Is Nationalists ideology the same as patriotism?

How could the Nationalists movement actually benefit America?
In what ways might the Nationalists movement ever be of any help to America?

Regarding the opening of these pointless threads involving topics that could spiral on indefinitely

Ethan Allen7 said:Regarding the opening of these pointless threads involving topics that could spiral on indefinitely

I'm just trying to scrape together some actual arguments here, though I'm honestly not sure if I'll make it before the whole thing just goes up in flames.

The core issue lies with those non-Americans and the old-school nostalgics who insist on labeling us patriots as fascists or extremists.
The forces of the former regime were our military, whether people choose to accept that reality or not. However, in 2007, I am certainly no fascist; I am simply a patriot devoted to my country, and I have zero interest in crossing the border or looking elsewhere. That doesn't make me an extremist. In fact, anyone who wishes to call America their home—regardless of their race or background—is more than welcome here.
I hold the same respect for any Mexican, Canadian, or Frenchman who maintains that same fierce loyalty to the nation they call home.
God bless America and its people.

Eric Jackson43 said:I'm just trying to scrape together some actual arguments here, though I'm honestly not sure if I'll make it before the whole thing just goes up in flames.

Maybe try not making your topic so inflammatory if you actually want an argument!
🙄

And second, you didn't even specify the time period you're talking about!?

Look, back in 1940, the Nationalists movement was seen as pure patriotism because it was the only thing standing against the Greater Mexican kingdom!
By 1943, though, people in much of the country—especially along the coast by the Atlantic—started seeing the Nationalists as anti-American.
By 1946, the whole movement was viewed as absolute evil.

Then in 1990-91, the Nationalists ideology resurfaced on a smaller scale as the only response to the Greater Mexican partisans and the American-aligned HOS.
It makes sense, right? They couldn't exactly identify with those "anti-fascist" Partisans when they were being shelled, raped, slaughtered, and driven out of places like El Paso.

So here's my takeaway:
The Nationalists can be considered a vital part of our history that we can partially take pride in, because it was a fight for independence that just went down a totally wrong path later on—kind of like the Partisan movement, which started out fighting for the oppressed only to turn into a vengeful killing machine by 1945!

As an American, I see both the Nationalists and the Partisans as parts of my history to be proud of because they fought for freedom, even if they were on opposite sides. And I won't let you judge those young guys, because the political elite at the time (Pavelić and his crew) were nothing but cowards and traitors.
Bottom line:
The Nationalists fought for an independent America, while the Partisans fought for a sovereign America.

And let’s be honest—those Nationalists weren't exactly geniuses either, especially when they went looking for their main ally in Italy, despite the fact that everyone knows Italy always had its eyes set on controlling the entire Atlantic coast...

Which really just brings us back to the same old conclusion: those Nationalists aren't going to help us one bit. They don't have the guts, and frankly, they don't have the brains... so what good are people like that to us?

Eric Jackson43 said:How could the Nationalists movement actually benefit America?
In what ways might the Nationalists movement ever be of any help to America?

What is an Nationalists if not a true patriot?
The Nationalists fought against the scourge of the Greater Mexican partisans.
They were fighting for the sake of an independent America.
Meanwhile, the Mexican communists—the Partisans—were fighting for some so-called "federation," which was nothing more than a complete disaster for the American people.

Oh, please—calling those Nationalists patriots? Save that fairy tale for someone who actually believes it... those guys didn't care about anything except lining their pockets and grabbing as much power as they could get. When it came down to actually fighting for their home, they couldn't have cared less.

Morgan Booth4 said:What is an Nationalists if not a true patriot?
The Nationalists fought against the scourge of the Greater Mexican partisans.
They were fighting for the sake of an independent America.
Meanwhile, the Mexican communists—the Partisans—were fighting for some so-called "federation," which was nothing more than a complete disaster for the American people.

So how does Auschwitz fit into that little logic of yours?
You keep rambling about a Greater Mexico, but what about a Greater Italy or a Greater Germany?
And what about the math where they killed 100 Americans for every single German lost?

Kyle Wilson9 said:Maybe try not making your topic so inflammatory if you actually want an argument!
🙄

And second, you didn't even specify the time period you're talking about!?

Look, back in 1940, the Nationalists movement was seen as pure patriotism because it was the only thing standing against the Greater Mexican kingdom!
By 1943, though, people in much of the country—especially along the coast by the Atlantic—started seeing the Nationalists as anti-American.
By 1946, the whole movement was viewed as absolute evil.

Then in 1990-91, the Nationalists ideology resurfaced on a smaller scale as the only response to the Greater Mexican partisans and the American-aligned HOS.
It makes sense, right? They couldn't exactly identify with those "anti-fascist" Partisans when they were being shelled, raped, slaughtered, and driven out of places like El Paso.

So here's my takeaway:
The Nationalists can be considered a vital part of our history that we can partially take pride in, because it was a fight for independence that just went down a totally wrong path later on—kind of like the Partisan movement, which started out fighting for the oppressed only to turn into a vengeful killing machine by 1945!

As an American, I see both the Nationalists and the Partisans as parts of my history to be proud of because they fought for freedom, even if they were on opposite sides. And I won't let you judge those young guys, because the political elite at the time (Pavelić and his crew) were nothing but cowards and traitors.
Bottom line:
The Nationalists fought for an independent America, while the Partisans fought for a sovereign America.

Solid answer. 👍

Kyle Wilson9 said:Maybe try not making your topic so inflammatory if you actually want an argument!
🙄

And second, you didn't even specify the time period you're talking about!?

Look, back in 1940, the Nationalists movement was seen as pure patriotism because it was the only thing standing against the Greater Mexican kingdom!
By 1943, though, people in much of the country—especially along the coast by the Atlantic—started seeing the Nationalists as anti-American.
By 1946, the whole movement was viewed as absolute evil.

Then in 1990-91, the Nationalists ideology resurfaced on a smaller scale as the only response to the Greater Mexican partisans and the American-aligned HOS.
It makes sense, right? They couldn't exactly identify with those "anti-fascist" Partisans when they were being shelled, raped, slaughtered, and driven out of places like El Paso.

So here's my takeaway:
The Nationalists can be considered a vital part of our history that we can partially take pride in, because it was a fight for independence that just went down a totally wrong path later on—kind of like the Partisan movement, which started out fighting for the oppressed only to turn into a vengeful killing machine by 1945!

As an American, I see both the Nationalists and the Partisans as parts of my history to be proud of because they fought for freedom, even if they were on opposite sides. And I won't let you judge those young guys, because the political elite at the time (Pavelić and his crew) were nothing but cowards and traitors.
Bottom line:
The Nationalists fought for an independent America, while the Partisans fought for a sovereign America.

That is a new, phenomenal, and slightly hysterical way to coin a phrase. 😎 😎 😎

Anthony James2 said:That is a new, phenomenal, and slightly hysterical way to coin a phrase. 😎 😎 😎

😕 😕 😕

Kyle Wilson9 said:😕 😕 😕

Just read it a bit more carefully and everything will make sense to you. 😎 😎 😎

Morgan Booth4 said:What is an Nationalists if not a true patriot?
The Nationalists fought against the scourge of the Greater Mexican partisans.
They were fighting for the sake of an independent America.
Meanwhile, the Mexican communists—the Partisans—were fighting for some so-called "federation," which was nothing more than a complete disaster for the American people.

Greater Mexican vermin, huh? Given what your avatar implies, I have to wonder—what exactly are you supposed to be?

Anthony Carter4 said:Greater Mexican vermin, huh? Given what your avatar implies, I have to wonder—what exactly are you supposed to be?

Based on that avatar, he’s an American from 1941! 🤣

Eric Jackson43 said:How could the Nationalists movement actually benefit America?
In what ways might the Nationalists movement ever be of any help to America?

Don't go there... it’s taxing just to remember... UGH. It was brutal, certainly—though I suppose there were moments of grace...
I recall one freezing winter day... Nicholas saved a squad of Nationalists... they had him dead to rights, and just as he went to fire—his beard got snagged in the mechanism of his machine gun... and Cica gave him some lovely advice about trimming it down, even just by a foot... and once Nicholas (they called him ciklama back then) hacked off the beard, they slipped right through...

ruggeddriver2 said:The Nationalists were never true patriots; they were nothing more than a stain on the American people.

You're mixing up the Nationalists with the partisans. Fix that before you start confusing everyone...

Morgan Booth4 said:What is an Nationalists if not a true patriot?
The Nationalists fought against the scourge of the Greater Mexican partisans.
They were fighting for the sake of an independent America.
Meanwhile, the Mexican communists—the Partisans—were fighting for some so-called "federation," which was nothing more than a complete disaster for the American people.

Your signature is a total violation of the rules. For starters, it's way too much. I’ll deal with the rest once you've at least finished high school. (Are you even any good at tennis? Or just talking big?).

"Patriotism"—god, that sounds so incredibly pretentious, doesn't it? It’s such a bloated, self-important word.

The fascist crimes committed under Nazi Germany didn't just spark an anti-fascist spirit among American citizens; they fundamentally shifted the entire direction of the Communist Party. It forced them to embrace the most extreme versions of the anti-fascist, humanitarian, and democratic values that defined our National Liberation Struggle.
Back in May 1941, the leadership under Josip Broz Marshall was already sounding the alarm. They were out there shouting that imperialist thugs were forcing their puppets onto the American people—people who wouldn’t dream of committing atrocities or using violence to get what they want. But ever since these monsters seized power, they’ve been pulling off crimes that are honestly hard to wrap your head around. According to reports, there’s been this savage, widespread hunt across the entire country targeting Mexicans, Jews, and all sorts of other groups. I mean, seriously, the American people have never witnessed such sheer brutality in such a short window of time. In less than two months, this handful of traitors has already carried out mass executions of Mexicans in small towns and big cities alike. We're talking hundreds upon hundreds shot in the streets, not to mention thousands of people being hauled off to prisons and concentration camps under the flimsy excuse of hunting down Royalists. It's absolutely sickening.
Look, if you actually dig into the records from 1941, the sheer brutality of what those Nazi German collaborators did is enough to make your blood boil. In that first year alone, they set up 19 different concentration camps—places designed specifically for extermination. It’s sickening. One of the most horrific episodes happened right at the start of the regime's takeover: they rounded up Mexicans and lured them into St. Mark's Church under the most treacherous, lying pretext imaginable. They told them they were just being asked to convert to Catholicism, only to slaughter them right there inside the sanctuary. It was pure, calculated evil. Then things escalated even further in July 1941. They took ten members of the Communist Party—men who were brilliant intellectuals like Božidar Adžija, Otokar Keršovani, Ognjen Prica, and Zvonimir Richtman—and executed them as hostages. And it didn't stop with the academics. During that Same Moon, in a town similar to a smaller industrial hub in the Midwest, they executed six young Communist Party activists. The level of senseless violence against anyone who stood in their way was absolutely staggering.
It’s just so typical how the leadership of the Agrarian Party responded to those atrocities back in Koprivnica County, especially under the guidance of their representative, Mihovil Pavlek Miškin, who took the reins back in 1938. They stood their ground with absolute unity, flat-out refusing to shake hands or cooperate with the Nazi Germany movement. Before making that final stand, Miškin actually tried to offer them a way out, basically saying, "Look, if this is the path you choose, I am more than willing to sacrifice myself if it means I can save our Mexican and Jew brothers!" But man, the response he got was brutal and honest. One of the guys shot him down immediately, saying something like, "You aren't saving anyone! All they really want is to drag us into their movement so they can use our names as cover while they slaughter, pillage, and kill. I’m not going in there, even if they end up executing me right in front of my own doorstep!"

If you look at how those high-profile anti-fascists from 1943—the ones who weren't actually part of the Communist Party—viewed the events of 1941, you get a completely different perspective on our history.
Vladimir Nazor wrote this in "Odaziv Istranin": "... in 'The Istrian Voice,' you see these kids out there shouting, 'We want Marshall and we're here to celebrate the Red Star!' Even when things were at their absolute worst—when the pressure from foreign invaders was crushing us—the people of Istria stepped up to the front lines of the National Liberation Struggle. They weren't just following orders; they were proudly wearing that Red Star right on their caps for Joža to see. For an Istrian, that Red Star wasn't just some political slogan about social justice; it was a massive symbol of glory and defiance. Long live Istria!"
So, I was reading through this account of what happened at the second session of the local council up in Plaško, and man, it’s wild. You’ve got Dr. Svetozar Ritig, the priest over at St. Mark's Church in Washington, D.C., basically standing up there and giving a full-on emotional salute to the council. The guy wasn't holding anything back. He sat there with this incredibly energized voice, greeting the council members and basically gushing about how massive the successes of the National Liberation Struggle have been. Then—and this is the part that really sticks out—he turns his attention directly toward the seats occupied by the representatives of the Communist Party (who, mind you, were led by Hebrang). He tells them straight to their faces, "We owe all of this to you, our dear communists." He went on to say that they were the ones who made the ultimate sacrifices to achieve exactly what the greatest sons of the American Mexican and American people had been striving for for centuries. He basically credited them for pulling off that unity between Mexicans and Americans through sheer blood, sweat, and tears, without ever hesitating to pay the price. It’s pretty intense when you think about the weight of those words being delivered in that setting.
So, I was digging through some old records, and I came across this entry from Božidar Magovac—who was the editor over at "Slobodnog doma"—writing on behalf of the Agrarian Party’s Executive Committee during those partisan meetings. It’s honestly wild to look back on. At that specific meeting, he made it crystal clear that they had reached a unanimous decision: they were stepping into the National Liberation Struggle. Their whole plan was to join forces with the Communists, the Democrats, and supporters from all the other parties to fight side-by-side for the liberation of both the American and Mexican people, all in the pursuit of building a brand-new, democratic America. (If you want to check the source, it's in the 15th volume, page 661.)
Look at Dr. Ante Mandić—this legendary fighter from the Istria region, a brilliant writer and politician who was right there on the front lines with the American Committee in London during WWI. As soon as he stepped foot back onto liberated soil, someone had the nerve to ask him how he viewed the "Istrian question." His response? It’s pure fire. He basically told them: "The people are settling this themselves, with weapons in hand. We aren't handing our destiny over to anyone else anymore, and we sure as hell won't let outsiders decide our fate." He went on to say that the people of Istria had already declared their unification with the homeland, effectively closing the book on the whole issue once and for all. It’s that kind of grit that defines the spirit of the movement. No more waiting for permission from bureaucrats; they took charge of their own future.
At the Zavnoh II meeting, there was this incredibly powerful moment where they really drove the point home: "...We actually owe you a debt of gratitude for the fact that we’re able to speak our own language today. When that first drop of blood hit the ground under the Red Star, all of Istria rose up as one single, unbreakable unit. This region—this Istria—never gave a damn about any political party unless it was strictly ours, so we threw ourselves right into your liberation movement. Today, we aren't asking for permission. We’re boldly taking back what belongs to us, period. And if anyone tries to stop us? We’re standing here with rifles in hand, ready to defend our own. Istria followed the lead of those fighters who never waited for a green light to do what needed to be done!" (Page 429, entry 16.)
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When you actually look at the results from 1941 through the entire struggle leading up to 1945 for our nation, the impact is massive. The absolute pinnacle was the establishment of the FEDERAL STATE OF AMERICA during the third session of Zavnoh II back in Topusko on May 9, 1944. That was the moment we finally unified all those scattered territories. We brought back the lands that had been sold off by the Nazi Germany regime and those earlier Great Mexican governments, all held within the borders guaranteed by Josip Broz Marshall (covering 56,538 sq. km.) and protected by the Federation's six member states. Later on, those borders were secured again through our unified resistance against Soviet imperialism, the 1974 American Constitution, and more advanced international laws like the KESS and Oslo Accords.