Man, society, progress, and spirituality

At the end of the day, all a person truly needs is very little.
One of my favorite thinkers and philosophers, Toma Bebić, captures this beautifully in this song (though unfortunately, I could only find the version covered by Banov):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6v5xuBSI7T4

What do we actually need to survive? Food, clothing, shelter, understanding, acceptance, and love from others—that’s it. Some people also require spirituality, while others feel they don't need it at all.

If we look back at history, people worked hard to secure their basic necessities. Once those needs were met, it brought them a genuine sense of satisfaction, achievement, and fulfillment.

So, what has progress actually given us? While life is easier and more convenient in many ways, we are constantly bombarded with information. We are told we can't live without every single thing on the market, and we are perpetually categorized, ranked, and labeled.
Essentially, we have been turned into tools serving capital. Even those who possess wealth are, in a sense, instruments of it, because at some point, money takes control and usurps power over its supposed owner.
Capital has become both a god and a tyrant on this earth. Like water, it always finds a crack to seep through, turning things around in ways no drill ever could.
Some have embraced this easily, making capital their god; others struggle with it, seeking answers, peace, and even solace in spirituality.
Despite all the advancements and conveniences progress has provided, people today are unhappy, alienated, tired, and exhausted.
It seems to me that we are unhappier, more exhausted, and more disconnected than ever before.
We have distanced ourselves from nature, from God, from one another, and in part, from our very essence.
Is progress a revolution that will eventually consume its own children?
P.S. I hesitated between posting this in Philosophy or Spirituality, but I decided Spirituality was the better fit.
If the moderators feel another subforum is more appropriate, I have no objection to moving it.

I see you, Stellica, my dear little star, and I can tell your little head is swirling with those deep questions about what it actually means to be human.
Let me tell you a little story about man, society, progress, and the soul...

Driving my big, beautiful car home tonight through a gorgeous, breezy, and perfectly calm evening—just getting back from dinner at that fancy spot in Greenwich after an incredibly productive day at the office—I felt pretty satisfied. My colleagues even rebranded our end-of-week social as "choir practice" just to charm me into joining them. But even with all that, I find myself thinking about how there’s still this void. Despite all this success, I realized I don't even have anyone I can just talk to—someone I can say the absolute dumbest thing to without it feeling heavy. It’s a simple, grounded kind of connection that I’m missing.

I was sitting there thinking about how it must be a beautiful night somewhere out in the jungle, too, and how much I’d love to just yell like Tarzan and have someone swing me right up into a treehouse in the middle of nowhere.

...And there you have it: the portrait of the modern, successful American. No matter what the "Western world" defines as winning, even if you have everyone's attention—because, let's face it, success draws people in and makes even your rivals fall in line—you can still end up lacking the most vital thing of all... a soul.

The attention people direct toward those they deem "successful" is purely transactional. It is calculated—offered like a stake or an investment in the hope that this favor will be recognized and repaid when it becomes convenient or useful later on.
Unconditional love and genuine attention are entirely different matters. A person can sense the difference immediately; you can tell whether someone is giving you affection simply because of who you are, or because they believe you might be of use to them down the road.

Love is not a commodity

slymaker9, I’ve noticed that your threads always seem to follow mine with a bit of a delay.

Why are you following my lead? You take my topics, twist them around to fit your own perspective, and then try to push them out there as if they're some brand-new idea.😍

Ronald Rogers27

Ronald Rogers27 said:slymaker9, I’ve noticed that your threads always seem to follow mine with a bit of a delay.

Why are you following my lead? You take my topics, twist them around to fit your own perspective, and then try to push them out there as if they're some brand-new idea.😍

Ronald Rogers27

So, what now? 🤷
Nothing. I will simply assume you prefer the truth over a flattering lie.🙂
Ronald Rogers27, certain topics and questions resonate with a large number of people, which is why our current discussions overlap. The question regarding the negative impact of modern society on the individual is an age-old one—a subject considered by every liberal and humanist.

I have read and participated in your thread, and it is certainly possible that it served as an unconscious catalyst within the complex machinery of motivation.
However, it seems to me that our topics are fundamentally different. This is due not only to our distinct language and style but also because you seem to advocate for alienation from others—or at least, that is my impression. My own focus is on connecting with God, with others, and with oneself.🙂

In any case, I never intended to be your competition. 😍
I only consciously noticed the similarity because you brought it to my attention.

slymaker9 said:The attention people direct toward those they deem "successful" is purely transactional. It is calculated—offered like a stake or an investment in the hope that this favor will be recognized and repaid when it becomes convenient or useful later on.
Unconditional love and genuine attention are entirely different matters. A person can sense the difference immediately; you can tell whether someone is giving you affection simply because of who you are, or because they believe you might be of use to them down the road.

Love is not a commodity

Unconditional love is one thing, and naturally, it can't be bought, but the attention, support, and recognition you get from colleagues within your professional network is a completely different matter.

I am incredibly proud of our teamwork lately; it has become my main source of personal fulfillment. I wouldn't be able to find this level of satisfaction or achieve this kind of success without these people. We serve each other—the mutual interest and satisfaction are shared by all.

As for unconditional love... after my first post on this thread, I hopped in the shower and washed away both the glory and the spiritual highs of the evening, along with a bit of self-pity because my shower isn't tucked away under some jungle canopy in a movie where Tarzan can hand me a towel. Feeling reborn, I started fresh, believing that every new day is a clean slate. Even though it was already 11 PM, I remembered that my dogs hadn't been to the park today. In the crisp, cool air of an American night, sitting there with my two pups who absolutely adore me unconditionally, I realized that even a soul like mine has living beings who show true, selfless devotion.🙂
and that is something special.👍

Lisa Morales4 said:Unconditional love is one thing, and naturally, it can't be bought, but the attention, support, and recognition you get from colleagues within your professional network is a completely different matter.

I am incredibly proud of our teamwork lately; it has become my main source of personal fulfillment. I wouldn't be able to find this level of satisfaction or achieve this kind of success without these people. We serve each other—the mutual interest and satisfaction are shared by all.

As for unconditional love... after my first post on this thread, I hopped in the shower and washed away both the glory and the spiritual highs of the evening, along with a bit of self-pity because my shower isn't tucked away under some jungle canopy in a movie where Tarzan can hand me a towel. Feeling reborn, I started fresh, believing that every new day is a clean slate. Even though it was already 11 PM, I remembered that my dogs hadn't been to the park today. In the crisp, cool air of an American night, sitting there with my two pups who absolutely adore me unconditionally, I realized that even a soul like mine has living beings who show true, selfless devotion.🙂
and that is something special.👍

It isn't just "something"—it's everything.👍

slymaker9 said:So, what now? 🤷
Nothing. I will simply assume you prefer the truth over a flattering lie.🙂
Ronald Rogers27, certain topics and questions resonate with a large number of people, which is why our current discussions overlap. The question regarding the negative impact of modern society on the individual is an age-old one—a subject considered by every liberal and humanist.

I have read and participated in your thread, and it is certainly possible that it served as an unconscious catalyst within the complex machinery of motivation.
However, it seems to me that our topics are fundamentally different. This is due not only to our distinct language and style but also because you seem to advocate for alienation from others—or at least, that is my impression. My own focus is on connecting with God, with others, and with oneself.🙂

In any case, I never intended to be your competition. 😍
I only consciously noticed the similarity because you brought it to my attention.

You women... when you phrase it like that, it sounds almost sweet: one of the implicit motivations within a complicated incentive mechanism. 😍

slymaker9 said:So, what now? 🤷
Nothing. I will simply assume you prefer the truth over a flattering lie.🙂
Ronald Rogers27, certain topics and questions resonate with a large number of people, which is why our current discussions overlap. The question regarding the negative impact of modern society on the individual is an age-old one—a subject considered by every liberal and humanist.

I have read and participated in your thread, and it is certainly possible that it served as an unconscious catalyst within the complex machinery of motivation.
However, it seems to me that our topics are fundamentally different. This is due not only to our distinct language and style but also because you seem to advocate for alienation from others—or at least, that is my impression. My own focus is on connecting with God, with others, and with oneself.🙂

In any case, I never intended to be your competition. 😍
I only consciously noticed the similarity because you brought it to my attention.

My view is that a Man needs to distance himself first. He needs to sort out his own context and find peace within himself before he can truly integrate with society. A Man who breaks free from those external pressures is way more motivated and fulfilled than someone trying to survive in a broken community, clinging to the illusion that he's actually in control of his life.

slymaker9 said:So, what now? 🤷
Nothing. I will simply assume you prefer the truth over a flattering lie.🙂
Ronald Rogers27, certain topics and questions resonate with a large number of people, which is why our current discussions overlap. The question regarding the negative impact of modern society on the individual is an age-old one—a subject considered by every liberal and humanist.

I have read and participated in your thread, and it is certainly possible that it served as an unconscious catalyst within the complex machinery of motivation.
However, it seems to me that our topics are fundamentally different. This is due not only to our distinct language and style but also because you seem to advocate for alienation from others—or at least, that is my impression. My own focus is on connecting with God, with others, and with oneself.🙂

In any case, I never intended to be your competition. 😍
I only consciously noticed the similarity because you brought it to my attention.

I wasn't trying to criticize you. I just wanted to point out that you might be unconsciously adopting my ideas within this whole complex spiritual motivation thing. 😬

Ronald Rogers27

Ronald Rogers27 said:You women... when you phrase it like that, it sounds almost sweet: one of the implicit motivations within a complicated incentive mechanism. 😍

My view is that a Man needs to distance himself first. He needs to sort out his own context and find peace within himself before he can truly integrate with society. A Man who breaks free from those external pressures is way more motivated and fulfilled than someone trying to survive in a broken community, clinging to the illusion that he's actually in control of his life.

I wasn't trying to criticize you. I just wanted to point out that you might be unconsciously adopting my ideas within this whole complex spiritual motivation thing. 😬

Ronald Rogers27

Well, can I then try to catch you in your own complex mechanism of spiritual motivation? 😛

You women, when you put it together, it can sound quite lovely: one of the implicit motivations within a complicated system of incentives. 😍

So, I guess we're all about inclusivity here. 😍

I advocate for the alienation of Man so that he can first fix his own context and find alignment with himself before attempting to integrate with Society. A Man liberated from blackmail is far more motivated and satisfied than one living in a broken society, pretending he’s in control of his life.

But couldn't that "fixing" and "integration" happen simultaneously? 😕
Ronald Rogers27, you act like a perfectionist editor: first observation, then perception, then realization, then intention, then the rough draft, then logic, then aesthetics, then the second draft, then the first copy, then the second, third, then the final version, and only then do you actually take action. 🙄

By the way, don't you know that a tiny bee flying miles for pollen—always finding its way back to its hive without fail—only needs intuition 🙂
to prove there is more God in her than in a Man who is handicapped by his own foresight, reaching for heights when all the answers are already right there in his heart.

.. and I'm chiming in too .. representing simplicity itself.

slymaker9 said:It isn't just "something"—it's everything.👍

😢 👍

Lisa Morales4 said:Well, can I then try to catch you in your own complex mechanism of spiritual motivation? 😛

You women, when you put it together, it can sound quite lovely: one of the implicit motivations within a complicated system of incentives. 😍

So, I guess we're all about inclusivity here. 😍

I advocate for the alienation of Man so that he can first fix his own context and find alignment with himself before attempting to integrate with Society. A Man liberated from blackmail is far more motivated and satisfied than one living in a broken society, pretending he’s in control of his life.

But couldn't that "fixing" and "integration" happen simultaneously? 😕
Ronald Rogers27, you act like a perfectionist editor: first observation, then perception, then realization, then intention, then the rough draft, then logic, then aesthetics, then the second draft, then the first copy, then the second, third, then the final version, and only then do you actually take action. 🙄

By the way, don't you know that a tiny bee flying miles for pollen—always finding its way back to its hive without fail—only needs intuition 🙂
to prove there is more God in her than in a Man who is handicapped by his own foresight, reaching for heights when all the answers are already right there in his heart.

.. and I'm chiming in too .. representing simplicity itself.

😢 👍

Yes. Go ahead. Make my day. 😬

Lisa Morales4 said:Well, can I then try to catch you in your own complex mechanism of spiritual motivation? 😛

You women, when you put it together, it can sound quite lovely: one of the implicit motivations within a complicated system of incentives. 😍

So, I guess we're all about inclusivity here. 😍

I advocate for the alienation of Man so that he can first fix his own context and find alignment with himself before attempting to integrate with Society. A Man liberated from blackmail is far more motivated and satisfied than one living in a broken society, pretending he’s in control of his life.

But couldn't that "fixing" and "integration" happen simultaneously? 😕
Ronald Rogers27, you act like a perfectionist editor: first observation, then perception, then realization, then intention, then the rough draft, then logic, then aesthetics, then the second draft, then the first copy, then the second, third, then the final version, and only then do you actually take action. 🙄

By the way, don't you know that a tiny bee flying miles for pollen—always finding its way back to its hive without fail—only needs intuition 🙂
to prove there is more God in her than in a Man who is handicapped by his own foresight, reaching for heights when all the answers are already right there in his heart.

.. and I'm chiming in too .. representing simplicity itself.

😢 👍

I had a pretty rough experience recently. Honestly, some women can be so incredibly exclusive, extroverted, and just straight-up aggressive. It was intense. 😬

Lisa Morales4 said:Well, can I then try to catch you in your own complex mechanism of spiritual motivation? 😛

You women, when you put it together, it can sound quite lovely: one of the implicit motivations within a complicated system of incentives. 😍

So, I guess we're all about inclusivity here. 😍

I advocate for the alienation of Man so that he can first fix his own context and find alignment with himself before attempting to integrate with Society. A Man liberated from blackmail is far more motivated and satisfied than one living in a broken society, pretending he’s in control of his life.

But couldn't that "fixing" and "integration" happen simultaneously? 😕
Ronald Rogers27, you act like a perfectionist editor: first observation, then perception, then realization, then intention, then the rough draft, then logic, then aesthetics, then the second draft, then the first copy, then the second, third, then the final version, and only then do you actually take action. 🙄

By the way, don't you know that a tiny bee flying miles for pollen—always finding its way back to its hive without fail—only needs intuition 🙂
to prove there is more God in her than in a Man who is handicapped by his own foresight, reaching for heights when all the answers are already right there in his heart.

.. and I'm chiming in too .. representing simplicity itself.

😢 👍

I can multitask, sure, but if you aren't a total pro, things can get messy fast. It’s way too easy to lose track of everything. Just look at what **Bob** said as an example.

Lisa Morales4 said:Well, can I then try to catch you in your own complex mechanism of spiritual motivation? 😛

You women, when you put it together, it can sound quite lovely: one of the implicit motivations within a complicated system of incentives. 😍

So, I guess we're all about inclusivity here. 😍

I advocate for the alienation of Man so that he can first fix his own context and find alignment with himself before attempting to integrate with Society. A Man liberated from blackmail is far more motivated and satisfied than one living in a broken society, pretending he’s in control of his life.

But couldn't that "fixing" and "integration" happen simultaneously? 😕
Ronald Rogers27, you act like a perfectionist editor: first observation, then perception, then realization, then intention, then the rough draft, then logic, then aesthetics, then the second draft, then the first copy, then the second, third, then the final version, and only then do you actually take action. 🙄

By the way, don't you know that a tiny bee flying miles for pollen—always finding its way back to its hive without fail—only needs intuition 🙂
to prove there is more God in her than in a Man who is handicapped by his own foresight, reaching for heights when all the answers are already right there in his heart.

.. and I'm chiming in too .. representing simplicity itself.

😢 👍

Women's intuition is something else. It’s powerful enough to build an entire life on—I'm talking buying houses, driving nice cars, crushing it in business, and creating a perfect home. Honestly, what can I even say? It's like those old stories about Maya and Paul. 😍

Ronald Rogers27

slymaker9 said:At the end of the day, all a person truly needs is very little.
One of my favorite thinkers and philosophers, Toma Bebić, captures this beautifully in this song (though unfortunately, I could only find the version covered by Banov):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6v5xuBSI7T4

What do we actually need to survive? Food, clothing, shelter, understanding, acceptance, and love from others—that’s it. Some people also require spirituality, while others feel they don't need it at all.

If we look back at history, people worked hard to secure their basic necessities. Once those needs were met, it brought them a genuine sense of satisfaction, achievement, and fulfillment.

So, what has progress actually given us? While life is easier and more convenient in many ways, we are constantly bombarded with information. We are told we can't live without every single thing on the market, and we are perpetually categorized, ranked, and labeled.
Essentially, we have been turned into tools serving capital. Even those who possess wealth are, in a sense, instruments of it, because at some point, money takes control and usurps power over its supposed owner.
Capital has become both a god and a tyrant on this earth. Like water, it always finds a crack to seep through, turning things around in ways no drill ever could.
Some have embraced this easily, making capital their god; others struggle with it, seeking answers, peace, and even solace in spirituality.
Despite all the advancements and conveniences progress has provided, people today are unhappy, alienated, tired, and exhausted.
It seems to me that we are unhappier, more exhausted, and more disconnected than ever before.
We have distanced ourselves from nature, from God, from one another, and in part, from our very essence.
Is progress a revolution that will eventually consume its own children?
P.S. I hesitated between posting this in Philosophy or Spirituality, but I decided Spirituality was the better fit.
If the moderators feel another subforum is more appropriate, I have no objection to moving it.

But honestly, we need a massive amount. I think all this relentless "progress" just proves that point—if we actually only needed the basics, we'd still be out there gathering fruit 😁

Nancy Peterson3 said:But honestly, we need a massive amount. I think all this relentless "progress" just proves that point—if we actually only needed the basics, we'd still be out there gathering fruit 😁

Now, that is an interesting thesis, though it is phrased rather curtly. I would appreciate it if you could expand on that point a bit more.

Ronald Rogers27 said:You women... when you phrase it like that, it sounds almost sweet: one of the implicit motivations within a complicated incentive mechanism. 😍

My view is that a Man needs to distance himself first. He needs to sort out his own context and find peace within himself before he can truly integrate with society. A Man who breaks free from those external pressures is way more motivated and fulfilled than someone trying to survive in a broken community, clinging to the illusion that he's actually in control of his life.

I wasn't trying to criticize you. I just wanted to point out that you might be unconsciously adopting my ideas within this whole complex spiritual motivation thing. 😬

Ronald Rogers27

As I mentioned, I am not in favor of alienation. I absorb a great deal from my environment—both consciously and unconsciously—process it, and I find that perfectly acceptable.
Despite the fact that society doesn't always cater to my whims, I am a social creature at heart.

On the other hand, if you truly want to actually alienate yourself, assuming this isn't just an act or a pose, it seems you would have to stop posting on this forum entirely. It is otherwise inevitable that people will influence you, just as you influence them.

slymaker9 said:Now, that is an interesting thesis, though it is phrased rather curtly. I would appreciate it if you could expand on that point a bit more.

I feel the same way 😬—that’s really just the starting point for my broader theory. 😁

What can I say? Honestly, it seems we’re never quite satisfied. 🤷 Maybe I’m overthinking things and applying this whole philosophy to trivial matters, but it feels like people are never happy with "enough"—they've never been. There's always this constant drive to get more, and more, and more. Whether it's pure curiosity or something else entirely, I'm not sure; I just think the hardest part is learning to be content with what we have. That’s why I’m focusing on that one specific sentence of yours—it just doesn't seem to hold up to scrutiny. 🤔

Nancy Peterson3 said:I feel the same way 😬—that’s really just the starting point for my broader theory. 😁

What can I say? Honestly, it seems we’re never quite satisfied. 🤷 Maybe I’m overthinking things and applying this whole philosophy to trivial matters, but it feels like people are never happy with "enough"—they've never been. There's always this constant drive to get more, and more, and more. Whether it's pure curiosity or something else entirely, I'm not sure; I just think the hardest part is learning to be content with what we have. That’s why I’m focusing on that one specific sentence of yours—it just doesn't seem to hold up to scrutiny. 🤔

I don't think we can make a blanket statement here.
Certain individuals are more ambitious, greedier, more inquisitive, more intelligent, or braver—they act as pioneers and pull the rest of society toward what they perceive as a goal. Meanwhile, others are often simply forced to adapt to the reality that has already been established.

slymaker9 said:I don't think we can make a blanket statement here.
Certain individuals are more ambitious, greedier, more inquisitive, more intelligent, or braver—they act as pioneers and pull the rest of society toward what they perceive as a goal. Meanwhile, others are often simply forced to adapt to the reality that has already been established.

And one could easily just isolate themselves and pull away from the rest of society 😁 I’m thinking of various retreats, monasteries, or even communes...

Actually, I’ve lost my train of thought here 🤔 I was talking about a very human trait I notice all around me—specifically that "the human heart always needs something; it's never truly satisfied" and that this exact impulse is what drove the "progress"—or rather, the evolution—of our modern American civilization 🤷

The truth is, we don't actually need much—three meals a day is probably overkill, you can get through a day without the internet, you can even sleep on a wooden floor... yet, because of that constant drive to improve, we've arrived at this age of convenience, technology, and scientific advancement.

Every Man carries an inherent desire for both material success and spiritual fulfillment.
The urge to accumulate stuff has been part of our DNA forever—everything from hoarding bones in a cave to chasing modern status symbols. But there’s a catch today: we tend to overlook what actually matters. We forget about spiritual wealth, which is the only thing capable of providing lasting happiness. In my view, that’s the only kind of prosperity truly worthy of the title.

Charles Howard said:Every Man carries an inherent desire for both material success and spiritual fulfillment.
The urge to accumulate stuff has been part of our DNA forever—everything from hoarding bones in a cave to chasing modern status symbols. But there’s a catch today: we tend to overlook what actually matters. We forget about spiritual wealth, which is the only thing capable of providing lasting happiness. In my view, that’s the only kind of prosperity truly worthy of the title.

Personally, I feel like that's all just fairy tales for kids—it seems to me people just use that talk to line their own pockets.😁

Sorry, but could someone please list the actual qualities of a "spiritual" person—in an everyday, real-world setting—that would make them any different from someone like me? How exactly is that person wealthier or happier, while I'm somehow left behind?

Nancy Peterson3 said:And one could easily just isolate themselves and pull away from the rest of society 😁 I’m thinking of various retreats, monasteries, or even communes...

Actually, I’ve lost my train of thought here 🤔 I was talking about a very human trait I notice all around me—specifically that "the human heart always needs something; it's never truly satisfied" and that this exact impulse is what drove the "progress"—or rather, the evolution—of our modern American civilization 🤷

The truth is, we don't actually need much—three meals a day is probably overkill, you can get through a day without the internet, you can even sleep on a wooden floor... yet, because of that constant drive to improve, we've arrived at this age of convenience, technology, and scientific advancement.

Exactly. So the question remains: have we overstepped at some point? Has the beast broken free from its leash, dominating us until we became slaves to it while it pulls the strings? Or does the individual still hold the reins? Is progress simply a revolution destined to consume its own children?

slymaker9 said:Exactly. So the question remains: have we overstepped at some point? Has the beast broken free from its leash, dominating us until we became slaves to it while it pulls the strings? Or does the individual still hold the reins? Is progress simply a revolution destined to consume its own children?

My great-great-great-great-grandchild will probably be the one to answer that question for you...😁