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Student-teacher dynamics vs. parent-teacher dynamics

Started by Jessica Howard5 · · 👁 9 views · 874 replies

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Participants Jessica Howard5jadetinker85Andrew Rivera3Sarah James4Linda Price5Nicholas KingJason Ortiz5Peter Doyle2Charles Murphy6rowdypanther12wanderinggardener12Paul Wilson72urbantinker8copperheron18Sean FoxSusan JamesEmily Gonzalez51James Perez54Karen Rodriguez3Kate Cox2rustydrifter10nimblelynx7Karen Richardson3copperpuma11 …
Jessica Howard5 Jessica Howard5 Active MemberOP
74 messages
joined Feb 2012
#41 ·
I don't know what to tell you. Just facts. No fluff. Expect more from me later. kaže:
So that's why I'm asking—what can we actually do as parents? Am I just being delusional if I think we can get anything out of these school outbursts?
Maybe we should start an association? Something like that non-profit group out of DC that fights for better daycare conditions.
So, what's the plan? We just going to spam our local government offices with boring emails every single day?
What?

I really wish I could actually do something—even just try to change things up. Instead of taking the path of least resistance and eventually snapping at my kid with a "just sit down and shut up," which I know deep down is total garbage parenting. Both as a parent and an educator, I know better. 🤷🙂

I’m with everything you wrote, especially that one specific point. Honestly, fighting this feels like tilting at windmills. But I’ve already started taking action on my own level—specifically regarding the microclimate around my kids. I started a blog to document exactly what's happening at our local elementary school. I’ve made a commitment to call out every single issue that comes to light. It’s my way of protesting the principal and the administration for failing to do their jobs. On top of that, I’m pushing for standardized textbooks across all elementary schools so every kid gets the same quality of education. Now, I might actually have some leverage: my brother-in-law just got elected to Congress, and since he’s from the education sector, he’s pretty much on the same page as me.
P.S. I'm sending you a DM. Give it some thought before you get back to me.
Charles Murphy6 Charles Murphy6 Active Member
118 messages
joined Dec 2011
#42 ·
What you’re saying holds water, and honestly, everyone needs to step up and take action because change is actually possible; I mean, I personally managed to shake things up at my kid’s school, and I was genuinely floored by how much progress we actually made.
That said, the Department of Education is an absolute circus right now—it’s a complete mess where nobody seems to know who’s in charge or what they’re even doing—and unfortunately, it feels like they’re way too preoccupied with their own internal chaos to actually help anyone else.
As for your idea about starting a blog to call out these school issues... hmm...
I don't want to scare you off, but if you publish a blog like that in your local community and start naming specific teachers—which isn't hard to do when you mention certain grades or kids, since everyone will immediately know who you're talking about—well, anything could happen.
At the very least, you’re looking at defamation lawsuits, and unless you have ironclad evidence and a rock-solid foundation for every single claim you make, you're playing with fire.
I remember this one case involving a school where someone started a blog about the environment there, and it went south incredibly fast because everything was based on mere hearsay and they ended up dragging the children into the spotlight.
I strongly advise against going down that path.
Everyone has every right to speak their mind—and I’m certainly not trying to silence you or defend the status quo—but please, be extremely careful about what you put in writing and ensure you have the facts to back it up, regardless of how much support you think you have behind you.
Peter Doyle2 Peter Doyle2 Active Member
170 messages
joined May 2012
#43 ·
It seems like everything in America always boils down to the same thing—constant complaining and being dissatisfied with every little detail...
But when it actually comes time to get specific or take action, most people just back away.
That’s just how it is. When it comes to the school system, we've seen this pattern play out countless times. Before and after a PTA meeting, every parent will nod along and pretend to agree with our views, but the moment someone needs to speak up clearly and firmly during the actual meeting, everyone suddenly finds something else to nitpick, like cracks in the wall.☕

That's why I think forming some kind of association would be a great idea... if nothing else, it might force people to take us more seriously. Posting on forums and blogs doesn't really move the needle for anyone.

Kohortas, I don't mean to discourage you—your blog is already a step in the right direction—but it’s far from enough. And you should probably consider what Peter Doyle2 mentioned; she really does know her stuff. I'll send you a DM tomorrow to discuss further.🙂 Heading to bed now.
Sarah James4 Sarah James4 Active Member
102 messages
joined Dec 2012
#44 ·
Peter Doyle2 said:I pulled out a few key points from soks's post that I think are vital!

So, what is the biggest issue with our education system?
Sit down, listen, write, go home, memorize what was written. 🧐

It’s a completely, totally wrong approach 🙂 and, naturally, the root of all frustration.

Passive learning. It's bad. Learning should be active.

I am a Preschool educator, and even back in college, they constantly hammered this phrase into us: "children learn by doing."

The Preschool system works in a way where almost all frontal instruction has been phased out; there isn't that constant group gathering on the rug for storytime anymore.

The key is creating an engaging environment—meaning, we design tools for them to work with, spread them around the room, and then observe their play. We enrich those resources and add new content based on their specific interests. Children work freely, without being forced, in small groups, doing what they want to do.
They learn by doing.

And then, after six years of that approach in Preschool, those kids enter elementary school.
Where they MUST sit in a desk for 45 minutes, quietly, in silence, in the exact same spot.
Where they MUST do everything the rest of the class is doing.
Where they MUST listen to a teacher standing at the front of the room—purely lecture-based.

Is it just me, or does this seem like a massive disconnect that leads straight into frustration? 🤔

Let's go back to the beginning.
Children learn by doing.

Is it really that hard to mirror that in the school system? Is it truly that difficult to make teaching active? To give kids concrete problems, tasks, or projects—things where they actually participate and have to hunt for data themselves?
Presentations and reports are good things, but I get the feeling they still aren't being utilized to their full potential.
And for many things, you don't even need huge funding. You simply split the class into groups and let each group extract key information from a specific part of the day's lesson, then present it to the rest of the class. For example...

It's doable in almost any subject.

Sure, there are teachers who try to work this way. But I get the impression they are still deeeeeeply in the minority.

***

My child is still very young. Only 6 months old. But even now, I feel a sense of dread when I think about them having to lug a heavy backpack in six and a half years to an institution called "school" that is uninspiring and completely unsuited for active learning. Especially since they'll be coming from a different type of institution—Preschool—where things operate on a totally different principle. 🙄

So I'm wondering, what can we do as parents? Am I being naive if I think we can actually achieve something?
Maybe organize some kind of association? (Like how there's an organization like "Preschool for All" that fights for better conditions in Preschools.)
Should we send annoying emails to the Department of Education on a daily basis?
What?

I really wish I could do something, or at least try to change things... instead of taking the path of least resistance one day and telling my kid, "Just sit down and cram," when I know perfectly well that's a bad way to go, both as a parent and as an educator.🤷🙂

Elementary classrooms need rugs too. They should be surrounded by bookshelves and practice reading aloud regularly. The rug shouldn't just be a preschool thing.

Then people will wonder why kids can't read by a certain grade level.🙄
Sarah James4 Sarah James4 Active Member
102 messages
joined Dec 2012
#45 ·
Jessica Howard5 said:Greetings to New York City, and specifically to you.
Thanks for the deep dive into how your kid's school works. It helps people realize they don't need to reinvent the wheel; sometimes you just need to learn from those who've actually succeeded in making a school feel like a second home. Of course, I'm emphasizing the "private school" aspect here—the owner definitely cares about that school rating.
My little niece goes to a very similar school in Chicago (it's owned by a Jewish foundation) following an English curriculum. She takes classes in both English and American parallelly.

Wishing you lots of luck and success. Best regards.

Please.🙂

I think we have to clear one hurdle you mentioned first... that school should be a second home. Honestly, I feel like that's already happening to some degree, thanks to the sheer dedication of individual teachers working within the system.

Maybe try applying the "in loco parentis" doctrine. It treats schools as legal stand-ins for parents during those 6 to 8 hours kids spend in class every day. This shouldn't just be a vague idea; it needs to be a serious legal standard. Znachi, the school would hold the same rights and responsibilities as a biological parent while the child is on campus.

We need to find a way to identify people who aren't pulling their weight or contributing to the bottom line. It’s time to let them go. We should focus on hiring top-tier talent instead—people who actually deliver results and get rewarded for it. We have to fix this negative selection problem in the system.

Znachi needs to find a way to put education back at the top of the priority list.
Jessica Howard5 Jessica Howard5 Active MemberOP
74 messages
joined Feb 2012
#46 ·
River, thanks for the advice and the heads-up. Look, I know exactly what I'm doing and how I'm saying it. I'm not dropping names, and I'm definitely not naming kids. The whole point of this blog is to let the people who need to see this recognize themselves. It’s also a signal for the people who get paid to sit at their desks all day—you know, the ones whose primary job is stocking toilet paper, ordering toner, setting up insurance policies that you only hear about when you actually need them, or running errands for entrepreneurial parents. Based on that, there isn't a legal leg to stand on here. As for the FBI, I wasn't planning on involving them for this specific purpose. But if it comes down to forming an association? Yeah, I'll be calling them any time of the day or night.
And if they try to sue me? Well, you can find Happy Goose in Las Vegas—first flight out, doesn't matter which one.
Charles Murphy6 Charles Murphy6 Active Member
118 messages
joined Dec 2011
#47 ·
I really ought to scroll back through this thread to see if you’ve linked your blog somewhere.
If you haven't, then please, by all means, let me know exactly what kind of rot is festering in your district.
From where I’m standing, I can tell you one thing for certain: donating to schools is strictly off-limits, whether you’re talking about cash or physical goods—it’s a total no-go.
It all stems from those massive gifting frenzies we used to see, back when publishing houses would basically hijack the system and hand out "gifts" just to ensure their specific brand was the one selected.
As for those insurance policies for the kids—let me lay out how this is actually supposed to work: toward the end of summer, the various insurance providers start sending out their offers.
They all get gathered up, the PTA is called to order, and they make the final call based on who offers the best rates.
I can say with absolute certainty that this year, State Farm had the most competitive terms for the greater Los Angeles area—just State Farm itself, without any of those shady third-party brokers that have started popping up everywhere lately...
So, I’m honestly at a loss—what exactly is the issue with insurance in your neck of the woods?
I sense a massive amount of resentment here, but frankly, a healthy dose of extreme caution is also required. Given what I mentioned in my previous post, even a mere hint of impropriety is enough to trigger an investigation; things tend to connect much faster than people realize.
I caught wind that you guys are moving forward as an association, using full names and identities. Brilliant.
I’d personally love to hear much more about that.🙂
Andrew Rivera3 Andrew Rivera3 Member
19 messages
joined Feb 2012
#48 ·
Charles Murphy6 said:
Is it really that much to ask to adapt our school system? Is it truly such an impossible task to make learning actually engaging? Why can't we just give these kids concrete problems to solve, actual projects to tackle—things where they have to roll up their sleeves, dig through data, and actually participate instead of just sitting there staring at a chalkboard?

I want to take a moment to give some much-needed credit to my daughter’s teacher. She’s in second grade, and right now they’re working on fairy tales and character studies—sort of like a simplified version of literature class.
The students are split into small groups, and each group tackles a different story. Every child plays a part. They aren't just reading, though; they get these specific prompts—questions they have to hunt for answers to—and they work together to draw conclusions by finding direct quotes from the text.
Honestly, I think it's brilliant. I gave her a story to read at home today, and she sat down and worked through those same prompts all by herself; I was actually stunned by how well she handled it. Even when it came to analyzing character traits, I found myself wondering, "Wait, who helped her with this?" And then it hit me—it was that collaborative teamwork they do in class. I am genuinely impressed.
They hold these thematic workshops quite often, and I truly believe this hands-on approach is going to give them a massive advantage across every single subject they study.

Sounds like a seriously awesome teacher🙂.
rowdypanther12 rowdypanther12 Regular
894 messages
joined Jul 2012
#49 ·
La luna, I am definitely joining you if you ever decide to start an association like that. 😁

Years ago, I watched this documentary about a private high school—I think it was run by someone like a local political figure—and everything I saw left me completely speechless.
It made me realize that even within our system, despite being tied down by strict curricula, it’s actually possible to make a school feel alive instead of just cramming dry facts into kids' heads.
I decided right then that if I had to take out a loan to send my child there, I would—even though they weren't even part of my five-year plan back then. 🤣
Maybe that report was a bit sensationalized and things aren't quite that perfect at that school, but if even 20% of it is true, it proves we can do better, even within the current regulations.

On the other hand, I also understand the teachers who eventually just give up. After years of fighting the system, dealing with administrators, struggling with budget cuts, and losing motivation alongside their students... it makes sense why some people just walk away.
Jessica Howard5 Jessica Howard5 Active MemberOP
74 messages
joined Feb 2012
#50 ·
So now we’re starting an association on this thread, haha. I'm all for the initiative and suggest we reach a deal.
I propose that Luna and River handle all the coordination. They seem to have the experience, the drive, and the will to get it done.
Let me know how I can help.
I'm in immediately.
Jessica Howard5 Jessica Howard5 Active MemberOP
74 messages
joined Feb 2012
#51 ·
Got a question for Charles Murphy6, since you're a lawyer who actually understands how the system works and knows what teachers are dealing with. We have this kid at our school who’s been a total nightmare since first grade—let's be real, he's just undisciplined. He’s in 6th grade now and things are spiraling. He’s gathered a little gang of five followers who follow his lead. They cause chaos during class, at recess, before school, after school, even at the local park. Just to give you some context: his mom is a pediatrician, and his dad is a coach for one of our top Olympic rowers. The dad plays tennis and has a cushy job at an agency in Chicago, whose director is currently hanging out in Brooklyn (he's a football referee). This kid is incredibly malicious and has fixated on one specific girl—he targets her constantly, though he bullies others too. The other day, he told this poor girl that her dad (who works for a major corporation and travels all the time, while her mom stays home) isn't actually traveling for work, but is instead paying for hotels to see a mistress and cheating on her mom. He also gives another kid the finger because of his last name (which sounds Eastern European), and he drags his five little minions into everything. The school hasn't done a damn thing. The teacher finally woke up after the whole 5th grade had to endure it, and started trying to talk to the parents of the kids being targeted. He started calling in the parents of the problematic kids, but now the situation has actually gotten worse. The kid has gone on the offensive and doesn't care where or when he harasses other students. To make matters worse, his dad rewards him by taking him to national team games—he even took him to Mexico for a handball tournament, which was pure hell...
What methods can actually stop this? Who is legally responsible for protecting the other kids in the school, and is there any way to actually get results? BTW, the kid's uncle sits on the School Board right in front of City Hall.
Charles Murphy6 Charles Murphy6 Active Member
118 messages
joined Dec 2011
#52 ·
Ugh, man. You’re dealing with an incredibly messy situation because of this "influential" dad, but honestly, the bigger headache is that School Board member who picks the principal—it’s painfully obvious the principal won't dare cross him. It's a given.
First off, you're wrong about one thing: a teacher shouldn't be the one constantly calling parents just to lecture them. Sure, maybe once, but if there's zero improvement in how these kids behave, the guidance department needs to step up and take the lead, because that is literally what they exist for.
Do these kids have bad grades too? I'm talking about that specific group of little bullies.
Standard procedure is for the school counselor or social worker to step in, but there's a catch—I need to double-check the specifics, then I'll get back to you.
If a kid is showing serious behavioral issues, they usually get sent for a full psychological evaluation, though I believe parental consent is required, which sounds like something you definitely won't get here.
So, what are your options?
Literally nothing but waiting for them to graduate middle school. In my opinion, our Children's Ombudsman is a lost cause. Your only real shot might be filing an anonymous report with Social Services, describing the students' behavior and requesting a welfare check on the family. You could also file a non-anonymous report, but that really depends on the individual handling it. Are you actually prepared to go head-to-head with the local big shots?
Unfortunately, sometimes you're just completely powerless.
In the past, we've moved kids like this to different schools entirely. We take these matters seriously. There are also specialized workshops designed specifically for problematic kids. For some, we even brought in teaching assistants to sit with them during class or monitor them during recess...
It looks totally ridiculous on paper, but it actually works.
It's hard to give you a straight answer, especially since you mentioned that specific School Board member.
You are in a real bind. Let me look into this a bit more and I'll follow up with you.
Jessica Howard5 Jessica Howard5 Active MemberOP
74 messages
joined Feb 2012
#53 ·
Look, the principal had a reelection a couple of months back, and he’s set for the next four years regardless.
The catch? One of the board members is his uncle, and the guy is deep in politics.
Honestly, the best move would be for the parents to pull their kids out and find a different school, but I think the real issue is this kid's dad. He lets him get away with everything—as long as he acts out, he gets rewarded with trips to London or Chicago.
I don't get the mom, though. She's a pediatrician, yet she does absolutely nothing. I doubt Social Services will step in either.
I'm worried things are going to blow up because some of these fathers are going to take matters into their own hands. One of them is just as influential socially, but he's pretty rough around the edges, so things could get ugly.
I'm no genius, but I feel bad for the kid. You can see him turning into a delinquent right before your eyes.
If they don't fix this by the end of the year, I bet at least six or seven kids from that class will demand a transfer to another school.
The principal is totally blind to the reputation he's building. It's the same story in other grades involving "well-connected" kids. You've got the son of a local tycoon from a massive corporation in Houston (8th grade), another tycoon's kid (7th grade), two sons of CEOs from major federal agencies (5th and 7th grade)... plus a bunch of "nobodies" hanging around them just to feel important. Typical. This is what happens when you have an "elite" school. It seems "elite" only refers to the families attending, not the actual education or how the students behave.
BTW thanks for the reply.
Andrew Rivera3 Andrew Rivera3 Member
19 messages
joined Feb 2012
#54 ·
I can't believe people are actually debating this... like, seriously? It's such a mess. says:
Every single day?


Man, that bag was weighing a solid 22 pounds yesterday. 😲 😲 😲They had a math teacher and five other subjects too.

Linda Price5 said:They’re absolutely delusional.


Yeah, it’s brutal. Just look at how much that bag weighed yesterday... ouch. 😢 🙄.

Jason Ortiz5 said:Is that a little bit of nervousness I sense because someone doesn't agree with YOUR plan? 😁

Personally, I think the idea about using lockers and just keeping the books at school is actually pretty decent. Of course, since it's always way harder to squeeze money out of the federal budget than it is to grab some cash from parents' pockets, I don't see that happening anytime soon.


That would be a killer idea for the cabinets.🙂😉They should just carry the books they actually need for homework—like maybe two workbooks, one textbook, and a notebook. They wouldn't be lugging stuff around like pack mules, and they still wouldn't be short on anything they need to learn.
wanderinggardener12 wanderinggardener12 Active Member
71 messages
joined Jun 2012
#55 ·
I find myself viewing this through two distinct lenses: that of a parent—with one child aged 4 and another at 20—and that of an educator. When my eldest was navigating the school system, I experienced the trials of being a parent of a student, and now, after twenty years in the classroom, I carry the weight of professional experience as well.

Backpacks
In my school, every student is assigned their own locker, yet they rarely utilize them in any meaningful way; more often than not, those lockers become catch-alls for everything except actual school supplies. Their backpacks are just as burdensome. In the English classes I teach, the students generally know what they need for the upcoming period, though about 80% of them still end up lugging everything to class regardless. For instance, if I tell them they’ll need their notebooks and workbooks for the next session, they’ll show up with the textbook and a reader as well.
On numerous occasions, I have looked into a child's bag only to find books for subjects they aren't even studying that day, alongside a chaotic assortment of other items: notebooks, toys, reading assignments from three months ago, geometry sets they haven't touched in weeks, old food and juice boxes, and crumpled, dirty gym clothes sitting right next to a perfectly clean set waiting to be worn.

Creative Pedagogy and Education
In a classroom of thirty students, it is nearly impossible to fully individualize every activity, yet many educators at my school strive to reach every single student, designing lessons where children actually *do* things rather than just sit there.
However, despite the presence of various NGOs, the national plan and program, and the national curriculum, the syllabus remains incredibly bloated. A teacher is constantly racing against the clock just to cover what is mandated.
The issue isn't necessarily the methods themselves, but the sheer lack of time. In an English curriculum, one should ideally focus on honing language competencies—speaking, listening, reading, and writing—not to mention developing functional literacy. Instead, a fifth grader is expected to master nine different parts of speech within the language block alone!
If a teacher insists on assigning projects, encouraging research, or incorporating game-based learning, there is simply no way they will meet the requirements set by the Department of Education and the school administration. The luxury of breaking the rules can only be afforded by someone eccentric enough to ignore the consequences or financially independent enough to not care about their career. If you don't follow the Department of Education's mandates, you're failing; if you do, you're also failing, because in the rush to finish the material, the children inevitably miss out on much more vital learning.

Political Influence
Neither parents nor teachers possess any real influence over the government, even though both parties care deeply about the outcome.
Education is often treated as the last priority in the budget. It seems this society is only interested in money—and specifically, fast money with minimal investment. Education doesn't offer quick returns; it takes ten or twenty years for a generation to truly mature, so investing in schooling cannot be presented as an immediate profit in today's currency.

Parents
There will be no progress until parents realize that school isn't just a daycare center where they can drop off their kids while they work—hoping to avoid dealing with them both during the workday and at home. There will be no change until they understand that, much like any other business, you have to invest if you want results; for example, supporting smaller class sizes to ensure better outcomes. It won't happen until it becomes clear that $400 the annual cost for textbooks amounts to $33 per month—money some people blow on cigarettes in five days—or until they recognize that teachers who educate and raise their children work eight hours or more, not just the five hours spent inside the classroom.
Furthermore, the relationship between parents and schools won't improve until some realize that the school isn't solely responsible for raising a child. Many parents aren't willing to take accountability for their own upbringing of their children. It is far easier to blame the school for failures in parenting: if the child is aggressive, it’s the school's fault; if they are anti-social, it’s the school; if the child is unhappy, no one thinks to spend a few weeks actually playing with them or ensuring the parents aren't constantly at each other's throats at home. If a child is "lazy," spoiled, or combative, they'll claim it's the school's doing, rather than admitting it's the result of parents who are absent until 7:00 PM every night.

Teachers
They work for a paycheck, and after 20 years on the job—$1933. It’s a mistake to assume they only put in five hours a day. Making an assumption like that would be no different than trying to calculate the hourly rate of a judge or a lawyer by only counting the time they spend sitting in a courtroom.
A proper assessment of a teacher's workload should be conducted by people who actually possess the necessary competence and qualifications to understand what they're looking at. As for standardized testing—well, sure, if they decide to implement rigorous testing for every single public servant, and if I were given the chance to test everyone working in healthcare, law enforcement, administration, or the arts, then perhaps we could have a conversation.
Linda Price5 Linda Price5 Active Member
171 messages
joined May 2013
#56 ·
wanderinggardener12 said:I find myself viewing this through two distinct lenses: that of a parent—with one child aged 4 and another at 20—and that of an educator. When my eldest was navigating the school system, I experienced the trials of being a parent of a student, and now, after twenty years in the classroom, I carry the weight of professional experience as well.

Backpacks
In my school, every student is assigned their own locker, yet they rarely utilize them in any meaningful way; more often than not, those lockers become catch-alls for everything except actual school supplies. Their backpacks are just as burdensome. In the English classes I teach, the students generally know what they need for the upcoming period, though about 80% of them still end up lugging everything to class regardless. For instance, if I tell them they’ll need their notebooks and workbooks for the next session, they’ll show up with the textbook and a reader as well.
On numerous occasions, I have looked into a child's bag only to find books for subjects they aren't even studying that day, alongside a chaotic assortment of other items: notebooks, toys, reading assignments from three months ago, geometry sets they haven't touched in weeks, old food and juice boxes, and crumpled, dirty gym clothes sitting right next to a perfectly clean set waiting to be worn.

Creative Pedagogy and Education
In a classroom of thirty students, it is nearly impossible to fully individualize every activity, yet many educators at my school strive to reach every single student, designing lessons where children actually *do* things rather than just sit there.
However, despite the presence of various NGOs, the national plan and program, and the national curriculum, the syllabus remains incredibly bloated. A teacher is constantly racing against the clock just to cover what is mandated.
The issue isn't necessarily the methods themselves, but the sheer lack of time. In an English curriculum, one should ideally focus on honing language competencies—speaking, listening, reading, and writing—not to mention developing functional literacy. Instead, a fifth grader is expected to master nine different parts of speech within the language block alone!
If a teacher insists on assigning projects, encouraging research, or incorporating game-based learning, there is simply no way they will meet the requirements set by the Department of Education and the school administration. The luxury of breaking the rules can only be afforded by someone eccentric enough to ignore the consequences or financially independent enough to not care about their career. If you don't follow the Department of Education's mandates, you're failing; if you do, you're also failing, because in the rush to finish the material, the children inevitably miss out on much more vital learning.

Political Influence
Neither parents nor teachers possess any real influence over the government, even though both parties care deeply about the outcome.
Education is often treated as the last priority in the budget. It seems this society is only interested in money—and specifically, fast money with minimal investment. Education doesn't offer quick returns; it takes ten or twenty years for a generation to truly mature, so investing in schooling cannot be presented as an immediate profit in today's currency.

Parents
There will be no progress until parents realize that school isn't just a daycare center where they can drop off their kids while they work—hoping to avoid dealing with them both during the workday and at home. There will be no change until they understand that, much like any other business, you have to invest if you want results; for example, supporting smaller class sizes to ensure better outcomes. It won't happen until it becomes clear that $400 the annual cost for textbooks amounts to $33 per month—money some people blow on cigarettes in five days—or until they recognize that teachers who educate and raise their children work eight hours or more, not just the five hours spent inside the classroom.
Furthermore, the relationship between parents and schools won't improve until some realize that the school isn't solely responsible for raising a child. Many parents aren't willing to take accountability for their own upbringing of their children. It is far easier to blame the school for failures in parenting: if the child is aggressive, it’s the school's fault; if they are anti-social, it’s the school; if the child is unhappy, no one thinks to spend a few weeks actually playing with them or ensuring the parents aren't constantly at each other's throats at home. If a child is "lazy," spoiled, or combative, they'll claim it's the school's doing, rather than admitting it's the result of parents who are absent until 7:00 PM every night.

Teachers
They work for a paycheck, and after 20 years on the job—$1933. It’s a mistake to assume they only put in five hours a day. Making an assumption like that would be no different than trying to calculate the hourly rate of a judge or a lawyer by only counting the time they spend sitting in a courtroom.
A proper assessment of a teacher's workload should be conducted by people who actually possess the necessary competence and qualifications to understand what they're looking at. As for standardized testing—well, sure, if they decide to implement rigorous testing for every single public servant, and if I were given the chance to test everyone working in healthcare, law enforcement, administration, or the arts, then perhaps we could have a conversation.

If we’re okay with incompetence in the police force, why shouldn't we be okay with teachers who don't actually know their subject matter? Is it acceptable for people teaching computer science to barely understand what a desktop computer even is?😁
wanderinggardener12 wanderinggardener12 Active Member
71 messages
joined Jun 2012
#57 ·
Linda Price5 said:If we’re okay with incompetence in the police force, why shouldn't we be okay with teachers who don't actually know their subject matter? Is it acceptable for people teaching computer science to barely understand what a desktop computer even is?😁

It bothers me, quite significantly, when a computer science instructor lacks a basic grasp of what a desktop entails. In such an instance, the school district superintendent should—prompted by a report from a principal or a concerned parent—take decisive action. Furthermore, if these claims are indeed true, shouldn't every professor who signed off on that individual's passing grade be forced to question their own judgment?
That doesn't, however, imply that anyone possessing a rudimentary understanding of a desktop suddenly gains the authority to oversee faculty or lecture staff at a public school.

I find this comparison to law enforcement rather perplexing. What possible connection is there between the two? There are competent officers and there are incompetent ones, just as there are competent teachers and incompetent ones. And believe me, the latter bothers me just as much as the former.
Paul Wilson72 Paul Wilson72 Member
40 messages
joined Mar 2012
#58 ·
Linda Price5 said:If we’re okay with incompetence in the police force, why shouldn't we be okay with teachers who don't actually know their subject matter? Is it acceptable for people teaching computer science to barely understand what a desktop computer even is?😁

Of course this is an issue, especially when we are talking about computer science and IT-related subjects. I don't want to offend those who graduated from education programs, but despite having a degree in information technology, many of them lack any real practical connection to the field. You can see it immediately in how they handle basic software like Microsoft Office, let alone teaching complex concepts in high school. On the other hand, look at the motivation levels. A computer science teacher or a tech instructor isn't given the same incentive compared to other professors, even though they have to stay current with constant updates. For them, learning never stops; you can't just walk into a classroom and coast until retirement. Compare that to math, physics, or English. In those subjects, the core curriculum hasn't fundamentally shifted in decades—not even centuries. Books exist in every possible format, and lesson plans are readily available whenever needed. Tech is a different beast entirely.
Buying computers usually just means more work on your plate. You have to deal with constant troubleshooting, system maintenance, and endless technical support. It’s a lot of extra labor that nobody actually wants to pay for, yet everyone expects you to just handle it.
The bottom line here comes down to market value. Most tech professionals are going to choose private sector roles where they actually get paid what they’re worth, rather than taking positions in public schools where their skills are constantly undervalued. As the national economy improves, this gap is only going to widen because nobody with this specific skillset wants to work in a classroom. We shouldn't be shocked when we find ourselves in a situation where computer science is being taught by someone who doesn't even understand how a basic desktop functions. So, let me ask you: how much are you actually willing to pay for someone who truly knows what they're doing?

Actually, @buditedobro, I couldn't agree more. Signed. 🙏
Jason Ortiz5 Jason Ortiz5 Regular
325 messages
joined Mar 2025
#59 ·
wanderinggardener12 said:I find myself viewing this through two distinct lenses: that of a parent—with one child aged 4 and another at 20—and that of an educator. When my eldest was navigating the school system, I experienced the trials of being a parent of a student, and now, after twenty years in the classroom, I carry the weight of professional experience as well.

Backpacks
In my school, every student is assigned their own locker, yet they rarely utilize them in any meaningful way; more often than not, those lockers become catch-alls for everything except actual school supplies. Their backpacks are just as burdensome. In the English classes I teach, the students generally know what they need for the upcoming period, though about 80% of them still end up lugging everything to class regardless. For instance, if I tell them they’ll need their notebooks and workbooks for the next session, they’ll show up with the textbook and a reader as well.
On numerous occasions, I have looked into a child's bag only to find books for subjects they aren't even studying that day, alongside a chaotic assortment of other items: notebooks, toys, reading assignments from three months ago, geometry sets they haven't touched in weeks, old food and juice boxes, and crumpled, dirty gym clothes sitting right next to a perfectly clean set waiting to be worn.

Creative Pedagogy and Education
In a classroom of thirty students, it is nearly impossible to fully individualize every activity, yet many educators at my school strive to reach every single student, designing lessons where children actually *do* things rather than just sit there.
However, despite the presence of various NGOs, the national plan and program, and the national curriculum, the syllabus remains incredibly bloated. A teacher is constantly racing against the clock just to cover what is mandated.
The issue isn't necessarily the methods themselves, but the sheer lack of time. In an English curriculum, one should ideally focus on honing language competencies—speaking, listening, reading, and writing—not to mention developing functional literacy. Instead, a fifth grader is expected to master nine different parts of speech within the language block alone!
If a teacher insists on assigning projects, encouraging research, or incorporating game-based learning, there is simply no way they will meet the requirements set by the Department of Education and the school administration. The luxury of breaking the rules can only be afforded by someone eccentric enough to ignore the consequences or financially independent enough to not care about their career. If you don't follow the Department of Education's mandates, you're failing; if you do, you're also failing, because in the rush to finish the material, the children inevitably miss out on much more vital learning.

Political Influence
Neither parents nor teachers possess any real influence over the government, even though both parties care deeply about the outcome.
Education is often treated as the last priority in the budget. It seems this society is only interested in money—and specifically, fast money with minimal investment. Education doesn't offer quick returns; it takes ten or twenty years for a generation to truly mature, so investing in schooling cannot be presented as an immediate profit in today's currency.

Parents
There will be no progress until parents realize that school isn't just a daycare center where they can drop off their kids while they work—hoping to avoid dealing with them both during the workday and at home. There will be no change until they understand that, much like any other business, you have to invest if you want results; for example, supporting smaller class sizes to ensure better outcomes. It won't happen until it becomes clear that $400 the annual cost for textbooks amounts to $33 per month—money some people blow on cigarettes in five days—or until they recognize that teachers who educate and raise their children work eight hours or more, not just the five hours spent inside the classroom.
Furthermore, the relationship between parents and schools won't improve until some realize that the school isn't solely responsible for raising a child. Many parents aren't willing to take accountability for their own upbringing of their children. It is far easier to blame the school for failures in parenting: if the child is aggressive, it’s the school's fault; if they are anti-social, it’s the school; if the child is unhappy, no one thinks to spend a few weeks actually playing with them or ensuring the parents aren't constantly at each other's throats at home. If a child is "lazy," spoiled, or combative, they'll claim it's the school's doing, rather than admitting it's the result of parents who are absent until 7:00 PM every night.

Teachers
They work for a paycheck, and after 20 years on the job—$1933. It’s a mistake to assume they only put in five hours a day. Making an assumption like that would be no different than trying to calculate the hourly rate of a judge or a lawyer by only counting the time they spend sitting in a courtroom.
A proper assessment of a teacher's workload should be conducted by people who actually possess the necessary competence and qualifications to understand what they're looking at. As for standardized testing—well, sure, if they decide to implement rigorous testing for every single public servant, and if I were given the chance to test everyone working in healthcare, law enforcement, administration, or the arts, then perhaps we could have a conversation.

Has any educator actually taken the time to explain to these kids how lockers work and how to actually stay organized? Or did everyone just point at them once, turn their backs, and think, "Whatever, not my problem, onto the next one"?

Also, expecting a bunch of teenagers to keep their lockers tidy isn't exactly high-level professional expectation for an educator. 🤷

Parents
Until parents realize that school isn't just a daycare where they can drop their kids off while they work (and hopefully not worry about them at home either), nothing changes. It’s like any other business—you have to invest if you want results, like funding smaller class sizes. Until they see that $400 a year's worth of textbooks costs roughly $33 a month—which some people blow through in five days on cigarettes—or until they understand that teachers who educate and mentor these kids are working 8+ hours, not just the 5 hours spent in the classroom, there won't be any progress.
There won't be any shift in the parent-school relationship until some folks realize the school isn't solely responsible for raising their child. A lot of parents just aren't ready to take ownership of their parenting. It’s way easier to blame the school for everything: the kid is aggressive? School's fault. The kid is anti-social? School's fault. If the kid is unhappy, nobody thinks to spend a few weeks actually playing with them or fixing the constant fighting between parents at home. If a kid is "lazy," spoiled, or combative, it’s always the school's issue, never the job of the parent who’s out of the house until 7 PM every night.

The vast majority of parents who are gone for 14 hours a day because of work aren't doing it to avoid their kids; they’re forced to by necessity. An educator who can't or won't look objectively at the reality of our society—which is reflected directly in the family unit—probably picked the wrong profession.

Teachers
They work for a paycheck, maybe 20 years in the field— $1933. They don't just work 5 hours a day. Judging them like that is like judging a judge or a lawyer based only on the hours they spend in a courtroom.
I think teacher evaluations would be totally fine if they were actually handled by people who know what they’re doing. As for testing? Sure, maybe, once they start testing all public servants. I'd love to see them test everyone in healthcare, the police, local government, or even the arts departments.

Look, teachers are working in a country where a ton of parents are basically pulling half-pay shifts just to get by. Until educators realize they aren't going to see a raise unless those working parents actually have more money to contribute to the federal budget, we’re never going to see a healthy economic balance.

If we’re going to evaluate everyone's performance, it needs to be done by qualified experts—not just colleagues who are all part of the same circle trying to protect their own interests. Evaluation has to be competent, sure, but it also has to be objective. All that other stuff you're bringing up, comparing this group to that group... honestly, it just sounds like political noise to me. 🤷
urbantinker8 urbantinker8 Regular
759 messages
joined Jan 2023
#60 ·
Jason Ortiz5 said:Has any educator actually taken the time to explain to these kids how lockers work and how to actually stay organized? Or did everyone just point at them once, turn their backs, and think, "Whatever, not my problem, onto the next one"?

Also, expecting a bunch of teenagers to keep their lockers tidy isn't exactly high-level professional expectation for an educator. 🤷

Parents
Until parents realize that school isn't just a daycare where they can drop their kids off while they work (and hopefully not worry about them at home either), nothing changes. It’s like any other business—you have to invest if you want results, like funding smaller class sizes. Until they see that $400 a year's worth of textbooks costs roughly $33 a month—which some people blow through in five days on cigarettes—or until they understand that teachers who educate and mentor these kids are working 8+ hours, not just the 5 hours spent in the classroom, there won't be any progress.
There won't be any shift in the parent-school relationship until some folks realize the school isn't solely responsible for raising their child. A lot of parents just aren't ready to take ownership of their parenting. It’s way easier to blame the school for everything: the kid is aggressive? School's fault. The kid is anti-social? School's fault. If the kid is unhappy, nobody thinks to spend a few weeks actually playing with them or fixing the constant fighting between parents at home. If a kid is "lazy," spoiled, or combative, it’s always the school's issue, never the job of the parent who’s out of the house until 7 PM every night.

The vast majority of parents who are gone for 14 hours a day because of work aren't doing it to avoid their kids; they’re forced to by necessity. An educator who can't or won't look objectively at the reality of our society—which is reflected directly in the family unit—probably picked the wrong profession.

Teachers
They work for a paycheck, maybe 20 years in the field— $1933. They don't just work 5 hours a day. Judging them like that is like judging a judge or a lawyer based only on the hours they spend in a courtroom.
I think teacher evaluations would be totally fine if they were actually handled by people who know what they’re doing. As for testing? Sure, maybe, once they start testing all public servants. I'd love to see them test everyone in healthcare, the police, local government, or even the arts departments.

Look, teachers are working in a country where a ton of parents are basically pulling half-pay shifts just to get by. Until educators realize they aren't going to see a raise unless those working parents actually have more money to contribute to the federal budget, we’re never going to see a healthy economic balance.

If we’re going to evaluate everyone's performance, it needs to be done by qualified experts—not just colleagues who are all part of the same circle trying to protect their own interests. Evaluation has to be competent, sure, but it also has to be objective. All that other stuff you're bringing up, comparing this group to that group... honestly, it just sounds like political noise to me. 🤷

Well, I guess the question is, what exactly is an educator supposed to do in your view? Are they meant to somehow compensate for an absent parent for every single one of the thirty kids in a classroom? And then you multiply that by five or six grades per teacher.🤷
I mean, am I supposed to provide a high-quality education, handle all the moral upbringing, and simultaneously offer all the care, love, and attention that a parent simply can't give due to the circumstances?
That sounds like the exact kind of broken system you're talking about—sort of a "not my problem, go ask someone else" approach.😉
Despite everything I try to do, I just can't—and honestly, I'm not even sure why I would attempt to—make up for the lack of parental presence for every child in my care.
And it’s funny, in a way, how many parents actually seem to expect me to do just that.😉

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