Different spiritual paths

shadownomad4 said:I provided an answer regarding the Holy Spirit and referred to that page because it is more comprehensive than my own comment and is supported by biblical verses.

Furthermore, the Holy Spirit resides within me, so I am well aware of who He is. The proof of His presence in my life is my ability to speak in tongues, if you are familiar with the concept. "Those who believe... shall speak in other tongues..." If you desire that same experience, you can look through other similar posts, or I can guide you right here.

Everything that is spiritual follows a spiritual path.

Now that is interesting! Give us a few examples and walk us through your reasoning...🤷

shadownomad4 said:Anything performed in Jesus' name comes from God, provided it aligns perfectly with the Letter; otherwise, it does not.

The whole point of this discussion seems to be lost because everyone is misinterpreting Scripture and the actual teachings of Jesus.
History has repeatedly demonstrated how such flawed interpretations give rise to entire religions, ultimately fueling the very evil they claim to oppose.

It isn't necessarily the truth that everything done in Jesus' name originates from God, even when it seems perfectly aligned with Scripture. Our subjective perception of what constitutes acting "in Jesus' name" is really just part of our own internal filter—the lens we use to decide whether our actions are righteous or wrong. In your case, I can see how you've convinced yourself that your approach is the right one, constantly reinforcing that certainty by layering Bible verses over your arguments to give your own opinions the label of being "good."
But this version of "good" you’re pushing around seems to be nothing more than what you personally define it to be.
They say the road to hell is paved with nothing but good intentions.
So, you’ve gone and tripped yourself up by trying to spread the Holy Spirit, even if your intentions were clearly coming from a good place.
In your first post, you mentioned having read most of the literature we discuss and using meditative techniques that ultimately just drifted you further away from the actual truth. If that claim holds water, then you surely realize that we are all navigating this search for truth entirely on our own; after all, true insight isn't something that can be achieved as a group effort.

If you truly believe your version of the truth is working and has steered you toward the right path, I struggle to see why there's such an urge to push it onto the rest of us. Wouldn't it be more fulfilling to simply sit back, enjoy what you've found, and let it speak for itself?

Truth doesn't need to be forced; it’s inherently good, possessing a certain grace akin to a beautiful melody or the refreshing clarity of spring water. It requires no heavy-handed promotion or artificial embellishment, as it naturally does its work—quietly dispelling darkness and drawing the light toward itself.
And if there’s one thing that really matters, she doesn't need to lean on anything from the Bible, the Quran, or the Torah... she just speaks for herself.

Richard Walker79 said:A cup full of wisdom. 👍

But karma is a complex law; it might not catch up to you until your tenth lifetime. What do you think?

I’m of the mind that karma operates in the present moment—it’s happening right now—even if the actual fallout doesn't manifest until later. This also leaves a little window open to potentially mitigate or heal a future "penalty," provided the bill hasn't already come due.
Let's put it this way:
If you’ve gone and done something that messes with your karma—sending you down a jagged little path where you can clearly see the wreckage ahead—you might still find a way to pivot. Perhaps there's a chance to nudge yourself back toward a slightly less disastrous trajectory before the inevitable impact hits.
Karma is just as unpredictable as our material lives here in the States; perhaps someone truly earned a fatal collision today, yet they manage to do something that softens the blow, leaving them with nothing more than a wrecked car and a narrow escape.
And that is exactly what karma looks like.

So, one could argue that settling the score for ten lifetimes is actually possible, given that our spirit is timeless and isn't tethered to the constraints of matter.

It’s a mistake, really, to view karma through such a purely material lens.

shadownomad4 said:Anything performed in Jesus' name comes from God, provided it aligns perfectly with the Letter; otherwise, it does not.

I feel like people who blindly follow the Scriptures can sometimes end up becoming quite harsh or even indifferent, mostly because they’re just doing exactly what they *think* the texts are telling them to do, which, in my opinion, often drifts away from the actual truth.
I think there's this little story—I can't quite remember if I've shared it before, but it seems to fit this situation perfectly.
So, there was this village blacksmith who took on an apprentice to teach him the craft. On the very first day, he tells him, "Alright, watch closely now; this is a piece of metal that we put into the fire until it gets hot enough. Once it reaches the right temperature, I'll give you a nod with my head, and then you should strike it with the hammer as hard as you possibly can."
Well, the apprentice did exactly what he thought he had been instructed to do.
By the next day, he was the village blacksmith!😁

shadownomad4 said:I provided an answer regarding the Holy Spirit and referred to that page because it is more comprehensive than my own comment and is supported by biblical verses.

Furthermore, the Holy Spirit resides within me, so I am well aware of who He is. The proof of His presence in my life is my ability to speak in tongues, if you are familiar with the concept. "Those who believe... shall speak in other tongues..." If you desire that same experience, you can look through other similar posts, or I can guide you right here.

Everything that is spiritual follows a spiritual path.

Since you claim to have this direct experience with the Holy Spirit, why don't you try explaining to me—in your own words, rather than just hiding behind a Bible quote—exactly how speaking in tongues serves as evidence that the Holy Spirit is actually speaking through you?

Which specific languages are you speaking, anyway? And, if you aren't too busy, maybe you could prove your authenticity by translating this post into one of the languages you use.

Honestly, if you just head over to YouTube and search for charisma or maybe even speaking in tongues, you'll find plenty of stuff.
I guess the reason it might not translate the text for you is probably because most people who are out there babbling in those (um, heavenly 😁 ) languages don't really have a clue what they're actually saying anyway...

nimblemaker30 said:😍 🙂 I was actually mulling over questions about property and legal paperwork today—just so you know—and you really have quite the intuition, don't you? You managed to hit right on the head the exact topic that's been grating on my nerves lately.

You're absolutely right, both about the stone and the pleasure.

The realization that this whole thing is just a divine play, that everything is God's will and that He alone is responsible for it all—and that within this context, both our suffering and our joy belong to Him, just as He is the only one truly acting—well, that only helps if a person can bring enough awareness to what's happening to take the position of a neutral observer, watching their own life unfold like a movie playing out right in front of them. Just neutral, perhaps slightly curious about "what's next?" That’s what they call detachment, and it's the only thing that grants a person peace and tranquility regardless of the circumstances.

Synchronicity at work, clearly...🙂

nimblemaker30 said:Since you claim to have this direct experience with the Holy Spirit, why don't you try explaining to me—in your own words, rather than just hiding behind a Bible quote—exactly how speaking in tongues serves as evidence that the Holy Spirit is actually speaking through you?

Which specific languages are you speaking, anyway? And, if you aren't too busy, maybe you could prove your authenticity by translating this post into one of the languages you use.

This is simply one of His gifts; it is our spirit that speaks, while He is the one providing the inspiration. You don't possess a gift to translate this native tongue into a spiritual one—it works the other way around. For instance, there are people gifted with the ability to interpret tongues, where they translate what someone else has said, and that is the extent of it. When you pray to the Father in Jesus' name asking for something, He won't grant you something from the devil. Therefore, when skeptics try to force the concept of language into the conversation, they are merely exposing their own unbelief and fear.

shadownomad4 said:This is simply one of His gifts; it is our spirit that speaks, while He is the one providing the inspiration. You don't possess a gift to translate this native tongue into a spiritual one—it works the other way around. For instance, there are people gifted with the ability to interpret tongues, where they translate what someone else has said, and that is the extent of it. When you pray to the Father in Jesus' name asking for something, He won't grant you something from the devil. Therefore, when skeptics try to force the concept of language into the conversation, they are merely exposing their own unbelief and fear.

So, what you're suggesting is that you possess the gift of translating the spiritual into our native language,

but I have to wonder—who exactly are you translating it for? Us? Isn't it written in Scripture that we should all be able to understand it? It seems to me that those who act as intermediaries between the Scripture and the people are often the very ones introducing misunderstandings into the interpretation of the Word.

shadownomad4 said:This is simply one of His gifts; it is our spirit that speaks, while He is the one providing the inspiration. You don't possess a gift to translate this native tongue into a spiritual one—it works the other way around. For instance, there are people gifted with the ability to interpret tongues, where they translate what someone else has said, and that is the extent of it. When you pray to the Father in Jesus' name asking for something, He won't grant you something from the devil. Therefore, when skeptics try to force the concept of language into the conversation, they are merely exposing their own unbelief and fear.

Forgive me, shadownomad4, but you're just rambling; there's a lot of noise here, but very little substance...
Which "skeptics" are we talking about? What exactly are they afraid of, and what is this unbelief directed toward?
And why would one need to pray to the Father in Jesus' name in that specific way? Does Jesus truly need to act as an intermediary for us to petition the Father in His name? And what is the nature of these requests—are we asking for material things or spiritual ones?
For someone claiming to provide a "clear and understandable" interpretation of the Bible, your points are rather confusing and vague.

Michael Moore3 said:So, what you're suggesting is that you possess the gift of translating the spiritual into our native language,

but I have to wonder—who exactly are you translating it for? Us? Isn't it written in Scripture that we should all be able to understand it? It seems to me that those who act as intermediaries between the Scripture and the people are often the very ones introducing misunderstandings into the interpretation of the Word.

Forgive me, shadownomad4, but you're just rambling; there's a lot of noise here, but very little substance...
Which "skeptics" are we talking about? What exactly are they afraid of, and what is this unbelief directed toward?
And why would one need to pray to the Father in Jesus' name in that specific way? Does Jesus truly need to act as an intermediary for us to petition the Father in His name? And what is the nature of these requests—are we asking for material things or spiritual ones?
For someone claiming to provide a "clear and understandable" interpretation of the Bible, your points are rather confusing and vague.

Without the Holy Spirit, gaining insight into spiritual realities is impossible, which explains why everything seems so confusing to you.

shadownomad4 said:Without the Holy Spirit, gaining insight into spiritual realities is impossible, which explains why everything seems so confusing to you.

Oh, naturally!
It’s that classic, quintessential Christian fallback—the ultimate way they've managed to rubber-stamp centuries of suffering and misery, always used by those calling themselves "spiritual" as a convenient shield whenever they run out of actual arguments.

So, if I'm following your logic, you're suggesting that without something completely undefinable (the Holy Spirit), it's impossible to grasp something else that is also entirely undefinable (spiritual realities)...
And where does that leave you, claiming to possess this thing (the Holy Spirit) that the rest of us apparently can't perceive? You claim to be translating these concepts from the spiritual realm into our language, yet the things you "translate" still sound like nonsense to us... and then you just shrug and say we can't understand because we lack the Holy Spirit. If that's the case, what exactly is the point of your translation? What purpose does it serve?

shadownomad4, you’re essentially peddling pseudo-philosophy under the guise of quoting the Bible. Your grasp of Scripture seems more like memorizing lyrics to a song without actually understanding what the songwriter meant; it shows in your interpretations, which tend to circle aimlessly around vague terms, twisting quotes to fit your own narrative just because they contain a word that suits your moment, even when the broader context suggests something else entirely.

Michael Moore3 said:Oh, naturally!
It’s that classic, quintessential Christian fallback—the ultimate way they've managed to rubber-stamp centuries of suffering and misery, always used by those calling themselves "spiritual" as a convenient shield whenever they run out of actual arguments.

So, if I'm following your logic, you're suggesting that without something completely undefinable (the Holy Spirit), it's impossible to grasp something else that is also entirely undefinable (spiritual realities)...
And where does that leave you, claiming to possess this thing (the Holy Spirit) that the rest of us apparently can't perceive? You claim to be translating these concepts from the spiritual realm into our language, yet the things you "translate" still sound like nonsense to us... and then you just shrug and say we can't understand because we lack the Holy Spirit. If that's the case, what exactly is the point of your translation? What purpose does it serve?

shadownomad4, you’re essentially peddling pseudo-philosophy under the guise of quoting the Bible. Your grasp of Scripture seems more like memorizing lyrics to a song without actually understanding what the songwriter meant; it shows in your interpretations, which tend to circle aimlessly around vague terms, twisting quotes to fit your own narrative just because they contain a word that suits your moment, even when the broader context suggests something else entirely.

Who is the Holy Spirit?

Question: Who is the Holy Spirit?

Answer: There are many misconceptions regarding the identity of the Holy Spirit. Some view the Holy Spirit as a mystical force. Others believe He is an impersonal power that God bestows upon Christ's followers. What does the Bible say about the identity of the Holy Spirit? Simply put—the Bible states that the Holy Spirit is God. The Bible also teaches that the Holy Spirit is a Person, a Being possessing His own mind, emotions, and will.

The fact that the Holy Spirit is God is clearly evidenced in many Scriptures, including Acts 5:3-4. In these verses, Peter confronts Ananias because he lied to the Holy Spirit, stating that he "did not lie to men, but to God." From this statement, it is clear that lying to the Holy Spirit is simultaneously lying to God. Furthermore, we know the Holy Spirit is God because He possesses the attributes and characteristics of God. For instance, in Psalm 139:7-8, we see the reality of the Holy Spirit's omnipresence: "Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence? If I ascend to heaven, you are there; if I make my bed in the Underworld, you are there." Later, in 1 Corinthians 2:10-11, we see the characteristic of the all-knowing Holy Spirit: "For God has revealed it to us through the Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man within him? Even so, no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God."

We can know that the Holy Spirit is truly a Person because He possesses a mind, emotions, and a will. The Holy Spirit thinks and knows (1 Corinthians 2:10). We can grieve the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 4:30). The Holy Spirit intercedes for us (Romans 8:26-27). The Holy Spirit makes decisions according to His will (1 Corinthians 12:7-11). The Holy Spirit is God, the third Person in the Holy Trinity. As God, the Holy Spirit can truly act as the Comforter and Counselor that Jesus promised to send (John 14:16, 26; 15:26).

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shadownomad4 said:Who is the Holy Spirit?

Question: Who is the Holy Spirit?

Answer: There are many misconceptions regarding the identity of the Holy Spirit. Some view the Holy Spirit as a mystical force. Others believe He is an impersonal power that God bestows upon Christ's followers. What does the Bible say about the identity of the Holy Spirit? Simply put—the Bible states that the Holy Spirit is God. The Bible also teaches that the Holy Spirit is a Person, a Being possessing His own mind, emotions, and will.

The fact that the Holy Spirit is God is clearly evidenced in many Scriptures, including Acts 5:3-4. In these verses, Peter confronts Ananias because he lied to the Holy Spirit, stating that he "did not lie to men, but to God." From this statement, it is clear that lying to the Holy Spirit is simultaneously lying to God. Furthermore, we know the Holy Spirit is God because He possesses the attributes and characteristics of God. For instance, in Psalm 139:7-8, we see the reality of the Holy Spirit's omnipresence: "Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence? If I ascend to heaven, you are there; if I make my bed in the Underworld, you are there." Later, in 1 Corinthians 2:10-11, we see the characteristic of the all-knowing Holy Spirit: "For God has revealed it to us through the Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man within him? Even so, no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God."

We can know that the Holy Spirit is truly a Person because He possesses a mind, emotions, and a will. The Holy Spirit thinks and knows (1 Corinthians 2:10). We can grieve the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 4:30). The Holy Spirit intercedes for us (Romans 8:26-27). The Holy Spirit makes decisions according to His will (1 Corinthians 12:7-11). The Holy Spirit is God, the third Person in the Holy Trinity. As God, the Holy Spirit can truly act as the Comforter and Counselor that Jesus promised to send (John 14:16, 26; 15:26).

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You’ve gone and put together another string of Bible excerpts that could be interpreted in just about any way imaginable. You also seem determined to hand over every single attribute previously assigned to God to the Holy Spirit—suggesting He is everything and in everything, which essentially allows the Holy Spirit to be a person, an energy, or whatever else we can or cannot wrap our heads around.

And I’ll say it again: based on your claim that you've personally experienced the Holy Spirit—which, fine, if you say so, good for you—your interpretations just end up muddled and complicate my own understanding of God. I’ve built my own view of the Divine through various meditative practices and books outside of the Bible, and frankly, it makes more sense to me than any ambiguous verse from Scripture, especially since the only things in the Bible that truly resonate are the direct quotes from Jesus, and there aren't nearly enough of those to go around.

Michael Moore3 said:You’ve gone and put together another string of Bible excerpts that could be interpreted in just about any way imaginable. You also seem determined to hand over every single attribute previously assigned to God to the Holy Spirit—suggesting He is everything and in everything, which essentially allows the Holy Spirit to be a person, an energy, or whatever else we can or cannot wrap our heads around.

And I’ll say it again: based on your claim that you've personally experienced the Holy Spirit—which, fine, if you say so, good for you—your interpretations just end up muddled and complicate my own understanding of God. I’ve built my own view of the Divine through various meditative practices and books outside of the Bible, and frankly, it makes more sense to me than any ambiguous verse from Scripture, especially since the only things in the Bible that truly resonate are the direct quotes from Jesus, and there aren't nearly enough of those to go around.

Dear Michael Moore3,
Of course you don't understand the Bible—you haven't even made the effort to try. You walked in with a pre-packaged, judgmental attitude toward the Bible, and frankly, I’d bet you haven’t even read it from cover to cover, let alone sat down to actually study or grasp its depth.

That’s exactly why you can't make sense of what shadownomad4 is saying, whereas for me—someone who has been studying the Bible in detail for about fifteen years now—everything is perfectly clear. You simply lack the necessary foundation, and so you end up criticizing what you don't comprehend. You're projecting your own confusion onto shadownomad4, acting as if the flaw lies with him. Besides, those meditative techniques and non-Biblical books only offer the illusion of clarity—they aren't inspired by God. I looked into them myself a long time ago (long before I realized the value of the Bible), and while they provided some answers regarding humanity and the world, they failed to satisfy my spiritual needs. They couldn't, really, because they are religious techniques rather than truly spiritual ones—even if they claim otherwise! It's only when one encounters the Bible that true spiritual needs can be met: reconciliation with God, forgiveness for past sins, and being equipped for a new life free from the bondage of sin. Religious techniques, churches, and various denominations can only cater to your "religious" needs—those fleeting "feelings" of piety, "feelings" of holiness, or "feelings" of oneness with God. It's all built on sensations and experiences—subjective things that are false, distorted, and manipulative because they don't come from God. God speaks to a person's reason: do not kill, have no other gods, love your neighbor—these aren't "feelings" or religious "experiences." They are rational principles and moral mandates designed to shape your character, not to manufacture fake "emotional highs." See, when someone relies solely on their feelings and their own opinions, they are relying on themselves rather than on God. They are building their faith on their own ego instead of on Him. They believe *in* God, but they don't actually trust Him.!!!

I’m not writing this to hurt your feelings or out of any ill intent. I'm saying this to show you that through humble, detailed study of the Bible, one can reach very clear and simple conclusions—conclusions that are essential if we want to understand the true meaning and purpose of life, devotion, and how we ought to act.
Best regards, Elizabeth Lewis11.

Elizabeth Lewis11 said:Dear Michael Moore3,
Of course you don't understand the Bible—you haven't even made the effort to try. You walked in with a pre-packaged, judgmental attitude toward the Bible, and frankly, I’d bet you haven’t even read it from cover to cover, let alone sat down to actually study or grasp its depth.

That’s exactly why you can't make sense of what shadownomad4 is saying, whereas for me—someone who has been studying the Bible in detail for about fifteen years now—everything is perfectly clear. You simply lack the necessary foundation, and so you end up criticizing what you don't comprehend. You're projecting your own confusion onto shadownomad4, acting as if the flaw lies with him. Besides, those meditative techniques and non-Biblical books only offer the illusion of clarity—they aren't inspired by God. I looked into them myself a long time ago (long before I realized the value of the Bible), and while they provided some answers regarding humanity and the world, they failed to satisfy my spiritual needs. They couldn't, really, because they are religious techniques rather than truly spiritual ones—even if they claim otherwise! It's only when one encounters the Bible that true spiritual needs can be met: reconciliation with God, forgiveness for past sins, and being equipped for a new life free from the bondage of sin. Religious techniques, churches, and various denominations can only cater to your "religious" needs—those fleeting "feelings" of piety, "feelings" of holiness, or "feelings" of oneness with God. It's all built on sensations and experiences—subjective things that are false, distorted, and manipulative because they don't come from God. God speaks to a person's reason: do not kill, have no other gods, love your neighbor—these aren't "feelings" or religious "experiences." They are rational principles and moral mandates designed to shape your character, not to manufacture fake "emotional highs." See, when someone relies solely on their feelings and their own opinions, they are relying on themselves rather than on God. They are building their faith on their own ego instead of on Him. They believe *in* God, but they don't actually trust Him.!!!

I’m not writing this to hurt your feelings or out of any ill intent. I'm saying this to show you that through humble, detailed study of the Bible, one can reach very clear and simple conclusions—conclusions that are essential if we want to understand the true meaning and purpose of life, devotion, and how we ought to act.
Best regards, Elizabeth Lewis11.

Michael Moore3 said:You’ve gone and put together another string of Bible excerpts that could be interpreted in just about any way imaginable. You also seem determined to hand over every single attribute previously assigned to God to the Holy Spirit—suggesting He is everything and in everything, which essentially allows the Holy Spirit to be a person, an energy, or whatever else we can or cannot wrap our heads around.

And I’ll say it again: based on your claim that you've personally experienced the Holy Spirit—which, fine, if you say so, good for you—your interpretations just end up muddled and complicate my own understanding of God. I’ve built my own view of the Divine through various meditative practices and books outside of the Bible, and frankly, it makes more sense to me than any ambiguous verse from Scripture, especially since the only things in the Bible that truly resonate are the direct quotes from Jesus, and there aren't nearly enough of those to go around.

Since I started taking religious studies back in second grade during the old era when that kind of behavior wasn't exactly encouraged by society, I don't think you can really claim I'm unfamiliar with the Bible; it's quite obvious that I genuinely wanted to know it for myself...
The only real difference between us is that I couldn't quite satisfy my spiritual hunger through the Bible; it was a decent starting point, certainly, but it felt full of gaps and unknowns. But then again, some people choose to build their entire world on such shaky foundations, while others don't, so I decided to seek out all the truths and eventually realized that no single truth is ever the whole truth. That seems to be what you two are missing, because for you, the Bible is the only truth. It's like claiming a single color—say, blue—is the only color that exists, when in reality there is a vast spectrum, much of which lies beyond our visible range. Truth works the same way.

Elizabeth Lewis11 said:Dear Michael Moore3,
Of course you don't understand the Bible—you haven't even made the effort to try. You walked in with a pre-packaged, judgmental attitude toward the Bible, and frankly, I’d bet you haven’t even read it from cover to cover, let alone sat down to actually study or grasp its depth.

That’s exactly why you can't make sense of what shadownomad4 is saying, whereas for me—someone who has been studying the Bible in detail for about fifteen years now—everything is perfectly clear. You simply lack the necessary foundation, and so you end up criticizing what you don't comprehend. You're projecting your own confusion onto shadownomad4, acting as if the flaw lies with him. Besides, those meditative techniques and non-Biblical books only offer the illusion of clarity—they aren't inspired by God. I looked into them myself a long time ago (long before I realized the value of the Bible), and while they provided some answers regarding humanity and the world, they failed to satisfy my spiritual needs. They couldn't, really, because they are religious techniques rather than truly spiritual ones—even if they claim otherwise! It's only when one encounters the Bible that true spiritual needs can be met: reconciliation with God, forgiveness for past sins, and being equipped for a new life free from the bondage of sin. Religious techniques, churches, and various denominations can only cater to your "religious" needs—those fleeting "feelings" of piety, "feelings" of holiness, or "feelings" of oneness with God. It's all built on sensations and experiences—subjective things that are false, distorted, and manipulative because they don't come from God. God speaks to a person's reason: do not kill, have no other gods, love your neighbor—these aren't "feelings" or religious "experiences." They are rational principles and moral mandates designed to shape your character, not to manufacture fake "emotional highs." See, when someone relies solely on their feelings and their own opinions, they are relying on themselves rather than on God. They are building their faith on their own ego instead of on Him. They believe *in* God, but they don't actually trust Him.!!!

I’m not writing this to hurt your feelings or out of any ill intent. I'm saying this to show you that through humble, detailed study of the Bible, one can reach very clear and simple conclusions—conclusions that are essential if we want to understand the true meaning and purpose of life, devotion, and how we ought to act.
Best regards, Elizabeth Lewis11.

briskharbor35 said:Just a heads up, before I finally crossed paths with Christ, I’d already burned through most of the books you guys are talking about—tried all sorts of meditation stuff, transcendental meditation, you name it. But honestly? It all feels kind of hollow, like it just pulls you away from the Truth, which lives entirely within His Spirit. He’s the one in charge of everything, the ultimate wisdom and knowledge, the only thing that's truly whole. If those ancient Eastern philosophies were actually the key to saving our souls or finding eternal life, reincarnation wouldn't even be taught, right? And look, Jesus did everything specifically so we could receive the gift of eternal life. Even if reincarnation were a real thing, He took it all upon Himself on the Cross so we wouldn't have to go through the cycle of being reborn over and over. That's why God gave us His Son—so we can receive the GIFT of eternal life through Him. Because let's be real, NOBODY can achieve unity with God for eternity through good deeds or spiritual practices alone unless they are done in Jesus's name. I mean, what kind of God would He be if He just ignored His Son's sacrifice and offered other ways to reach that eternal union?

The absolute best part is that all we really need to do is repent for our mistakes and ask Jesus to come into our hearts with His Holy Spirit. Then, we just declare to the spiritual realm with our own voices that, from this moment on, we accept Him as our Savior and Lord who looks after every single part of our lives.🙏

That kind of spiritual experience often results in total freedom—spiritually, mentally, and even physically through healing. So, grab a copy of "The power of positive thinking" by Norman Vincent Peale to help fire up your faith in Jesus, then just call out to Him. You'll experience something so personal you won't even be able to put it into words, but I promise, the story will be incredibly joyful and full of freedom.👍

shadownomad4 said:This is simply one of His gifts; it is our spirit that speaks, while He is the one providing the inspiration. You don't possess a gift to translate this native tongue into a spiritual one—it works the other way around. For instance, there are people gifted with the ability to interpret tongues, where they translate what someone else has said, and that is the extent of it. When you pray to the Father in Jesus' name asking for something, He won't grant you something from the devil. Therefore, when skeptics try to force the concept of language into the conversation, they are merely exposing their own unbelief and fear.

What I am actually "projecting" is a defense against that "my truth is the ultimate truth" attitude that both you and shadownomad4 seem to be pushing. You both seem quite blinded by your own version of the truth. And, as I mentioned earlier, I'm not just making this up as I go; I'm speaking from study and other truths.

Elizabeth Lewis11 said:Dear Michael Moore3,
Of course you don't understand the Bible—you haven't even made the effort to try. You walked in with a pre-packaged, judgmental attitude toward the Bible, and frankly, I’d bet you haven’t even read it from cover to cover, let alone sat down to actually study or grasp its depth.

That’s exactly why you can't make sense of what shadownomad4 is saying, whereas for me—someone who has been studying the Bible in detail for about fifteen years now—everything is perfectly clear. You simply lack the necessary foundation, and so you end up criticizing what you don't comprehend. You're projecting your own confusion onto shadownomad4, acting as if the flaw lies with him. Besides, those meditative techniques and non-Biblical books only offer the illusion of clarity—they aren't inspired by God. I looked into them myself a long time ago (long before I realized the value of the Bible), and while they provided some answers regarding humanity and the world, they failed to satisfy my spiritual needs. They couldn't, really, because they are religious techniques rather than truly spiritual ones—even if they claim otherwise! It's only when one encounters the Bible that true spiritual needs can be met: reconciliation with God, forgiveness for past sins, and being equipped for a new life free from the bondage of sin. Religious techniques, churches, and various denominations can only cater to your "religious" needs—those fleeting "feelings" of piety, "feelings" of holiness, or "feelings" of oneness with God. It's all built on sensations and experiences—subjective things that are false, distorted, and manipulative because they don't come from God. God speaks to a person's reason: do not kill, have no other gods, love your neighbor—these aren't "feelings" or religious "experiences." They are rational principles and moral mandates designed to shape your character, not to manufacture fake "emotional highs." See, when someone relies solely on their feelings and their own opinions, they are relying on themselves rather than on God. They are building their faith on their own ego instead of on Him. They believe *in* God, but they don't actually trust Him.!!!

I’m not writing this to hurt your feelings or out of any ill intent. I'm saying this to show you that through humble, detailed study of the Bible, one can reach very clear and simple conclusions—conclusions that are essential if we want to understand the true meaning and purpose of life, devotion, and how we ought to act.
Best regards, Elizabeth Lewis11.

Considering how much of the Bible appears to be adapted from the Egyptian Book of the Dead—from the Ten Commandments down to the word "Amen," which stems from Amon; Amon-Ra, translated as "the hidden one" and Ra as "King of the Gods," referring to a single God we cannot see who is the god of gods, the King of Gods...
In any case, the Bible is essentially a transcription of ancient beliefs for a new era, but it certainly isn't the only text regarding God. So, your argument really just circles back to what I said before: the idea that only Biblical truth is the most truthful.
It feels a bit presumptuous, doesn't it, once you realize the Bible is a transcription?

Elizabeth Lewis11 said:Dear Michael Moore3,
Of course you don't understand the Bible—you haven't even made the effort to try. You walked in with a pre-packaged, judgmental attitude toward the Bible, and frankly, I’d bet you haven’t even read it from cover to cover, let alone sat down to actually study or grasp its depth.

That’s exactly why you can't make sense of what shadownomad4 is saying, whereas for me—someone who has been studying the Bible in detail for about fifteen years now—everything is perfectly clear. You simply lack the necessary foundation, and so you end up criticizing what you don't comprehend. You're projecting your own confusion onto shadownomad4, acting as if the flaw lies with him. Besides, those meditative techniques and non-Biblical books only offer the illusion of clarity—they aren't inspired by God. I looked into them myself a long time ago (long before I realized the value of the Bible), and while they provided some answers regarding humanity and the world, they failed to satisfy my spiritual needs. They couldn't, really, because they are religious techniques rather than truly spiritual ones—even if they claim otherwise! It's only when one encounters the Bible that true spiritual needs can be met: reconciliation with God, forgiveness for past sins, and being equipped for a new life free from the bondage of sin. Religious techniques, churches, and various denominations can only cater to your "religious" needs—those fleeting "feelings" of piety, "feelings" of holiness, or "feelings" of oneness with God. It's all built on sensations and experiences—subjective things that are false, distorted, and manipulative because they don't come from God. God speaks to a person's reason: do not kill, have no other gods, love your neighbor—these aren't "feelings" or religious "experiences." They are rational principles and moral mandates designed to shape your character, not to manufacture fake "emotional highs." See, when someone relies solely on their feelings and their own opinions, they are relying on themselves rather than on God. They are building their faith on their own ego instead of on Him. They believe *in* God, but they don't actually trust Him.!!!

I’m not writing this to hurt your feelings or out of any ill intent. I'm saying this to show you that through humble, detailed study of the Bible, one can reach very clear and simple conclusions—conclusions that are essential if we want to understand the true meaning and purpose of life, devotion, and how we ought to act.
Best regards, Elizabeth Lewis11.

???
Are you truly certain you know what you're talking about? Labeling meditation as a religious technique instead of a spiritual one?
And is reading the Bible a spiritual technique, or a religious one? Or perhaps it's both?
Does meditation create religions that worship the practice itself, whereas the Bible creates spiritually awakened people who don't feel the need to spread religion just to promote the book?
Are you really sure you understand this?
For me, meditation is what drives my spiritual growth, and at no point has it ever pushed me toward joining or starting a religion...

Elizabeth Lewis11 said:Dear Michael Moore3,
Of course you don't understand the Bible—you haven't even made the effort to try. You walked in with a pre-packaged, judgmental attitude toward the Bible, and frankly, I’d bet you haven’t even read it from cover to cover, let alone sat down to actually study or grasp its depth.

That’s exactly why you can't make sense of what shadownomad4 is saying, whereas for me—someone who has been studying the Bible in detail for about fifteen years now—everything is perfectly clear. You simply lack the necessary foundation, and so you end up criticizing what you don't comprehend. You're projecting your own confusion onto shadownomad4, acting as if the flaw lies with him. Besides, those meditative techniques and non-Biblical books only offer the illusion of clarity—they aren't inspired by God. I looked into them myself a long time ago (long before I realized the value of the Bible), and while they provided some answers regarding humanity and the world, they failed to satisfy my spiritual needs. They couldn't, really, because they are religious techniques rather than truly spiritual ones—even if they claim otherwise! It's only when one encounters the Bible that true spiritual needs can be met: reconciliation with God, forgiveness for past sins, and being equipped for a new life free from the bondage of sin. Religious techniques, churches, and various denominations can only cater to your "religious" needs—those fleeting "feelings" of piety, "feelings" of holiness, or "feelings" of oneness with God. It's all built on sensations and experiences—subjective things that are false, distorted, and manipulative because they don't come from God. God speaks to a person's reason: do not kill, have no other gods, love your neighbor—these aren't "feelings" or religious "experiences." They are rational principles and moral mandates designed to shape your character, not to manufacture fake "emotional highs." See, when someone relies solely on their feelings and their own opinions, they are relying on themselves rather than on God. They are building their faith on their own ego instead of on Him. They believe *in* God, but they don't actually trust Him.!!!

I’m not writing this to hurt your feelings or out of any ill intent. I'm saying this to show you that through humble, detailed study of the Bible, one can reach very clear and simple conclusions—conclusions that are essential if we want to understand the true meaning and purpose of life, devotion, and how we ought to act.
Best regards, Elizabeth Lewis11.

But that is precisely what I never found in the Bible. If anything, the Bible is responsible for my childhood spent wrestling with guilt over certain "sins" supposedly committed against some God I was expected to fear and love simultaneously.
The whole thing is just absurd.
You simply cannot love someone you are terrified of, and besides, "sin" is ultimately defined by one's own internal compass of right and wrong...
One shouldn't fear God, but rather hold Him in reverence. Unfortunately, the Bible failed to teach me that; instead, its teachings seemed almost exclusively focused on instilling fear, right up until the point of Jesus' actual teachings, which finally made sense. In fact, only His direct words carry any weight for me, not the various narratives or descriptions of miracles and healings. Personally, I think equating Jesus' actual teaching with the entirety of the Bible is perhaps the greatest mistake people make when studying His message.

Elizabeth Lewis11 said:Dear Michael Moore3,
Of course you don't understand the Bible—you haven't even made the effort to try. You walked in with a pre-packaged, judgmental attitude toward the Bible, and frankly, I’d bet you haven’t even read it from cover to cover, let alone sat down to actually study or grasp its depth.

That’s exactly why you can't make sense of what shadownomad4 is saying, whereas for me—someone who has been studying the Bible in detail for about fifteen years now—everything is perfectly clear. You simply lack the necessary foundation, and so you end up criticizing what you don't comprehend. You're projecting your own confusion onto shadownomad4, acting as if the flaw lies with him. Besides, those meditative techniques and non-Biblical books only offer the illusion of clarity—they aren't inspired by God. I looked into them myself a long time ago (long before I realized the value of the Bible), and while they provided some answers regarding humanity and the world, they failed to satisfy my spiritual needs. They couldn't, really, because they are religious techniques rather than truly spiritual ones—even if they claim otherwise! It's only when one encounters the Bible that true spiritual needs can be met: reconciliation with God, forgiveness for past sins, and being equipped for a new life free from the bondage of sin. Religious techniques, churches, and various denominations can only cater to your "religious" needs—those fleeting "feelings" of piety, "feelings" of holiness, or "feelings" of oneness with God. It's all built on sensations and experiences—subjective things that are false, distorted, and manipulative because they don't come from God. God speaks to a person's reason: do not kill, have no other gods, love your neighbor—these aren't "feelings" or religious "experiences." They are rational principles and moral mandates designed to shape your character, not to manufacture fake "emotional highs." See, when someone relies solely on their feelings and their own opinions, they are relying on themselves rather than on God. They are building their faith on their own ego instead of on Him. They believe *in* God, but they don't actually trust Him.!!!

I’m not writing this to hurt your feelings or out of any ill intent. I'm saying this to show you that through humble, detailed study of the Bible, one can reach very clear and simple conclusions—conclusions that are essential if we want to understand the true meaning and purpose of life, devotion, and how we ought to act.
Best regards, Elizabeth Lewis11.

I couldn't agree more with this idea.
In many ways, that is exactly what the Catholic Church does.

However, meditative techniques aren't like that... meditation doesn't make me feel "pious," it makes me feel conscious. That sense of awareness is exactly what you both claim to experience through receiving the Holy Spirit, except you don't actually demonstrate it, even though shadownomad4 claims to have the gift of translating spiritual words into a native tongue. You see, when you truly grasp something, the only real proof of that understanding is being able to explain it to someone else who knows nothing about the subject, in a way they can actually understand.

Elizabeth Lewis11 said:Dear Michael Moore3,
Of course you don't understand the Bible—you haven't even made the effort to try. You walked in with a pre-packaged, judgmental attitude toward the Bible, and frankly, I’d bet you haven’t even read it from cover to cover, let alone sat down to actually study or grasp its depth.

That’s exactly why you can't make sense of what shadownomad4 is saying, whereas for me—someone who has been studying the Bible in detail for about fifteen years now—everything is perfectly clear. You simply lack the necessary foundation, and so you end up criticizing what you don't comprehend. You're projecting your own confusion onto shadownomad4, acting as if the flaw lies with him. Besides, those meditative techniques and non-Biblical books only offer the illusion of clarity—they aren't inspired by God. I looked into them myself a long time ago (long before I realized the value of the Bible), and while they provided some answers regarding humanity and the world, they failed to satisfy my spiritual needs. They couldn't, really, because they are religious techniques rather than truly spiritual ones—even if they claim otherwise! It's only when one encounters the Bible that true spiritual needs can be met: reconciliation with God, forgiveness for past sins, and being equipped for a new life free from the bondage of sin. Religious techniques, churches, and various denominations can only cater to your "religious" needs—those fleeting "feelings" of piety, "feelings" of holiness, or "feelings" of oneness with God. It's all built on sensations and experiences—subjective things that are false, distorted, and manipulative because they don't come from God. God speaks to a person's reason: do not kill, have no other gods, love your neighbor—these aren't "feelings" or religious "experiences." They are rational principles and moral mandates designed to shape your character, not to manufacture fake "emotional highs." See, when someone relies solely on their feelings and their own opinions, they are relying on themselves rather than on God. They are building their faith on their own ego instead of on Him. They believe *in* God, but they don't actually trust Him.!!!

I’m not writing this to hurt your feelings or out of any ill intent. I'm saying this to show you that through humble, detailed study of the Bible, one can reach very clear and simple conclusions—conclusions that are essential if we want to understand the true meaning and purpose of life, devotion, and how we ought to act.
Best regards, Elizabeth Lewis11.

That is quite a powerful statement...
But how does one "trust God"? What exactly am I supposed to be trusting Him with?

Elizabeth Lewis11 said:Dear Michael Moore3,
Of course you don't understand the Bible—you haven't even made the effort to try. You walked in with a pre-packaged, judgmental attitude toward the Bible, and frankly, I’d bet you haven’t even read it from cover to cover, let alone sat down to actually study or grasp its depth.

That’s exactly why you can't make sense of what shadownomad4 is saying, whereas for me—someone who has been studying the Bible in detail for about fifteen years now—everything is perfectly clear. You simply lack the necessary foundation, and so you end up criticizing what you don't comprehend. You're projecting your own confusion onto shadownomad4, acting as if the flaw lies with him. Besides, those meditative techniques and non-Biblical books only offer the illusion of clarity—they aren't inspired by God. I looked into them myself a long time ago (long before I realized the value of the Bible), and while they provided some answers regarding humanity and the world, they failed to satisfy my spiritual needs. They couldn't, really, because they are religious techniques rather than truly spiritual ones—even if they claim otherwise! It's only when one encounters the Bible that true spiritual needs can be met: reconciliation with God, forgiveness for past sins, and being equipped for a new life free from the bondage of sin. Religious techniques, churches, and various denominations can only cater to your "religious" needs—those fleeting "feelings" of piety, "feelings" of holiness, or "feelings" of oneness with God. It's all built on sensations and experiences—subjective things that are false, distorted, and manipulative because they don't come from God. God speaks to a person's reason: do not kill, have no other gods, love your neighbor—these aren't "feelings" or religious "experiences." They are rational principles and moral mandates designed to shape your character, not to manufacture fake "emotional highs." See, when someone relies solely on their feelings and their own opinions, they are relying on themselves rather than on God. They are building their faith on their own ego instead of on Him. They believe *in* God, but they don't actually trust Him.!!!

I’m not writing this to hurt your feelings or out of any ill intent. I'm saying this to show you that through humble, detailed study of the Bible, one can reach very clear and simple conclusions—conclusions that are essential if we want to understand the true meaning and purpose of life, devotion, and how we ought to act.
Best regards, Elizabeth Lewis11.

Cheers to all five of you! From where I'm sitting, this looks like nothing but a high-quality debate.
And just to reiterate my point, when I talk about "quality" within the Bible, I am referring exclusively to the statements and teachings of Jesus.
My only hesitation with your perspective is the fear that accepting it might mean discarding other truths—and the specific methods used to uncover them—because without those tools, I'd be forced to accept the Bible on blind faith alone; by keeping them, I can actually study the Bible with an open mind, knowing there are alternative viewpoints out there...

The Holy Spirit is basically Kundalini, or honestly, maybe it’s just that elevated state of consciousness you hit through meditation—you know, Samadhi.

Jesus used a ton of parables when talking to the crowds, but then he’d pull his inner circle aside to actually break them down.
He even mentioned having more to "say," implying people just weren't ready yet. That’s where he brings up the Holy Spirit, who uncovers those extra layers of mystery. At that point, you aren't just reading anymore; you're meditating.
Even long before Jesus, Gjano yoga involved listening (or reading), reflecting, and reaching that meditative insight—which, if you ask me, is pretty much the same thing as the Holy Spirit.

Michael Moore3 said:Since I started taking religious studies back in second grade during the old era when that kind of behavior wasn't exactly encouraged by society, I don't think you can really claim I'm unfamiliar with the Bible; it's quite obvious that I genuinely wanted to know it for myself...
The only real difference between us is that I couldn't quite satisfy my spiritual hunger through the Bible; it was a decent starting point, certainly, but it felt full of gaps and unknowns. But then again, some people choose to build their entire world on such shaky foundations, while others don't, so I decided to seek out all the truths and eventually realized that no single truth is ever the whole truth. That seems to be what you two are missing, because for you, the Bible is the only truth. It's like claiming a single color—say, blue—is the only color that exists, when in reality there is a vast spectrum, much of which lies beyond our visible range. Truth works the same way.

What I am actually "projecting" is a defense against that "my truth is the ultimate truth" attitude that both you and shadownomad4 seem to be pushing. You both seem quite blinded by your own version of the truth. And, as I mentioned earlier, I'm not just making this up as I go; I'm speaking from study and other truths.

Considering how much of the Bible appears to be adapted from the Egyptian Book of the Dead—from the Ten Commandments down to the word "Amen," which stems from Amon; Amon-Ra, translated as "the hidden one" and Ra as "King of the Gods," referring to a single God we cannot see who is the god of gods, the King of Gods...
In any case, the Bible is essentially a transcription of ancient beliefs for a new era, but it certainly isn't the only text regarding God. So, your argument really just circles back to what I said before: the idea that only Biblical truth is the most truthful.
It feels a bit presumptuous, doesn't it, once you realize the Bible is a transcription?

???
Are you truly certain you know what you're talking about? Labeling meditation as a religious technique instead of a spiritual one?
And is reading the Bible a spiritual technique, or a religious one? Or perhaps it's both?
Does meditation create religions that worship the practice itself, whereas the Bible creates spiritually awakened people who don't feel the need to spread religion just to promote the book?
Are you really sure you understand this?
For me, meditation is what drives my spiritual growth, and at no point has it ever pushed me toward joining or starting a religion...

But that is precisely what I never found in the Bible. If anything, the Bible is responsible for my childhood spent wrestling with guilt over certain "sins" supposedly committed against some God I was expected to fear and love simultaneously.
The whole thing is just absurd.
You simply cannot love someone you are terrified of, and besides, "sin" is ultimately defined by one's own internal compass of right and wrong...
One shouldn't fear God, but rather hold Him in reverence. Unfortunately, the Bible failed to teach me that; instead, its teachings seemed almost exclusively focused on instilling fear, right up until the point of Jesus' actual teachings, which finally made sense. In fact, only His direct words carry any weight for me, not the various narratives or descriptions of miracles and healings. Personally, I think equating Jesus' actual teaching with the entirety of the Bible is perhaps the greatest mistake people make when studying His message.

I couldn't agree more with this idea.
In many ways, that is exactly what the Catholic Church does.

However, meditative techniques aren't like that... meditation doesn't make me feel "pious," it makes me feel conscious. That sense of awareness is exactly what you both claim to experience through receiving the Holy Spirit, except you don't actually demonstrate it, even though shadownomad4 claims to have the gift of translating spiritual words into a native tongue. You see, when you truly grasp something, the only real proof of that understanding is being able to explain it to someone else who knows nothing about the subject, in a way they can actually understand.

That is quite a powerful statement...
But how does one "trust God"? What exactly am I supposed to be trusting Him with?

Cheers to all five of you! From where I'm sitting, this looks like nothing but a high-quality debate.
And just to reiterate my point, when I talk about "quality" within the Bible, I am referring exclusively to the statements and teachings of Jesus.
My only hesitation with your perspective is the fear that accepting it might mean discarding other truths—and the specific methods used to uncover them—because without those tools, I'd be forced to accept the Bible on blind faith alone; by keeping them, I can actually study the Bible with an open mind, knowing there are alternative viewpoints out there...

The kind of religious education you get in schools doesn't lead you toward any true purpose or the actual meaning of piety—nor does it teach its genuine values for life. You just get these "light" definitions and dogmas. They aren't really studying the Bible there; they just pluck specific quotes to give church doctrines some sort of "biblical" weight. And frankly, that can't satisfy a person's spiritual needs—something you've experienced firsthand. It’s precisely because many churches teach "church truth" instead of biblical truth that Christianity has lost its true power—its ability to provide concrete, clear answers to life's big questions and equip a person for a victorious life (a life free from the slavery of sin). Instead of turning "sinners" into "righteous people" (those living in the "New Covenant" with God), churches keep Christians captive to church "truths"—dogmas that you aren't even allowed to question. It's ridiculous. Truth is only truly truth when it can withstand any scrutiny or questioning.
That’s why your time in those classes didn't bear much fruit. Even if you were baptized as a child—that’s actually contrary to the Bible. After all, Jesus was baptized as an adult—as a rational, responsible person. The same goes for all the apostles. Therefore, a church baptism holds no real value, because it isn't the independent decision of a mature, rational, and responsible individual. And since baptism marks the start of a new life free from the slavery of sin, that simply isn't possible for children. Children are just beginning to live in sin at that stage: showing selfishness, being quarrelsome, mocking others... because they haven't been released from the slavery of the sinful nature they were born into.

Michael Moore3 said:Since I started taking religious studies back in second grade during the old era when that kind of behavior wasn't exactly encouraged by society, I don't think you can really claim I'm unfamiliar with the Bible; it's quite obvious that I genuinely wanted to know it for myself...
The only real difference between us is that I couldn't quite satisfy my spiritual hunger through the Bible; it was a decent starting point, certainly, but it felt full of gaps and unknowns. But then again, some people choose to build their entire world on such shaky foundations, while others don't, so I decided to seek out all the truths and eventually realized that no single truth is ever the whole truth. That seems to be what you two are missing, because for you, the Bible is the only truth. It's like claiming a single color—say, blue—is the only color that exists, when in reality there is a vast spectrum, much of which lies beyond our visible range. Truth works the same way.

What I am actually "projecting" is a defense against that "my truth is the ultimate truth" attitude that both you and shadownomad4 seem to be pushing. You both seem quite blinded by your own version of the truth. And, as I mentioned earlier, I'm not just making this up as I go; I'm speaking from study and other truths.

Considering how much of the Bible appears to be adapted from the Egyptian Book of the Dead—from the Ten Commandments down to the word "Amen," which stems from Amon; Amon-Ra, translated as "the hidden one" and Ra as "King of the Gods," referring to a single God we cannot see who is the god of gods, the King of Gods...
In any case, the Bible is essentially a transcription of ancient beliefs for a new era, but it certainly isn't the only text regarding God. So, your argument really just circles back to what I said before: the idea that only Biblical truth is the most truthful.
It feels a bit presumptuous, doesn't it, once you realize the Bible is a transcription?

???
Are you truly certain you know what you're talking about? Labeling meditation as a religious technique instead of a spiritual one?
And is reading the Bible a spiritual technique, or a religious one? Or perhaps it's both?
Does meditation create religions that worship the practice itself, whereas the Bible creates spiritually awakened people who don't feel the need to spread religion just to promote the book?
Are you really sure you understand this?
For me, meditation is what drives my spiritual growth, and at no point has it ever pushed me toward joining or starting a religion...

But that is precisely what I never found in the Bible. If anything, the Bible is responsible for my childhood spent wrestling with guilt over certain "sins" supposedly committed against some God I was expected to fear and love simultaneously.
The whole thing is just absurd.
You simply cannot love someone you are terrified of, and besides, "sin" is ultimately defined by one's own internal compass of right and wrong...
One shouldn't fear God, but rather hold Him in reverence. Unfortunately, the Bible failed to teach me that; instead, its teachings seemed almost exclusively focused on instilling fear, right up until the point of Jesus' actual teachings, which finally made sense. In fact, only His direct words carry any weight for me, not the various narratives or descriptions of miracles and healings. Personally, I think equating Jesus' actual teaching with the entirety of the Bible is perhaps the greatest mistake people make when studying His message.

I couldn't agree more with this idea.
In many ways, that is exactly what the Catholic Church does.

However, meditative techniques aren't like that... meditation doesn't make me feel "pious," it makes me feel conscious. That sense of awareness is exactly what you both claim to experience through receiving the Holy Spirit, except you don't actually demonstrate it, even though shadownomad4 claims to have the gift of translating spiritual words into a native tongue. You see, when you truly grasp something, the only real proof of that understanding is being able to explain it to someone else who knows nothing about the subject, in a way they can actually understand.

That is quite a powerful statement...
But how does one "trust God"? What exactly am I supposed to be trusting Him with?

Cheers to all five of you! From where I'm sitting, this looks like nothing but a high-quality debate.
And just to reiterate my point, when I talk about "quality" within the Bible, I am referring exclusively to the statements and teachings of Jesus.
My only hesitation with your perspective is the fear that accepting it might mean discarding other truths—and the specific methods used to uncover them—because without those tools, I'd be forced to accept the Bible on blind faith alone; by keeping them, I can actually study the Bible with an open mind, knowing there are alternative viewpoints out there...

You make a fair point—you are hungry for spiritual nourishment. Unfortunately, this sort of "church" truth and the twisting of the Bible has caused more harm than good.
You moved "beyond" the Bible, whereas I moved "beyond everything"—having discovered the true value of the Bible. It was the thing that finally liberated me from the slavery of sin, guided me toward all the true paths, and equipped me for a quality, meaningful life ("that they may have life in abundance").
As for your comparison of truth to various colors, I can't quite agree with you there. While there might be different "truths" and "half-truths," I am interested in the "absolute truth." The truth that is eternal, which doesn't depend on the current situation or my fleeting opinions. And such truth can only come from the Absolute. That is the God of the Bible. Eastern religions lack an Absolute; for them, "God" is merely a force, an energy, or the universe. Because of that, you can call almost anything "truth" in those systems. That’s why you see "truths" as various colors in a spectrum. But Jesus said of Himself: "I am. put, Truth Quote "And life itself." Honestly, Jesus just pulled back the curtain on some absolute truths—truths that stand in total opposition to everything the church teaches, let alone those "spiritual" Eastern philosophies people love to obsess over.

Michael Moore3 says what he calls his "projection" is really just a defense mechanism against that whole "my truth is the only truth" attitude that shadownomad4 seems to be preaching. It’s a bit much, honestly—this idea that you can be completely blind to everything else while clinging to your own version of reality. And look, I’m not just throwing words at the wall here to see what sticks; I’ve actually put in the work, studying the facts and looking at other truths too.

I don't claim to have some personal version of "my" truth—that’s not really how this works. I hold onto Christ's truth. Everything I believe is anchored firmly in the Bible, which is God's Word. We're talking about the words of the living God—the Absolute—who holds absolute truths. It's that truth that actually sets me free from being enslaved by lies. So, if you're out here claiming that "my" truths aren't actually true, you aren't really "attacking" me—you're attacking the One I put my faith in.

Michael Moore3 said:Since I started taking religious studies back in second grade during the old era when that kind of behavior wasn't exactly encouraged by society, I don't think you can really claim I'm unfamiliar with the Bible; it's quite obvious that I genuinely wanted to know it for myself...
The only real difference between us is that I couldn't quite satisfy my spiritual hunger through the Bible; it was a decent starting point, certainly, but it felt full of gaps and unknowns. But then again, some people choose to build their entire world on such shaky foundations, while others don't, so I decided to seek out all the truths and eventually realized that no single truth is ever the whole truth. That seems to be what you two are missing, because for you, the Bible is the only truth. It's like claiming a single color—say, blue—is the only color that exists, when in reality there is a vast spectrum, much of which lies beyond our visible range. Truth works the same way.

What I am actually "projecting" is a defense against that "my truth is the ultimate truth" attitude that both you and shadownomad4 seem to be pushing. You both seem quite blinded by your own version of the truth. And, as I mentioned earlier, I'm not just making this up as I go; I'm speaking from study and other truths.

Considering how much of the Bible appears to be adapted from the Egyptian Book of the Dead—from the Ten Commandments down to the word "Amen," which stems from Amon; Amon-Ra, translated as "the hidden one" and Ra as "King of the Gods," referring to a single God we cannot see who is the god of gods, the King of Gods...
In any case, the Bible is essentially a transcription of ancient beliefs for a new era, but it certainly isn't the only text regarding God. So, your argument really just circles back to what I said before: the idea that only Biblical truth is the most truthful.
It feels a bit presumptuous, doesn't it, once you realize the Bible is a transcription?

???
Are you truly certain you know what you're talking about? Labeling meditation as a religious technique instead of a spiritual one?
And is reading the Bible a spiritual technique, or a religious one? Or perhaps it's both?
Does meditation create religions that worship the practice itself, whereas the Bible creates spiritually awakened people who don't feel the need to spread religion just to promote the book?
Are you really sure you understand this?
For me, meditation is what drives my spiritual growth, and at no point has it ever pushed me toward joining or starting a religion...

But that is precisely what I never found in the Bible. If anything, the Bible is responsible for my childhood spent wrestling with guilt over certain "sins" supposedly committed against some God I was expected to fear and love simultaneously.
The whole thing is just absurd.
You simply cannot love someone you are terrified of, and besides, "sin" is ultimately defined by one's own internal compass of right and wrong...
One shouldn't fear God, but rather hold Him in reverence. Unfortunately, the Bible failed to teach me that; instead, its teachings seemed almost exclusively focused on instilling fear, right up until the point of Jesus' actual teachings, which finally made sense. In fact, only His direct words carry any weight for me, not the various narratives or descriptions of miracles and healings. Personally, I think equating Jesus' actual teaching with the entirety of the Bible is perhaps the greatest mistake people make when studying His message.

I couldn't agree more with this idea.
In many ways, that is exactly what the Catholic Church does.

However, meditative techniques aren't like that... meditation doesn't make me feel "pious," it makes me feel conscious. That sense of awareness is exactly what you both claim to experience through receiving the Holy Spirit, except you don't actually demonstrate it, even though shadownomad4 claims to have the gift of translating spiritual words into a native tongue. You see, when you truly grasp something, the only real proof of that understanding is being able to explain it to someone else who knows nothing about the subject, in a way they can actually understand.

That is quite a powerful statement...
But how does one "trust God"? What exactly am I supposed to be trusting Him with?

Cheers to all five of you! From where I'm sitting, this looks like nothing but a high-quality debate.
And just to reiterate my point, when I talk about "quality" within the Bible, I am referring exclusively to the statements and teachings of Jesus.
My only hesitation with your perspective is the fear that accepting it might mean discarding other truths—and the specific methods used to uncover them—because without those tools, I'd be forced to accept the Bible on blind faith alone; by keeping them, I can actually study the Bible with an open mind, knowing there are alternative viewpoints out there...

Look, nothing has ever actually been proven. Nonsense has always existed, and frankly, it isn’t going anywhere. The God of the Bible systematically dismantles Egypt and its entire pantheon—tearing down an entire civilization just to lead the Hebrews out of bondage—yet you have these so-called "super-scientists" trying to argue that the Bible was just some recycled Egyptian script. It’s laughable, really. Furthermore, the Ten Commandments explicitly forbid any idols or images, whereas Egypt was practically overflowing with them. So, the idea that the Decalogue was lifted from Egyptian texts is just top-tier stupidity. It seems pretty obvious to me that enemies of the Truth Quote will use any tool available to diminish the actual weight of the Bible. Just look at "The Da Vinci Code"—it’s enough to make you die laughing. And what was it written by? "Scientists," apparently—all those great, wise minds! I honestly don't know how much more nonsense I can stomach regarding Jesus, the Bible, or Mary. Truly, certain twisted minds find endless inspiration in the Bible, twisting and distorting it to fit their own warped perceptions. But the Bible is capable of weathering any storm—simply because it is the truth. That is where its power lies. It has the strength to turn people away from evil and toward good; to take a drunkard or a degenerate and turn them into a decent human being; and to help folks break free from the dark influence of spiritism and the occult that they stumble into while chasing after fake "truths."
The Bible makes a pretty bold claim for itself—that it’s the word of God—and honestly, it backs that up every single day. Now, if there happens to be some other book out there making similar claims (though I can't say I'm aware of any), then we have a very simple litmus test: run it through the Bible. Once you do, those supposed "truths" tend to fall apart pretty quickly. At the end of the day, the Bible stands alone as the only source of absolute truth, simply because its Author is Absolute.

Michael Moore3 said:Since I started taking religious studies back in second grade during the old era when that kind of behavior wasn't exactly encouraged by society, I don't think you can really claim I'm unfamiliar with the Bible; it's quite obvious that I genuinely wanted to know it for myself...
The only real difference between us is that I couldn't quite satisfy my spiritual hunger through the Bible; it was a decent starting point, certainly, but it felt full of gaps and unknowns. But then again, some people choose to build their entire world on such shaky foundations, while others don't, so I decided to seek out all the truths and eventually realized that no single truth is ever the whole truth. That seems to be what you two are missing, because for you, the Bible is the only truth. It's like claiming a single color—say, blue—is the only color that exists, when in reality there is a vast spectrum, much of which lies beyond our visible range. Truth works the same way.

What I am actually "projecting" is a defense against that "my truth is the ultimate truth" attitude that both you and shadownomad4 seem to be pushing. You both seem quite blinded by your own version of the truth. And, as I mentioned earlier, I'm not just making this up as I go; I'm speaking from study and other truths.

Considering how much of the Bible appears to be adapted from the Egyptian Book of the Dead—from the Ten Commandments down to the word "Amen," which stems from Amon; Amon-Ra, translated as "the hidden one" and Ra as "King of the Gods," referring to a single God we cannot see who is the god of gods, the King of Gods...
In any case, the Bible is essentially a transcription of ancient beliefs for a new era, but it certainly isn't the only text regarding God. So, your argument really just circles back to what I said before: the idea that only Biblical truth is the most truthful.
It feels a bit presumptuous, doesn't it, once you realize the Bible is a transcription?

???
Are you truly certain you know what you're talking about? Labeling meditation as a religious technique instead of a spiritual one?
And is reading the Bible a spiritual technique, or a religious one? Or perhaps it's both?
Does meditation create religions that worship the practice itself, whereas the Bible creates spiritually awakened people who don't feel the need to spread religion just to promote the book?
Are you really sure you understand this?
For me, meditation is what drives my spiritual growth, and at no point has it ever pushed me toward joining or starting a religion...

But that is precisely what I never found in the Bible. If anything, the Bible is responsible for my childhood spent wrestling with guilt over certain "sins" supposedly committed against some God I was expected to fear and love simultaneously.
The whole thing is just absurd.
You simply cannot love someone you are terrified of, and besides, "sin" is ultimately defined by one's own internal compass of right and wrong...
One shouldn't fear God, but rather hold Him in reverence. Unfortunately, the Bible failed to teach me that; instead, its teachings seemed almost exclusively focused on instilling fear, right up until the point of Jesus' actual teachings, which finally made sense. In fact, only His direct words carry any weight for me, not the various narratives or descriptions of miracles and healings. Personally, I think equating Jesus' actual teaching with the entirety of the Bible is perhaps the greatest mistake people make when studying His message.

I couldn't agree more with this idea.
In many ways, that is exactly what the Catholic Church does.

However, meditative techniques aren't like that... meditation doesn't make me feel "pious," it makes me feel conscious. That sense of awareness is exactly what you both claim to experience through receiving the Holy Spirit, except you don't actually demonstrate it, even though shadownomad4 claims to have the gift of translating spiritual words into a native tongue. You see, when you truly grasp something, the only real proof of that understanding is being able to explain it to someone else who knows nothing about the subject, in a way they can actually understand.

That is quite a powerful statement...
But how does one "trust God"? What exactly am I supposed to be trusting Him with?

Cheers to all five of you! From where I'm sitting, this looks like nothing but a high-quality debate.
And just to reiterate my point, when I talk about "quality" within the Bible, I am referring exclusively to the statements and teachings of Jesus.
My only hesitation with your perspective is the fear that accepting it might mean discarding other truths—and the specific methods used to uncover them—because without those tools, I'd be forced to accept the Bible on blind faith alone; by keeping them, I can actually study the Bible with an open mind, knowing there are alternative viewpoints out there...

Now, this is a massive topic to unpack. Honestly, you’d need to grasp the fundamental distinction between spirituality and religiosity before anything else would make any sense to you. But let's save that for another time.

Michael Moore3 said:Since I started taking religious studies back in second grade during the old era when that kind of behavior wasn't exactly encouraged by society, I don't think you can really claim I'm unfamiliar with the Bible; it's quite obvious that I genuinely wanted to know it for myself...
The only real difference between us is that I couldn't quite satisfy my spiritual hunger through the Bible; it was a decent starting point, certainly, but it felt full of gaps and unknowns. But then again, some people choose to build their entire world on such shaky foundations, while others don't, so I decided to seek out all the truths and eventually realized that no single truth is ever the whole truth. That seems to be what you two are missing, because for you, the Bible is the only truth. It's like claiming a single color—say, blue—is the only color that exists, when in reality there is a vast spectrum, much of which lies beyond our visible range. Truth works the same way.

What I am actually "projecting" is a defense against that "my truth is the ultimate truth" attitude that both you and shadownomad4 seem to be pushing. You both seem quite blinded by your own version of the truth. And, as I mentioned earlier, I'm not just making this up as I go; I'm speaking from study and other truths.

Considering how much of the Bible appears to be adapted from the Egyptian Book of the Dead—from the Ten Commandments down to the word "Amen," which stems from Amon; Amon-Ra, translated as "the hidden one" and Ra as "King of the Gods," referring to a single God we cannot see who is the god of gods, the King of Gods...
In any case, the Bible is essentially a transcription of ancient beliefs for a new era, but it certainly isn't the only text regarding God. So, your argument really just circles back to what I said before: the idea that only Biblical truth is the most truthful.
It feels a bit presumptuous, doesn't it, once you realize the Bible is a transcription?

???
Are you truly certain you know what you're talking about? Labeling meditation as a religious technique instead of a spiritual one?
And is reading the Bible a spiritual technique, or a religious one? Or perhaps it's both?
Does meditation create religions that worship the practice itself, whereas the Bible creates spiritually awakened people who don't feel the need to spread religion just to promote the book?
Are you really sure you understand this?
For me, meditation is what drives my spiritual growth, and at no point has it ever pushed me toward joining or starting a religion...

But that is precisely what I never found in the Bible. If anything, the Bible is responsible for my childhood spent wrestling with guilt over certain "sins" supposedly committed against some God I was expected to fear and love simultaneously.
The whole thing is just absurd.
You simply cannot love someone you are terrified of, and besides, "sin" is ultimately defined by one's own internal compass of right and wrong...
One shouldn't fear God, but rather hold Him in reverence. Unfortunately, the Bible failed to teach me that; instead, its teachings seemed almost exclusively focused on instilling fear, right up until the point of Jesus' actual teachings, which finally made sense. In fact, only His direct words carry any weight for me, not the various narratives or descriptions of miracles and healings. Personally, I think equating Jesus' actual teaching with the entirety of the Bible is perhaps the greatest mistake people make when studying His message.

I couldn't agree more with this idea.
In many ways, that is exactly what the Catholic Church does.

However, meditative techniques aren't like that... meditation doesn't make me feel "pious," it makes me feel conscious. That sense of awareness is exactly what you both claim to experience through receiving the Holy Spirit, except you don't actually demonstrate it, even though shadownomad4 claims to have the gift of translating spiritual words into a native tongue. You see, when you truly grasp something, the only real proof of that understanding is being able to explain it to someone else who knows nothing about the subject, in a way they can actually understand.

That is quite a powerful statement...
But how does one "trust God"? What exactly am I supposed to be trusting Him with?

Cheers to all five of you! From where I'm sitting, this looks like nothing but a high-quality debate.
And just to reiterate my point, when I talk about "quality" within the Bible, I am referring exclusively to the statements and teachings of Jesus.
My only hesitation with your perspective is the fear that accepting it might mean discarding other truths—and the specific methods used to uncover them—because without those tools, I'd be forced to accept the Bible on blind faith alone; by keeping them, I can actually study the Bible with an open mind, knowing there are alternative viewpoints out there...

Look, you simply didn't understand the Bible. You didn't even have teachers who understood it, so they had no chance of instructing you properly. They were merely quoting verses without grasping their actual meaning. They were like a DVD player—just playing back whatever was on the disc without understanding the content. They failed to perceive the spiritual value of the Bible because they were viewing it through the lens of their own religiosity, so they couldn't teach you anything real. That's why you were left feeling confused. Your question is actually quite profound: "how can I love someone I fear?" Even the Bible itself states, "There is no fear in love; instead, perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not complete in love." 1 John 4:18
You say they didn't teach you to respect God. Not only should they have done that, but they should have gone much, much further. They should have taught you how to trust God. How to have genuine faith in Him. How to discover your Creator and your true Friend within Him. Instead of presenting God through love, they presented Him through fear—because religions tend to lead their followers via intimidation. It’s a way to keep people submissive to the institution—keeping them busy trying to appease a "terrifying and merciless" God through endless rituals.
Unfortunately, Eastern religions won't guide you toward God as a Person (a Creator, a Friend) either—they point you toward a faceless force or energy. Consequently, as an individual, you won't find a relationship (a "New Covenant") with God, because you're being taught by books written by "teachers" who wandered away from the Absolute. It's a shame, really.

Nastavak:

Michael Moore3 said:Since I started taking religious studies back in second grade during the old era when that kind of behavior wasn't exactly encouraged by society, I don't think you can really claim I'm unfamiliar with the Bible; it's quite obvious that I genuinely wanted to know it for myself...
The only real difference between us is that I couldn't quite satisfy my spiritual hunger through the Bible; it was a decent starting point, certainly, but it felt full of gaps and unknowns. But then again, some people choose to build their entire world on such shaky foundations, while others don't, so I decided to seek out all the truths and eventually realized that no single truth is ever the whole truth. That seems to be what you two are missing, because for you, the Bible is the only truth. It's like claiming a single color—say, blue—is the only color that exists, when in reality there is a vast spectrum, much of which lies beyond our visible range. Truth works the same way.

What I am actually "projecting" is a defense against that "my truth is the ultimate truth" attitude that both you and shadownomad4 seem to be pushing. You both seem quite blinded by your own version of the truth. And, as I mentioned earlier, I'm not just making this up as I go; I'm speaking from study and other truths.

Considering how much of the Bible appears to be adapted from the Egyptian Book of the Dead—from the Ten Commandments down to the word "Amen," which stems from Amon; Amon-Ra, translated as "the hidden one" and Ra as "King of the Gods," referring to a single God we cannot see who is the god of gods, the King of Gods...
In any case, the Bible is essentially a transcription of ancient beliefs for a new era, but it certainly isn't the only text regarding God. So, your argument really just circles back to what I said before: the idea that only Biblical truth is the most truthful.
It feels a bit presumptuous, doesn't it, once you realize the Bible is a transcription?

???
Are you truly certain you know what you're talking about? Labeling meditation as a religious technique instead of a spiritual one?
And is reading the Bible a spiritual technique, or a religious one? Or perhaps it's both?
Does meditation create religions that worship the practice itself, whereas the Bible creates spiritually awakened people who don't feel the need to spread religion just to promote the book?
Are you really sure you understand this?
For me, meditation is what drives my spiritual growth, and at no point has it ever pushed me toward joining or starting a religion...

But that is precisely what I never found in the Bible. If anything, the Bible is responsible for my childhood spent wrestling with guilt over certain "sins" supposedly committed against some God I was expected to fear and love simultaneously.
The whole thing is just absurd.
You simply cannot love someone you are terrified of, and besides, "sin" is ultimately defined by one's own internal compass of right and wrong...
One shouldn't fear God, but rather hold Him in reverence. Unfortunately, the Bible failed to teach me that; instead, its teachings seemed almost exclusively focused on instilling fear, right up until the point of Jesus' actual teachings, which finally made sense. In fact, only His direct words carry any weight for me, not the various narratives or descriptions of miracles and healings. Personally, I think equating Jesus' actual teaching with the entirety of the Bible is perhaps the greatest mistake people make when studying His message.

I couldn't agree more with this idea.
In many ways, that is exactly what the Catholic Church does.

However, meditative techniques aren't like that... meditation doesn't make me feel "pious," it makes me feel conscious. That sense of awareness is exactly what you both claim to experience through receiving the Holy Spirit, except you don't actually demonstrate it, even though shadownomad4 claims to have the gift of translating spiritual words into a native tongue. You see, when you truly grasp something, the only real proof of that understanding is being able to explain it to someone else who knows nothing about the subject, in a way they can actually understand.

That is quite a powerful statement...
But how does one "trust God"? What exactly am I supposed to be trusting Him with?

Cheers to all five of you! From where I'm sitting, this looks like nothing but a high-quality debate.
And just to reiterate my point, when I talk about "quality" within the Bible, I am referring exclusively to the statements and teachings of Jesus.
My only hesitation with your perspective is the fear that accepting it might mean discarding other truths—and the specific methods used to uncover them—because without those tools, I'd be forced to accept the Bible on blind faith alone; by keeping them, I can actually study the Bible with an open mind, knowing there are alternative viewpoints out there...

Your consciousness and mine—they aren't exactly cut from the same cloth. You see, your perception is anchored to a specific set of "truths" you’ve gathered from the books on your shelf—books that seem to validate themselves through certain religious practices and those intense, emotional surges you hit during meditation. Essentially, you’ve placed your faith in what you feel while you're sitting there in silence. In short, you believe. I suppose I should start by being honest with myself—though that’s always been a bit of a struggle, hasn't it? It’s easy to get lost in the noise of everything else, drifting through the day without really checking in on what’s actually happening under the surface. I tend to wander off on these long, winding paths—much like my own thoughts, which rarely follow a straight line—and I often forget that the most important work happens internally. It's a slow process, a measured one, and frankly, a bit exhausting at times. But I'm trying. I'm trying to be more intentional, even if my attempts at being "composed" usually end up feeling a little bit ridiculous..
I believe in God—period. It doesn’t matter that I don't feel anything particularly special, nor do I go around chasing some sort of profound spiritual epiphany or "peak experience." My faith isn't rooted in myself—not in my fleeting emotional highs, nor in whatever transient mental states I might be cycling through at any given moment. If God says something, I do it. Plain and simple. Because I trust Him. I’m not out here hunting for internal validation or looking for some sign within my own "consciousness levels" to tell me I'm doing it right. Faith isn't an emotional rollercoaster; it's just following what He said.

My own consciousness stands as a witness to the Bible being the absolute truth. It’s my conviction that Jesus is truly "the way, the truth, and the life." Honestly, I can only attribute this clarity to the work of the Holy Spirit—because if it weren't for Him, I’d just be stuck believing in "myself"—relying on my own misguided opinions about God, piety, or what a Christian life ought to look like. I'd be lost in the whims of my own emotions or those fleeting, pious feelings one gets during a church service or similar rituals.

Regarding what shadownomad4 claimed about being able to translate various languages back into his native tongue—well, frankly, that just doesn't square with the Bible. In his particular Christian community, they treat the "gift of tongues" as this singular, extraordinary gift from God, even though if you actually look at Scripture, it’s listed as just one among many different gifts. To them, it serves as their ultimate "proof" that God is present among them. They fall into these trances during worship services, and once they feel some force taking hold—which they insist is the Holy Spirit—they start shouting, jumping around, making all sorts of noise, and speaking in unknown tongues. But in my view, that isn't the work of the Holy Spirit. After all, there's no practical value to it.
"The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets, because God isn't a God of chaos—He's a God of order." So, look—when the Holy Spirit truly takes hold of a person, it’s not some frantic, chaotic whirlwind that just tosses them around in a fit of mindless shouting or manic frenzy. That's not how it works. Instead, the Holy Spirit actually submits to the prophet. He doesn't overpower them; rather, He guides them—providing that specific inspiration needed to grasp or "see" a particular divine revelation or word from God.
When you look at what actually happened during Pentecost in Acts chapter 2, people tend to get it all twisted. They jump straight to the idea of speaking "angelic" tongues—which, let’s be honest, sounds much more poetic than the reality—but that isn't what the text is actually describing. It wasn't some mystical, celestial dialect; it was about speaking foreign languages. Plain and simple. You had these uneducated fishermen and rural folks suddenly gifted by the Holy Spirit with the ability to speak the native tongues of the surrounding nations. Why? Because there was a practical purpose behind it. It wasn't just for show; they were given this specific gift so they could effectively deliver the Good News about Jesus Christ to everyone listening. It was a functional, purposeful gift from the Holy Spirit, designed to bridge a communication gap, not just to sound impressive.

Michael Moore3 said:Since I started taking religious studies back in second grade during the old era when that kind of behavior wasn't exactly encouraged by society, I don't think you can really claim I'm unfamiliar with the Bible; it's quite obvious that I genuinely wanted to know it for myself...
The only real difference between us is that I couldn't quite satisfy my spiritual hunger through the Bible; it was a decent starting point, certainly, but it felt full of gaps and unknowns. But then again, some people choose to build their entire world on such shaky foundations, while others don't, so I decided to seek out all the truths and eventually realized that no single truth is ever the whole truth. That seems to be what you two are missing, because for you, the Bible is the only truth. It's like claiming a single color—say, blue—is the only color that exists, when in reality there is a vast spectrum, much of which lies beyond our visible range. Truth works the same way.

What I am actually "projecting" is a defense against that "my truth is the ultimate truth" attitude that both you and shadownomad4 seem to be pushing. You both seem quite blinded by your own version of the truth. And, as I mentioned earlier, I'm not just making this up as I go; I'm speaking from study and other truths.

Considering how much of the Bible appears to be adapted from the Egyptian Book of the Dead—from the Ten Commandments down to the word "Amen," which stems from Amon; Amon-Ra, translated as "the hidden one" and Ra as "King of the Gods," referring to a single God we cannot see who is the god of gods, the King of Gods...
In any case, the Bible is essentially a transcription of ancient beliefs for a new era, but it certainly isn't the only text regarding God. So, your argument really just circles back to what I said before: the idea that only Biblical truth is the most truthful.
It feels a bit presumptuous, doesn't it, once you realize the Bible is a transcription?

???
Are you truly certain you know what you're talking about? Labeling meditation as a religious technique instead of a spiritual one?
And is reading the Bible a spiritual technique, or a religious one? Or perhaps it's both?
Does meditation create religions that worship the practice itself, whereas the Bible creates spiritually awakened people who don't feel the need to spread religion just to promote the book?
Are you really sure you understand this?
For me, meditation is what drives my spiritual growth, and at no point has it ever pushed me toward joining or starting a religion...

But that is precisely what I never found in the Bible. If anything, the Bible is responsible for my childhood spent wrestling with guilt over certain "sins" supposedly committed against some God I was expected to fear and love simultaneously.
The whole thing is just absurd.
You simply cannot love someone you are terrified of, and besides, "sin" is ultimately defined by one's own internal compass of right and wrong...
One shouldn't fear God, but rather hold Him in reverence. Unfortunately, the Bible failed to teach me that; instead, its teachings seemed almost exclusively focused on instilling fear, right up until the point of Jesus' actual teachings, which finally made sense. In fact, only His direct words carry any weight for me, not the various narratives or descriptions of miracles and healings. Personally, I think equating Jesus' actual teaching with the entirety of the Bible is perhaps the greatest mistake people make when studying His message.

I couldn't agree more with this idea.
In many ways, that is exactly what the Catholic Church does.

However, meditative techniques aren't like that... meditation doesn't make me feel "pious," it makes me feel conscious. That sense of awareness is exactly what you both claim to experience through receiving the Holy Spirit, except you don't actually demonstrate it, even though shadownomad4 claims to have the gift of translating spiritual words into a native tongue. You see, when you truly grasp something, the only real proof of that understanding is being able to explain it to someone else who knows nothing about the subject, in a way they can actually understand.

That is quite a powerful statement...
But how does one "trust God"? What exactly am I supposed to be trusting Him with?

Cheers to all five of you! From where I'm sitting, this looks like nothing but a high-quality debate.
And just to reiterate my point, when I talk about "quality" within the Bible, I am referring exclusively to the statements and teachings of Jesus.
My only hesitation with your perspective is the fear that accepting it might mean discarding other truths—and the specific methods used to uncover them—because without those tools, I'd be forced to accept the Bible on blind faith alone; by keeping them, I can actually study the Bible with an open mind, knowing there are alternative viewpoints out there...

To "believe in God" basically just means you accept that He exists—that He’s the Creator, the one who penned the Bible, and all that. It’s essentially believing a few things *about* God. Honestly, if we're being real, it's a pretty shallow way to look at it—just sitting there on this superficial, "informational" level.
To "believe in God" means trusting Him as your Father, as the Creator, and as a Friend. When He issues a command—well, you follow it simply because you trust His heart. When you dig into the Bible, you aren't just reading old ink; you're searching for the good He intends to teach you—the specific kind of character He wants to forge within you. You read that God is love, yet also justice. And honestly, it’s the only way it makes sense. Through love, God sustains life; He provides His children with everything necessary for happiness and success. But at the same time, He shields them from the evil that exists in this world—evil that persists solely because of human choice. It makes you love Him even more, knowing He doesn't just hand out life, family, and joy, but that He is watching over you every single moment to ensure evil doesn't overtake you. And in those inevitable moments where He allows evil to touch you—you see it as a "test" of your loyalty to Him. You end up loving Him even more, because He is guiding you through life with such steady, gentle hands. Why can you trust Him unconditionally, even when He allows us to be tested by darkness? Because: "«No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.» 1 Corinthians 10:13
The God of the Bible is magnificent. Personal. The Creator. The Redeemer. The Judge of evil. The Friend of all that is good.

Michael Moore3 said:Since I started taking religious studies back in second grade during the old era when that kind of behavior wasn't exactly encouraged by society, I don't think you can really claim I'm unfamiliar with the Bible; it's quite obvious that I genuinely wanted to know it for myself...
The only real difference between us is that I couldn't quite satisfy my spiritual hunger through the Bible; it was a decent starting point, certainly, but it felt full of gaps and unknowns. But then again, some people choose to build their entire world on such shaky foundations, while others don't, so I decided to seek out all the truths and eventually realized that no single truth is ever the whole truth. That seems to be what you two are missing, because for you, the Bible is the only truth. It's like claiming a single color—say, blue—is the only color that exists, when in reality there is a vast spectrum, much of which lies beyond our visible range. Truth works the same way.

What I am actually "projecting" is a defense against that "my truth is the ultimate truth" attitude that both you and shadownomad4 seem to be pushing. You both seem quite blinded by your own version of the truth. And, as I mentioned earlier, I'm not just making this up as I go; I'm speaking from study and other truths.

Considering how much of the Bible appears to be adapted from the Egyptian Book of the Dead—from the Ten Commandments down to the word "Amen," which stems from Amon; Amon-Ra, translated as "the hidden one" and Ra as "King of the Gods," referring to a single God we cannot see who is the god of gods, the King of Gods...
In any case, the Bible is essentially a transcription of ancient beliefs for a new era, but it certainly isn't the only text regarding God. So, your argument really just circles back to what I said before: the idea that only Biblical truth is the most truthful.
It feels a bit presumptuous, doesn't it, once you realize the Bible is a transcription?

???
Are you truly certain you know what you're talking about? Labeling meditation as a religious technique instead of a spiritual one?
And is reading the Bible a spiritual technique, or a religious one? Or perhaps it's both?
Does meditation create religions that worship the practice itself, whereas the Bible creates spiritually awakened people who don't feel the need to spread religion just to promote the book?
Are you really sure you understand this?
For me, meditation is what drives my spiritual growth, and at no point has it ever pushed me toward joining or starting a religion...

But that is precisely what I never found in the Bible. If anything, the Bible is responsible for my childhood spent wrestling with guilt over certain "sins" supposedly committed against some God I was expected to fear and love simultaneously.
The whole thing is just absurd.
You simply cannot love someone you are terrified of, and besides, "sin" is ultimately defined by one's own internal compass of right and wrong...
One shouldn't fear God, but rather hold Him in reverence. Unfortunately, the Bible failed to teach me that; instead, its teachings seemed almost exclusively focused on instilling fear, right up until the point of Jesus' actual teachings, which finally made sense. In fact, only His direct words carry any weight for me, not the various narratives or descriptions of miracles and healings. Personally, I think equating Jesus' actual teaching with the entirety of the Bible is perhaps the greatest mistake people make when studying His message.

I couldn't agree more with this idea.
In many ways, that is exactly what the Catholic Church does.

However, meditative techniques aren't like that... meditation doesn't make me feel "pious," it makes me feel conscious. That sense of awareness is exactly what you both claim to experience through receiving the Holy Spirit, except you don't actually demonstrate it, even though shadownomad4 claims to have the gift of translating spiritual words into a native tongue. You see, when you truly grasp something, the only real proof of that understanding is being able to explain it to someone else who knows nothing about the subject, in a way they can actually understand.

That is quite a powerful statement...
But how does one "trust God"? What exactly am I supposed to be trusting Him with?

Cheers to all five of you! From where I'm sitting, this looks like nothing but a high-quality debate.
And just to reiterate my point, when I talk about "quality" within the Bible, I am referring exclusively to the statements and teachings of Jesus.
My only hesitation with your perspective is the fear that accepting it might mean discarding other truths—and the specific methods used to uncover them—because without those tools, I'd be forced to accept the Bible on blind faith alone; by keeping them, I can actually study the Bible with an open mind, knowing there are alternative viewpoints out there...

Jesus' own words are merely the "peak" of the wonderful biblical truths. From the first page to the last, the Bible is a magnificent divine revelation to humanity. Anyone sincerely searching for meaning and purpose in life will surely find it in the Bible. "For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds" (Matthew 7:8)
It's a tragedy, really, that Christian churches have established a "monopoly" on Christianity. Now, when we look at the institutions and the believers they have shaped, we find ourselves recoiling from the Bible, from Christianity, and from the God of the Bible. All because they have distorted clear and beautiful biblical truths. In doing so, they misrepresent God. Much like Satan does.

I'm glad we can exchange thoughts so calmly and openly. And I truly hope that your trust in the Biblical God grows—not based on my little text here, but through your own personal study of the Bible as the magnificent Word of God. Warm regards

mistygull16 said:The Holy Spirit is basically Kundalini, or honestly, maybe it’s just that elevated state of consciousness you hit through meditation—you know, Samadhi.

Jesus used a ton of parables when talking to the crowds, but then he’d pull his inner circle aside to actually break them down.
He even mentioned having more to "say," implying people just weren't ready yet. That’s where he brings up the Holy Spirit, who uncovers those extra layers of mystery. At that point, you aren't just reading anymore; you're meditating.
Even long before Jesus, Gjano yoga involved listening (or reading), reflecting, and reaching that meditative insight—which, if you ask me, is pretty much the same thing as the Holy Spirit.

mistygull16,
The Holy Spirit and Kundalini are as different as "heaven and earth." See, the Holy Spirit is a Person. Kundalini is just "energy."

Jesus told the apostles that they would be taught all things by the Holy Spirit when He comes. Not Eastern mystics!!! And after Jesus ascended, the apostles received the Holy Spirit—a Person who guided their lives and taught them everything they couldn't quite grasp during those three years they spent with Jesus. It’s funny how people always try to bend things to suit their own narrative, isn't it? You're attempting to use biblical statements to validate Eastern concepts, but that argument falls apart pretty quickly under scrutiny.🙂

Elizabeth Lewis11 said:mistygull16,
The Holy Spirit and Kundalini are as different as "heaven and earth." See, the Holy Spirit is a Person. Kundalini is just "energy."

Jesus told the apostles that they would be taught all things by the Holy Spirit when He comes. Not Eastern mystics!!! And after Jesus ascended, the apostles received the Holy Spirit—a Person who guided their lives and taught them everything they couldn't quite grasp during those three years they spent with Jesus. It’s funny how people always try to bend things to suit their own narrative, isn't it? You're attempting to use biblical statements to validate Eastern concepts, but that argument falls apart pretty quickly under scrutiny.🙂

God reveals Himself in every era. People say the Rig Veda is even older than the Bible, and honestly, spirituality is what makes us human. It’s always been there; we didn't need to wait for some priest, pastor, or new prophet to show up. Christianity is only 2,000 years old—that's nothing compared to the long history of spiritual traditions in the "East." It would be pretty pathetic if God only revealed Himself to one tiny little sect. Sure, you might say the Bible needs a teacher, but that teacher needs to actually grasp reality. I could grab a Bible and claim I’m the only one who understands it, but then something’s clearly broken with the Revelation if only a handful of people get it while everyone else is just destined for eternal suffering. Back in the day, Jesus taught things that some people understood, but really, He was just tailoring His message to the mindset of the people at that time. There were plenty of great sons of God throughout history, all speaking the same Truth, but then you had the fanatics who pushed themselves and their specific god as the only way. They remind me of those die-hard sports fans who spend the whole time before a big game intimidating rival fans, just convinced their team is the only one that matters.
Sorry, but how are members of exclusive Christian groups any different from those hardcore sports hooligans? One group gets into fistfights, but religious fanatics? They kill the soul.
Jesus taught the Truth, and the Truth isn't tied to being Eastern or Western. Sometimes spirituality is more prevalent over here, sometimes it's over there... but the point is, we just need to find our way into the Truth.

Tihica, I only partially agree with the idea that religions distort the image of God; personally, I find religion to be a complete detour in the search for God.

However, I have to disagree with your premise that God is a person. That line of thinking usually leads to the misconception that Jesus is God, which isn't quite right. Jesus never claimed to be God himself... though he did frequently refer to himself as the Son of God, just as he noted we are all children of God. To me, his point was that we are all equal before God.
The mistake lies in deifying Jesus—we should simply be grateful for his teachings and leave it at that. One shouldn't pray to Jesus or follow him blindly. His teaching is what should be followed. After all, Jesus is merely one of many Christs who walked this earth, and anyone can become a Christ the moment they achieve an awareness of God.

Furthermore, the Old Testament of the Bible presents a "God" who can be characterized as a persona. He even has a name: Yahweh... but he isn't the God that Jesus teaches about.
Given how various technologies granted by this Yahweh to his followers are depicted in many parts of the Old Testament, I would go so far as to say we are looking at some kind of higher entity—something powerful enough that we mortals in the material dimension could easily mistake it for "God."

Elizabeth Lewis11 said:Nastavak:

Your consciousness and mine—they aren't exactly cut from the same cloth. You see, your perception is anchored to a specific set of "truths" you’ve gathered from the books on your shelf—books that seem to validate themselves through certain religious practices and those intense, emotional surges you hit during meditation. Essentially, you’ve placed your faith in what you feel while you're sitting there in silence. In short, you believe. I suppose I should start by being honest with myself—though that’s always been a bit of a struggle, hasn't it? It’s easy to get lost in the noise of everything else, drifting through the day without really checking in on what’s actually happening under the surface. I tend to wander off on these long, winding paths—much like my own thoughts, which rarely follow a straight line—and I often forget that the most important work happens internally. It's a slow process, a measured one, and frankly, a bit exhausting at times. But I'm trying. I'm trying to be more intentional, even if my attempts at being "composed" usually end up feeling a little bit ridiculous..
I believe in God—period. It doesn’t matter that I don't feel anything particularly special, nor do I go around chasing some sort of profound spiritual epiphany or "peak experience." My faith isn't rooted in myself—not in my fleeting emotional highs, nor in whatever transient mental states I might be cycling through at any given moment. If God says something, I do it. Plain and simple. Because I trust Him. I’m not out here hunting for internal validation or looking for some sign within my own "consciousness levels" to tell me I'm doing it right. Faith isn't an emotional rollercoaster; it's just following what He said.

My own consciousness stands as a witness to the Bible being the absolute truth. It’s my conviction that Jesus is truly "the way, the truth, and the life." Honestly, I can only attribute this clarity to the work of the Holy Spirit—because if it weren't for Him, I’d just be stuck believing in "myself"—relying on my own misguided opinions about God, piety, or what a Christian life ought to look like. I'd be lost in the whims of my own emotions or those fleeting, pious feelings one gets during a church service or similar rituals.

Regarding what shadownomad4 claimed about being able to translate various languages back into his native tongue—well, frankly, that just doesn't square with the Bible. In his particular Christian community, they treat the "gift of tongues" as this singular, extraordinary gift from God, even though if you actually look at Scripture, it’s listed as just one among many different gifts. To them, it serves as their ultimate "proof" that God is present among them. They fall into these trances during worship services, and once they feel some force taking hold—which they insist is the Holy Spirit—they start shouting, jumping around, making all sorts of noise, and speaking in unknown tongues. But in my view, that isn't the work of the Holy Spirit. After all, there's no practical value to it.
"The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets, because God isn't a God of chaos—He's a God of order." So, look—when the Holy Spirit truly takes hold of a person, it’s not some frantic, chaotic whirlwind that just tosses them around in a fit of mindless shouting or manic frenzy. That's not how it works. Instead, the Holy Spirit actually submits to the prophet. He doesn't overpower them; rather, He guides them—providing that specific inspiration needed to grasp or "see" a particular divine revelation or word from God.
When you look at what actually happened during Pentecost in Acts chapter 2, people tend to get it all twisted. They jump straight to the idea of speaking "angelic" tongues—which, let’s be honest, sounds much more poetic than the reality—but that isn't what the text is actually describing. It wasn't some mystical, celestial dialect; it was about speaking foreign languages. Plain and simple. You had these uneducated fishermen and rural folks suddenly gifted by the Holy Spirit with the ability to speak the native tongues of the surrounding nations. Why? Because there was a practical purpose behind it. It wasn't just for show; they were given this specific gift so they could effectively deliver the Good News about Jesus Christ to everyone listening. It was a functional, purposeful gift from the Holy Spirit, designed to bridge a communication gap, not just to sound impressive.

To "believe in God" basically just means you accept that He exists—that He’s the Creator, the one who penned the Bible, and all that. It’s essentially believing a few things *about* God. Honestly, if we're being real, it's a pretty shallow way to look at it—just sitting there on this superficial, "informational" level.
To "believe in God" means trusting Him as your Father, as the Creator, and as a Friend. When He issues a command—well, you follow it simply because you trust His heart. When you dig into the Bible, you aren't just reading old ink; you're searching for the good He intends to teach you—the specific kind of character He wants to forge within you. You read that God is love, yet also justice. And honestly, it’s the only way it makes sense. Through love, God sustains life; He provides His children with everything necessary for happiness and success. But at the same time, He shields them from the evil that exists in this world—evil that persists solely because of human choice. It makes you love Him even more, knowing He doesn't just hand out life, family, and joy, but that He is watching over you every single moment to ensure evil doesn't overtake you. And in those inevitable moments where He allows evil to touch you—you see it as a "test" of your loyalty to Him. You end up loving Him even more, because He is guiding you through life with such steady, gentle hands. Why can you trust Him unconditionally, even when He allows us to be tested by darkness? Because: "«No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.» 1 Corinthians 10:13
The God of the Bible is magnificent. Personal. The Creator. The Redeemer. The Judge of evil. The Friend of all that is good.

Jesus' own words are merely the "peak" of the wonderful biblical truths. From the first page to the last, the Bible is a magnificent divine revelation to humanity. Anyone sincerely searching for meaning and purpose in life will surely find it in the Bible. "For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds" (Matthew 7:8)
It's a tragedy, really, that Christian churches have established a "monopoly" on Christianity. Now, when we look at the institutions and the believers they have shaped, we find ourselves recoiling from the Bible, from Christianity, and from the God of the Bible. All because they have distorted clear and beautiful biblical truths. In doing so, they misrepresent God. Much like Satan does.

I'm glad we can exchange thoughts so calmly and openly. And I truly hope that your trust in the Biblical God grows—not based on my little text here, but through your own personal study of the Bible as the magnificent Word of God. Warm regards

The answer to every question, the Truth, and the realization of God resides within ourselves.

What’s most interesting is that Jesus never actually spoke with God!
In fact, Jesus went into the desert to meditate for forty days, where he confronted the devil—his own personal demon—having to endure every temptation to reach an understanding of God. Interestingly, Buddha did the exact same thing! Toward the end of his meditation that led him to Nirvana, he also had to face the temptations of a demon.

Elizabeth Lewis11 said:Nastavak:

Your consciousness and mine—they aren't exactly cut from the same cloth. You see, your perception is anchored to a specific set of "truths" you’ve gathered from the books on your shelf—books that seem to validate themselves through certain religious practices and those intense, emotional surges you hit during meditation. Essentially, you’ve placed your faith in what you feel while you're sitting there in silence. In short, you believe. I suppose I should start by being honest with myself—though that’s always been a bit of a struggle, hasn't it? It’s easy to get lost in the noise of everything else, drifting through the day without really checking in on what’s actually happening under the surface. I tend to wander off on these long, winding paths—much like my own thoughts, which rarely follow a straight line—and I often forget that the most important work happens internally. It's a slow process, a measured one, and frankly, a bit exhausting at times. But I'm trying. I'm trying to be more intentional, even if my attempts at being "composed" usually end up feeling a little bit ridiculous..
I believe in God—period. It doesn’t matter that I don't feel anything particularly special, nor do I go around chasing some sort of profound spiritual epiphany or "peak experience." My faith isn't rooted in myself—not in my fleeting emotional highs, nor in whatever transient mental states I might be cycling through at any given moment. If God says something, I do it. Plain and simple. Because I trust Him. I’m not out here hunting for internal validation or looking for some sign within my own "consciousness levels" to tell me I'm doing it right. Faith isn't an emotional rollercoaster; it's just following what He said.

My own consciousness stands as a witness to the Bible being the absolute truth. It’s my conviction that Jesus is truly "the way, the truth, and the life." Honestly, I can only attribute this clarity to the work of the Holy Spirit—because if it weren't for Him, I’d just be stuck believing in "myself"—relying on my own misguided opinions about God, piety, or what a Christian life ought to look like. I'd be lost in the whims of my own emotions or those fleeting, pious feelings one gets during a church service or similar rituals.

Regarding what shadownomad4 claimed about being able to translate various languages back into his native tongue—well, frankly, that just doesn't square with the Bible. In his particular Christian community, they treat the "gift of tongues" as this singular, extraordinary gift from God, even though if you actually look at Scripture, it’s listed as just one among many different gifts. To them, it serves as their ultimate "proof" that God is present among them. They fall into these trances during worship services, and once they feel some force taking hold—which they insist is the Holy Spirit—they start shouting, jumping around, making all sorts of noise, and speaking in unknown tongues. But in my view, that isn't the work of the Holy Spirit. After all, there's no practical value to it.
"The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets, because God isn't a God of chaos—He's a God of order." So, look—when the Holy Spirit truly takes hold of a person, it’s not some frantic, chaotic whirlwind that just tosses them around in a fit of mindless shouting or manic frenzy. That's not how it works. Instead, the Holy Spirit actually submits to the prophet. He doesn't overpower them; rather, He guides them—providing that specific inspiration needed to grasp or "see" a particular divine revelation or word from God.
When you look at what actually happened during Pentecost in Acts chapter 2, people tend to get it all twisted. They jump straight to the idea of speaking "angelic" tongues—which, let’s be honest, sounds much more poetic than the reality—but that isn't what the text is actually describing. It wasn't some mystical, celestial dialect; it was about speaking foreign languages. Plain and simple. You had these uneducated fishermen and rural folks suddenly gifted by the Holy Spirit with the ability to speak the native tongues of the surrounding nations. Why? Because there was a practical purpose behind it. It wasn't just for show; they were given this specific gift so they could effectively deliver the Good News about Jesus Christ to everyone listening. It was a functional, purposeful gift from the Holy Spirit, designed to bridge a communication gap, not just to sound impressive.

To "believe in God" basically just means you accept that He exists—that He’s the Creator, the one who penned the Bible, and all that. It’s essentially believing a few things *about* God. Honestly, if we're being real, it's a pretty shallow way to look at it—just sitting there on this superficial, "informational" level.
To "believe in God" means trusting Him as your Father, as the Creator, and as a Friend. When He issues a command—well, you follow it simply because you trust His heart. When you dig into the Bible, you aren't just reading old ink; you're searching for the good He intends to teach you—the specific kind of character He wants to forge within you. You read that God is love, yet also justice. And honestly, it’s the only way it makes sense. Through love, God sustains life; He provides His children with everything necessary for happiness and success. But at the same time, He shields them from the evil that exists in this world—evil that persists solely because of human choice. It makes you love Him even more, knowing He doesn't just hand out life, family, and joy, but that He is watching over you every single moment to ensure evil doesn't overtake you. And in those inevitable moments where He allows evil to touch you—you see it as a "test" of your loyalty to Him. You end up loving Him even more, because He is guiding you through life with such steady, gentle hands. Why can you trust Him unconditionally, even when He allows us to be tested by darkness? Because: "«No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.» 1 Corinthians 10:13
The God of the Bible is magnificent. Personal. The Creator. The Redeemer. The Judge of evil. The Friend of all that is good.

Jesus' own words are merely the "peak" of the wonderful biblical truths. From the first page to the last, the Bible is a magnificent divine revelation to humanity. Anyone sincerely searching for meaning and purpose in life will surely find it in the Bible. "For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds" (Matthew 7:8)
It's a tragedy, really, that Christian churches have established a "monopoly" on Christianity. Now, when we look at the institutions and the believers they have shaped, we find ourselves recoiling from the Bible, from Christianity, and from the God of the Bible. All because they have distorted clear and beautiful biblical truths. In doing so, they misrepresent God. Much like Satan does.

I'm glad we can exchange thoughts so calmly and openly. And I truly hope that your trust in the Biblical God grows—not based on my little text here, but through your own personal study of the Bible as the magnificent Word of God. Warm regards

So, are you saying you trust your own feelings, which you label as God, even while you claim to ignore all your actual feelings?
It's interesting, because meditation is meant to quiet the mind so we can overcome and silence the Ego, allowing us to hear or see the true Truth.
To me, that sounds exactly like what you claim to be doing...

Elizabeth Lewis11 said:Nastavak:

Your consciousness and mine—they aren't exactly cut from the same cloth. You see, your perception is anchored to a specific set of "truths" you’ve gathered from the books on your shelf—books that seem to validate themselves through certain religious practices and those intense, emotional surges you hit during meditation. Essentially, you’ve placed your faith in what you feel while you're sitting there in silence. In short, you believe. I suppose I should start by being honest with myself—though that’s always been a bit of a struggle, hasn't it? It’s easy to get lost in the noise of everything else, drifting through the day without really checking in on what’s actually happening under the surface. I tend to wander off on these long, winding paths—much like my own thoughts, which rarely follow a straight line—and I often forget that the most important work happens internally. It's a slow process, a measured one, and frankly, a bit exhausting at times. But I'm trying. I'm trying to be more intentional, even if my attempts at being "composed" usually end up feeling a little bit ridiculous..
I believe in God—period. It doesn’t matter that I don't feel anything particularly special, nor do I go around chasing some sort of profound spiritual epiphany or "peak experience." My faith isn't rooted in myself—not in my fleeting emotional highs, nor in whatever transient mental states I might be cycling through at any given moment. If God says something, I do it. Plain and simple. Because I trust Him. I’m not out here hunting for internal validation or looking for some sign within my own "consciousness levels" to tell me I'm doing it right. Faith isn't an emotional rollercoaster; it's just following what He said.

My own consciousness stands as a witness to the Bible being the absolute truth. It’s my conviction that Jesus is truly "the way, the truth, and the life." Honestly, I can only attribute this clarity to the work of the Holy Spirit—because if it weren't for Him, I’d just be stuck believing in "myself"—relying on my own misguided opinions about God, piety, or what a Christian life ought to look like. I'd be lost in the whims of my own emotions or those fleeting, pious feelings one gets during a church service or similar rituals.

Regarding what shadownomad4 claimed about being able to translate various languages back into his native tongue—well, frankly, that just doesn't square with the Bible. In his particular Christian community, they treat the "gift of tongues" as this singular, extraordinary gift from God, even though if you actually look at Scripture, it’s listed as just one among many different gifts. To them, it serves as their ultimate "proof" that God is present among them. They fall into these trances during worship services, and once they feel some force taking hold—which they insist is the Holy Spirit—they start shouting, jumping around, making all sorts of noise, and speaking in unknown tongues. But in my view, that isn't the work of the Holy Spirit. After all, there's no practical value to it.
"The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets, because God isn't a God of chaos—He's a God of order." So, look—when the Holy Spirit truly takes hold of a person, it’s not some frantic, chaotic whirlwind that just tosses them around in a fit of mindless shouting or manic frenzy. That's not how it works. Instead, the Holy Spirit actually submits to the prophet. He doesn't overpower them; rather, He guides them—providing that specific inspiration needed to grasp or "see" a particular divine revelation or word from God.
When you look at what actually happened during Pentecost in Acts chapter 2, people tend to get it all twisted. They jump straight to the idea of speaking "angelic" tongues—which, let’s be honest, sounds much more poetic than the reality—but that isn't what the text is actually describing. It wasn't some mystical, celestial dialect; it was about speaking foreign languages. Plain and simple. You had these uneducated fishermen and rural folks suddenly gifted by the Holy Spirit with the ability to speak the native tongues of the surrounding nations. Why? Because there was a practical purpose behind it. It wasn't just for show; they were given this specific gift so they could effectively deliver the Good News about Jesus Christ to everyone listening. It was a functional, purposeful gift from the Holy Spirit, designed to bridge a communication gap, not just to sound impressive.

To "believe in God" basically just means you accept that He exists—that He’s the Creator, the one who penned the Bible, and all that. It’s essentially believing a few things *about* God. Honestly, if we're being real, it's a pretty shallow way to look at it—just sitting there on this superficial, "informational" level.
To "believe in God" means trusting Him as your Father, as the Creator, and as a Friend. When He issues a command—well, you follow it simply because you trust His heart. When you dig into the Bible, you aren't just reading old ink; you're searching for the good He intends to teach you—the specific kind of character He wants to forge within you. You read that God is love, yet also justice. And honestly, it’s the only way it makes sense. Through love, God sustains life; He provides His children with everything necessary for happiness and success. But at the same time, He shields them from the evil that exists in this world—evil that persists solely because of human choice. It makes you love Him even more, knowing He doesn't just hand out life, family, and joy, but that He is watching over you every single moment to ensure evil doesn't overtake you. And in those inevitable moments where He allows evil to touch you—you see it as a "test" of your loyalty to Him. You end up loving Him even more, because He is guiding you through life with such steady, gentle hands. Why can you trust Him unconditionally, even when He allows us to be tested by darkness? Because: "«No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.» 1 Corinthians 10:13
The God of the Bible is magnificent. Personal. The Creator. The Redeemer. The Judge of evil. The Friend of all that is good.

Jesus' own words are merely the "peak" of the wonderful biblical truths. From the first page to the last, the Bible is a magnificent divine revelation to humanity. Anyone sincerely searching for meaning and purpose in life will surely find it in the Bible. "For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds" (Matthew 7:8)
It's a tragedy, really, that Christian churches have established a "monopoly" on Christianity. Now, when we look at the institutions and the believers they have shaped, we find ourselves recoiling from the Bible, from Christianity, and from the God of the Bible. All because they have distorted clear and beautiful biblical truths. In doing so, they misrepresent God. Much like Satan does.

I'm glad we can exchange thoughts so calmly and openly. And I truly hope that your trust in the Biblical God grows—not based on my little text here, but through your own personal study of the Bible as the magnificent Word of God. Warm regards

And as it turns out, the only way to tell if God is actually speaking to you or if you’re just listening to your own internal monologue is by looking at the fruits of that conviction.

Elizabeth Lewis11 said:Nastavak:

Your consciousness and mine—they aren't exactly cut from the same cloth. You see, your perception is anchored to a specific set of "truths" you’ve gathered from the books on your shelf—books that seem to validate themselves through certain religious practices and those intense, emotional surges you hit during meditation. Essentially, you’ve placed your faith in what you feel while you're sitting there in silence. In short, you believe. I suppose I should start by being honest with myself—though that’s always been a bit of a struggle, hasn't it? It’s easy to get lost in the noise of everything else, drifting through the day without really checking in on what’s actually happening under the surface. I tend to wander off on these long, winding paths—much like my own thoughts, which rarely follow a straight line—and I often forget that the most important work happens internally. It's a slow process, a measured one, and frankly, a bit exhausting at times. But I'm trying. I'm trying to be more intentional, even if my attempts at being "composed" usually end up feeling a little bit ridiculous..
I believe in God—period. It doesn’t matter that I don't feel anything particularly special, nor do I go around chasing some sort of profound spiritual epiphany or "peak experience." My faith isn't rooted in myself—not in my fleeting emotional highs, nor in whatever transient mental states I might be cycling through at any given moment. If God says something, I do it. Plain and simple. Because I trust Him. I’m not out here hunting for internal validation or looking for some sign within my own "consciousness levels" to tell me I'm doing it right. Faith isn't an emotional rollercoaster; it's just following what He said.

My own consciousness stands as a witness to the Bible being the absolute truth. It’s my conviction that Jesus is truly "the way, the truth, and the life." Honestly, I can only attribute this clarity to the work of the Holy Spirit—because if it weren't for Him, I’d just be stuck believing in "myself"—relying on my own misguided opinions about God, piety, or what a Christian life ought to look like. I'd be lost in the whims of my own emotions or those fleeting, pious feelings one gets during a church service or similar rituals.

Regarding what shadownomad4 claimed about being able to translate various languages back into his native tongue—well, frankly, that just doesn't square with the Bible. In his particular Christian community, they treat the "gift of tongues" as this singular, extraordinary gift from God, even though if you actually look at Scripture, it’s listed as just one among many different gifts. To them, it serves as their ultimate "proof" that God is present among them. They fall into these trances during worship services, and once they feel some force taking hold—which they insist is the Holy Spirit—they start shouting, jumping around, making all sorts of noise, and speaking in unknown tongues. But in my view, that isn't the work of the Holy Spirit. After all, there's no practical value to it.
"The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets, because God isn't a God of chaos—He's a God of order." So, look—when the Holy Spirit truly takes hold of a person, it’s not some frantic, chaotic whirlwind that just tosses them around in a fit of mindless shouting or manic frenzy. That's not how it works. Instead, the Holy Spirit actually submits to the prophet. He doesn't overpower them; rather, He guides them—providing that specific inspiration needed to grasp or "see" a particular divine revelation or word from God.
When you look at what actually happened during Pentecost in Acts chapter 2, people tend to get it all twisted. They jump straight to the idea of speaking "angelic" tongues—which, let’s be honest, sounds much more poetic than the reality—but that isn't what the text is actually describing. It wasn't some mystical, celestial dialect; it was about speaking foreign languages. Plain and simple. You had these uneducated fishermen and rural folks suddenly gifted by the Holy Spirit with the ability to speak the native tongues of the surrounding nations. Why? Because there was a practical purpose behind it. It wasn't just for show; they were given this specific gift so they could effectively deliver the Good News about Jesus Christ to everyone listening. It was a functional, purposeful gift from the Holy Spirit, designed to bridge a communication gap, not just to sound impressive.

To "believe in God" basically just means you accept that He exists—that He’s the Creator, the one who penned the Bible, and all that. It’s essentially believing a few things *about* God. Honestly, if we're being real, it's a pretty shallow way to look at it—just sitting there on this superficial, "informational" level.
To "believe in God" means trusting Him as your Father, as the Creator, and as a Friend. When He issues a command—well, you follow it simply because you trust His heart. When you dig into the Bible, you aren't just reading old ink; you're searching for the good He intends to teach you—the specific kind of character He wants to forge within you. You read that God is love, yet also justice. And honestly, it’s the only way it makes sense. Through love, God sustains life; He provides His children with everything necessary for happiness and success. But at the same time, He shields them from the evil that exists in this world—evil that persists solely because of human choice. It makes you love Him even more, knowing He doesn't just hand out life, family, and joy, but that He is watching over you every single moment to ensure evil doesn't overtake you. And in those inevitable moments where He allows evil to touch you—you see it as a "test" of your loyalty to Him. You end up loving Him even more, because He is guiding you through life with such steady, gentle hands. Why can you trust Him unconditionally, even when He allows us to be tested by darkness? Because: "«No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.» 1 Corinthians 10:13
The God of the Bible is magnificent. Personal. The Creator. The Redeemer. The Judge of evil. The Friend of all that is good.

Jesus' own words are merely the "peak" of the wonderful biblical truths. From the first page to the last, the Bible is a magnificent divine revelation to humanity. Anyone sincerely searching for meaning and purpose in life will surely find it in the Bible. "For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds" (Matthew 7:8)
It's a tragedy, really, that Christian churches have established a "monopoly" on Christianity. Now, when we look at the institutions and the believers they have shaped, we find ourselves recoiling from the Bible, from Christianity, and from the God of the Bible. All because they have distorted clear and beautiful biblical truths. In doing so, they misrepresent God. Much like Satan does.

I'm glad we can exchange thoughts so calmly and openly. And I truly hope that your trust in the Biblical God grows—not based on my little text here, but through your own personal study of the Bible as the magnificent Word of God. Warm regards

The most frustrating part of this debate is that I keep seeing glimpses of my own perspective in what you say, with the sole exception being your rigid insistence that such realization can only come through the Bible. My contention is that we can reach that same realization through other teachings and meditative practices...
because what I found quite easily—certainly more easily than trying to parse it all from the Bible—through other disciplines is that love is the only human action that is an end in itself. Everything else we do is instrumental; we eat to live, we perform bodily functions to stay healthy, and so on. But when we love, we love for the sake of creating more love.
This leads to the understanding that love is the highest of all human purposes, a self-generating energy, the only part of God we can truly feel.
Living within, creating, or giving love naturally gravitates toward order and balance. You cannot destroy something out of true love; because if you truly understand how to love, you will recognize even the things that need to be let go, and you won't find it in you to destroy them. So, as I was saying, love inherently seeks balance... and that, in turn, pulls in all sorts of positive qualities, like morality...

And you see, none of this was handed to me by the Bible. Nor was it the fault of my "teachers," since I never really listened to people or religious instructors; I listened to their teachings instead. While I find the teachings of Jesus to be good, they feel insufficient to me because they leave too much empty space.