All-day school schedules

Anthony Stewart5 said:Of course there isn't a single standard, as earning a Master's or a PhD is an entirely different matter altogether, and universities themselves dictate their own specific prerequisites for admission?

Is it truly possible to simply walk away from a specialized vocational program and transition directly into higher education without any further preparation? One might wonder if such a leap is feasible, yet the reality suggests that a more structured approach is required.

What we are truly lacking is sufficient hands-on experience compared to our peers, which means that even after completing vocational training, students emerge with only a fragmented understanding of their craft; yet, isn't the entire purpose of such programs to ensure they are fully prepared to hit the ground running in the American workforce?

Personally, we had plenty of practical training at our university—honestly, I don't see any way someone could breeze through a Kinesiology major unless they have an endless supply of energy and aren't afraid of combining intense physical labor with constant studying.

Sarah Hall53 said:Nah, the way we do things, kids go to school where the whole point is getting them ready for college, and then they head off to university looking for specialized knowledge that was never actually taught—because they were too busy in vocational schools designed specifically for training them for a specific trade. It’s just brilliant, really. Makes perfect sense if you don't think about it at all.

Anyway, you should really look into how they handle education over in places like France, Germany, or Switzerland—you know, those high-standard Western systems. Everywhere else, it’s standard practice to have vocational students spend a year or two catching up on core subjects so they can qualify for their high school equivalency exams or whatever the local term is. Here? We call this "great vertical mobility." Total joke.

"Academic prep" is just code for forcing kids to study everything for four years because nobody knows what they want to do yet.
Then, once they graduate, that kid ends up being the boss of someone who has been doing the actual job for four or more years. Suddenly, the degree holder thinks they're some bigger expert than the person with real experience.

Sarah Hall53 said:Nah, the way we do things, kids go to school where the whole point is getting them ready for college, and then they head off to university looking for specialized knowledge that was never actually taught—because they were too busy in vocational schools designed specifically for training them for a specific trade. It’s just brilliant, really. Makes perfect sense if you don't think about it at all.

Anyway, you should really look into how they handle education over in places like France, Germany, or Switzerland—you know, those high-standard Western systems. Everywhere else, it’s standard practice to have vocational students spend a year or two catching up on core subjects so they can qualify for their high school equivalency exams or whatever the local term is. Here? We call this "great vertical mobility." Total joke.

I know exactly what you were getting at. That's a different issue entirely, born from different circumstances. Just because we don't deal with that specific problem doesn't mean our system is superior or theirs is broken. It's not that simple.

shadowtiger0 said:There's a bit of everything, sure. I'll be the first to admit that an epidemiologist shouldn't be pulling the same paycheck as a surgeon—not that I even knew about this mess until now...—but they do.

That said, in most cases, doctors were top-tier students with incredible memories and a hell of a work ethic. On the day they decided to take on a grueling specialty right after graduation and grind away at it for years—believe me, that makes a massive difference compared to what we do.

I breezed through my college years... sort of. Some harder classes gave me a bit of trouble, but hey, I made it. If you saw the sheer volume of studying a doctor has to do, followed by their actual workload—you wouldn't say that.

Let me give you an example to illustrate: Pat. One of my buddies from the crew is getting married. We didn't have one of our resident doctors on duty at the ER that night. He rolls into the OR around 11 PM. Usually, he's this high-energy, hilarious guy—a textbook extrovert. This time, he's silent, eyes glued to the floor. We, being our usual "cheerful" selves, try to crack a few jokes to get him going. Finally, he snaps: "Guys, seriously, stop messing around, I just had a patient die on the table..."

Can you even imagine the looks on our faces? Now, imagine seeing that every single month for the rest of your life, while watching family members whine about every little thing while these guys just stay silent, swallow it, and push forward.

The medical professionals I know are all on the front lines actually working. As for those ones lounging in comfy office chairs? Not so much.

I'm not saying our job sucks (because it doesn't!), but it isn't like theirs. Not even close.

Listen, friend, in my career I've dealt with a student who was assaulted at thirteen, a sea of kids with parents struggling with alcoholism or drugs, children showing signs of schizophrenia, every possible spectrum of trauma, neglected and sick kids. My child's teacher lived through the death of a student. I am responsible for providing first aid in my school and I carry that weight with me every single day; I have a first aid kit right here in my classroom, I know how to administer an enema, I know how to react during a seizure. I deal with parents I'd have to report to CPS, I coordinate with the police, and I deal with lazy colleagues. Every day I'm in direct physical danger walking home late after a shift. Don't talk to me about responsibility.

A surgeon once told me he wouldn't teach even if they doubled his salary, because he's in awe of the patience required for our profession. He said performing heart surgery is routine for him, and at least his patients stay quiet.🤣

I love him and his dark sense of humor.

On the other hand, there's this jerk who told a pregnant woman she shouldn't address the baby by name because it's just a "fetus," not a person (I'm a pediatrician). Today, that same person sits there with a medical degree they basically memorized, unable to even deliver a baby anymore, instead spending their time sucking up to corrupt politicians and writing meaningless papers on medical history. They were always sleazy; I couldn't fathom them even studying medicine. Dirty nails, messy hair, zero hygiene.

Friend, you have no idea what it's like to face a reading list that spans 26 pages just for a single exam. A reading list.

Back when we were students, the hardest exams in the country were in my and your major: organic chemistry and new American literature. Nothing compared to medicine.

In my case, there were six semesters where retakes weren't even an option. In your colleagues' case, you already know the deal.

I never had a single exam like that.

Just being able to cram and having a high capacity for rote memorization doesn't mean everyone coming out of med school is worthy of respect. Just ask me about the doctors who treated me, or the idiot who told me when I was nineteen that I had six months to live after my brain scan came back...

Kate Jackson4 said:It doesn't need to be coding in every single high school... It could just be tailored for general tracks—things like mastering MS Office, digital literacy, or navigating various apps. There is plenty to cover without needing to write code...

Honestly, kids these days pretty much figure this stuff out on their own anyway.

I'm with MH on this one—language majors are essentially humanists by trade, so coding isn't really their vibe, nor is it particularly necessary for them.

Don't laugh—but we’ve completely overlooked something that is actually essential these days. I’d love to see it integrated into computer science classes—not necessarily as its own subject, but just part of the curriculum. 😬 It is infinitely easier and faster to type when you actually know how to do it properly, rather than picking up bad habits early on that are a nightmare to fix later. Is touch typing still taught in business schools at all? It seems strange that nobody thought to expand this further; after all, everyone uses a keyboard now, not just secretaries. 😬

Jose Wells3 said:Listen, friend, in my career I've dealt with a student who was assaulted at thirteen, a sea of kids with parents struggling with alcoholism or drugs, children showing signs of schizophrenia, every possible spectrum of trauma, neglected and sick kids. My child's teacher lived through the death of a student. I am responsible for providing first aid in my school and I carry that weight with me every single day; I have a first aid kit right here in my classroom, I know how to administer an enema, I know how to react during a seizure. I deal with parents I'd have to report to CPS, I coordinate with the police, and I deal with lazy colleagues. Every day I'm in direct physical danger walking home late after a shift. Don't talk to me about responsibility.

A surgeon once told me he wouldn't teach even if they doubled his salary, because he's in awe of the patience required for our profession. He said performing heart surgery is routine for him, and at least his patients stay quiet.🤣

I love him and his dark sense of humor.

On the other hand, there's this jerk who told a pregnant woman she shouldn't address the baby by name because it's just a "fetus," not a person (I'm a pediatrician). Today, that same person sits there with a medical degree they basically memorized, unable to even deliver a baby anymore, instead spending their time sucking up to corrupt politicians and writing meaningless papers on medical history. They were always sleazy; I couldn't fathom them even studying medicine. Dirty nails, messy hair, zero hygiene.

Friend, you have no idea what it's like to face a reading list that spans 26 pages just for a single exam. A reading list.

Back when we were students, the hardest exams in the country were in my and your major: organic chemistry and new American literature. Nothing compared to medicine.

In my case, there were six semesters where retakes weren't even an option. In your colleagues' case, you already know the deal.

I never had a single exam like that.

Just being able to cram and having a high capacity for rote memorization doesn't mean everyone coming out of med school is worthy of respect. Just ask me about the doctors who treated me, or the idiot who told me when I was nineteen that I had six months to live after my brain scan came back...

We aren't "friends" because we didn't grow up sharing trading cards like kids do, so...

You have a bit too high an opinion of yourself; we aren't on the same level as doctors (the ones working on the front lines), and that is the truth, regardless of what you think.

Do you really think I haven't dealt with children facing the exact problems you're describing? You think there was only one?

Was it me who helped them in the end, or someone close to me who happens to be a psychiatrist? What do you think the correct answer is?

And that someone close to me does that every single day—literally every single God-given day for years now.

Fine, you don't like doctors and you think you know more than them. Next time you feel sick or, heaven forbid, get injured, go find that colleague of yours with the liberal arts degree and let him help you, since he—you know—actually sat through Anatomy in college.

As for the difficulty of the subjects, I can only laugh. Comparing your college experience to mine against Medical School... 🤔

That specific subject at my school that you claimed was the hardest (though I have no idea what metrics anyone uses to decide what's "hardest"—I guess you'd have to visit every university in America and conduct a massive scientific study to get any kind of meta-analysis of the data...) was only hard because that specific professor made it that way.

Nothing more, nothing less.

I am just an ordinary teacher. I love kids and I try to help them. In fact, just today, I had a very serious talk with my class about bullying. A VERY serious talk.

But if you're asking whether I'd go out of my way to play the hero—acting like some kind of saint or someone I'm definitely not—then the answer is a hard no.

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shadowtiger0 said:Honestly, kids these days pretty much figure this stuff out on their own anyway.

I'm with MH on this one—language majors are essentially humanists by trade, so coding isn't really their vibe, nor is it particularly necessary for them.

I wouldn't be so sure about that...

There are countless applications available today that could streamline daily workflows, yet so many people remain completely unaware of them. Most can't even navigate advanced features in Word, let alone Excel...
Let's just say I won't be mentioning Power Apps...

It all could have been handled back in high school... ☕

Regarding internships in high schools and colleges—our education system looks pretty similar to the German one on paper, but the catch is we don't have the massive industrial backbone that Germany has. I mean, how many companies are there actually capable of taking on a young mechanical technician for an internship and truly teaching them the ropes? Or a junior IT tech? When I was working at Siemens in Austria, we had kids from those vocational schools coming in for internships all the time. And they weren't just sitting around; they were doing actual technician work under the supervision of a senior pro who was specifically paid extra to mentor them. Once they graduated, a lot of them just stayed on in the same roles. Instead of an apprenticeship agreement—since yes, those internships are actually paid—they just transitioned straight into full employment contracts. Here, interns often just get treated like errand runners meant to fetch coffee or snacks, or even worse, places will just sign off on their internship hours and send them packing. It’s not uncommon for a student to have to hunt down their own mandatory internship because the school can't provide one. Take a vocational school for CNC operators, for example; a graduate should be ready to run a machine independently right away. But here, a kid is lucky if they're even allowed to touch the machine during their internship, let alone receive any real training.

Adam Diaz67 said:Regarding internships in high schools and colleges—our education system looks pretty similar to the German one on paper, but the catch is we don't have the massive industrial backbone that Germany has. I mean, how many companies are there actually capable of taking on a young mechanical technician for an internship and truly teaching them the ropes? Or a junior IT tech? When I was working at Siemens in Austria, we had kids from those vocational schools coming in for internships all the time. And they weren't just sitting around; they were doing actual technician work under the supervision of a senior pro who was specifically paid extra to mentor them. Once they graduated, a lot of them just stayed on in the same roles. Instead of an apprenticeship agreement—since yes, those internships are actually paid—they just transitioned straight into full employment contracts. Here, interns often just get treated like errand runners meant to fetch coffee or snacks, or even worse, places will just sign off on their internship hours and send them packing. It’s not uncommon for a student to have to hunt down their own mandatory internship because the school can't provide one. Take a vocational school for CNC operators, for example; a graduate should be ready to run a machine independently right away. But here, a kid is lucky if they're even allowed to touch the machine during their internship, let alone receive any real training.

That effectively summarizes everything there is to say regarding vocational education.

A colleague of mine completed two years of high school vocational training where she held a formal contract, received a steady paycheck, and performed administrative duties—work that usually requires a four-year business degree. I have spoken with her extensively about this, and neither she nor her peers harbor any resentment toward those who pursued university degrees.
At the end of the day, it comes down to economic stability; she is living a perfectly comfortable life thanks to her training, whereas many others who finish standard business programs find themselves stuck in low-level clerical roles at local government offices earning barely enough to get by.

But here’s the thing—while I was wandering the globe trying to get my first career off the ground, I noticed a recurring pattern: Americans really seem to hold their own out there. And I mean everyone, from blue-collar workers to high-level PhD researchers.

It makes you wonder, right? You have to assume those same foundational lessons from our public school teachers—or in my case, the ladies who were basically my aunts 😁—eventually paved the way for more specialized professors later on.
The reality is, we don't always get enough hands-on training back home, yet our people still absolutely crush it abroad. They’re constantly in demand because, honestly, they possess that gritty American work ethic where they can outpace a Briton or a Frenchman despite having less formal recognition for their degrees.

I’ve seen this play out countless times.

shadowtiger0, here’s the cold, hard truth, stripped of all the fluff.

Some people just aren't cut out for medicine, and if we relied on the KIF, they'd still be stuck in limbo. It comes down to raw human capacity and natural aptitude.

And let’s stop with this pyramid-style hierarchy nonsense. If we were being brutally honest, most of us wouldn't survive a day without support staff—cleaning crews, for instance. Even that high-and-mighty doctor would be absolutely nothing without the dedicated nurses who handle the messy reality of patient care.

John, high schools really need to bake internships into the curriculum—there are plenty of opportunities out there—and modernize how they actually structure the day, the week, the month... Cramming every single subject into one frantic week isn't doing anyone any favors, regardless of how much brainpower those students have. I have a mountain of ideas, as usual, but look—I’ll admit I can be pretty dictatorial, and I might not even be right. But for me? What’s the point of a high school grad who can't build a basic financial framework for a small project? Like, say, a study plan paired with a budget, or even just renovating their own room? What good is a graduate who can't write a decent essay in the very languages they spent years studying? Honestly, forget about any student who can't draft a formal letter, file an appeal against an administrative decision, or put together a killer resume. If they aren't volunteering and don't know anything beyond mindless chatter, what are they even doing?

As for vocational programs, I’d push for more meaningful hands-on training. If we don't have those opportunities locally, we should be looking at exchange programs—after all, we are part of the Western world. Mobility matters. I’d also pivot all those "unrelated" subjects to serve the core profession and future careers, while still keeping the essential general knowledge every human being needs to function.

Hagan, what kind of high school program are we talking about here? We actually had something similar back in the day—it was called the Schwarzer method—and honestly, it worked wonders. I really think those kinds of programs should stick around longer.

It’s pretty rare here to see kids head straight overseas right after finishing their associate degrees at a community college. Usually, they land a local job first to get some actual hands-on experience under their belts, and then once they have maybe three to five years of solid field work, they decide to move abroad. It’s not much different for our engineers who jump overseas immediately after graduation, either. Their peers—especially those who graduated from a German technical institute like an AAU—tend to come out with way more practical, hands-on expertise. Our graduates usually have a broader theoretical foundation, but they often struggle when it comes to real-world application. That’s why an American grad might get hired as an intern at 70% pay, while an AAU grad gets brought on as a junior at full salary. I guess they eventually level out somewhere around the two or three-year mark.

Sarah Hall53 said:Hagan, what kind of high school program are we talking about here? We actually had something similar back in the day—it was called the Schwarzer method—and honestly, it worked wonders. I really think those kinds of programs should stick around longer.

I suppose anything is possible if you scale it correctly.

Personally, I’m the type who believes kids should be out there working manual jobs starting at thirteen.🤣

The Department of the Treasury isn't some joke—trust me on that. I’m speaking from experience after getting in with a perfect 4.0 GPA straight out of an FBI background check, matched by top-tier scores on my SATs and national science competitions. The first three years? Brutal. For everyone. And let’s be real—you can’t even put these programs in the same conversation as a Teachers Union college, a liberal arts school, or a general state university... regardless of how much talent or intellect you think you have.

I graduated last year, and honestly? I’m already starting to realize just how many massive gaps there are in my knowledge...

First off, I’d like to point out... History...To be honest, there are huge historical milestones that I can't even place on a timeline—like, I couldn't tell you which century the Battle of Waterloo took place in if my life depended on it. If anything, I’d suggest trimming down the global history curriculum. In our schools, American history was always shoved to the very end of every unit... usually right when everyone had completely tuned out because we were drowning in catch-up work or cramming for exams. Most of the time, we'd get stuck with just one single lesson squeezed into a forty-minute period.

Iz American I’d abolish required reading entirely—let them read whatever they actually want. I still don't get the point of dissecting poems... I only ever bother remembering the most basic literary devices anyway.

As part of... Math. I’d look into introducing some basic statistics and financial literacy. Honestly, the little bit of stats I picked up back in college—just the bare essentials—would be more than enough for high schoolers, and we could probably wrap it all up in two weeks. I’d ditch infinitesimal calculus entirely; that stuff should stay reserved for math-heavy prep schools. After all, every university starts from scratch with derivatives and integrals anyway when they teach the SAT...

I'm not going to go through every single subject and list everything I’d change—even though I have plenty of ideas... In short—cut the curriculum down. Most of this material is forgotten the second the exam is over anyway. If I’m struggling to keep up, what hope is there for the people who spent their lives cramming just to pass a single test?...

northerntiger9 said:Don't laugh—but we’ve completely overlooked something that is actually essential these days. I’d love to see it integrated into computer science classes—not necessarily as its own subject, but just part of the curriculum. 😬 It is infinitely easier and faster to type when you actually know how to do it properly, rather than picking up bad habits early on that are a nightmare to fix later. Is touch typing still taught in business schools at all? It seems strange that nobody thought to expand this further; after all, everyone uses a keyboard now, not just secretaries. 😬

This isn't funny at all. I say this constantly. There are so many opportunities, yet so few competent people. One of the older folks (who does absolutely nothing with computers now) was using typing tutor software back in fourth grade under a different teacher. But they didn't practice nearly enough to actually master it properly.

Computer science curricula try to cover everything, but they never stick to anything. It’s infuriating.

We have twenty-five-year-olds starting jobs who can't handle basic Office applications—PowerPoint, Excel, Word—any better than I could when I was teaching myself twenty-five years ago. It's ridiculous. Everyone wants to learn how to code, yet nobody bothers to pick up the practical, everyday skills that actually matter.

I wouldn't count the University of Wyoming in that list. I know people who crushed some seriously brutal majors, yet they never would have survived there. For instance, an acquaintance of mine finished engineering physics right on schedule with a great GPA. But that guy never touched a sport in his life; he’s got so little stamina he's basically dying by the time he hits the second floor, and his coordination? Questionable at best. He was always the goalie in gym class just because he stayed out of everyone's way, but he was a smoker with reflexes like a dead cat.

For me, the FBI academy felt relatively easy, but there's no way I could ever finish at Berklee College of Music or the Rhode Island School of Design. Zero talent there.

Anyway, required reading is actually a great thing if it's handled the right way. In my high school, we didn't have to write essays on books. Instead, we tackled them through discussions about the work. It teaches you how to read with actual comprehension, how to think critically, and how to debate. We could pretty much trash any book we read as long as we could back up our arguments. Honestly, the teacher even encouraged us to argue why we hated a book if it wasn't our cup of tea.

Sarah Hall53 said:Hagan, what kind of high school program are we talking about here? We actually had something similar back in the day—it was called the Schwarzer method—and honestly, it worked wonders. I really think those kinds of programs should stick around longer.

Under Suvar’s leadership, high schools didn't even exist in that format.

I used to think that whole "2+2" educational model was a total mess.
But looking back now, it actually seems better designed than our current system; I’d take that old structure any day.
I'd also bring back entrance exams for both high school and college.

Man, honestly, how many of you would actually bother mastering two foreign languages? And then what? Are we just going to start another one of those endless arguments about which curriculum is "harder" than the other?

The whole point is that high school should be about getting kids ready for college. Vocational schools, on the other hand, are meant to prep them for specific careers. It’s pretty straightforward.

It’s also just a fact that our teaching staff is incredibly well-educated—we’re basically on par with Finland—but apparently, that bothers some people. They seem to want to go back to having elementary school teachers trying to teach kids basic literacy again. Anything beyond the alphabet and multiplication tables is just a massive waste of time and resources if you ask me.

And let’s not forget the fact that our Secretary of Education is a veterinarian who acts like he’s running a livestock farm instead of an entire department. Look, he could have three PhDs for all I care, but the guy doesn't seem to have a clue about his own field. Plus, he’s surrounded by people who are either incompetent or just plain malicious—I haven't quite decided which yet. Well, except for Harvey Weinstein. He’s definitely 10/10 evil. But anyway, they all pretend they know what they're doing, and this is the kind of "reform" we end up with.

Nicholas Davis4 said:Under Suvar’s leadership, high schools didn't even exist in that format.

I used to think that whole "2+2" educational model was a total mess.
But looking back now, it actually seems better designed than our current system; I’d take that old structure any day.
I'd also bring back entrance exams for both high school and college.

It wasn't even real high school back then; they were just those "vocational" training centers for teaching assistants and other junk like that.

As for that tiered schooling model, it's a disaster—those early years just act as a massive drag on everyone. You've got the kids who are capable of so much more, but they're being held back and slowed down by the exact same system that stifled them in elementary school. Then you have the kids who are struggling, and instead of getting help with the fundamentals, they're forced through a curriculum that's way too advanced for their actual knowledge gaps. So everyone ends up stuck, and nobody ever really gets to reach their full potential.