Elementary school teachers

Jason Ortiz5 said:Good grief... 🤦

Look, nobody’s saying crazy, aggressive, or totally unhinged parents don't exist. But the way people talk about it makes it sound like being a high school history teacher is actually more dangerous than being a soldier deployed in Afghanistan.

My mother-in-law actually admitted that even in her 40s, she’s only had a handful of real conflicts with her own parents. And that’s over her entire lifetime. Mind you, this woman is basically the gold medalist of playing the victim and complaining about every little thing under the sun.

🤷

I know a math teacher at a local business school in Chicago very well. Every single year, there's some kind of drama. Yet, she remains principled and refuses to give anyone a passing grade they haven't earned.

Oh, sure, I'm just a coward. If some random guy burst into my classroom with a hand grenade, I highly doubt I’d be second-guessing whether or not to give a student a better grade next time.
Then again—that's partly why I didn't go into teaching. 😁

copperheron18 said:Look, there is a massive gap between what happened 30 or 40 years ago and what is happening today; any rational person can see that. Back in the day, a professor was highly respected—a doctor was even more so. People used to bring gifts (bribes, let's call them 😁) because those professions were held in the highest esteem. You had the elite tier: the teacher, the doctor, the lawyer. You simply cannot compare the past to the present while my sister-in-law is working now. So much has shifted in the interim—economic instability, social shifts—which has left many people on edge, causing them to lash out at anyone within reach. The current state of society is just different, and while it affects teachers heavily because they deal with such diverse groups, it isn't limited to them.

It is not the same thing to be a teacher at a prestigious prep school where the kids are decent, actually want to learn, pay attention, care about their grades, and come from educated, cultured families. It's an entirely different universe compared to teaching at a three-year vocational school populated mostly by delinquents who lack basic vocabulary, manners, or any sense of decorum.

Middle schools are essentially a volatile mix of both extremes, and no one can dispute that. Being a teacher at a top-tier academy (specifically the one I attended, though many others are similar) is, in my opinion, a fantastic career. But being a teacher at some vocational school (I won't name names to avoid offense) is 🙂

That bolded part? Total nonsense. Honestly, working at private schools is way worse. You’ve got parents dropping insane amounts of cash thinking their kids are absolute geniuses gifted by Bill Gates—even when they’re total idiots. Teachers basically have to look the other way while everyone expects an easy A just because of the tuition. My friends used to work at elite prep schools, and one of them told me about this fancy academy where she literally had to hand-deliver books to the kids in the library. I mean, why would they ever walk to the library themselves, right? And don't give me that line about all these families being "cultured" or "educated." Most of the people funding these private academies are just nouveau riche types or shady business owners who suddenly found money. They couldn't tell you anything about actual culture if their lives depended on it.

Eric Rogers17 said:That bolded part? Total nonsense. Honestly, working at private schools is way worse. You’ve got parents dropping insane amounts of cash thinking their kids are absolute geniuses gifted by Bill Gates—even when they’re total idiots. Teachers basically have to look the other way while everyone expects an easy A just because of the tuition. My friends used to work at elite prep schools, and one of them told me about this fancy academy where she literally had to hand-deliver books to the kids in the library. I mean, why would they ever walk to the library themselves, right? And don't give me that line about all these families being "cultured" or "educated." Most of the people funding these private academies are just nouveau riche types or shady business owners who suddenly found money. They couldn't tell you anything about actual culture if their lives depended on it.

I think when people say "prestigious high schools," they aren't talking about private institutions—they mean the top-tier public schools that are notoriously hard to get into and produce the best results. Think places like Stuyvesant or Bronx Science in New York.

Nancy Cruz3 said:I think when people say "prestigious high schools," they aren't talking about private institutions—they mean the top-tier public schools that are notoriously hard to get into and produce the best results. Think places like Stuyvesant or Bronx Science in New York.

If that's the case, sure, but I still don't see why their parents automatically have to be more educated or cultured than kids going to vocational schools. Right?

Nancy Cruz3 said:I think when people say "prestigious high schools," they aren't talking about private institutions—they mean the top-tier public schools that are notoriously hard to get into and produce the best results. Think places like Stuyvesant or Bronx Science in New York.

Exactly... I have no idea when private schools suddenly became the gold standard for prestige and quality (aside from the price tag required to walk through the doors🙄).

I was thinking specifically of places like Lincoln High, Roosevelt, or even some of the elite magnet schools.
Working there is actually quite pleasant, provided you know how to hold your ground and manage your curriculum effectively; it's smooth sailing. But as for the private sector? Honestly, it's a nightmare. You're dealing with a crowd of entitled elites who lack any real substance yet act like they're the smartest people in the room simply because they have deep pockets. It's the delusion that money can buy both an A+ and actual intelligence.

copperheron18 said:Look, there is a massive gap between what happened 30 or 40 years ago and what is happening today; any rational person can see that. Back in the day, a professor was highly respected—a doctor was even more so. People used to bring gifts (bribes, let's call them 😁) because those professions were held in the highest esteem. You had the elite tier: the teacher, the doctor, the lawyer. You simply cannot compare the past to the present while my sister-in-law is working now. So much has shifted in the interim—economic instability, social shifts—which has left many people on edge, causing them to lash out at anyone within reach. The current state of society is just different, and while it affects teachers heavily because they deal with such diverse groups, it isn't limited to them.

It is not the same thing to be a teacher at a prestigious prep school where the kids are decent, actually want to learn, pay attention, care about their grades, and come from educated, cultured families. It's an entirely different universe compared to teaching at a three-year vocational school populated mostly by delinquents who lack basic vocabulary, manners, or any sense of decorum.

Middle schools are essentially a volatile mix of both extremes, and no one can dispute that. Being a teacher at a top-tier academy (specifically the one I attended, though many others are similar) is, in my opinion, a fantastic career. But being a teacher at some vocational school (I won't name names to avoid offense) is 🙂

Forgive me, I know I’m drifting off-topic here, but which specific high school are we talking about, and is the same instructor still teaching English? I suspect there are people in this group who actually give a damn about their children graduating with even a modicum of literacy.

Eric Rogers17 said:If that's the case, sure, but I still don't see why their parents automatically have to be more educated or cultured than kids going to vocational schools. Right?

Well, I'm not sure. I don't think they have to be.
I was simply pointing out that when copperheron18 mentioned "prestigious schools," she likely meant private academies.

copperheron18 said:Look, there is a massive gap between what happened 30 or 40 years ago and what is happening today; any rational person can see that. Back in the day, a professor was highly respected—a doctor was even more so. People used to bring gifts (bribes, let's call them 😁) because those professions were held in the highest esteem. You had the elite tier: the teacher, the doctor, the lawyer. You simply cannot compare the past to the present while my sister-in-law is working now. So much has shifted in the interim—economic instability, social shifts—which has left many people on edge, causing them to lash out at anyone within reach. The current state of society is just different, and while it affects teachers heavily because they deal with such diverse groups, it isn't limited to them.

It is not the same thing to be a teacher at a prestigious prep school where the kids are decent, actually want to learn, pay attention, care about their grades, and come from educated, cultured families. It's an entirely different universe compared to teaching at a three-year vocational school populated mostly by delinquents who lack basic vocabulary, manners, or any sense of decorum.

Middle schools are essentially a volatile mix of both extremes, and no one can dispute that. Being a teacher at a top-tier academy (specifically the one I attended, though many others are similar) is, in my opinion, a fantastic career. But being a teacher at some vocational school (I won't name names to avoid offense) is 🙂

Look, it’s not like everyone in vocational schools is a thug, and it's certainly not true that every kid in a prep school is a perfect little model student. For me, what really matters is who is standing at the front of the classroom and how they approach teaching my kids. When I was picking out an elementary school, I looked closely at their track record and found out that some of their teachers even help write the actual textbooks used across the country. And that isn't just any random school; they have real substance. Honestly? I’d much rather send my child to a trade school where they might actually walk away with a solid grasp of grammar and spelling than send them to some "elite" academy only to have them come out more illiterate than a third grader. What's the point of a diploma if there's nothing behind it?

Linda Price5 said:Forgive me, I know I’m drifting off-topic here, but which specific high school are we talking about, and is the same instructor still teaching English? I suspect there are people in this group who actually give a damn about their children graduating with even a modicum of literacy.

When I'm posting on a forum, I don't obsess over grammar. It’s much like how I speak with my own family—there's simply no need to fret over sentence structure, whether I use "due to" or "because," or if I nail every syllable perfectly. I see no reason why my level of literacy should be up for debate on this board, especially since I'm typing quickly while juggling a dozen other responsibilities. Look, I shouldn't even have to defend myself, but in this specific instance, I felt compelled to. If my observations regarding the workload of teachers in public high schools versus vocational schools bothered you, then I apologize; however, the facts remain unchanged...

rustydrifter10 said:Look, it’s not like everyone in vocational schools is a thug, and it's certainly not true that every kid in a prep school is a perfect little model student. For me, what really matters is who is standing at the front of the classroom and how they approach teaching my kids. When I was picking out an elementary school, I looked closely at their track record and found out that some of their teachers even help write the actual textbooks used across the country. And that isn't just any random school; they have real substance. Honestly? I’d much rather send my child to a trade school where they might actually walk away with a solid grasp of grammar and spelling than send them to some "elite" academy only to have them come out more illiterate than a third grader. What's the point of a diploma if there's nothing behind it?

Of course that’s true—I’m speaking in broad strokes here, and there are always outliers. My neighbor teaches English to a mix of students: some from four-year high schools, some specialized computer science tracks, and others in three-year vocational programs like mechanics. In the prep school classes, everything is smooth sailing; they listen, they engage, they study. Most of the tech kids are similar, though perhaps a bit more distracted, but generally polite children. But those three-year vocational kids? She gets a literal knot in her throat before class. They are incredibly arrogant and disrespectful; they refuse to do any work, yet they'll throw a fit the moment they receive a failing grade they actually deserve.

She has made it clear time and again that forcing everyone into a traditional high school track is pointless. For many, it simply doesn't fit. What is the purpose of pushing everyone toward a diploma if there is absolutely no substance behind it?

copperheron18 said:Of course that’s true—I’m speaking in broad strokes here, and there are always outliers. My neighbor teaches English to a mix of students: some from four-year high schools, some specialized computer science tracks, and others in three-year vocational programs like mechanics. In the prep school classes, everything is smooth sailing; they listen, they engage, they study. Most of the tech kids are similar, though perhaps a bit more distracted, but generally polite children. But those three-year vocational kids? She gets a literal knot in her throat before class. They are incredibly arrogant and disrespectful; they refuse to do any work, yet they'll throw a fit the moment they receive a failing grade they actually deserve.

She has made it clear time and again that forcing everyone into a traditional high school track is pointless. For many, it simply doesn't fit. What is the purpose of pushing everyone toward a diploma if there is absolutely no substance behind it?

I couldn't agree more. 😢 Moderator, you surely recognize how incredibly frustrating this entire situation is for me, don't you? 😁

And honestly, what would you suggest we do with people who refuse to even finish high school—or your next-door neighbor, for that matter? Should the rest of us just foot an eightfold increase in our tax bills just so they can subsist on welfare?

Or perhaps you'd prefer to line them up in front of a firing squad?

Personally, I don't believe a high school diploma is a prerequisite for many career paths. I won't sit here and list every single profession where you don't need to know English, calculus, or even the chemical formula for ethanol. In those sectors, employers aren't actually looking at your schooling; they’re looking for a willingness to work. It reminds me of those recent articles floating around the internet about how nobody in America wants to be a ranch hand or work manual labor on highway construction projects during the summer. We end up having to import labor from overseas while our own unemployment numbers stay stubbornly high... anyway, I digress, but that was my thought process.

It is also an open secret among academics that getting a job in certain fields is significantly easier if you graduated from a prep school. Honestly, you practically need deep connections just to get a foot in the door. Take a high school classroom, for instance: if a teacher threatens a pop quiz, the room goes silent instantly. No student wants a 1 or a 2 dragging down their GPA. Unfortunately, in some schools, teachers can't even use those tactics because the kids simply don't care. They'll take a failing grade just to get the teacher off their back so they don't have to show up for summer school.☕

copperheron18 said:Personally, I don't believe a high school diploma is a prerequisite for many career paths. I won't sit here and list every single profession where you don't need to know English, calculus, or even the chemical formula for ethanol. In those sectors, employers aren't actually looking at your schooling; they’re looking for a willingness to work. It reminds me of those recent articles floating around the internet about how nobody in America wants to be a ranch hand or work manual labor on highway construction projects during the summer. We end up having to import labor from overseas while our own unemployment numbers stay stubbornly high... anyway, I digress, but that was my thought process.

It is also an open secret among academics that getting a job in certain fields is significantly easier if you graduated from a prep school. Honestly, you practically need deep connections just to get a foot in the door. Take a high school classroom, for instance: if a teacher threatens a pop quiz, the room goes silent instantly. No student wants a 1 or a 2 dragging down their GPA. Unfortunately, in some schools, teachers can't even use those tactics because the kids simply don't care. They'll take a failing grade just to get the teacher off their back so they don't have to show up for summer school.☕

Please tell me you aren't a teacher.🙂

feralmoose4 said:Please tell me you aren't a teacher.🙂

Why is that?😁

No, I am not a professor (thank goodness), though I could certainly go on forever debating the quality of education, the faculty, high schools, or even universities themselves.🤣

It likely stems from being surrounded by professors—family, friends, acquaintances—combined with my habit of constantly comparing my own experiences in school and college with others. Through exchanging those perspectives, I've arrived at certain conclusions...

copperheron18 said:Personally, I don't believe a high school diploma is a prerequisite for many career paths. I won't sit here and list every single profession where you don't need to know English, calculus, or even the chemical formula for ethanol. In those sectors, employers aren't actually looking at your schooling; they’re looking for a willingness to work. It reminds me of those recent articles floating around the internet about how nobody in America wants to be a ranch hand or work manual labor on highway construction projects during the summer. We end up having to import labor from overseas while our own unemployment numbers stay stubbornly high... anyway, I digress, but that was my thought process.

It is also an open secret among academics that getting a job in certain fields is significantly easier if you graduated from a prep school. Honestly, you practically need deep connections just to get a foot in the door. Take a high school classroom, for instance: if a teacher threatens a pop quiz, the room goes silent instantly. No student wants a 1 or a 2 dragging down their GPA. Unfortunately, in some schools, teachers can't even use those tactics because the kids simply don't care. They'll take a failing grade just to get the teacher off their back so they don't have to show up for summer school.☕

Barbers, carpenters, HVAC technicians, tilers, chefs, servers—you name it. Not everyone needs to flock to those elite prep schools that somehow churn out graduates who can barely string a coherent sentence together in their own language. Believe me, some students actually learn things there, though it’s rare.

(Disclaimer: I have nothing against preparatory academies; my issue lies with the pedestal we put those semi-literate "elites" on. 🤦)

Just how many of these jobs exist that don't require a high school credential, and what does the annual growth look like for those positions? 🍿

Linda Price5 said:Barbers, carpenters, HVAC technicians, tilers, chefs, servers—you name it. Not everyone needs to flock to those elite prep schools that somehow churn out graduates who can barely string a coherent sentence together in their own language. Believe me, some students actually learn things there, though it’s rare.

(Disclaimer: I have nothing against preparatory academies; my issue lies with the pedestal we put those semi-literate "elites" on. 🤦)

Just how many of these jobs exist that don't require a high school credential, and what does the annual growth look like for those positions? 🍿

I don't interact much with people who barely finished middle school, but I know from experience that several kids from my middle school ended up working construction jobs shortly after being kicked out of their high schools.

I didn't say only prep schools have value—I won't sit here and list every single type of vocational school—but for example, I think medical training is incredibly difficult, if not more so than prep school. I'm not trying to insult all trade schools, but when someone finishes middle school with mediocre grades, enrolls in culinary school to be a waiter, and then either fails out or gets expelled after three months for skipping class... no, I don't think that person is particularly brilliant.

As for the idea that someone doesn't know their own language or is semi-literate—well, that happens in prep schools too, just far less frequently than elsewhere. Regardless of whether you were thinking of me specifically, you certainly can't judge someone's literacy based on how they write on a forum, Facebook, or in a chat. For instance, I speak with a heavy regional dialect, which doesn't mean I don't understand proper pronunciation. Personally, I make an effort to use correct grammar and spelling on this forum, though that doesn't mean I don't adjust my tone during official business or when speaking to people I'm not close with (like when I was writing an English essay in school, for example. 😁)

copperheron18 said:Look, there is a massive gap between what happened 30 or 40 years ago and what is happening today; any rational person can see that. Back in the day, a professor was highly respected—a doctor was even more so. People used to bring gifts (bribes, let's call them 😁) because those professions were held in the highest esteem. You had the elite tier: the teacher, the doctor, the lawyer. You simply cannot compare the past to the present while my sister-in-law is working now. So much has shifted in the interim—economic instability, social shifts—which has left many people on edge, causing them to lash out at anyone within reach. The current state of society is just different, and while it affects teachers heavily because they deal with such diverse groups, it isn't limited to them.

It is not the same thing to be a teacher at a prestigious prep school where the kids are decent, actually want to learn, pay attention, care about their grades, and come from educated, cultured families. It's an entirely different universe compared to teaching at a three-year vocational school populated mostly by delinquents who lack basic vocabulary, manners, or any sense of decorum.

Middle schools are essentially a volatile mix of both extremes, and no one can dispute that. Being a teacher at a top-tier academy (specifically the one I attended, though many others are similar) is, in my opinion, a fantastic career. But being a teacher at some vocational school (I won't name names to avoid offense) is 🙂

My aunt isn't some ancient relic from the Stone Age; she’s a living, breathing woman who retired just a few years back. So yeah, she knows plenty about wars, unemployment, veterans, PTSD, and all that heavy stuff. And she wasn't even a high school professor; she was an elementary school teacher. 😉 What I find funny is that while she was working, she complained about everything under the sun—her paycheck, her working conditions, the color of the classroom walls, even how guys nowadays wear their hair too long. But I have never, ever heard her moan once about people not respecting her profession. 🙂

For anyone truly literate, expressing themselves in writing becomes second nature—it’s automatic. It’s much like how an expert driver doesn't have to consciously think about shifting from first to second gear. 🙂

How many jobs are actually out there for construction workers who didn't finish high school?

Most people fall somewhere in the middle of the bell curve when it comes to intelligence. So, when we look at this former hospitality student who struggled, it might not simply be a matter of him lacking brainpower. If he had cognitive difficulties, he should have been provided with a tailored curriculum. If the issue was something else—like a subpar K-12 education system (which, let's face it, is a major flaw in the US; you see plenty of teenagers who struggle with basic literacy despite having decent grades because why bother mastering reading comprehension when you can just coast through English class?)—then it's probably a mistake to pin the entire failure on the individual.

I highly doubt that, say, people in Scandinavia are significantly more intelligent than Americans.

Linda Price5 said:For anyone truly literate, expressing themselves in writing becomes second nature—it’s automatic. It’s much like how an expert driver doesn't have to consciously think about shifting from first to second gear. 🙂

How many jobs are actually out there for construction workers who didn't finish high school?

Most people fall somewhere in the middle of the bell curve when it comes to intelligence. So, when we look at this former hospitality student who struggled, it might not simply be a matter of him lacking brainpower. If he had cognitive difficulties, he should have been provided with a tailored curriculum. If the issue was something else—like a subpar K-12 education system (which, let's face it, is a major flaw in the US; you see plenty of teenagers who struggle with basic literacy despite having decent grades because why bother mastering reading comprehension when you can just coast through English class?)—then it's probably a mistake to pin the entire failure on the individual.

I highly doubt that, say, people in Scandinavia are significantly more intelligent than Americans.

There you go. Regarding that first point, I disagree. Just because I don't bother with perfect punctuation or spacing on a web forum doesn't mean I'm illiterate. I don't feel the need to justify my literacy to anyone here.

Why does someone struggle through middle and high school? Obviously, it depends on a multitude of factors beyond just the quality of the school system (which, admittedly, isn't perfect). If the education is the same, why does one person end up in medical school while another ends up on a construction site?

If we want to avoid turning this thread into a debate over who is most literate or which school district is better, let me stick to what I've heard directly from numerous teachers and what I observed during my own schooling. If anyone disagrees, fine, but I still maintain that teaching math in a prep academy is a far more pleasant experience than teaching it in a vocational school.

Just a quick reminder—we’re talking about teachers in elementary schools.