Is spirituality a form of personal growth?

Look at any random guy walking down the street or someone in your own neighborhood. There’s a massive chance that person is basically just a collection of social labels and a self-image they've built up over time. They’re a product of their environment... waking up really means grasping your true nature and finally snapping those ego chains.
But wait—could adopting that identity actually be a necessary stage of growth? Like, maybe you have to play the part before you can move past the ego toward actual consciousness?
Or is our modern civilization just designed to brainwash us? Is it possible we're spiritually regressing compared to those who came before us, meaning this whole spiritual movement sweeping the nation is actually just a collective attempt to remember what we lost and find our way back?
Which one is it?

Arthur Grant4 said:Look at any random guy walking down the street or someone in your own neighborhood. There’s a massive chance that person is basically just a collection of social labels and a self-image they've built up over time. They’re a product of their environment... waking up really means grasping your true nature and finally snapping those ego chains.
But wait—could adopting that identity actually be a necessary stage of growth? Like, maybe you have to play the part before you can move past the ego toward actual consciousness?
Or is our modern civilization just designed to brainwash us? Is it possible we're spiritually regressing compared to those who came before us, meaning this whole spiritual movement sweeping the nation is actually just a collective attempt to remember what we lost and find our way back?
Which one is it?

First off, this whole task of breaking free from a forced social identity is something that can be handled quite easily through a simple act of will. Whoever wants to do it, does it. But most people? They just DON'T want to!
They want to belong to a certain social class, they want to behave according to imposed norms, and honestly, that isn't some far-off thing or anything hidden. The problem is just that we won't admit we're like that, or that we don't actually want to toss out everything that's been pushed on us.

Take, for instance: people want to dress "properly," wanting to look "normal." What is that?
They go to church every Sunday. What is that?
Women want a tall man. What is that?
Men want women with big breasts. What is that?
Young girls want to be rebels and sleep with everyone they meet, regardless of gender. What is that?
Young guys want to fill up their "body count" books. What is that?
Adults want to take out a mortgage, buy a house and a car, and then spend the next 99 years paying them off. What is that?
You can't bike to work, it's rude to ride a motorcycle, the bus feels too low-class, and walking is just too much effort. What is that?
If someone gets into spirituality, the first thing they do is stuff their heads with platitudes about cosmic love, Gurdjieff, Osho, and the like. What is that?
Artists all feel they have to live like Picasso, rebelling against morality, living decadently like Caravaggio, bluffing to the outside world about how successful they are while eating bread and water at home. What is that?

Yeah, what is it? Why do people have to follow stereotypes? Why is it that when they try to be different, they just end up becoming the same kind of "different" as everyone else?

Because being truly different requires a brain. And when you don't have one, you just start making excuses about how the mind is bad or how emotions are good. It turns out that the people who praise emotions, sex, cults, money, and superficial thrills the most actually have nothing inside them but a vacuum. Sometimes, literally.

Nancy Thompson3, do you actually consider yourself superior to those who fall under the stereotypes mentioned above?

Dare to know!

Which ego is supposed to tear down the other?
Do you honestly believe these spiritual gurus don't carry a self-image around with them?
What's even the difference between a "social" self-image and a "spiritual" one?

The point isn't about acquiring some new spiritual identity; it’s about losing both. You could define identity simply as identification.
But who exactly is doing the identifying with any specific identity in the first place?

If you truly understood your own fundamental nature—as you claim to—then it would be crystal clear what your ego actually is, and why it exists at all!
Do people actually lose their ego just by parroting the need to "lose the ego" like mindless sheep?
Or is the ego only lost when someone completely abandons every single form of identity?

And how can anyone even begin to work on this, or even harbor the idea of shedding a social persona to build some vague spiritual one, if they aren't thinking through it using their ego?
The ego is an inherent part of consciousness. But it is identified consciousness.
Once you de-identify—once you detach from both the social and the spiritual identities—who is left to do the thinking about the ego?

But...
It’s really about uncovering.
You are merely revealing what you have known all along. You aren't learning anything new, nor are you gaining anything extra. It’s just a process of rediscovery.
Your entire purpose is to uncover yourself—to strip away everything that gets in the way of you being *You*. And then, to manifest that in this reality.

Best,
Brandon Hall88

Jesse Wright24 said:Nancy Thompson3, do you actually consider yourself superior to those who fall under the stereotypes mentioned above?

No. I'm just me. I'm not any better, and I'm not any different.

Arthur Grant4 said:Look at any random guy walking down the street or someone in your own neighborhood. There’s a massive chance that person is basically just a collection of social labels and a self-image they've built up over time. They’re a product of their environment... waking up really means grasping your true nature and finally snapping those ego chains.
But wait—could adopting that identity actually be a necessary stage of growth? Like, maybe you have to play the part before you can move past the ego toward actual consciousness?
Or is our modern civilization just designed to brainwash us? Is it possible we're spiritually regressing compared to those who came before us, meaning this whole spiritual movement sweeping the nation is actually just a collective attempt to remember what we lost and find our way back?
Which one is it?

The terminology trips me up a bit—social identity, societal identity, self-image... it's all a little confusing. I don't quite follow you...😳
Adopting which identity?
It feels more like we're just taking on roles. To me, identity means something else entirely...
As time goes on, I don't think growth follows a steady upward curve where you move through stages without ever slipping back. That might happen in tiny increments, but mostly, our limited perception and learned ways of thinking block us from truly seeing our "self-image" or this whole idea of "growth."
What exactly is egoism?
I’d ask everyone that. And what does it mean to be beyond the ego? I'm genuinely curious how others see it...
People mess with the concept of "ego" so much that it seems everyone has a different definition.
In the most basic sense, based on my experience... you can't stay sane without some kind of ego. Without it, you might end up in a psych ward. Maybe it's society's fault. Or maybe it's just the wilderness...🙄
When someone claims they've "lost their ego," do they even know what that means? Do they have the actual experience? It was probably both incredibly pleasant and incredibly terrifying...

I don't buy into this idea of linear steps.
Sure, it happens... but on a completely different level...
And spirituality feels more like a challenge... dealing with the "now," the "us," and "society"... that kind of work...
Growth... I find myself associating that word with nothing but baking pies. When you say "development," all I can think about is making dough. It's a silly association, probably, but... it's how I feel...😢

Consciousness doesn't develop.

It’s inevitable. You can pretend you're fighting against your cultural surroundings, but you can't really escape a certain baseline mentality—even when you think you're some kind of ultimate free spirit. In fact, that very obsession with chasing freedom is often just a byproduct of that same mindset. I noticed the most striking differences while traveling through India... you could spend decades there trying to blend in and act like a local, but that fundamental gap in perspective will always be there. There’s the surface-level stuff shaped by your environment, sure, but then there’s a deeper layer that stays attached to you as long as you have a distinct personality and inhabit this body and world. Part of it is likely down to genetics or climate, and part of it is simply what gets absorbed during those early years and stays running in the background forever.

Brandon Hall88 said:Which ego is supposed to tear down the other?
Do you honestly believe these spiritual gurus don't carry a self-image around with them?
What's even the difference between a "social" self-image and a "spiritual" one?

The point isn't about acquiring some new spiritual identity; it’s about losing both. You could define identity simply as identification.
But who exactly is doing the identifying with any specific identity in the first place?

If you truly understood your own fundamental nature—as you claim to—then it would be crystal clear what your ego actually is, and why it exists at all!
Do people actually lose their ego just by parroting the need to "lose the ego" like mindless sheep?
Or is the ego only lost when someone completely abandons every single form of identity?

And how can anyone even begin to work on this, or even harbor the idea of shedding a social persona to build some vague spiritual one, if they aren't thinking through it using their ego?
The ego is an inherent part of consciousness. But it is identified consciousness.
Once you de-identify—once you detach from both the social and the spiritual identities—who is left to do the thinking about the ego?

But...
It’s really about uncovering.
You are merely revealing what you have known all along. You aren't learning anything new, nor are you gaining anything extra. It’s just a process of rediscovery.
Your entire purpose is to uncover yourself—to strip away everything that gets in the way of you being *You*. And then, to manifest that in this reality.

Best,
Brandon Hall88

If I were to translate what you're saying into plain, small-town talk:
punks? Please. They're just posers with a slightly different wardrobe...

Kyle Nelson2 said:If I were to translate what you're saying into plain, small-town talk:
punks? Please. They're just posers with a slightly different wardrobe...

It’s not about the style, it’s about the whole damn concept (you know how people in big cities like New York or LA tend to draw out those vowels when they're being condescending or snobby).

Goths are basically the same thing—posers who eventually grow into it. Either they're just kids, or they're broke and can't afford the high-end designer stuff, or maybe they're just acting out because they're bored or feel like they need to lean into some "edgy" persona involving death and darkness to feel special.
But honestly? It’s totally mainstream. Everything you see at the local dive bars, the offbeat boutiques, or that park over by the downtown plaza... it’s all just predictably basic.

Kyle Nelson2 said:If I were to translate what you're saying into plain, small-town talk:
punks? Please. They're just posers with a slightly different wardrobe...

🙂
Sure, if you want to look at it that way.
Whether you're playing the punk, the tantric practitioner, or some wandering yogi... it doesn't matter... it's all the same... 😉

It's incredibly rare to find someone who actually understands that you have to strip away every single layer of useless identity...

Nancy Thompson3, I’ve been there—I was a victim of the ego back then, and honestly, part of me still is. I get why the terminology trips people up. Look at it this way: we exist, right? So, "I" exist. But the second you actually stop to ask *who* or *what* that "I" really is, everything gets blurry. Most people just end up inventing a version of themselves to cling to. They latch onto this concept of who they think they should be. That mental construct? That’s the Ego.
So, I’m a corporate guy, a skater, a goth, a politician, whatever... it’s all just social branding. It's basically the ego playing out on a societal level. We’re constantly trying to project some specific image, presenting ourselves to the world as one thing or another just to fit in or stand out. That’s the ego at work. Obviously, the ego is a total lie. It isn't us. It’s just a deeply ingrained thought pattern.

Character is basically just part of the ego.
It’s the role we’ve decided to play. Look, Dana Brooks3, beyond the ego lies the true self—authentic, spontaneous, just *there*. It never actually leaves.
But seriously, is it even possible to be without an ego RIGHT NOW? To just exist unconditionally?
That’s my question. Or is this whole process of social conditioning actually necessary for growth?
And I mean real growth—the natural flow of change... like a seed becoming a plant, or an embryo becoming a baby.
bluemason3 made a pretty interesting point... there's a surface layer of the ego shaped by society, and then there's a deeper layer... but then again... what exactly is that deeper part?
I’ve felt the ego slip away a few times—that total detachment from the idea of "me"... and it was great. Actually, "great" isn't the right word... it's hard to explain looking back. It happened to me once while I was drinking a cup of bitter coffee, which I usually hate... I was frustrated with everything, especially since I had to head into work and the day was just going south... I don't know exactly what triggered the ego-dissolution, maybe it was some thought I kept looping in my head... something about how I already am who I am, that I don't need to change, that I'm already just a passive version of ME... something like that hit a switch and BAM.
I was in this totally new state of mental alertness and balance... and that cup of coffee ended up being the best experience of my life... hahaha... weird, but I was completely awake and all those egoic patterns just seemed hilarious. Man, that was my experience.

It isn't a misunderstanding; I’d call it an insistence on precision.
The ego can manifest spiritually, too. "I am a seeker," "I am a yogi," "I am a tantric practitioner"... when in reality, you are absolutely nothing. That would be the most accurate definition of what you actually are.

Whether someone invents themselves as a spiritual guru or a punk rocker, it doesn't matter. Both are just fabrications.

Arthur Grant4 said:Nancy Thompson3, I’ve been there—I was a victim of the ego back then, and honestly, part of me still is. I get why the terminology trips people up. Look at it this way: we exist, right? So, "I" exist. But the second you actually stop to ask *who* or *what* that "I" really is, everything gets blurry. Most people just end up inventing a version of themselves to cling to. They latch onto this concept of who they think they should be. That mental construct? That’s the Ego.
So, I’m a corporate guy, a skater, a goth, a politician, whatever... it’s all just social branding. It's basically the ego playing out on a societal level. We’re constantly trying to project some specific image, presenting ourselves to the world as one thing or another just to fit in or stand out. That’s the ego at work. Obviously, the ego is a total lie. It isn't us. It’s just a deeply ingrained thought pattern.

I’ll say it plainly: without that Ego—using your definition, which I respect because, honestly, an undefined Ego means nothing... you can't function in society
. For society to accept you, it has to recognize you. ("Recognition," alongside "concept" and "communication," is just one of those overused, hollow words favored by art critics, those pretentious wannabe intellectuals in New York, certain activists, the poor souls over at Barnes & Noble, and so on).
To recognize you, society has to be able to categorize you. If they can't put you in a box, they’ll just label you as "WEIRD" and start ignoring you, belittling you, or even attacking you.

That’s why I choose the label of REBEL. I like to mess with those little pretenders, the posers, and the pseudo-intellectuals, breaking through their polished facades. And I do it well—not physically, obviously, but psychologically. And man, does it sting.

Look, I’m not trying to be some yoga guru, a sage, an enlightened being, or some Zen master... I just want to figure out how to drop the baggage, like in that one Zen story. HOW?
The ego is nothing but dead weight. It serves zero purpose.
It’s like driving a pickup truck that’s constantly stuffed with trash, and then you wonder why there’s no room left inside.

Arthur Grant4 said:Look, I’m not trying to be some yoga guru, a sage, an enlightened being, or some Zen master... I just want to figure out how to drop the baggage, like in that one Zen story. HOW?
The ego is nothing but dead weight. It serves zero purpose.
It’s like driving a pickup truck that’s constantly stuffed with trash, and then you wonder why there’s no room left inside.

The ego is actually an instrument. Sometimes it feels heavy, like a massive telescope sitting in a vault at JPMorgan Chase, and other times it's light as a laser rangefinder. But it's necessary.
The moment you start dressing to look harmonious or pleasing to the eye, you're basically just following the ego's lead. Because if you dress totally haphazardly—not because you actually want to, but just because you couldn't care less—you're going to catch heat from women first and foremost. And let me tell you, fighting them is a losing battle; they'll scream and tear into you like Tasmanian Devils.

hahahahaha... sure, you can dress sharp without letting your ego run the show, even if you're doing it specifically to turn heads... but let’s be real, that won't actually matter to you, and you won't even identify with it... right?

You know what’s actually interesting here, Arthur Grant4.
And who exactly is trying to get rid of the ego anyway?
How can you possibly be sure that right now—at this exact stage of your journey, where you've experienced those brief minutes or hours of pure, mindless awareness—that you can actually survive without an ego?

Has it even crossed your mind that as long as you haven't crystallized that true Center of Being within yourself, the ego acts as a necessary ballast... keeping you anchored in what people call a "stable" state? In other words... it's what maintains your equilibrium.

Arthur Grant4 said:hahahahaha... sure, you can dress sharp without letting your ego run the show, even if you're doing it specifically to turn heads... but let’s be real, that won't actually matter to you, and you won't even identify with it... right?

I don't think that's possible. I guess... because "dressing well" basically just means following established rules. There’s no such thing as a universal standard for what looks "good."