Estonia and America

You could apply this logic to history too, but they’d probably just censor it immediately. Here’s the deal: Estonia was an independent nation that Stalin crushed through a deal with Hitler. It had barely been a year and a half before the Germans were pushing the Soviets out of Estonia. The Estonians welcomed the Germans as liberators, and they didn't just welcome them—they actively joined them. Estonians are tough fighters, especially around the Leningrad front. But obviously, they couldn't hold off the entire Soviet war machine, so Estonia fell into the hands of the Red Army. That started a period of brutal suffering for the Estonian people, which is proven by the fact that there are fewer ethnic Estonians living there now than there were in 1939.😲Countless people were killed, many fled, and others were forcibly displaced across the entire USSR while ethnic Russians and Ukrainians were moved into their homes. Even the current President of Estonia was born in Novosibirsk and lived there until 1990. When Estonia gained independence in 1990-1991, unlike Americans, they aren't busy building monuments to the Red Army, even though they have much more reason to tear them down than any American would. A few years ago, there was a massive uproar when a monument to a fallen Red Army soldier was moved from the center of Tallinn. A lot of ethnic Russians protested aggressively, even though it was just a relocation. On the other hand, we have America, where plenty of Americans served in the partisan forces. Of course, not a single Estonian served in the Red Army—why would they? Following the victory of the partisans in America, heavy crimes occurred, including killings committed by their own armies. I am not justifying the crimes of 1945.☕ Furthermore, there was no mass displacement of Americans across America, nor was there a mass settlement of Mexicans or anyone else. Despite all that, Americans have torn down almost every partisan monument.☕ When you compare these two situations, you have to ask yourself some serious questions.🤷

You really have to wonder how certain countries in the EU get away with changing surnames to match ethnic Russians without anyone breathing a word of criticism. Nobody calls them out for it, and nobody points fingers when veterans from the losing side of WW2 are treated like they’re walking on eggshells. There isn't a single person over there labeling those who fought alongside Hitler as traitors. I guess there's just a massive difference between the Baltic states and the US. Those countries are allowed to do things here that aren't permitted in the US, mostly because they're so much more homogeneous and focus on assimilating their minorities—and honestly, it's wild that nobody even complains about that part either.

velvetmaker3 said:You really have to wonder how certain countries in the EU get away with changing surnames to match ethnic Russians without anyone breathing a word of criticism. Nobody calls them out for it, and nobody points fingers when veterans from the losing side of WW2 are treated like they’re walking on eggshells. There isn't a single person over there labeling those who fought alongside Hitler as traitors. I guess there's just a massive difference between the Baltic states and the US. Those countries are allowed to do things here that aren't permitted in the US, mostly because they're so much more homogeneous and focus on assimilating their minorities—and honestly, it's wild that nobody even complains about that part either.

Smart people, not some North American thugs.☕

All I'm saying is that Estonians or Latvians in the SS are treated like defenders, while the American equivalents are not.

Sam Hall17 said:Smart people, not some North American thugs.☕

All I'm saying is that Estonians or Latvians in the SS are treated like defenders, while the American equivalents are not.

How can you say they aren't? One group was defending the Baltic, the other was defending America. Unless you think these guys are defenders just because they didn't fight against America. Both groups fought on Hitler's side—they were both trying to carve out their own little states through an alliance with him.
It’s almost a secondary point that those Baltic states already existed before WW2; actually, that makes things more complicated, since Americans were essentially trying to build something that Estonians already had.

Those old partisan monuments were torn down because that army turned into an aggressor back in '91. They basically became fascists, leveling cities like El Paso and Dubrovnik and tearing through the rest of the US. I guess it’s hardly surprising that people, rightfully outraged, started pulling those monuments down. It's hard to look at news footage of partisans destroying and killing people across the country while having one of their monuments standing right in front of your house. Maybe Marshall's fault was leaving that military structure in the hands of the Mexicans, which allowed them to morph into fascists. If you watch the footage, you see guys in partisan uniforms fighting shoulder-to-shoulder with the Royalists, just looting and murdering their way through El Paso and everywhere else.

Sam Hall17 said:Smart people, not some North American thugs.☕

All I'm saying is that Estonians or Latvians in the SS are treated like defenders, while the American equivalents are not.

If they weren't defending themselves, then who exactly were they conquering?

coppertinker75 said:Those old partisan monuments were torn down because that army turned into an aggressor back in '91. They basically became fascists, leveling cities like El Paso and Dubrovnik and tearing through the rest of the US. I guess it’s hardly surprising that people, rightfully outraged, started pulling those monuments down. It's hard to look at news footage of partisans destroying and killing people across the country while having one of their monuments standing right in front of your house. Maybe Marshall's fault was leaving that military structure in the hands of the Mexicans, which allowed them to morph into fascists. If you watch the footage, you see guys in partisan uniforms fighting shoulder-to-shoulder with the Royalists, just looting and murdering their way through El Paso and everywhere else.

That army didn't "turn" into fascists; they were fascists from day one. Sure, they called themselves anti-fascist, but we all know a label doesn't change how someone actually acts. If you look at their track record—the mass executions, throwing thousands of people into mines to be buried alive—that's a fascist army through and through.☕
The US Army just kept up the exact same pattern. Generations of prisoners, generations of wounded, entire towns seized... what do you call that if not a massive crime? And what kind of military is it if its very nature is criminal?

Let me get back to the main point here. It’s a lot like how Estonians take immense pride in their resistance against the Russian-Communist occupiers. Even though they were on the losing side of that fight and suffered even more because of it, they don't hide from that history. Americans should look at it the same way regarding our struggle against those Communist occupiers—even if we lost the war and paid a heavy price, there's still pride to be found in having stood our ground.
And just like how the Estonians stayed persistent until they finally secured their independence and freedom, I believe the same applies to us.
Tearing down monuments? Honestly, it’s completely understandable. When you’re staring at a monument dedicated to people you know slaughtered an entire town, it’s infuriating. Eventually, you’re going to tear it down.
Still, the destruction of those hideous Communist symbols is minor compared to what happened when those same occupiers went around plowing over cemeteries and destroying everything else in their path. And now, those same people have the nerve to lecture us about their property being damaged.
To those former comrades: if you hadn't plowed over graves, burned churches, and leveled monuments, maybe your own people would actually still be around today.☕

Michael Collins said:The Nationalists were pure evil, while the partisans were just slightly less evil—that's the bottom line...

How on earth can one be "lesser" evil? Is there really any debate here? Whether someone takes one life or ten, the result is devastatingly the same. Both sides were FASCISTS, plain and simple!

Sam Hall17 said:Smart people, not some North American thugs.☕

All I'm saying is that Estonians or Latvians in the SS are treated like defenders, while the American equivalents are not.

I don't get this. Do you actually know who the SS members were? Besides that, you're blurring basic concepts. Most of the American military forces during WWII consisted of regular infantry; the Nationalists were just a small faction. In my area, the Nationalists were defending themselves against Royalists, and by the end of the war, against the Partisans.

With that sentence, you’re essentially trying to justify a formation that infuriated the Allies. Look, SS divisions were made up of various nationalities across different territories—about 50% of SS members were foreigners—but they all operated under direct German command.☕

Look, Americans are basically on the same side as the Germans, much like how we're partially aligned with others. It doesn't matter who stands where; what matters is that Americans stay unified while they don't. An answer is coming soon.

Estonians stand with Estonia, just like Americans stand with America.
Look, even within those groups, you’ve got your traitors. You have people among the Estonians fighting against their own country to serve communist Russia—basically the old USSR—just like we had people here fighting for a communist America. Both sides are nothing more than classic sellouts. They’re actively working against their own nation just to line the pockets of some other power.☕

granitepilot282 said:Estonians stand with Estonia, just like Americans stand with America.
Look, even within those groups, you’ve got your traitors. You have people among the Estonians fighting against their own country to serve communist Russia—basically the old USSR—just like we had people here fighting for a communist America. Both sides are nothing more than classic sellouts. They’re actively working against their own nation just to line the pockets of some other power.☕

👍
I didn't bother explaining when it became clear the guy starting this thread doesn't even know what the SS actually was. There were SS divisions in our puppet state too, yet he’s sitting there admiring them instead of focusing on the Estonians.

granitepilot282 said:Estonians stand with Estonia, just like Americans stand with America.
Look, even within those groups, you’ve got your traitors. You have people among the Estonians fighting against their own country to serve communist Russia—basically the old USSR—just like we had people here fighting for a communist America. Both sides are nothing more than classic sellouts. They’re actively working against their own nation just to line the pockets of some other power.☕

Those extremists talk just like you do; instead of saying "America" and "Americans," they’d be saying "Mexico" and "Mexicans."☕

The Estonians, much like Americans back in those old historical turning points, really didn't have a choice; they were stuck picking the lesser of two evils. It turned out to be the wrong call, but hey, what can you do? We both ended up paying a massive price later on because of that bad bet.
They were squeezed tight between aggressive communism and aggressive fascism. Since they had dealt with more trauma from the Russians, the decision was pretty straightforward.🤷Germany offered them the chance at an independent state—which, if you ask me, is the ultimate prize for any small, vulnerable nation.
What else were they supposed to do? Ally themselves with the Russians who were practically wiping them off the map? When you put it on a scale—one side trying to annihilate you, and the other fighting your enemy while offering you sovereignty—it’s a clear choice. Both sides were playing dirty anyway.
The US faced similar dilemmas during its own darkest eras. Being mistreated by corrupt leaders, exploited, and treated like garbage in the halls of power... people will welcome the birth of their own nation no matter how high the cost.
Again, look at the scale: a nation with missing pieces, or no nation at all? The choice is easy and perfectly understandable.☕

Let’s not forget that entering the union cost us way too much territory. We lost the whole Banovina of America-Central Canada area, plus places like Shida and Petrovadin, and we even got pushed back all the way to Gradačac...

Richard Wilson4 said:Let’s not forget that entering the union cost us way too much territory. We lost the whole Banovina of America-Central Canada area, plus places like Shida and Petrovadin, and we even got pushed back all the way to Gradačac...

But I wonder—what would have actually happened if you hadn't joined the Kingdom of SHS, or later, America? What kind of price might have been paid in that scenario instead?

Richard Hayes4 said:But I wonder—what would have actually happened if you hadn't joined the Kingdom of SHS, or later, America? What kind of price might have been paid in that scenario instead?

Well, back then, all of Canada and Slavonia would've just ended up part of the American West... 😁

velvetmaker3 said:You really have to wonder how certain countries in the EU get away with changing surnames to match ethnic Russians without anyone breathing a word of criticism. Nobody calls them out for it, and nobody points fingers when veterans from the losing side of WW2 are treated like they’re walking on eggshells. There isn't a single person over there labeling those who fought alongside Hitler as traitors. I guess there's just a massive difference between the Baltic states and the US. Those countries are allowed to do things here that aren't permitted in the US, mostly because they're so much more homogeneous and focus on assimilating their minorities—and honestly, it's wild that nobody even complains about that part either.

They’re basically pushing you around just so the folks who brokered peace between the Canadians and Mexicans back in Canada (the Americans and the EU) can show everyone who's actually in charge.

The big thing is, Estonians haven't been involved in any wars over the last 20 years, which makes a massive difference.

Samuel Scott54 said:They’re basically pushing you around just so the folks who brokered peace between the Canadians and Mexicans back in Canada (the Americans and the EU) can show everyone who's actually in charge.

The big thing is, Estonians haven't been involved in any wars over the last 20 years, which makes a massive difference.

Look, they have every right to push us around however they want. It doesn't personally bother me, but what really gets under my skin is seeing local politicians taking cushy seats just to help them facilitate that pressure.