American Communism!

velvetmaker3 said:That documentary is pretty biased; it feels like they're just trying to demonize the whole system so the director can profit off sensationalism and shock value. My family living in the US is actually really happy with the healthcare there. I guess it all just comes down to whatever level of insurance you decide to go with—some plans cover more, others cover less.

It makes sense that there are satisfied people, just like in any system—but that’s clearly not what this documentary is focusing on...

velvetmaker3 said:What Americans are doing right now isn't Communism. The government is stepping in because things have reached an alarming level, and once the crisis settles down, everything will just go back to normal.
And honestly, I think that's perfectly fine. I don't see any reason why the state shouldn't try to mitigate the damage if they actually have the ability to do so.
This has absolutely nothing to do with Communism.

velvetmaker3
The government steps in to prevent a total collapse in living standards. This isn't some crisis like you'd see in the
Ivory Coast. Nobody cares about the crisis over there; it's always a mess.
But the core issue tells you everything.
When people stop being able to pay off the massive loans used to fund their lifestyles—basically paying for today with tomorrow's money
—creditors lose their shirts, banks collapse, and then the state has to take them over. That's just how a social welfare state works.

That's exactly what's laid out in the Communist Manifesto, which is probably why people call this "American Communism."
In reality, this isn't some grand ideological shift toward ideology; it's just a pure circular process.

They don't need Socialism or Communism; honestly, what they have right now is more than enough for them. My solution? Just kick everyone out onto the street and let them figure it out on their own. It’s absolute madness—they bail out the most massive, hyper-capitalist corporations with taxpayer money, yet at the exact same time, they demonize every other business trying to do the same thing. They go sending out emissaries all over the globe preaching about democracy, all while dealing with a population that's arguably less literate than people in Uganda...

Amy Lopez6 said:It makes sense that there are satisfied people, just like in any system—but that’s clearly not what this documentary is focusing on...

Movies are directed, and documentaries are no different; if you understand what I mean, a director can make anything look a certain way.
Even if someone else had produced it, Moore isn't exactly someone you can trust blindly; he thrives on being biased and sensationalist.

velvetmaker3 said:Oh, here we go, a conspiracy theory. It's all explained now: there isn't actually a crisis in the auto industry, and the bailouts aren't necessary—it's just a scheme to make the already wealthy even richer. Since you say there's no problem, I won't waste my time on your "greedy elites" conspiracy theories.

First off, I am not some greedy corporate fat cat.🙄 I am looking at this strictly from an economic (which is my profession) and political standpoint.

When you deal with economics in America, the reality is straightforward and indisputable. And I never claimed there wasn't a crisis. Of course there is one. However, it isn't quite at those proportions; rather, massive investments into various hopeless projects were what drove the situation toward a crisis in the first place. The real question is why those projects were funded and whose interests were being served.

The facts are that problems exist, but money is being pumped into the system the wrong way. Instead of supporting small-scale manufacturers, the focus is placed on catering to massive corporations—the very entities that serve as the pillars of the American system.☕

P.S. If you want some quality literature regarding the economic perspective, I can certainly provide a few recommendations.

Matthew Watson15 said:First off, I am not some greedy corporate fat cat.🙄 I am looking at this strictly from an economic (which is my profession) and political standpoint.

When you deal with economics in America, the reality is straightforward and indisputable. And I never claimed there wasn't a crisis. Of course there is one. However, it isn't quite at those proportions; rather, massive investments into various hopeless projects were what drove the situation toward a crisis in the first place. The real question is why those projects were funded and whose interests were being served.

The facts are that problems exist, but money is being pumped into the system the wrong way. Instead of supporting small-scale manufacturers, the focus is placed on catering to massive corporations—the very entities that serve as the pillars of the American system.☕

P.S. If you want some quality literature regarding the economic perspective, I can certainly provide a few recommendations.

I’d suggest you solve all of America's problems by advising them how to save that money, then just taking a 1% cut of the savings, and you'll be loaded. Since you clearly understand the situation and know exactly what they're doing wrong, I'm sure you'll have it figured out in no time.

There’s no other way: we need a proletarian revolution right here in the USA. Once that happens, the whole world is going to fall like a ripe peach. And you can bet the Chinese will be there to pick it up.

The only thing is, we can't let it turn into a disaster like what happened in Zimbabwe (formerly Rhodesia). When they stripped those big white farmers of their land, everything went south—famine and disease hit hard. Now, you've got a massive stretch of territory, 370,000 square kilometers with just 12 million people, and it's being ravaged by cholera, AIDS, and all sorts of other misery.

Every time a crisis hits, those big-shot economic theorists—including our own Council of Economic Advisers—always suggest tightening the belt on the poorest folks. They constantly try to convince workers that because there’s a crunch, we have to save money, which basically means cutting our paychecks. All just to make sure the elite keeps living the high life.

What is even the point of having this Council? I haven't heard a single smart piece of advice from them... besides the usual "cut wages" or "boost exports" nonsense. Just generic platitudes.

Actually, there is one thing I'm curious about: how much do the members of this Council get paid for every hour they spend in those useless meetings?

Who would have guessed that America would eventually pivot toward socialist business models? But here we are. Crises force your hand; people lose their jobs, and pure Capitalism just isn't the powerhouse it used to be. Now, they’re drifting toward some kind of semi-Communist market system, mostly because the reality is simple: America has been spending way more than it actually earns.

One morning I was watching a news program here in Australia, and during a segment on the US auto industry, the host actually agreed with his studio guests: Socialism

And honestly, they aren't wrong; it definitely looks like ☕socialism
.

This crisis under Bush is essentially the death knell for capitalism.

Capitalism has buckled. It just can't sustain itself anymore—it's finished, and it's no longer worthy of its own achievements.
When the state steps in like this, it's pure socialism 🙂
.
Ultimately, capitalism has engineered its own destruction. ☕

Lisa Morales4 said:One morning I was watching a news program here in Australia, and during a segment on the US auto industry, the host actually agreed with his studio guests: Socialism

And honestly, they aren't wrong; it definitely looks like ☕socialism
.

This crisis under Bush is essentially the death knell for capitalism.

Capitalism has buckled. It just can't sustain itself anymore—it's finished, and it's no longer worthy of its own achievements.
When the state steps in like this, it's pure socialism 🙂
.
Ultimately, capitalism has engineered its own destruction. ☕

Nonsense. It's not like this is the first time the government has stepped in under Capitalism.
This has nothing to do with Socialism.
The state intervenes, and it will keep intervening if necessary, but it still remains Capitalism.
State intervention existed before Communism and outlasted it, and it'll likely stick around long after Communism is gone.
Probably forever, since you can't actually live under Communism.

Give me a break...

The government stepped in, and they’ll step in again if necessary, all while maintaining the facade of Capitalism.

So, we should just take your word for it because you say it's true?!! 😁
Sit down and be quiet.

Even the birds on the wire can see what's actually happening here...

And this entire new thread serves as perfect proof!
Even the most rigid defenders of Capitalism—those local advocates who usually demand the immediate shutdown of domestic losers like our major Shipbuilders—are suddenly asking if these moves aren't actually following the path of Communist-Socialist "reforms," isn't it a bit contradictory for them to flip-flop like this?😂

Oh, sure... now it's all about saving jobs. 😁
Why doesn't our government simply save the jobs in the failing Shipbuilders and those other domestic industries bleeding cash, just to prove to America that we are even more dedicated capitalists than they are?
Maybe we'll get a reward for it.

Good heavens

I am writing this while having a drink,

I cannot elaborate further due to physical limitations, but I maintain my stance: this government intervention—this fight against the abuses of neoliberalism—shows absolutely no hint of Socialism.

It is much like what Milas argued long ago regarding the takeover of our telecommunications by AT&T.

No one is foolish, and you don't need an advanced degree to see the obvious.

One can only hope for better days. And yes, while you all spend money on Christmas and New Year's, I wish you nothing but joy and happiness.

Cheers.

Edward Fisher3 said:Give me a break...

The government stepped in, and they’ll step in again if necessary, all while maintaining the facade of Capitalism.

So, we should just take your word for it because you say it's true?!! 😁
Sit down and be quiet.

Even the birds on the wire can see what's actually happening here...

And this entire new thread serves as perfect proof!
Even the most rigid defenders of Capitalism—those local advocates who usually demand the immediate shutdown of domestic losers like our major Shipbuilders—are suddenly asking if these moves aren't actually following the path of Communist-Socialist "reforms," isn't it a bit contradictory for them to flip-flop like this?😂

Oh, sure... now it's all about saving jobs. 😁
Why doesn't our government simply save the jobs in the failing Shipbuilders and those other domestic industries bleeding cash, just to prove to America that we are even more dedicated capitalists than they are?
Maybe we'll get a reward for it.

That self-satisfaction of yours is useless; it won't last.
The USA isn't introducing Communism, nor will it ever. It's still Capitalism over there; people lose their jobs every single day, just like they did before these measures.
They're just trying to bail out the strongest players, while the weaker ones get left to fend for themselves.
I don't see why the government shouldn't step in if they decide something can be saved through intervention.

That isn't Communism; government intervention isn't Communism.

Communism is something else entirely, and there's nothing even remotely like it over there.

When someone claims the USA has introduced Communism, I can only view them as a total weirdo who has absolutely no clue what they're talking about.

Just because a measure has a social nature doesn't mean it's Communism.
Plenty of laws within Capitalism have a social nature, but they aren't Communism or Socialism.

It isn't as if the USA introduced Communism... they are simply borrowing certain communist methods of self-management... 🤣

It seems they aren't quite cut out for Marx

And yet, here you are, trying to sell us a load of nonsense under the guise of virtue😁

Capitalism and the laws of the free market don't recognize these kinds of state interventions, even when they claim it's all to save something or preserve social stability...

I realize the truth can be difficult to swallow... but what can you do? 😁

Edward Fisher3 said:It isn't as if the USA introduced Communism... they are simply borrowing certain communist methods of self-management... 🤣

It seems they aren't quite cut out for Marx

And yet, here you are, trying to sell us a load of nonsense under the guise of virtue😁

Capitalism and the laws of the free market don't recognize these kinds of state interventions, even when they claim it's all to save something or preserve social stability...

I realize the truth can be difficult to swallow... but what can you do? 😁

hm, sorry

Have you even heard of the system in Germany? Look at the Bundesbank and Beg.

Edward Fisher3 said:It isn't as if the USA introduced Communism... they are simply borrowing certain communist methods of self-management... 🤣

It seems they aren't quite cut out for Marx

And yet, here you are, trying to sell us a load of nonsense under the guise of virtue😁

Capitalism and the laws of the free market don't recognize these kinds of state interventions, even when they claim it's all to save something or preserve social stability...

I realize the truth can be difficult to swallow... but what can you do? 😁

The government protects its own interests; whatever it decides is beneficial at any given moment, that's what it's going to do.
That has nothing to do with Marx.
Every nation wants to be powerful, and if they see a weakness somewhere, they'll try to fix it.
They are light years away from Communism.

Have you even considered how the system functions over in Germany? Between the unions and the way things are run there...

True, but they never truly abandoned the principles of Socialism the way people here in America have!
In Germany, a worker is actually treated as a respected member of society.
What does it mean to be a real worker in America versus being one in Germany?
In the States, a worker is nothing more than a number—something you look at the same way you’d look at a disposable battery.
Once the charge runs out, you just swap them for a new one and toss the old one in the trash.

I won't get too deep into the analysis right now... but you all know exactly what I'm getting at.

Edward Fisher3 said:

Have you even considered how the system functions over in Germany? Between the unions and the way things are run there...

True, but they never truly abandoned the principles of Socialism the way people here in America have!
In Germany, a worker is actually treated as a respected member of society.
What does it mean to be a real worker in America versus being one in Germany?
In the States, a worker is nothing more than a number—something you look at the same way you’d look at a disposable battery.
Once the charge runs out, you just swap them for a new one and toss the old one in the trash.

I won't get too deep into the analysis right now... but you all know exactly what I'm getting at.

Suppose, for example, you plow a field. Suddenly, out of nowhere, grass or maybe even marijuana starts growing everywhere. Think about it—would I trade you for some simple kitchen appliance that occasionally boils a couple of eggs? Something a bit more lively?

Look, if you try to play politics or act like you own the state, or if you start acting like a corrupt politician or even mention names we shouldn't mention... then fine, buy your own egg-boilers at your own expense. But we aren't going to let our people be replaced like batteries. And no, this has absolutely nothing to do with Marx, Socialism, or the avant-garde... please.

velvetmaker3 said:That self-satisfaction of yours is useless; it won't last.
The USA isn't introducing Communism, nor will it ever. It's still Capitalism over there; people lose their jobs every single day, just like they did before these measures.
They're just trying to bail out the strongest players, while the weaker ones get left to fend for themselves.
I don't see why the government shouldn't step in if they decide something can be saved through intervention.

That isn't Communism; government intervention isn't Communism.

Communism is something else entirely, and there's nothing even remotely like it over there.

When someone claims the USA has introduced Communism, I can only view them as a total weirdo who has absolutely no clue what they're talking about.

Just because a measure has a social nature doesn't mean it's Communism.
Plenty of laws within Capitalism have a social nature, but they aren't Communism or Socialism.

Communism is ancient history and it's never coming back... but the kind of liberal Capitalism we've known is also fading out... things are gonna have to shift eventually...

So you say state intervention is okay... but the government isn't using its own cash... that's taxpayer money collected from regular citizens... and why should we bail out wealthy CEOs who pocketed everything when times were good... and now they want the whole country to foot the bill just so they can survive and keep making life hard for everyone else... that's not how Capitalism works... you either succeed and make bank or you're out... that's the system they built themselves, and moving away from that means something major is gonna change down the road...

How are you even supposed to decide which company gets a lifeline and which one doesn't? Like, does the one with more lobbyists in D.C. get the check while the other one starves? You'd have to build that directly into the system to decide exactly who gets what... because at the end of the day, if you help one, you have to help them all since everyone's getting hit by the crisis... and that kind of hand-holding isn't really the Capitalism we used to know...

You're right that Capitalism will stick around, but it'll probably have a different prefix in the future and be way more closed off, with way more social elements. After all, during these kinds of crises, it's always the regular folks and the workers who take the biggest hit, and they make up the vast majority of the country.