. Most of it is repetitive anyway since everything is interconnected; if someone spends four or five hours every single day on math, an average student could probably learn enough to get a decent C on an AP exam.

Besides, college expects you to master much more extensive material in a significantly shorter amount of time. 😁

I don't know, I guess I just really dig the American model... or at least certain parts of how it works! Maybe it's just me, but there's definitely something about its specific features that I find pretty appealing.

I also feel like we have this massive issue here in the States where there’s just such a huge lack of direction and actual ideas during high school to help kids prep for college. It feels like so many students end up enrolling in programs without having any real clue what they're doing or even why they're doing it, you know? And then you have government agencies trying to hand out scholarships for specific high-demand jobs, but even when they try, they can't seem to actually get those funds distributed effectively to the people who need them. It's all just kind of a mess, I guess.

I mean, it’s honestly pretty tough to make any real comparisons with other countries without spending ages digging through piles of data, I guess. It just feels like you'd need to do a massive amount of research to get anything right!

I feel like there’s honestly so much room for us to level up here! It’s such a massive, deep topic too, but I guess I'll just skip over it for now since this specific thread is mostly meant for discussing our reading lists. 😁

...
I mean, honestly—when you're at a university in the States, they basically expect you to master a massive amount of material in way, way less time than you'd think. It’s kind of wild, really! 😁

More details per unit of time, yeah... I mean, that's true. Well, if you actually went to a college like that, I guess.
I mean, it’s totally normal, right? Like, you finally picked something to actually focus on, and everyone’s basically saying you’re killing it! It feels like you can actually stay dialed in for longer stretches now, you know? You don't need to spend an entire year just practicing the basics before you can even get started. It just makes sense!

It’s kind of funny when you think about it... I mean, once you hit adulthood and land a job on a construction site, everyone just expects you to manhandle 100-pound bags of concrete like it's nothing, right? But then you look back at elementary school, and kids are basically acting like carrying a five-pound backpack is some kind of massive physical struggle. Life really changes fast, I guess!

So? 😁

I mean, I really think intellectual abilities grow just like physical ones do—you know, like building muscle at the gym? It’s all about that constant training, I guess!

I mean, I don't really think it's a valid conclusion to say you should just sit around and wait until you turn 18 before doing anything, you know? I guess maybe it's possible to feel that way, but I'm not so sure! Just... just one thing. I mean, it’s just because you're gonna be way more efficient once you finally hit 18! 😁

I don't know, I guess I'm just really excited about this! Maybe it’s because the weather is finally turning around here, but I’ve been feeling so incredibly upbeat lately! It’s funny, isn't it? How much a little sunshine can change your whole mood? Anyway, I was just sitting here thinking about everything, and I honestly feel like things are just clicking into place! I mean, maybe I'm being a bit too optimistic, but I really think we're heading toward something great. Just an observation, I guess! kaže:
I mean, honestly? If someone can't wrap their head around it, they probably wouldn't make a great fit for a STEM-focused organization anyway. It’s just how it goes, I guess. And besides, most other people can pretty much pick up whatever math they actually need in just a few hours—or maybe a couple of dozen hours if they're dealing with something way above average. It shouldn't be that big of a deal!

It’s already been said, but I really think that most of these people—and I mean beyond just the math stuff—could actually pick up everything they "need" to know in just a few dozen hours. I mean, maybe? It seems totally doable if they actually put in the work!
I mean, I guess it’s just because... well, let's be real, most of what we need to actually survive day-to-day—and honestly, even most of the jobs that "everyone else" is doing these days—doesn't really require any crazy high level of specialized knowledge or intense skill sets. It's just... yeah, maybe it's simpler than we think!

I mean, honestly? The people who are actually meant to be in your life... they just find their way to you. They really do. I guess it’s just one of those things, right? Like, if someone is truly supposed to be there, they’ll show up. It’s almost like fate or something!

Plus, I mean, totally ignoring stuff like biology or geography—you know, all those general knowledge subjects—is probably not the smartest move either. Especially in a situation where someone is just starting their studies at 18, right? They aren't going to be able to just absorb everything all at once. I guess it would be way too much to handle.

-Steve

I honestly don't know how people can even talk about this stuff without getting totally worked up! It’s just... I mean, maybe I'm being too much? But anyway! I was reading some things earlier—you know, just browsing—and it really got me thinking about how much everything changes depending on who you ask. I guess I just feel like we should be more chill about it all? Like, seriously! Everything feels so intense lately. I was chatting with Daniel Perez6 the other day, and even they were saying how wild things have become. It’s just crazy, right? Maybe it’s just me, though. I probably overthink everything. I definitely do! But still, there's just so much noise out there. I really wish we could just sit back, grab a coffee, and not worry about every little thing for once. Just a thought! Or a big thought? Who knows! kaže:
So, I was just thinking about Tara Westover... man, her story is just wild. She was only 17 when she finally stepped foot in a classroom for the very first time! Can you imagine? Before that, she was basically teaching herself everything there is to know about the world, aside from her brother helping her out with reading. It’s just incredible. Fast forward to today, and she’s in her early thirties with an actual PhD to her name. Talk about a massive journey, right? Just wow.

Look, I’m definitely not saying we should just ignore kids or anything like that—don't get me wrong! But, I guess it's pretty obvious that when you have adults who actually *want* to learn, they tend to get through their education way more effectively than kids who are just being forced to grind away just to get a piece of paper. It's just how it seems to me, maybe?

I mean, let’s be real here—adults generally just get things done way more efficiently than kids do. Like, practically everything, really! I guess there might be one or two tiny things where kids actually hold the edge, but it’s probably not in any area where adults would even bother measuring efficiency. If we were actually looking for peak efficiency in certain tasks, we'd probably just be hiring toddlers instead! 😁).
I mean, I guess it’s also because they picked up so much stuff while they were growing up—you know, either directly or just by soaking it all in from the people around them. It's like they learned it all through osmosis, maybe?

And honestly, even those kids who feel like they’re just being pushed to go get their high school diploma? I mean, they actually walk away with so much more than just a piece of paper. They end up gaining this massive amount of knowledge and a whole toolkit of life skills that they probably wouldn't have ever picked up if they hadn't been nudged to stick it out. It's like, they learn way more than what's just written in the textbooks, you know?
It’s not even like parents are really out there dragging their kids kicking and screaming to school, you know? It isn't quite that extreme... I guess it's more like they just don't exactly fight against it, if that makes sense. They aren't exactly being defiant or anything!

So, basically, the whole idea that adults are more efficient than they are... I guess it's just moot at this point.

I mean, honestly, I think all these ideas about how to make our education system actually work better are just great—like, there is so much room for improvement, really! But, I don't know, I don't think the best way forward is this idea where we just strip away everything that isn't "practically essential" and tell kids they can just pick their own path at 18. I guess if we did that, you’d still have to sit through biology, geography, math, literature, languages, and... well, the whole list, right? You’d end up with this massive ocean of subjects. By the time you finally hit 18, you’ve already been through the entire gamut—from basic recognition all the way up to advanced synthesis—regardless of whether you actually care about it or not. It feels like we'd just be delaying the inevitable!
So, I was thinking about that scenario where you’re picking a tea when you turn 18... and I guess if you're starting at zero, maybe you should just be picking one single thing? Just one, you know? I don't know, it feels like that might be the way to go!

Alright, let's get back to talking about those required reading lists!

I was just thinking about that book, and... well, I don't know! It’s hard to put into words exactly how it hit me. Maybe it was the way the story unfolded? Or maybe it was just the mood? I guess I’m just rambling now, but there was something about it that felt so incredibly real. It’s funny how a few hundred pages can just stick in your brain like that, you know? I might be overthinking it, though. It was just... wow. Such a trip! Honestly, I feel like reading is just... it’s its own thing entirely. Like, it doesn't even need a reason, you know? You don't necessarily need to be "learning" something or hitting some specific goal to make it worth it. Sometimes, I guess, it's just about the act itself. It's that feeling of getting lost in a story or just sinking into the pages, and maybe that's enough. Just the pure experience of it! It’s just... wow. All that wisdom and all those little realizations we get hit with, right? Some of them are just totally obvious—like, you hit the point and it clicks instantly. Then there are those other ones, too, where you kind of soak them up just by reading along, even if you aren't really trying to focus on them directly. I guess you just absorb them. And then there are the ones that feel more... specific? Maybe? It’s just wild how much you pick up without even realizing it! So, I was just sitting here thinking about all those little things—you know, the intangibles? It’s funny how we always focus on the hard data, the metrics, and the stuff you can actually count on your fingers, but I guess the real magic happens in that gray area. Maybe it's the vibe of a room, or that weirdly specific gut feeling you get when a project is finally clicking. It’s hard to pin down, right? Like, how do you even put a number on someone's energy or that sense of trust that builds up over time between teammates? You can't really measure it on a spreadsheet, I suppose. But honestly, I feel like those unquantifiable bits are what actually make or break everything in the end. It’s all that subtle, invisible stuff! I mean, there are just some things you just *know* intuitively, right? Like, you can feel them deep down, but honestly, trying to actually put them into words is almost impossible because everything gets so incredibly complicated once you try to explain it. I guess what I'm getting at is that these little intuitive hunches... they provide such an immense advantage. They’re seriously huge, even if we can't quite articulate why!

I honestly think it’s such a great idea for kids to have some required reading assigned in school—like, I don't see any reason why not! It just seems like a solid move, you know?

So, we could totally sit around and debate the best way to tackle this reading assignment, right? Like, we could go back and forth on which books should actually be on the syllabus and which ones definitely shouldn't be—and honestly, I could see why people argue about that. But, I guess, if you ask me... the whole point of it is pretty much set in stone. Its purpose is just undeniable!

I really feel like this is such a huge deal in a practical sense, you know? Especially since it’s something that hits us on both a conscious and a subconscious level. I mean, just exposing your mind to all that literary content... it really changes things. I guess it's just so important!
So, what actually happened to this guy? Like, seriously, why?! I mean, how did he even go through all that? And then there’s that third girl—what was she even thinking with those ideas of hers? I guess it’s hard to say, right? Is it actually good, or is it just... bad? Or maybe it falls into that weird "so bad it's good" category? I don't know, it's such a toss-up!

On a super basic level, I mean, if someone tells you a story about some kid who accidentally set their apartment on fire, or even just a story about being a really solid friend... honestly, just reading stuff like that gives you these little insights you wouldn't normally stumble upon. Or, I guess, maybe it just reinforces things you already kind of suspected? It’s like, it adds this extra layer to how you see things, you know?
It’s honestly such a massive effect when an entire group—like a whole class or a specific squad—goes through reading the same thing together. I mean, I guess it just hits different when everyone is on that same wavelength at once!
And, I guess, that kind of thing just happens with all those other types of cognition I was just listing, you know? It’s like... yeah, it really does apply to everything else too!

There’s actually one more thing to consider here, I guess... it’s about looking at how we study an era through its actual "period literature" rather than just focusing on individual points or isolated pieces. It’s more about seeing the whole landscape of what was being written back then, you know? You get to see this massive evolution of thought unfolding, along with all these different stylistic approaches that define the time. Honestly, I really think being exposed to that broader perspective is such a positive thing!

urbantinker8 said:bravo!👍

Well, I'd say absolutely not.🤷

I mean, personally, I don't really find myself losing sleep over those few hours I spent grinding through math problems back in the day. It isn't like I have any lingering trauma or insomnia because of it; I was never particularly obsessed with the subject, though I suppose I understood everything just fine and cruised through the curriculum without much trouble, I guess.
The fact that I did it while being totally miserable—and that I have zero use for any of it now—is probably my own issue to deal with.
But honestly, I'm not exactly crying about it either.

Thanks so much! 😁

-Steve

Daniel Perez6 said:I actually have to disagree with you on this one.

Take these favorites, for example:
Raymond Chandler: Three in Brooklyn
unknown: The Long Run
unknown: Fear on Maple Street
unknown: The Hero.

Those were just some random examples, but I wouldn't go so far as to say people don't appreciate American literature.
Back in high school, we read Without the Third (by Milan Begović), and honestly, everyone loved it. We spent hours debating it in class. I later picked up his novel about Giga Barićev which is excellent. 😍

I've been following this thread for days now, and my take remains the same: the problem isn't really the reading list itself, it's how the material is actually taught in the classroom.😁

You really need to pick up Quartet and June in the trunk—trust me, you won't regret it.

Fruity, I followed that exact same path during my studies. Here in America, during this current decade.

I’ve also spent time working with high schoolers here in the States over the last few years, and frankly, it’s disheartening. There is a profound inability to apply basic skills learned in middle school to actual word problems. They lack fundamental life skills that should be second nature—skills they should have mastered by now, especially if they claim to be dedicated students. It’s even more striking when you look at how middle schoolers are treated; there is a constant, subtle undercurrent of bullying over trivial details that prevents them from seeing the big picture. I’ve been tracking our national standardized test scores since the US started participating in major international assessments, and the data tells a grim story: students aren't actually learning; they are just checking boxes to pass a quiz before immediately forgetting everything. Our national graduation exam results reflect this same decay. There is this hysterical obsession with chasing high averages—hitting those five-digit numbers—with absolutely zero regard for whether that average represents actual intelligence or true education. You see it in the parents, too. They lose their minds if their kid gets a D or a C, yet they stay silent when a child writes "I can't" instead of "I am unable," failing to address the literacy gap because they are too busy panicking over a letter grade.

The fact that certain unreachable teachers attend these so-called "professional development" seminars only to learn that traditional schooling is "obsolete" doesn't change the reality on the ground. The fact that they swallow such propaganda whole is just further proof of a systemic failure to teach critical thinking.

This is (to me 😁) super interesting.

So, how would we actually go about reviewing this?
Since they started implementing those PISA tests here in the States, what kind of trends have we been seeing?

And what’s the deal with the SATs—what do those scores actually tell us?

If the mods think there’s a better topic for us to dive into next (if this is getting a bit too focused on things outside the standard reading list for this 😁), I’d definitely be grateful!

-briskjackal5

Check out this thread; there are actually people here who disagree with the mainstream take on these tests. For instance, Mary Smith is pretty vocal about her criticisms regarding how they approach PISA—specifically how they interpret the data and pull conclusions without considering the broader context of the testing process.

Is a first grader actually expected to grasp what they’re reading and answer comprehension questions about a story?

I mean, look at the reading list for first grade: things like >, >, or even >...

Is it even normal for a parent to read these books *to* their kid, basically putting on a little theatrical performance while explaining everything? Of course, the kid remembers all the juicy details because of that, but then when they try to read on their own, they struggle to remember anything because they're just decoding the words mechanically without actually processing them.

And I'm not just talking about my own daughter here—I'm looking at two-thirds or more of the kids in her class where the parents are doing all the heavy lifting by reading the stories aloud. The whole point of these assignments is for the kid to nail those worksheet questions, right? But you can't do that if you don't actually retain the plot. They aren't using these books as a way to practice reading skills; they're just treating them as a way to get the answers. They could practice actual reading anytime with any book, but they aren't using this as a tool for reading comprehension.

Sometimes I catch myself wondering if I'm just old-fashioned or stuck in my ways for thinking this should be the kid's responsibility. Am I just making things harder for my child by insisting she does the work herself? Honestly, I feel like this way of "reading" is totally backwards, but it's so incredibly common—it's what everyone else is doing—that it makes me wonder if I'm the one who's losing my mind.

It’s really prevalent, even in the upper grades 😁

rowdypanther12 said:It’s really prevalent, even in the upper grades 😁

😲Which higher grades are we talking about here? Seriously, parents actually sit down and read required reading lists with their older kids? Man, I am clearly living under a rock when it comes to this stuff... I guess I'll eventually figure out how people actually handle school life for their kids. My little one is only in first grade, so I still have plenty of time to catch up on how this all works, haha.🙂

driftingheron70 said:😲Which higher grades are we talking about here? Seriously, parents actually sit down and read required reading lists with their older kids? Man, I am clearly living under a rock when it comes to this stuff... I guess I'll eventually figure out how people actually handle school life for their kids. My little one is only in first grade, so I still have plenty of time to catch up on how this all works, haha.🙂

Personally, I think that's way worse than slapping a kid, but hey, maybe I'm just not wired right...

Reading aloud to a kid who’s already figured out how to read themselves? Honestly, you’ve got to be kidding me, right?

rowdypanther12 said:It’s really prevalent, even in the upper grades 😁

What I’ve noticed in this subject is how parents step in to help kids hunt down shortcuts online—just looking for summaries or pre-packaged answers to whatever book they're supposed to be reading.

Glad the teacher catches on regularly. Last time, a bunch of them gave her the exact same answer to one question (Gulliver's Travels). It was completely wrong, just copied straight from some study guide site. 😁

Chris Grant3 said:Reading aloud to a kid who’s already figured out how to read themselves? Honestly, you’ve got to be kidding me, right?

You sure about that? Back when I was teaching freshman year, I had kids walking in who were still struggling to sound out basic words!!