Why did Jesus die?

Angela Martin20 · 2011-01-01T01:05:05+00:00

I feel like a complete idiot right now, but whatever from what I gather, Jesus was accused of all sorts of things, but I'm really stuck on the part where he re…

Drew Watson3 Member

12 messages
joined Mar 2012

#481 · Mar 30, 2012

Anthony Perez9 said:If you live by the Tao, your will aligns with the universe. 😁
Going against the Tao isn't an act of freedom; it's just being out of sync with the "divine." As for free will, the way Christian theologians spin it feels like total nonsense—just some desperate apologetics meant to justify that snake in the Bible and the Creator.

Whether you call it the Tao, the universe, the divine, or God—whatever terminology you prefer—you hit the nail on the head by using the word "disharmony" to describe striking out against or drifting away from Perfection... And honestly, I don't see any contradiction with how Christian theologians view things, because you absolutely can use your free will to either align with or rebel against the "divine"...

Drew Watson3 Member

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joined Mar 2012

#482 · Mar 30, 2012

Jesus existed as both fully human—body and soul—and fully divine, being the Son through His spirit. A profound part of His suffering was actually His voluntary choice to forgo the chance to manifest His divinity at the very last second to save Himself, even though such a thing would have been entirely possible for Him as God; instead, He consciously chose to embrace the fullness of the human experience, surrendering every fiber of His being to the will of God the Father. This was Jesus' deliberate decision: to remain truly human until the very end, to endure everything any person would face while dying on a cross, feeling utterly abandoned by everyone, even by the Father who required this sacrifice so that we might all be saved. In those darkest, most agonizing moments, it’s only natural that any human being—including the man that Jesus was—would cry out to God and question why there was so much agony, whether it truly mattered, or why He felt so distant and forsaken from His Father, yet on the other hand, Jesus God accepted this path because He knew exactly why He was doing it...

feralorca2 Member

45 messages
joined Feb 2013

#483 · Mar 30, 2012

I honestly can't wrap my head around one thing, if God is truly all-powerful and basically running the whole show in the universe, then what's even the point of all this? 🤷

bluebison25 Active Member

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joined Feb 2012

#484 · Mar 30, 2012

feralorca2 said:I honestly can't wrap my head around one thing, if God is truly all-powerful and basically running the whole show in the universe, then what's even the point of all this? 🤷

That’s exactly where His omnipotence comes into play. For instance, a buddy of mine who believes says we can't even begin to wrap our heads around, feel, or see God, yet the Bible tells a completely different story. According to that logic, Jesus was half-man and half-God, which is why He died. So, half of His humanity perished while His spirit went to heaven... which means that spirit is actually God, so He just went back to heaven to hang out with Himself? 😕

feralorca2 Member

45 messages
joined Feb 2013

#485 · Mar 30, 2012

he just retreated into himself...🤷

So, instead of actually enjoying the process of making something beautiful, positive, and genuinely good... he "enjoys" the fact that he created something that’s the total opposite, just to prove his own omnipotence (which is such a loaded word 😁)... but to who?

urbanscout57 Newcomer

4 messages
joined Mar 2012

#486 · Mar 30, 2012

Look, if you ask me, the only theory that actually makes sense of all those "holes" in that dogma is that we're talking about aliens.

bluebison25 Active Member

84 messages
joined Feb 2012

#487 · Mar 30, 2012

feralorca2 said:he just retreated into himself...🤷

So, instead of actually enjoying the process of making something beautiful, positive, and genuinely good... he "enjoys" the fact that he created something that’s the total opposite, just to prove his own omnipotence (which is such a loaded word 😁)... but to who?

That’s more or less the idea, seeing as He is almighty.

feralorca2 said:he just retreated into himself...🤷

So, instead of actually enjoying the process of making something beautiful, positive, and genuinely good... he "enjoys" the fact that he created something that’s the total opposite, just to prove his own omnipotence (which is such a loaded word 😁)... but to who?

Look, He created everything, and we humans are the main event because we were made in His image (though I have no clue what that actually implies). If we were truly made in His image, we should be flawless, but Adam and Eve proved that’s clearly not the case. And who was God trying to impress? Probably Satan, or maybe just Himself—you have to account for the fact that God is almighty. - Of course, this is just my take based on what I've picked up here on the forum.

bluebison25 Active Member

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joined Feb 2012

#488 · Mar 30, 2012

wearyowl29 said:Honestly, I don't think free will even exists because there are just way too many outside forces acting on us. It feels like a theological joker pulled out of a sleeve just to explain where evil comes from—since God is good, He obviously couldn't create evil... so it's on us because we have "free will" to choose it.

Free will is basically the same concept as the dictatorship of the proletariat—it's just an ideological Band-Aid used to satisfy an ideological craving.

If God is good, there shouldn't be any evil around Him. Now, how the snake—Lucifer, or whatever you call evil—got in there and talked Adam and Eve into taking a bite of that red apple? That’s a whole different story.

feralorca2 Member

45 messages
joined Feb 2013

#489 · Mar 30, 2012

Anthony Perez9 said:Is free will actually a good thing if it ends up tossing half of humanity into eternal hell?
Is it a good move to create something that drives half of people away from God? Is being separated from God even a good thing? If not, then "free will" itself looks pretty evil. Why would God give us something so broken in the first place? 🙂

That’s exactly where the whole thing falls apart... you’ve got this one all-powerful, infinitely noble Creator supposedly running the show, yet He crafts a world filled with starvation, sickness, and endless wars—and the kicker is, He does it on purpose by design... It just makes zero sense to me, honestly. How can His supposed goodness coexist with the absolute chaos we see every single day as a direct product of His "grand design"... it’s totally contradictory...

bluebison25 said:If God is good, there shouldn't be any evil around Him. Now, how the snake—Lucifer, or whatever you call evil—got in there and talked Adam and Eve into taking a bite of that red apple? That’s a whole different story.

Look, just listen to me... it’s all coming from the same place, straight from God... 😁

Sophia Cooper2 Newcomer

4 messages
joined Mar 2012

#490 · Mar 30, 2012

feralorca2, this world is nothing more than a blink compared to eternity. People are thrown all these different trials, and since humans keep choosing the wrong path, well, look at the state of things now...

Sophia Cooper2 Newcomer

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joined Mar 2012

#491 · Mar 30, 2012

Jesus isn't God, nor is he the son of God—he’s just a messenger! Why can't people think for themselves? How can you claim he's half-human, half-god?
“For God has given the Spirit without limit to Jesus.” (John 3:34) Don't you see? Even John the Baptist identified Jesus as the messenger delivering God's own words.
5. “My much-needed food is to do the will of him who sent me and to complete his work.” (John 4:34) Isn't it crystal clear here? Jesus explicitly states he is a messenger carrying out the will of the one who sent him.
6. “Jesus himself testified, ‘A prophet has no honor in his own country.’” (John 4:44) This statement about his mission perfectly matches the experience of every other messenger. They never get respect from their own people; they're always embraced by outsiders instead.
7. “‘Sir, I see that you are a prophet...’ the woman said. ‘I know that the Messiah must come, the one called the Anointed One. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.’ ‘I am he,’ Jesus declared. (John 4:19, 25-26) With these words, Jesus confirmed he is indeed the promised prophet.
8. Then Jesus told them, “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself, but only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son does also.” (John 5:19) It's almost like he knew exactly what people would say about him later. He was being direct: he can't do anything unless God shows him how.

bluebison25 Active Member

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joined Feb 2012

#492 · Mar 30, 2012

feralorca2 said:That’s exactly where the whole thing falls apart... you’ve got this one all-powerful, infinitely noble Creator supposedly running the show, yet He crafts a world filled with starvation, sickness, and endless wars—and the kicker is, He does it on purpose by design... It just makes zero sense to me, honestly. How can His supposed goodness coexist with the absolute chaos we see every single day as a direct product of His "grand design"... it’s totally contradictory...

Look, just listen to me... it’s all coming from the same place, straight from God... 😁

Just because something works for us doesn't mean it aligns with God, and vice versa. It's the same deal with sin, even if the Bible lays out specific rules about what counts as a sin and what doesn't.

Drew Watson3 Member

12 messages
joined Mar 2012

#493 · Mar 30, 2012

feralorca2 said:That’s exactly where the whole thing falls apart... you’ve got this one all-powerful, infinitely noble Creator supposedly running the show, yet He crafts a world filled with starvation, sickness, and endless wars—and the kicker is, He does it on purpose by design... It just makes zero sense to me, honestly. How can His supposed goodness coexist with the absolute chaos we see every single day as a direct product of His "grand design"... it’s totally contradictory...

Look, just listen to me... it’s all coming from the same place, straight from God... 😁

God gave humanity nothing but Goodness, but people turned their backs on that and embraced Evil instead. The state of the world today is the consequence of human choices driven by darkness, rather than any divine design. Or perhaps we need to circle back to the fundamental question: why did God grant us the freedom to choose in the first place? Why didn't He just create us as mindless robots, or simply wave a magic wand to fix everything the moment someone breaks the harmony of this perfect stage? Why give us the capacity to earn our own way, instead of creating us as finished products who never have to make a decision, living in a state of effortless perfection where everything just works without us ever having to lift a finger???
Or, if we want to push the logic even further, why did God decide to create anything at all? He really should have asked us for permission first—asked if we even wanted to exist, what kind of beings we wanted to be, and what we actually intended to do with our lives! I still haven't heard an answer to my question regarding what you believe a truly perfect world would look like for everyone, rather than just for those "finished products" who seem to want someone else to constantly smooth over every single life challenge they encounter...

Anthony Perez9 Regular

311 messages
joined Apr 2019

#494 · Mar 30, 2012

Drew Watson3 said:Whether you call it the Tao, the universe, the divine, or God—whatever terminology you prefer—you hit the nail on the head by using the word "disharmony" to describe striking out against or drifting away from Perfection... And honestly, I don't see any contradiction with how Christian theologians view things, because you absolutely can use your free will to either align with or rebel against the "divine"...

Whether you call it Tao, the universe, the divine, or God—whatever—you used the word "dissonance" correctly to describe striking out against or moving away from Perfection. And sure, you can use your free will to act in harmony or dissonance with the "divine." I don't see how that contradicts Christian theologians.[/I]

You dodged the question. Is the concept of "free will" inherently good or bad? ☕

God creates this dissonance—this so-called free will—and builds it right into us, just so half of humanity can spend eternity in hell. It doesn't add up.

Personally, I think freedom is a positive thing; it’s basically living in the Tao, metaphorically speaking. Being in sync with the universe. Harmony isn't slavery. Christian theologians keep arguing that humans would just be robots if they lived in harmony with the Tao, so God had to install a "choice chip" for evil, aka free will. Seems pretty contradictory to me.

feralorca2 Member

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joined Feb 2013

#495 · Mar 30, 2012

Who even gets off writing about some kind of "perfect world" anyway? I’m talking about what God actually put together... and if God really wanted to, He could’ve made a damn perfect world to begin with. I mean, seriously, what’s the point if kids in places like sub-Saharan Africa are dying just because they don't have clean water? Is that supposed to be some kind of punishment or something?

And then He goes and 'planted' all those weaknesses, those impulses, and those endless cravings right inside our own heads...

Drew Watson3 Member

12 messages
joined Mar 2012

#496 · Mar 30, 2012

Anthony Perez9 said:Whether you call it Tao, the universe, the divine, or God—whatever—you used the word "dissonance" correctly to describe striking out against or moving away from Perfection. And sure, you can use your free will to act in harmony or dissonance with the "divine." I don't see how that contradicts Christian theologians.[/I]

You dodged the question. Is the concept of "free will" inherently good or bad? ☕

God creates this dissonance—this so-called free will—and builds it right into us, just so half of humanity can spend eternity in hell. It doesn't add up.

Personally, I think freedom is a positive thing; it’s basically living in the Tao, metaphorically speaking. Being in sync with the universe. Harmony isn't slavery. Christian theologians keep arguing that humans would just be robots if they lived in harmony with the Tao, so God had to install a "choice chip" for evil, aka free will. Seems pretty contradictory to me.

This is honestly the first time I've ever heard anyone suggest that Christian philosophers view free will as some kind of programming chip designed to push us toward evil. If we want to use technical language, free will is essentially just a binary switch between 0 and 1, and how you choose to flip that switch is entirely up to you! At the very least, you have the right to choose, so if you flip it toward the good, then free will is a wonderful thing, but if you flip it toward evil... well, that's your call again. Free will isn't some glitch in our genetic code that prevents us from functioning properly; rather, it's simply the capacity for choice: an "if-then-else" logic gate...
Overall, Anthony Perez9, I really think you might be misinterpreting Christian philosophy here, though I completely agree with you when you say that harmony isn't slavery (in Christian terms, slavery would be sin, or being bound to any form of evil)... basically, anything that stands in opposition to harmony—which Christians believe is God's perfect harmony—is considered slavery or evil. I don't see where the contradiction lies in your stance, other than your belief that free will was specifically designed to predispose us toward evil...

bluebison25 Active Member

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joined Feb 2012

#497 · Mar 30, 2012

feralorca2 said:Who even gets off writing about some kind of "perfect world" anyway? I’m talking about what God actually put together... and if God really wanted to, He could’ve made a damn perfect world to begin with. I mean, seriously, what’s the point if kids in places like sub-Saharan Africa are dying just because they don't have clean water? Is that supposed to be some kind of punishment or something?

And then He goes and 'planted' all those weaknesses, those impulses, and those endless cravings right inside our own heads...

God loves us all, and He shows it through the love surrounding us every day. As for those kids in Africa, God is simply strengthening their faith; it isn't a punishment. We use our free will to decide whether to follow God or not, whether to choose good over evil, or heaven over hell. For some, that free will is set up to make choosing God easy, while for others—like me—it feels like it's rigged toward the opposite direction...

Larry Wright23 Newcomer

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joined Mar 2012

#498 · Mar 30, 2012

Drew Watson3 said:But I have to ask, what would a "perfect" world actually look like to you? Would it be a world where humans function like programmed robots, incapable of ever making a mistake, or would it be a world where we possess true free will—where we stumble and fail, but possess the capacity to learn from those errors, guided by a God who offers eternal forgiveness and a fresh start every single time we mess up? Or perhaps you have some other vision entirely?...

I mean, if you think about it, the snake is basically the one who gave us "free will" in the first place, and then God punished us for it.

bluebison25 Active Member

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joined Feb 2012

#499 · Mar 30, 2012

Larry Wright23 said:I mean, if you think about it, the snake is basically the one who gave us "free will" in the first place, and then God punished us for it.

I thought the exact same thing at first, but free will had to exist beforehand because Adam made a conscious choice to bite that apple.

wearyowl29 Regular

715 messages
joined Feb 2014

#500 · Mar 30, 2012

Neve031;38722171 said:
God gave humanity nothing but Goodness, yet people turned their backs on it to embrace Evil.

Black and white is still such a classic look.

The world we see today is the result of humans playing games with evil, not God playing games with us.

So now, suddenly, God isn't playing anymore???

Or we end up back at that same old question: why did God give us free will in the first place? Why didn't He just build robots? Why doesn't He just wave a magic wand and fix everything the moment someone messes up this perfect stage? Why give us the chance to actually earn something? Why not just make us like puppets who don't have to decide anything, where everything just happens in perfect harmony without us even having to lift a finger???

Always with the "why this" and "why that"...

Or, let's take it even further—why did God create anything or anyone at all? He really should have asked for our permission first! You know, like, "Hey, do you guys want to exist? What kind of beings do you want to be? What do you want to do with your lives?"

Who says He didn't ask you???

Why did Jesus die?

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