Man, society, progress, and spirituality

slymaker9 said:At the end of the day, all a person truly needs is very little.
One of my favorite thinkers and philosophers, Toma Bebić, captures this beautifully in this song (though unfortunately, I could only find the version covered by Banov):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6v5xuBSI7T4

What do we actually need to survive? Food, clothing, shelter, understanding, acceptance, and love from others—that’s it. Some people also require spirituality, while others feel they don't need it at all.

If we look back at history, people worked hard to secure their basic necessities. Once those needs were met, it brought them a genuine sense of satisfaction, achievement, and fulfillment.

So, what has progress actually given us? While life is easier and more convenient in many ways, we are constantly bombarded with information. We are told we can't live without every single thing on the market, and we are perpetually categorized, ranked, and labeled.
Essentially, we have been turned into tools serving capital. Even those who possess wealth are, in a sense, instruments of it, because at some point, money takes control and usurps power over its supposed owner.
Capital has become both a god and a tyrant on this earth. Like water, it always finds a crack to seep through, turning things around in ways no drill ever could.
Some have embraced this easily, making capital their god; others struggle with it, seeking answers, peace, and even solace in spirituality.
Despite all the advancements and conveniences progress has provided, people today are unhappy, alienated, tired, and exhausted.
It seems to me that we are unhappier, more exhausted, and more disconnected than ever before.
We have distanced ourselves from nature, from God, from one another, and in part, from our very essence.
Is progress a revolution that will eventually consume its own children?
P.S. I hesitated between posting this in Philosophy or Spirituality, but I decided Spirituality was the better fit.
If the moderators feel another subforum is more appropriate, I have no objection to moving it.

I think that's a pretty romanticized view of the past.
I don't buy the idea that people were more fulfilled back then—there's no reason to believe that. They suffered and struggled just like we do today. It was survival of the fittest, plain and simple. Occasional wars, droughts, famines—it’s essentially the same as what we face now.

So, what has progress actually given us? Sure, life is easier and more convenient in many ways, but we're being bombarded with information. We're constantly told we can't live without every single thing on the market, all while being categorized, ranked, and labeled.
At its core, we've been turned into tools serving capital. Even those who hold the wealth end up as instruments of it—eventually, the money takes control, overriding the person who supposedly owns it.
Capital has become God and the whip on this planet.

remained... capital has always driven the world.

Modern man is unhappy, alienated, exhausted, and drained, despite all the massive advancements that progress has provided.
To me, it seems we are more miserable, more tired, more depleted, and more isolated than ever before.
We've severed our ties with nature, with God, with other people, and ultimately, with our own essence.
Is progress a revolution that will eventually consume its own children?

The only thing that strikes me as truly critical is this growing detachment from one another. That's where the real trouble lies if it continues... humans are social creatures; we crave community. Solitude is rare for a reason.

I can't believe I'm even saying this, but today was one of those days where everything just felt heavy. You know that feeling? Like you're walking through mud? I spent most of the afternoon staring at my laptop in a coffee shop in downtown Chicago, just trying to find some focus, but my mind was miles away. Sometimes life just hits you with a wave of exhaustion that sleep won't fix. It’s tough. Just wanted to get that off my chest. Ronald Rogers27 says:
If society actually wanted to work on making sure a Man doesn't lose his way, they'd have to start differently. Alienated. Look, if we actually want to foster social integration and build some real cohesion in this country, we have to start focusing on the spiritual development of the Man. It’s that simple. We need to lean into that kind of engagement if we want anything to stick. (Man, I'm struggling to find the right words for this in English!) 😵We need to pull everyone into every part of society—but not just to force them to fit in. We should be celebrating what makes them unique. It’s about treating diversity like an actual asset. We could do this through things like open community dialogues or practicing a kind of deep ecumenism that respects all different religious traditions and their spirituality. That's how you actually build something meaningful.

Is that Oz-style community of yours actually moving toward helping people find true spirituality? And more importantly, is the rest of America heading in that direction?

Spirituality?!

I agree that any society needs to integrate people while respecting their differences. But let’s be real—is that actually possible in any society? I don't think so. Beyond just being respectful, I believe society should go a step further. We need to actively encourage people and guide them toward different paths of spirituality. If we can push for that kind of true diversification, we might actually elevate our entire culture to a much higher level.

Dialogue? In modern societies, interest is the language everyone speaks. But in those pessimistic Eastern societies—the kind you see in places like Mexico or even here in America—blackmail is the only language people know. It’s extortion on every single level. We're talking everything from the Id, through the EGO, all the way up to the superego. And you're seriously trying to talk to me about social spirituality? 😬

Spirituality is a deeply personal thing. It’s always been that way throughout history, and honestly, it probably always will be. Our society is just built on material foundations. By design, those structures don't exactly foster true spirituality—unless they can twist it into something hollow that serves their own nobility of interest.

Truth hurts, doesn't it, tonight? 😍

Lisa Morales4 said:Off-topic.

Do you want some actual, solid arguments for why social inclusion needs to be baked into an economy that’s actually growing? 🙄

If society actually wanted to address the issue of preventing people from being dehumanized, they'd need to take a much more proactive approach. I feel like a total stranger here. Look, we really need to be pushing for genuine social integration and cohesion. The best way to actually achieve that is by focusing on the development of a person's spiritual growth. It’s about meaningful engagement, not just surface-level interaction. 😵The goal isn't just about folding people into society—it’s about weaving them into every layer of our community in a way that actually honors who they are. We shouldn't be aiming for mere integration; we should be celebrating individuality and uniqueness as a fundamental strength. This means rolling out real strategies, like fostering genuine participatory dialogue or embracing a deep kind of ecumenism—essentially a religious pluralism that shines a light on various spiritual traditions rather than smoothing them over.

We’re living in such an illuminating era of creativity right now—a time where the divine truly meets the human within the embrace of an inclusive society.

It’s honestly pointless to even attempt a discussion about this in a language that doesn't even have a word for the concept.

It’s just starting to dawn here, and it’s a chilly 35 degrees. I finally finished all the laundry, so once I hang everything up, I’m heading out to the park with my little fur babies. LOL, it definitely keeps me active. 👍
I’ll probably find myself reflecting on John Doe and his experiences, especially that deep-seated desire he has to just pull away from everything.

A divine encounter with a Man? In the most powerful nation on Earth, where some idiot like George W. Bush held the reins for eight years—nearly a hundred months of pure chaos?! 😂

Yeah, George W. Bush is such a soulful, spiritual guy. People used to call him "Soul-Man" for a reason. 😬

Ronald Rogers27

Lisa Morales4 said:I'm not sure how many people here actually grasp how what's written above fits perfectly into our topic—the essence of a person, their spirituality, their role in society, the struggle to establish any real dialogue, and the sheer lack of progress that keeps turning us all into savages.
🙄

I don't know... With my last partner, we had this incredible mental and emotional connection. Even our spirituality was perfectly aligned, which was honestly shocking because we didn't share a single thing in terms of how we approached personal growth or spiritual development.

It happened just now, and it's never happening again. It had to break. The situation we were living in was just too complicated, and there are so many layers to these things that you simply can't predict every connection or every emotional neural pathway. Those links are gone for good now.

Onward. 😬

Ronald Rogers27

Lisa Morales4 said:I'm happy for the folks mentioned above, but it sounds like the "healthy" ones have to wait until they become disabled just to be deemed worthy of inclusivity treatment...

That feels like genuine discrimination against the able-bodied.

It’s honestly no wonder that _nobody_ can tell the difference between a woman who is (and would actually be worth knowing) capable of tough dignified self-sufficiency, versus one who is just overwhelmingly "full of herself."

I don't know... Can you even tell the difference, tt? Between spirituality and 50/50? 😍

Ronald Rogers27

_nobody_

George W. Bush doesn't build community; if anything, he breaks it down.

Communication? We actually shape our own reality through dialogue.

Shared interests? The sisters serving Mother Teresa are bound by a purpose that money simply can't buy, no matter how many banks you look into.

The truth? It might sting or cause physical pain, but that’s just the body—the same body that spent half my life racing ahead of me and is now trying in slow motion to keep pace.
That’s why I look toward a truth that doesn't wound or scar the soul, but instead sets us free. 🙂

Quincy:

It had to fall.

Having such weak faith in those things...

Only a house built on sand is going to collapse, otherwise...

Quincy:

I don't know... Can you tell the difference, Lisa Morales4? Between spirituality and 50:50?

I'm not sure either... the answer lies in the dialogue.

I can’t exactly fix your (obvious) stupidity, so... maybe let your dogs handle it instead. 😬

Ronald Rogers27

Ronald Rogers27 said:I can’t exactly fix your (obvious) stupidity, so... maybe let your dogs handle it instead. 😬

Ronald Rogers27

Thanks for the compliment 😢
I still like you anyway, so deal with it 🙂

EDIT
Please don't delete this
This isn't a personal rant; it's more like a spiritual testimony from the other side of the web

Lisa Morales4 said:_nobody_

George W. Bush doesn't build community; if anything, he breaks it down.

Communication? We actually shape our own reality through dialogue.

Shared interests? The sisters serving Mother Teresa are bound by a purpose that money simply can't buy, no matter how many banks you look into.

The truth? It might sting or cause physical pain, but that’s just the body—the same body that spent half my life racing ahead of me and is now trying in slow motion to keep pace.
That’s why I look toward a truth that doesn't wound or scar the soul, but instead sets us free. 🙂

Quincy:

It had to fall.

Having such weak faith in those things...

Only a house built on sand is going to collapse, otherwise...

Quincy:

I don't know... Can you tell the difference, Lisa Morales4? Between spirituality and 50:50?

I'm not sure either... the answer lies in the dialogue.

That’s why that connection—it’s karmic, a permanent goodbye. Exactly because of what was mentioned. My word is SOLID AS ROCK.

Lisa Morales4 said:_nobody_

George W. Bush doesn't build community; if anything, he breaks it down.

Communication? We actually shape our own reality through dialogue.

Shared interests? The sisters serving Mother Teresa are bound by a purpose that money simply can't buy, no matter how many banks you look into.

The truth? It might sting or cause physical pain, but that’s just the body—the same body that spent half my life racing ahead of me and is now trying in slow motion to keep pace.
That’s why I look toward a truth that doesn't wound or scar the soul, but instead sets us free. 🙂

Quincy:

It had to fall.

Having such weak faith in those things...

Only a house built on sand is going to collapse, otherwise...

Quincy:

I don't know... Can you tell the difference, Lisa Morales4? Between spirituality and 50:50?

I'm not sure either... the answer lies in the dialogue.

Sometimes a dialogue is just a monologue disguised as a conversation... tt! 😍

And yeah, you only love yourself, and nobody else... Honestly, that's not even a bad way to live!

(As for your total lack of internet etiquette, we'll save that for another time!) 😬

Ronald Rogers27

Ronald Rogers27 said:That’s why that connection—it’s karmic, a permanent goodbye. Exactly because of what was mentioned. My word is SOLID AS ROCK.

Sometimes a dialogue is just a monologue disguised as a conversation... tt! 😍

And yeah, you only love yourself, and nobody else... Honestly, that's not even a bad way to live!

(As for your total lack of internet etiquette, we'll save that for another time!) 😬

Ronald Rogers27

Well, you guys will probably cross paths again, maybe on some other planet altogether...
but your imperfect backside will stay right here, built into some granite benchtops kitchen counter

Dialogue can sometimes be just a monologue, or rather, an emphasized monologue... tt! 😍

Exactly. But when two such "monologues" face off head-on, the interaction naturally moves mountains, and a real dialogue is born.

And yeah, you only love yourself, and only yourself...

A trick. A beautiful trick, but at least I'm successful at something, I guess.

(As for the fact that you don't know how to behave online, we'll save that for another time!) 😬

I am Net

Lisa Morales4 said:Well, you guys will probably cross paths again, maybe on some other planet altogether...
but your imperfect backside will stay right here, built into some granite benchtops kitchen counter

Dialogue can sometimes be just a monologue, or rather, an emphasized monologue... tt! 😍

Exactly. But when two such "monologues" face off head-on, the interaction naturally moves mountains, and a real dialogue is born.

And yeah, you only love yourself, and only yourself...

A trick. A beautiful trick, but at least I'm successful at something, I guess.

(As for the fact that you don't know how to behave online, we'll save that for another time!) 😬

I am Net

No way. We aren't meeting again. Not in this life, and definitely not in any future ones. I'll make sure of it. I've got some otherworldly powers of my own. 🙂

Her physical self is already a light-year ahead of her... and that gap just keeps widening. The body wins every time. Honestly, ID is one hell of a drug.

Lisa Morales4 said:Well, you guys will probably cross paths again, maybe on some other planet altogether...
but your imperfect backside will stay right here, built into some granite benchtops kitchen counter

Dialogue can sometimes be just a monologue, or rather, an emphasized monologue... tt! 😍

Exactly. But when two such "monologues" face off head-on, the interaction naturally moves mountains, and a real dialogue is born.

And yeah, you only love yourself, and only yourself...

A trick. A beautiful trick, but at least I'm successful at something, I guess.

(As for the fact that you don't know how to behave online, we'll save that for another time!) 😬

I am Net

Let's save those kinds of pleasures for another time. I was talking about the look of my (not so) perfect dOOpeta.

Lisa Morales4 said:Well, you guys will probably cross paths again, maybe on some other planet altogether...
but your imperfect backside will stay right here, built into some granite benchtops kitchen counter

Dialogue can sometimes be just a monologue, or rather, an emphasized monologue... tt! 😍

Exactly. But when two such "monologues" face off head-on, the interaction naturally moves mountains, and a real dialogue is born.

And yeah, you only love yourself, and only yourself...

A trick. A beautiful trick, but at least I'm successful at something, I guess.

(As for the fact that you don't know how to behave online, we'll save that for another time!) 😬

I am Net

You need spirituality for a discussion to even start. A dialogue is a whole series of steps.

Lisa Morales4 said:Well, you guys will probably cross paths again, maybe on some other planet altogether...
but your imperfect backside will stay right here, built into some granite benchtops kitchen counter

Dialogue can sometimes be just a monologue, or rather, an emphasized monologue... tt! 😍

Exactly. But when two such "monologues" face off head-on, the interaction naturally moves mountains, and a real dialogue is born.

And yeah, you only love yourself, and only yourself...

A trick. A beautiful trick, but at least I'm successful at something, I guess.

(As for the fact that you don't know how to behave online, we'll save that for another time!) 😬

I am Net

If you admit it, you're halfway there. 😍

Lisa Morales4 said:Well, you guys will probably cross paths again, maybe on some other planet altogether...
but your imperfect backside will stay right here, built into some granite benchtops kitchen counter

Dialogue can sometimes be just a monologue, or rather, an emphasized monologue... tt! 😍

Exactly. But when two such "monologues" face off head-on, the interaction naturally moves mountains, and a real dialogue is born.

And yeah, you only love yourself, and only yourself...

A trick. A beautiful trick, but at least I'm successful at something, I guess.

(As for the fact that you don't know how to behave online, we'll save that for another time!) 😬

I am Net

Glad to hear it. I am None. 😬

Ronald Rogers27

Ronald Rogers27 said:No way. We aren't meeting again. Not in this life, and definitely not in any future ones. I'll make sure of it. I've got some otherworldly powers of my own. 🙂

Her physical self is already a light-year ahead of her... and that gap just keeps widening. The body wins every time. Honestly, ID is one hell of a drug.

Let's save those kinds of pleasures for another time. I was talking about the look of my (not so) perfect dOOpeta.

You need spirituality for a discussion to even start. A dialogue is a whole series of steps.

If you admit it, you're halfway there. 😍

Glad to hear it. I am None. 😬

Ronald Rogers27

😂 Quincy with those otherworldly abilities 🤣 😍 and I like it

It makes sense that you won't cross paths then, because without those specific gifts, that soul wouldn't even be able to find its way 🙂

A jet that crashed doing exactly what it warned against: causing cheap, avoidable complications for us mere mortals on the ground.

placidranger said:I think that's a pretty romanticized view of the past.
I don't buy the idea that people were more fulfilled back then—there's no reason to believe that. They suffered and struggled just like we do today. It was survival of the fittest, plain and simple. Occasional wars, droughts, famines—it’s essentially the same as what we face now.

So, what has progress actually given us? Sure, life is easier and more convenient in many ways, but we're being bombarded with information. We're constantly told we can't live without every single thing on the market, all while being categorized, ranked, and labeled.
At its core, we've been turned into tools serving capital. Even those who hold the wealth end up as instruments of it—eventually, the money takes control, overriding the person who supposedly owns it.
Capital has become God and the whip on this planet.

remained... capital has always driven the world.

Modern man is unhappy, alienated, exhausted, and drained, despite all the massive advancements that progress has provided.
To me, it seems we are more miserable, more tired, more depleted, and more isolated than ever before.
We've severed our ties with nature, with God, with other people, and ultimately, with our own essence.
Is progress a revolution that will eventually consume its own children?

The only thing that strikes me as truly critical is this growing detachment from one another. That's where the real trouble lies if it continues... humans are social creatures; we crave community. Solitude is rare for a reason.

People performed much more physical labor than we do today. Humans are biologically designed for a combination of physical and mental exertion. That is why people pay expensive memberships for gyms and aerobics classes nowadays. Back then, people faced genuine existential crises. Today, some people experience a crisis over the specific shade or tone of their hair color. It isn't disputable that mortality rates were higher, child mortality was greater, and life was objectively less comfortable... But today, people constantly obsess over trivialities and make a drama out of every minor inconvenience.
In those days, problems were real problems. Now, we are anxious about all sorts of nonsense, just as if our only cow had died and we had six kids to feed at home.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64K2gfKunog
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpQyg9z14a4
For instance, my grandfather lost his leg in a quarry and simply carried on with his life; he went to the fields, worked, and provided for the family. I am not saying it wasn't a tragedy or that it didn't impact the whole family, but he kept living.
Interestingly, I recently met the grandson of the owner of that same quarry, and it turns out he also lost a leg in that same quarry.
Life was harder, less comfortable, and crueler, but it was more natural and less artificial.
Today, everyone claims to be stressed, and they are—due to an excess of everything (demands from others, desires, lack of time, information overload) and the sheer velocity of modern life.
Previously, you were stressed due to legitimate, natural reasons: a death in the family, losing your livelihood, facing violence, or falling ill...
Quincy:

remained... and capitalism was already driving the country.

True, but it didn't have the speed we have now. Modern technology has massively amplified capital and its mobility and penetration.

I think the only significant issue is the isolation of individuals from one another. That is what could cause real problems if it continues... humans are social creatures built for community, and solitude is rare.

Then there are environmental issues (pollution, water purity, ozone...), increased life expectancy affecting pension and healthcare systems, and modern viral diseases...
🤷

Edit: Looking strictly at the role of offspring, I must say that the social standing of women today is incomparably better; there is no debate about that.

Nancy Peterson3 said:Personally, I feel like that's all just fairy tales for kids—it seems to me people just use that talk to line their own pockets.😁

Sorry, but could someone please list the actual qualities of a "spiritual" person—in an everyday, real-world setting—that would make them any different from someone like me? How exactly is that person wealthier or happier, while I'm somehow left behind?

It seems that way to me too. Furthermore, there’s this frequent insinuation within spiritual circles that intuition is somehow distinct—even contrary—to intelligence. What is intelligence, exactly? It is the capacity to navigate new situations, the ability to solve problems, the sensitivity to recognize them... even the ability to "invent" complex problems just to devise sophisticated solutions when things are going well. Therefore, intuition *is* intelligence; intelligence is mental acuity and insight. Since spirituality is ostensibly based on some shallow preconception of intuition, it serves merely as a smokescreen for lower capability and diminished intelligence—because a truly intelligent person is necessarily more spiritual. And what happens next? How could types like Coelho, Tolle, various Cardinals, priests, psychics, Buddhas, gurus, or any other "ascetic" advocates of a spirituality that excludes everything (which it does by declaring itself "spiritual") manage to fleece their little flock? There is no greater spirituality than simply being oneself. 😁 If these so-called believers actually read the New Testament, they would see that Jesus was essentially saying the same thing—great minds think alike 😍...

I honestly can't believe how fast this week is flying by. It feels like I just sat down for Monday morning coffee and suddenly we're already staring down the barrel of the weekend. Time really does have a mind of its own sometimes. kaže:
😂 NJet with those supernatural abilities. 🤣 😍 I'm a fan.

I'm not. You hear me? 😬

Lisa Morales4 said:😂 Quincy with those otherworldly abilities 🤣 😍 and I like it

It makes sense that you won't cross paths then, because without those specific gifts, that soul wouldn't even be able to find its way 🙂

No pain, no gain. It’s a cliché because it’s true. Real spiritual growth usually comes through some serious suffering, though it’s never that simple to explain. This was my first karmic relationship, and man, did it give me everything. I’m actually grateful for it. It had one clear purpose: to unlock my right brain. Now, I see things so much more clearly. I can simulate potential future scenarios in four dimensions, almost like I'm peering right through the wall of reality.

Lisa Morales4 said:A jet that crashed doing exactly what it warned against: causing cheap, avoidable complications for us mere mortals on the ground.

Life is just the Animal Kingdom, and honestly, we’re tripping over it every single day. 😬

Ronald Rogers27

briskraven28 said:It seems that way to me too. Furthermore, there’s this frequent insinuation within spiritual circles that intuition is somehow distinct—even contrary—to intelligence. What is intelligence, exactly? It is the capacity to navigate new situations, the ability to solve problems, the sensitivity to recognize them... even the ability to "invent" complex problems just to devise sophisticated solutions when things are going well. Therefore, intuition *is* intelligence; intelligence is mental acuity and insight. Since spirituality is ostensibly based on some shallow preconception of intuition, it serves merely as a smokescreen for lower capability and diminished intelligence—because a truly intelligent person is necessarily more spiritual. And what happens next? How could types like Coelho, Tolle, various Cardinals, priests, psychics, Buddhas, gurus, or any other "ascetic" advocates of a spirituality that excludes everything (which it does by declaring itself "spiritual") manage to fleece their little flock? There is no greater spirituality than simply being oneself. 😁 If these so-called believers actually read the New Testament, they would see that Jesus was essentially saying the same thing—great minds think alike 😍...

Since standard IQ tests primarily measure logical-mathematical and sometimes verbal-linguistic abilities, everyday conversation has conditioned us to view those specific traits as the sole definition of intelligence. That represents intelligence in the classical sense. When we look at intuition, researchers attempt to measure it through specialized testing, yet they rarely include it in mathematical or verbal metrics; instead, it is occasionally categorized under bodily-kinesthetic intelligence.

If spirituality is supposedly based on some superficial notion of intuition, then it serves as nothing more than a smokescreen for lower cognitive ability and diminished intelligence, because a highly intelligent person would inherently be more spiritual. And what is the result? How could figures like Coelho, Tolle, various Cardinals, priests, fortune tellers, Buddhas, or other "ascetics" and proponents of this exclusionary spirituality—which excludes everything by labeling itself "spiritual"—ever profit from their followers? There is no greater spirituality than being true to oneself. 😁 If these so-called believers actually read the New Testament, they would see that Jesus was essentially saying the same thing (great minds think alike😍).

I don't quite follow the bolded section regarding the superficiality of intuition acting as a cover; I have never encountered the argument that intelligence and ability are inversely proportional to spirituality. I have heard calls for humility and renunciation, but certainly not the claim that they share an inverse relationship.
Regarding intuition: even if we aren't entirely certain of its exact mechanics, that doesn't make it a superficial preconception. The issue might simply be the difficulty of verbalizing certain experiences.
Take vision, for example. It isn't easy to describe every single detail of what a person sees using only words; it is far simpler to present one's perception to others through a painting.

slymaker9 said:Since standard IQ tests primarily measure logical-mathematical and sometimes verbal-linguistic abilities, everyday conversation has conditioned us to view those specific traits as the sole definition of intelligence. That represents intelligence in the classical sense. When we look at intuition, researchers attempt to measure it through specialized testing, yet they rarely include it in mathematical or verbal metrics; instead, it is occasionally categorized under bodily-kinesthetic intelligence.

If spirituality is supposedly based on some superficial notion of intuition, then it serves as nothing more than a smokescreen for lower cognitive ability and diminished intelligence, because a highly intelligent person would inherently be more spiritual. And what is the result? How could figures like Coelho, Tolle, various Cardinals, priests, fortune tellers, Buddhas, or other "ascetics" and proponents of this exclusionary spirituality—which excludes everything by labeling itself "spiritual"—ever profit from their followers? There is no greater spirituality than being true to oneself. 😁 If these so-called believers actually read the New Testament, they would see that Jesus was essentially saying the same thing (great minds think alike😍).

I don't quite follow the bolded section regarding the superficiality of intuition acting as a cover; I have never encountered the argument that intelligence and ability are inversely proportional to spirituality. I have heard calls for humility and renunciation, but certainly not the claim that they share an inverse relationship.
Regarding intuition: even if we aren't entirely certain of its exact mechanics, that doesn't make it a superficial preconception. The issue might simply be the difficulty of verbalizing certain experiences.
Take vision, for example. It isn't easy to describe every single detail of what a person sees using only words; it is far simpler to present one's perception to others through a painting.

My point is that people who label themselves as "spiritual" often discard anything that doesn't fit their preconceived notions of spirituality—for instance, when Shakiri claims she isn't spiritual, I actually find her quite so because of her intellect. They tend to pivot to "rationality" the moment they realize they can't win an argument logically—it's similar to how Quincy writes, though I'm only drawing that parallel to clarify my thought process, stripping away the parts that remain obscure to me and turning that fuzziness into something vaguely defined as "intuition." But intuition isn't fog; it's clear, piercing, and perceptive—and when it's truly pure, it can actually be shaped into a form of expression.
Painting isn't necessarily any easier—beyond years of mastering the tools, you need more than just sight; you need to know how to interpret what you see, since you can't cram every single detail into a canvas without losing the point. That's a much longer process than just talking—unless, of course, you're writing a novel.
Ultimately, I agree with Shakiri that humans need more; we need a challenge to truly grow. You can't achieve that if you think you already have everything you need or if you're completely satisfied—which is exactly what this kind of spirituality aims for: total contentment or peace. It’s like taking a sedative; you aren't actually at peace, you're just numb—or perhaps you've just offloaded your restlessness onto some higher power, sweeping the problem under the rug rather than actually solving it.

briskraven28 said:My point is that people who label themselves as "spiritual" often discard anything that doesn't fit their preconceived notions of spirituality—for instance, when Shakiri claims she isn't spiritual, I actually find her quite so because of her intellect. They tend to pivot to "rationality" the moment they realize they can't win an argument logically—it's similar to how Quincy writes, though I'm only drawing that parallel to clarify my thought process, stripping away the parts that remain obscure to me and turning that fuzziness into something vaguely defined as "intuition." But intuition isn't fog; it's clear, piercing, and perceptive—and when it's truly pure, it can actually be shaped into a form of expression.
Painting isn't necessarily any easier—beyond years of mastering the tools, you need more than just sight; you need to know how to interpret what you see, since you can't cram every single detail into a canvas without losing the point. That's a much longer process than just talking—unless, of course, you're writing a novel.
Ultimately, I agree with Shakiri that humans need more; we need a challenge to truly grow. You can't achieve that if you think you already have everything you need or if you're completely satisfied—which is exactly what this kind of spirituality aims for: total contentment or peace. It’s like taking a sedative; you aren't actually at peace, you're just numb—or perhaps you've just offloaded your restlessness onto some higher power, sweeping the problem under the rug rather than actually solving it.

I suppose all of this depends on individual traits. We all possess varying degrees of different types of intelligence, but almost no one has them all highly developed.
When someone struggles to articulate a thought, there are two primary possibilities:
1. They don't actually understand the concept at any level.
2. They grasp the abstract idea perfectly fine but lack the ability to translate it into linguistic symbols or find the right words.

I also believe that everyone possesses some form of spiritual dimension.

The same applies to how much challenge a person requires. It is entirely individual and, in my view, has less to do with spirituality and more to do with personality traits—specifically, one's level of ambition.

So, Vertigo, let’s speculate for a second. What’s your take? Is technological progress going to crush us, or will we somehow evolve into geniuses capable of handling it all?

Personally, I consider myself an average person with average abilities. I approached this topic from that standpoint, which is also where most people sit. After all, those who know more are naturally better equipped to make accurate predictions.

slymaker9 said:So, Vertigo, let’s speculate for a second. What’s your take? Is technological progress going to crush us, or will we somehow evolve into geniuses capable of handling it all?

Personally, I consider myself an average person with average abilities. I approached this topic from that standpoint, which is also where most people sit. After all, those who know more are naturally better equipped to make accurate predictions.

Progress won't "crush" us—we'll be crushed by our own inability to adapt, which is far more likely than anyone actually stepping up... self-pity is easier than growth. And genius is purely relative; compared to some cosmic intelligence, we're just basic idiots, even if we feel brilliant compared to the bottom of the barrel. We'll probably go out because of something trivial—an asteroid or the sun burning out—rather than tech itself. If we kill each other, it won't be because of progress, but again, due to sheer incompetence.
Evolution isn't about reaching a destination where everything is handled; it's about the struggle itself—the spirit of the challenge.
eros equals longing.
I find it hard to believe you actually aim for being an "average" person. Who even defines such a category?...