Sexuality in spirituality

Sean Cruz, I am such an emotional person that I find it impossible to get anything done without my feelings involved—even things like posting on these forums🙄🙄🙄
I actually went into more detail about what I meant by that in some of my later posts, so do feel free to go back and give them a read...

Elizabeth Bishop4 said:But seriously, what does it even mean to be "self-sufficient" in that way? Could you maybe dive a little deeper into what you mean by that?

How? Well, it’s quite simple, really—you just learn to be whole on your own, realizing you don't strictly need another person to witness or share your most beautiful moments, because you can experience those joys entirely by yourself. You can explore your own sexuality, too, finding ways to make it feel absolutely incredible through self-discovery and deep exploration... and Andrew Sanchez572 is always sending me messages about exactly that. There is nothing wrong with that, and you can certainly feel fulfilled and find spiritual elevation through it. But—that isn't the whole truth. I truly believe that human beings are designed for partnership, not for total isolation. And I think that applies to our sexuality as well...
Perhaps it works for a limited season of life due to various circumstances, but it shouldn't be the default setting...

wiredbear2 said:How? Well, it’s quite simple, really—you just learn to be whole on your own, realizing you don't strictly need another person to witness or share your most beautiful moments, because you can experience those joys entirely by yourself. You can explore your own sexuality, too, finding ways to make it feel absolutely incredible through self-discovery and deep exploration... and Andrew Sanchez572 is always sending me messages about exactly that. There is nothing wrong with that, and you can certainly feel fulfilled and find spiritual elevation through it. But—that isn't the whole truth. I truly believe that human beings are designed for partnership, not for total isolation. And I think that applies to our sexuality as well...
Perhaps it works for a limited season of life due to various circumstances, but it shouldn't be the default setting...

But what happens if, say, you just can't find someone who actually fits? Does that mean you're basically sentenced to a life that feels incomplete or unhappy?

Sean Cruz said:Well, you wrote that yourself:

Sexual Magika and tantra aren't necessarily tied to emotions.

You can achieve that without even touching tantra, and honestly, you could stretch the timeline out much longer than what you’ve suggested here.

The core issue here is that people often gravitate toward tantra solely because they are chasing a specific byproduct, completely oblivious to the fact that the practice itself will fundamentally reshape their entire existence in ways they didn't anticipate. It’s the same pattern we see with other disciplines: individuals latch onto the secondary effects and suddenly find their whole lives turned upside down—essentially being 😁 when they never intended to be.

Now, I don't want to sound like I'm bragging, but... sure, it can take longer, but I have no interest in those marathon sessions that drag on for three hours or more.

Ryan Wilson2 said:The core issue here is that people often gravitate toward tantra solely because they are chasing a specific byproduct, completely oblivious to the fact that the practice itself will fundamentally reshape their entire existence in ways they didn't anticipate. It’s the same pattern we see with other disciplines: individuals latch onto the secondary effects and suddenly find their whole lives turned upside down—essentially being 😁 when they never intended to be.

Now, I don't want to sound like I'm bragging, but... sure, it can take longer, but I have no interest in those marathon sessions that drag on for three hours or more.

At least 5 hours. 🙂

But that includes everything else too—catching a movie, window shopping, doing some Tai Chi in the park, grabbing dinner, dodging pedestrians, hauling gear around, fixing a flat tire, or any other random chaos—plus a tea ceremony, a little argument, and then finally those last 10 minutes. 🙂 😈 🙂 😬

Nightside said:Beyond that, it’s honestly hilarious watching how much pop culture in the West obsesses over tantra. It’s usually just a convenient excuse for lazy impulses wrapped up in a flashy, "sexy" label. Even if you set aside the shallow versions—like "how to last longer" or "how to be a bedroom beast" to outdo some hardcore porn—the New Age wave has completely butchered this term. They strip it of all context until the whole thing boils down to this: read a couple of books, masturbate aimlessly, and convince yourself you’re a Tantrik. It’s basically like... well, it's a joke 😍

I couldn't agree more.

Elizabeth Bishop4 said:But what happens if, say, you just can't find someone who actually fits? Does that mean you're basically sentenced to a life that feels incomplete or unhappy?

Ultimately, it all comes down to you. You aren't condemned to anything unless you decide to sentence yourself to it...
After all, sexuality isn't just about another person, nor is it strictly limited to your own physical self. To me, it’s a much broader concept than that. It always involves you and someone—or something—else, even if that "something" doesn't have to be a physical presence standing right next to you. I mean, why do you think witches used to wander naked through the woods under a full moon? It's because there is something incredibly primal and sexy about that connection... the raw sexuality of the self facing off against the wildness of nature itself...😉

wiredbear2 said:To me, sex feels like such an inherently spontaneous need that any attempt to artificially ramp up sexual energy or intentionally provoke arousal feels, quite frankly, like a crime against the sanctity, purity, and innocence of love—both the love we hold for ourselves and the connection we share with a partner... In my view, any kind of calculated manipulation in that direction (whether it's magic or similar practices) essentially shuts the door on true spirituality. It’s only through pure spontaneity, that raw desire, and genuine affection for oneself and one's partner that we can ever reach a state of true, unadulterated ecstasy. Ultimately, all those dense, heavy theories regarding sexuality just boil down to those two simple elements, stretched out into hundreds of pages of unnecessary prose.

I couldn't agree more.🙏

Goodness, I wonder why posts of this nature aren't prohibited by the moderators? 😁
Could you perhaps articulate your thought process more clearly and, by the way, elaborate on exactly what point you are supporting and the reasoning behind it?
The previous post contains quite a bit of content, including several claims that are simply inaccurate...

Andrew Sanchez572 said:Goodness, I wonder why posts of this nature aren't prohibited by the moderators? 😁
Could you perhaps articulate your thought process more clearly and, by the way, elaborate on exactly what point you are supporting and the reasoning behind it?
The previous post contains quite a bit of content, including several claims that are simply inaccurate...

They aren't... unless the quote itself stretches on for miles...

because the previous post includes quite a bit of information, including some claims that just aren't accurate.

My dear Andrew Sanchez572, it is virtually impossible to discuss things here in terms of absolute right or wrong, because neither you nor I can provide scientific proof for the things we are asserting...
What we can really offer is merely our own subjective experience regarding the intersection of sexuality and spirituality...

wiredbear2, you’re absolutely right that an experience is inherently subjective; if it weren't, we wouldn't call it an experience in the first place.
However, you mentioned earlier that Magika excludes spirituality. This leads me to wonder... have you actually practiced Magika enough to have the firsthand experience of it excluding spirituality?
Because if you have, you didn't just say you struggle to connect Magika with spontaneity—which seems to be your main gateway to spiritual feeling—you claimed that Magika, as a whole, excludes spirituality (including love, spontaneity, and all those other things you listed).

To my mind, that assertion is fundamentally flawed, given that the core motto of Magika is:
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. Love is the law, love under will.

Therefore, it stands quite far from being anything involving coercion, a lack of love, a lack of spontaneity, or any of the other things you described...

Andrew Sanchez572 said:wiredbear2, you’re absolutely right that an experience is inherently subjective; if it weren't, we wouldn't call it an experience in the first place.
However, you mentioned earlier that Magika excludes spirituality. This leads me to wonder... have you actually practiced Magika enough to have the firsthand experience of it excluding spirituality?
Because if you have, you didn't just say you struggle to connect Magika with spontaneity—which seems to be your main gateway to spiritual feeling—you claimed that Magika, as a whole, excludes spirituality (including love, spontaneity, and all those other things you listed).

To my mind, that assertion is fundamentally flawed, given that the core motto of Magika is:
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. Love is the law, love under will.

Therefore, it stands quite far from being anything involving coercion, a lack of love, a lack of spontaneity, or any of the other things you described...

Whose Magika are we even discussing? Clearly, we are talking about the system of A. Crowley...😉
Within the specific framework of his vision of Magika, perhaps I am incorrect. But that is no different from me being "incorrect" in my perception of you. And just as you both might disagree with my perspective, I find myself at odds with yours too...
The same principle of subjectivity applies here, since my own practice of Magika doesn't necessarily fit within the boundaries of the system you're describing...

Andrew Sanchez572 said:wiredbear2, you’re absolutely right that an experience is inherently subjective; if it weren't, we wouldn't call it an experience in the first place.
However, you mentioned earlier that Magika excludes spirituality. This leads me to wonder... have you actually practiced Magika enough to have the firsthand experience of it excluding spirituality?
Because if you have, you didn't just say you struggle to connect Magika with spontaneity—which seems to be your main gateway to spiritual feeling—you claimed that Magika, as a whole, excludes spirituality (including love, spontaneity, and all those other things you listed).

To my mind, that assertion is fundamentally flawed, given that the core motto of Magika is:
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. Love is the law, love under will.

Therefore, it stands quite far from being anything involving coercion, a lack of love, a lack of spontaneity, or any of the other things you described...

No, it isn't that; rather, my will simply differs from yours. We are both merely acting according to our own respective wills...😉

wiredbear2 said:Whose Magika are we even discussing? Clearly, we are talking about the system of A. Crowley...😉
Within the specific framework of his vision of Magika, perhaps I am incorrect. But that is no different from me being "incorrect" in my perception of you. And just as you both might disagree with my perspective, I find myself at odds with yours too...
The same principle of subjectivity applies here, since my own practice of Magika doesn't necessarily fit within the boundaries of the system you're describing...

No, it isn't that; rather, my will simply differs from yours. We are both merely acting according to our own respective wills...😉

Crowley did coin the term Magik, 🙂

but you didn't specify that you were referring to Crowley's Magik; you were speaking about Magik in general.
Furthermore, you haven't explained how Crowley's—or rather, my Magik—differs from yours, or why it doesn't align?
And what, exactly, constitutes your version of Magik?

wiredbear2 said:Whose Magika are we even discussing? Clearly, we are talking about the system of A. Crowley...😉
Within the specific framework of his vision of Magika, perhaps I am incorrect. But that is no different from me being "incorrect" in my perception of you. And just as you both might disagree with my perspective, I find myself at odds with yours too...
The same principle of subjectivity applies here, since my own practice of Magika doesn't necessarily fit within the boundaries of the system you're describing...

No, it isn't that; rather, my will simply differs from yours. We are both merely acting according to our own respective wills...😉

I fail to see how this sentence contradicts my assertion that Magik is quite far removed from spontaneity, coercion, or a lack of love...

Andrew Sanchez572 said:Crowley did coin the term Magik, 🙂

but you didn't specify that you were referring to Crowley's Magik; you were speaking about Magik in general.
Furthermore, you haven't explained how Crowley's—or rather, my Magik—differs from yours, or why it doesn't align?
And what, exactly, constitutes your version of Magik?

I fail to see how this sentence contradicts my assertion that Magik is quite far removed from spontaneity, coercion, or a lack of love...

Andrew Sanchez572, it’s honestly no surprise that we aren't seeing eye to eye when we are starting from such fundamentally different perspectives...
You see, you are presenting us here with something that someone else invented, someone else imagined and then decided to publish. You are receiving ideas from others; you are a follower of someone else's philosophy. And look, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.
But have you ever stopped to wonder if that very thing acts as a tether for you? Does it prevent you from truly grasping what another person thinks and feels at their core?

I, on the other hand, am a practitioner of my own internal visions. I am the architect of my own Magika, the author of my own laws and rituals, and the sole judge of my actions is my own conscience...
And since we are discussing various codes of conduct, I find myself much more aligned with the principle: "Do what thou wilt, so long as it harms no one else."
There is really no need for me to explain the intricacies of my Magika to you, because, quite frankly, I don't know you well enough yet, and those are conversations I reserve for people close to me, those in whom I place my trust...

There is no such thing as "my" magic or "your" magic. Magika is simply Magika, and its nature is defined entirely by the individual practicing it. It is a deeply personal matter...
I happen to find Crowley's specific terminology—Magika—rather elegant, which is why I've adopted it myself.

I don't understand how this sentence contradicts my claim that Magika is a far cry from being unspontaneous, forced, or devoid of love.

Well, it doesn't contradict it at all. In fact, I fully respect your right to exercise your own free will, to practice love, sexuality, and spirituality in whatever way feels most authentic to you...
If anything, that is where the true beauty and charm lie—in the fact that we are all different😉, and that we can learn from one another if we choose to... provided we remain open-minded and capable of truly understanding one another.

wiredbear2, honestly, you have a very peculiar way of communicating. First, you dismiss the premise without any actual evidence, then you retreat behind the excuse that it's just your subjective perception, and then you simply circle back to the beginning 🙄

The most frustrating part is how you constantly jump to conclusions about things you don't even fully understand—like my own spiritual practice, for instance. I have to say, this whole debating style of yours feels quite immature.

Now you're claiming our starting points are worlds apart... so, would you mind actually clarifying what your position is? If you didn't intend to have a real conversation from the get-go, I fail to see the point of you participating in this thread at all. Aside from mocking me the entire time, you haven't contributed a single coherent or well-reasoned thought. Sorry, but that is my subjective experience of you, though it is based on fact.

Since you seem so enamored with the term Magika, do you actually know its origins or why it was even coined? And more importantly, why does it appeal to you so much?
Or is that also far too subjective for you to explain?

Andrew Sanchez572, honestly, I really don't know what you're trying to get out of me here...🙄
Unfortunately, I just don't have the luxury of time to sit here and unpack every single one of my thoughts for you in exhaustive detail, though I truly feel like you're an intelligent enough person to start reading between the lines...
Your issue seems to be a fundamental inability to accept that there are different perspectives and lived experiences regarding the exact same subject—in this case, the intersection of sexuality and spirituality. I haven't been attacking you or trying to force you to admit you're wrong; I simply stated what MY own perspective is on the matter.
By the way, I’ve provided plenty of arguments to support my side of things, but since all you seem capable of doing is insisting that I'm incorrect without offering any actual substance (just empty 😉 arguments), I find myself at a total loss for how to respond intelligently...
It feels like we are operating from entirely different foundational principles, so I think it's best if I step away from this particular conversation with you. Please understand, there's nothing personal about this at all, everything is fine...😉

I am simply looking for a post that actually makes sense from start to finish, rather than this constant, half-baked mystification of every little thing.
If there is something you are unsure about, it is only polite to ask; there is absolutely no shame in not having all the answers at once.

Furthermore, please remember that nothing here should be taken personally.

Andrew Sanchez572 said:Goodness, I wonder why posts of this nature aren't prohibited by the moderators? 😁
Could you perhaps articulate your thought process more clearly and, by the way, elaborate on exactly what point you are supporting and the reasoning behind it?
The previous post contains quite a bit of content, including several claims that are simply inaccurate...

Then why didn't I write it "entirely"?😕

My apologies, but that would only be possible if you were some sort of clone of Bridget's 🙏

Andrew Sanchez572 said:To begin with, I believe it is best to start with self-pleasure. One should truly get to know oneself before attempting to explore these things with a partner.

While it might sound unusual, using a sexual position where your head hangs off the edge of the bed—allowing the blood to rush to your head—is actually a fantastic technique for opening the third eye. You can attempt to meditate on the third eye, focusing on its opening and such... any meditation centered on the third eye works exceptionally well in this position.
Of course, if you happen to have any underlying health concerns, one ought to approach these practices with a bit more caution.

The rituals themselves follow a specific structure, much like any other practice; first, you perform a banishing and protection ritual, sit for a moment in meditation to clear the mind, and then proceed to masturbation, or rather, sexual stimulation. Once you reach a state where the body no longer requires physical stimulus, you begin the visualization process, which should culminate precisely at the moment of orgasm. This is followed by relaxation and a visualization of the ritual's conclusion. Finally, you perform the banishing ritual once more, and that is that.

Now, as for the visualizations... there are many varieties to choose from.
They can range from standard visualizations for energizing the body and chakras to drawing inspiration from Tarot cards. You could even try living through a myth by identifying with the protagonist... the possibilities are truly limitless.

Another excellent resource is Secrets of Western Tantra. It contains numerous described rituals and very useful advice. It even features an excellent chapter regarding BDSM and its application within sexual magic 👍 as well as explanations and descriptions of sensory deprivation and its uses.
Truly wonderful books 🙏

And one absolutely ingenious ritual is the Ritual Ring Kabbalah.
But really, one must read the entire book to fully grasp it.

Errrm, I actually wrote down the wrong title earlier 😳—the one I mentioned is definitely good, but it doesn't actually contain the ritual Kabbalah ring. The correct book is Modern Sex Magick

I always seem to get them mixed up... 😵