Is spirituality a form of personal growth?

Alright, I see this is one of those (rare) topics where the "experts" have gathered, so I’ll be completely honest with you..

I have lost my ego entirely. I don't think it happened all at once; it was more of a process..
If you're asking how, I don't really know how to answer that, but I can say I just followed that innermost voice..
And there's one more thing: I shifted my entire focus to the opposite side—moving from the object to the subject.
The object was the world around me, and the subject was me. Or rather, my existence in this world..

In the beginning, it was nice—blissful, even. I was focused (and still am) on my chest area, and there is nothing but absolute peace and tranquility there..
That lasted for a while..
Then I started descending. I should mention that it is a truly, deeply unpleasant experience. I don't know how to explain it; it’s like falling off a thoroughbred onto a donkey, or like trading gold for scrap iron and being forced to pay extra on top of it..
My thoughts turned to: "What have I lost?" I began this futile search for my former self, but going back was impossible..
To make a long story short, I'm lucky I stumbled upon the Tibetan Book of the Dead. It gave me some direction; otherwise, I’d probably be on lithium and whatever else people with schizophrenia take..
It was an experience where logical self-control vanished—a total absence of reason, where a flood of subconscious or unconscious content literally overwhelms my mind..
Do you have any idea what kind of hell that was for me?!
I’d be sitting with my mother, my brother, a friend, a neighbor—doesn't matter who—and this torrent of subconscious thoughts just keeps flowing. They’re talking to me, and I’m just staring at them, completely losing it, while a mass of dark thoughts and everything else attacks me. Literally, everything that crossed my mind, out of nowhere, became reality..
There were times when I’d be sitting alone on my bed, and what was around me wasn't reality, but just distorted projections of it—hallucinations.
Or I’d go out for a drink, and the sound of a car would be so piercingly loud that I’d start feeling nauseated by the noise, or the sound of sticks hitting the pavement..😲
I'm telling you, thank God someone finds a teaching like the Tibetan Book of the Dead in a state like that..

All those hallucinations were due to my karma. Whatever karma I had, those hallucinations were the result, whether good or bad..

Even now, I don't have a "self," but I haven't reached enlightenment either. I'm somewhere in between, and as the book says, I am in the process of re-forming—finding the new body I will inhabit... This might all sound a bit too mystical for some..

But let me ask you something. Before you start overthinking all of this, ask yourself one question: do you actually want to participate in this world? Do you want to be a human, something more, or something less?

Arthur Grant4 said:Character is basically just part of the ego.
It’s the role we’ve decided to play. Look, Dana Brooks3, beyond the ego lies the true self—authentic, spontaneous, just *there*. It never actually leaves.
But seriously, is it even possible to be without an ego RIGHT NOW? To just exist unconditionally?
That’s my question. Or is this whole process of social conditioning actually necessary for growth?
And I mean real growth—the natural flow of change... like a seed becoming a plant, or an embryo becoming a baby.
bluemason3 made a pretty interesting point... there's a surface layer of the ego shaped by society, and then there's a deeper layer... but then again... what exactly is that deeper part?
I’ve felt the ego slip away a few times—that total detachment from the idea of "me"... and it was great. Actually, "great" isn't the right word... it's hard to explain looking back. It happened to me once while I was drinking a cup of bitter coffee, which I usually hate... I was frustrated with everything, especially since I had to head into work and the day was just going south... I don't know exactly what triggered the ego-dissolution, maybe it was some thought I kept looping in my head... something about how I already am who I am, that I don't need to change, that I'm already just a passive version of ME... something like that hit a switch and BAM.
I was in this totally new state of mental alertness and balance... and that cup of coffee ended up being the best experience of my life... hahaha... weird, but I was completely awake and all those egoic patterns just seemed hilarious. Man, that was my experience.

Those are moments. And I think Ivan explained what it actually is a bit more precisely.
Thanks for sharing; I respect your experience😉 and I get it.
Mine was roughly like... I can't quite recount it, but I'll try, since I started this myself, so I won't stay silent... If I mention some of the things leading up to it, maybe Belki would know what I mean, because they had someone nearby going through something similar.
In the final stage, let's say... when the "I" dissolved... at least that's how I realized it later... there just wasn't one... and consciousness wasn't able to hold me together anymore. There was no... spiritual balance like Ivan talks about.
As for consciousness... it's like... I don't know how to describe it... it wasn't the kind of consciousness that lets me talk to you or type on a forum. It was a consciousness where... without words... you communicate with everything. There are no boundaries. You and everything else... you become one... it merges. I can't explain it, really.
But I didn't know about ME. There was no "I." I didn't even know where I was. Or what people were doing to me.
It is literally being "out of yourself." And on one hand, for a moment, people might see you as a saint... and what I was doing and capable of then... wasn't for everyone.
On the other hand, you're a total lunatic who needs to be calmed down the only way they know how. Like being sent to a psych ward in a big city to get hit with horse tranquilizers just to burn out your brain enough so that, eventually... you come back.
Thirdly, if you are one with everything and lose the "I"... you feel everything that is contained within "everything." And I don't just mean divine beauty, peace, and wonder... I mean the pain, the suffering, the horror. When all of that starts flowing through your physical body... there isn't much room... for idealizing certain states.
That’s how I understood losing the Ego.
And yeah, I think I went through some things unprepared, and my experience certainly isn't a standard, nor do I want to claim things are exactly as I perceive them. I'm probably being subjective. It's not like I've... talked to anyone about this. Not that I could, wanted to, or knew how. Nor is it easy to write something in a post now... and trivialize it all... but still, I want to, at least a little. Generally... I try in life... though that seems to be the hardest thing to do...
I I want to laugh as much as I possibly can. Laughter is my way out. Society, constraints, limitations, people, all that "smallness"... it actually makes sense. There’s love and acceptance—and knowing when to reject things—all tucked inside it. It opens me up... on every level.
I just needed a little more to get there😁
I'm a pretty cheerful guy🙂

Noah Sanchez7 said:Alright, I see this is one of those (rare) topics where the "experts" have gathered, so I’ll be completely honest with you..

I have lost my ego entirely. I don't think it happened all at once; it was more of a process..
If you're asking how, I don't really know how to answer that, but I can say I just followed that innermost voice..
And there's one more thing: I shifted my entire focus to the opposite side—moving from the object to the subject.
The object was the world around me, and the subject was me. Or rather, my existence in this world..

In the beginning, it was nice—blissful, even. I was focused (and still am) on my chest area, and there is nothing but absolute peace and tranquility there..
That lasted for a while..
Then I started descending. I should mention that it is a truly, deeply unpleasant experience. I don't know how to explain it; it’s like falling off a thoroughbred onto a donkey, or like trading gold for scrap iron and being forced to pay extra on top of it..
My thoughts turned to: "What have I lost?" I began this futile search for my former self, but going back was impossible..
To make a long story short, I'm lucky I stumbled upon the Tibetan Book of the Dead. It gave me some direction; otherwise, I’d probably be on lithium and whatever else people with schizophrenia take..
It was an experience where logical self-control vanished—a total absence of reason, where a flood of subconscious or unconscious content literally overwhelms my mind..
Do you have any idea what kind of hell that was for me?!
I’d be sitting with my mother, my brother, a friend, a neighbor—doesn't matter who—and this torrent of subconscious thoughts just keeps flowing. They’re talking to me, and I’m just staring at them, completely losing it, while a mass of dark thoughts and everything else attacks me. Literally, everything that crossed my mind, out of nowhere, became reality..
There were times when I’d be sitting alone on my bed, and what was around me wasn't reality, but just distorted projections of it—hallucinations.
Or I’d go out for a drink, and the sound of a car would be so piercingly loud that I’d start feeling nauseated by the noise, or the sound of sticks hitting the pavement..😲
I'm telling you, thank God someone finds a teaching like the Tibetan Book of the Dead in a state like that..

All those hallucinations were due to my karma. Whatever karma I had, those hallucinations were the result, whether good or bad..

Even now, I don't have a "self," but I haven't reached enlightenment either. I'm somewhere in between, and as the book says, I am in the process of re-forming—finding the new body I will inhabit... This might all sound a bit too mystical for some..

But let me ask you something. Before you start overthinking all of this, ask yourself one question: do you actually want to participate in this world? Do you want to be a human, something more, or something less?

I’m not going to bother commenting on your experience; you were honest about it, so I guess there isn't much point.
As for my answer to your question:

Yeah, I want to be part of this world. It feels like my mission—and honestly, it's the mission for everyone actually participating in this thing. To do nothing would just be pure selfishness, and that would basically mean failing our purpose.

I want to be human, but I'm not *just* human. I know what I am, which is why I can play the human role without feeling any disgust or shame or whatever.
But I won't let "humanity" take over me. I'm the one in control here.
I'm already something more, and being something less... well, that's just not my mission.

Nancy Thompson3 said:I’m not going to bother commenting on your experience; you were honest about it, so I guess there isn't much point.
As for my answer to your question:

Yeah, I want to be part of this world. It feels like my mission—and honestly, it's the mission for everyone actually participating in this thing. To do nothing would just be pure selfishness, and that would basically mean failing our purpose.

I want to be human, but I'm not *just* human. I know what I am, which is why I can play the human role without feeling any disgust or shame or whatever.
But I won't let "humanity" take over me. I'm the one in control here.
I'm already something more, and being something less... well, that's just not my mission.

If that's your answer—and I'd say it's the answer for most of you, including myself—then you actually need an ego..

If you want to change things, let me be blunt.. If you want to contribute to this world and you know that (change) aligns with what God intends, then you need an ego..

You need it at least enough to show others that you don't actually need one.. (nor do they).

Noah Sanchez7 said:If that's your answer—and I'd say it's the answer for most of you, including myself—then you actually need an ego..

If you want to change things, let me be blunt.. If you want to contribute to this world and you know that (change) aligns with what God intends, then you need an ego..

You need it at least enough to show others that you don't actually need one.. (nor do they).

That's right! 👍
The ego is just part of being human. It gets messy when human nature tries to run the show for the divine. But it’s just as bad when the divine smothers our humanity entirely.
So, yes to the ego. But the ego isn't God. It’s not the boss; it’s just a tool.
And I'm the one holding the leash. Believe me, I am. It’s bumped into plenty of people, and now they’re all crying about it. But I only bumped into them because they were busy using their own little egos to come after me.

Nancy Thompson3 said:That's right! 👍
The ego is just part of being human. It gets messy when human nature tries to run the show for the divine. But it’s just as bad when the divine smothers our humanity entirely.
So, yes to the ego. But the ego isn't God. It’s not the boss; it’s just a tool.
And I'm the one holding the leash. Believe me, I am. It’s bumped into plenty of people, and now they’re all crying about it. But I only bumped into them because they were busy using their own little egos to come after me.

Spot on. You put that perfectly, and I'll just add a thought to prevent any confusion...
Think of the ego as both a cat and a shield. Without the ego, you lose both.

All this talk about the ego is beautiful, but it's also incredibly slippery ground. If a person isn't guided by someone who has already successfully walked that path, they can easily slip—to the point where the ice takes over and they won't even know how to get back up.

Without the ego, we are nothing more than animals drowning in an endless sea of brotherhood and oneness.

Ryan Wilson2 said:Without the ego, we are nothing more than animals drowning in an endless sea of brotherhood and oneness.

That's just not true. Our humanity, which is what actually sets us apart from animals, isn't defined by the ego. Saying the ego is the only thing separating us from the animal kingdom is a huge mistake.

Noah Sanchez7 said:That's just not true. Our humanity, which is what actually sets us apart from animals, isn't defined by the ego. Saying the ego is the only thing separating us from the animal kingdom is a huge mistake.

It may not be the only factor, but it remains critical because the ego is the primary mechanism through which we interface with the external world.

So, I ask you: what else distinguishes us from animals if we set the ego aside?

In this life, you have to play both sides. You need to weave through things like a snake moving through the brush.
The goal is to use them, not to be used by them.
And honestly, that’s exactly what everyone is looking for when they go searching for "training"...

At its core, the ego isn't the issue—it's the identification with it.
When we talk about the "death of the ego," what we really mean is disidentification. It’s the process of draining the energy used to maintain that mental image of yourself. The ego is just a constructed self-image... basically, a loss of identity. The mind begins to unravel, but in doing so, it falls under the control of the consciousness that was sitting quietly in the background all along.

Consciousness is what draws the line between a human being and an animal. Not the ego. Specifically, consciousness.

Brandon Hall88 said:In this life, you have to play both sides. You need to weave through things like a snake moving through the brush.
The goal is to use them, not to be used by them.
And honestly, that’s exactly what everyone is looking for when they go searching for "training"...

At its core, the ego isn't the issue—it's the identification with it.
When we talk about the "death of the ego," what we really mean is disidentification. It’s the process of draining the energy used to maintain that mental image of yourself. The ego is just a constructed self-image... basically, a loss of identity. The mind begins to unravel, but in doing so, it falls under the control of the consciousness that was sitting quietly in the background all along.

Consciousness is what draws the line between a human being and an animal. Not the ego. Specifically, consciousness.

That was my initial thought as well—viewing the ego merely as a tool utilized by consciousness. I had assumed such a distinction was self-evident.

Ryan Wilson2 said:It may not be the only factor, but it remains critical because the ego is the primary mechanism through which we interface with the external world.

So, I ask you: what else distinguishes us from animals if we set the ego aside?

No. With our ego, we just interact with other egos, which isn't about the outside world at all—it’s just about social circles. If there weren't another ego facing mine, we wouldn't just have contact; we would have a connection that is much more beautiful, pleasant, and noble. That is the whole point..

The difference is that we can consciously influence ourselves, whereas an animal is a slave to its desires; that link is the only thing connecting us to the animal kingdom. That's why they say humans are part animal and part God. We exist somewhere in between, and that is our "greatest curse"..

Everything material depends on the material. Wherever there is dependency, there is no absolute freedom, and therefore no total liberation... Not until death..

I would describe Buddhism, or perhaps Buddha himself, as a "truth fanatic." And even if truth itself is eternal, we as we are are not! We are "trapped" in the material, so truly, our actions should be directed against "repeated action." Why?
Because truth leans toward purity, and birth itself is inherently messy when viewed from that highest point of truth..

However, there is still plenty of acting and dying left to do here, because judging by the collective consciousness of the people, we are "still young."
What is the "world of action"? It is this world.
The moment you find yourself needing "action," it means you "want" something, and desire itself is an illusion; it never satisfies us permanently, only temporarily, before a new desire arises, and so it goes on forever..

Noah Sanchez7 said:No. With our ego, we just interact with other egos, which isn't about the outside world at all—it’s just about social circles. If there weren't another ego facing mine, we wouldn't just have contact; we would have a connection that is much more beautiful, pleasant, and noble. That is the whole point..

The difference is that we can consciously influence ourselves, whereas an animal is a slave to its desires; that link is the only thing connecting us to the animal kingdom. That's why they say humans are part animal and part God. We exist somewhere in between, and that is our "greatest curse"..

Everything material depends on the material. Wherever there is dependency, there is no absolute freedom, and therefore no total liberation... Not until death..

I would describe Buddhism, or perhaps Buddha himself, as a "truth fanatic." And even if truth itself is eternal, we as we are are not! We are "trapped" in the material, so truly, our actions should be directed against "repeated action." Why?
Because truth leans toward purity, and birth itself is inherently messy when viewed from that highest point of truth..

However, there is still plenty of acting and dying left to do here, because judging by the collective consciousness of the people, we are "still young."
What is the "world of action"? It is this world.
The moment you find yourself needing "action," it means you "want" something, and desire itself is an illusion; it never satisfies us permanently, only temporarily, before a new desire arises, and so it goes on forever..

It isn't the spine, it’s the neck. And where would we even be without society? Most likely stuck in the belly of some animal.

The moment you find yourself needing "action," it means you "desire" something. Desire itself is an illusion because it never provides lasting satisfaction—it's always short-lived, only to be replaced by a new craving, and so on, indefinitely...

I don't see anything inherently wrong with satisfying one's desires. Of course, I am not referring to pathological extremes here, but why should there be an issue if I satisfy my desire for a comfortable bed, a room free of mosquitoes, and a cold beer? It's even easier to just employ some spiritual rhetoric and write something profound like, "I am basking in the infinite moment of present contentment, for past and future do not exist—there is only the now."

😁

Hell isn't about losing your ego... it's about what happens when you try to find your balance afterward.
Right now, this process of letting the ego die is basically just an "alignment" with reality, and honestly, it feels a lot like euphoria.
But once that emotion finally drains away, your consciousness gets flooded by all those suppressed contents... things people often mistake for hallucinations. You’re suddenly forced to face everything you thought you were, and everything the world around you holds.
The issue isn't actually you—it's just that the Samskaras, those unconscious patterns, start igniting rapidly. The real problem is that you're still tethered to the collective "reservoir" of the unconscious surrounding you. That whole mess starts catching fire, and it won't stop until you've dealt with it head-on.

A person still uses their mind, but they aren't shackled by mental logic or the mind itself anymore.
As long as you're living in this reality, you have a mind. Whether you like it or not, it's there. Now, they say there are extreme cases—people like certain famous Masters—who have managed to exist in Nirvikalpo samadhi while still functioning and living right here in this reality...

Arthur Grant4 said:Look at any random guy walking down the street or someone in your own neighborhood. There’s a massive chance that person is basically just a collection of social labels and a self-image they've built up over time. They’re a product of their environment... waking up really means grasping your true nature and finally snapping those ego chains.
But wait—could adopting that identity actually be a necessary stage of growth? Like, maybe you have to play the part before you can move past the ego toward actual consciousness?
Or is our modern civilization just designed to brainwash us? Is it possible we're spiritually regressing compared to those who came before us, meaning this whole spiritual movement sweeping the nation is actually just a collective attempt to remember what we lost and find our way back?
Which one is it?

If anyone actually wants to give me an answer... 🙂
Is the ego inherently bad or good?
Is the ego absolutely necessary, or is it just baggage?
How are you even supposed to tell what part is your ego and what part is actually *you*?
And what even is this "true nature" everyone talks about? Isn't that just another manifestation of the ego anyway?

urbangardener35 said:If anyone actually wants to give me an answer... 🙂
Is the ego inherently bad or good?
Is the ego absolutely necessary, or is it just baggage?
How are you even supposed to tell what part is your ego and what part is actually *you*?
And what even is this "true nature" everyone talks about? Isn't that just another manifestation of the ego anyway?

....so here's the copy/paste job 🙂

The ego is totally necessary for surviving day-to-day life because it handles the controlling, the comparing, the limiting, and basically steers a person toward making progress. It’s what separates reality from fiction, allows for planning and procrastination to get things done, keeps you safe from danger, and tells you what's best for you in any given moment.
But even though the ego is vital for getting through daily life, it's also the exact foundation for most people's emotional and spiritual messes. Because of it, a person ends up living in a dualistic world, and it stops them from having any direct contact with their "true self."
That's why all those self-discovery techniques are basically just designed to find a way around it. 👍

urbangardener35 said:If anyone actually wants to give me an answer... 🙂
Is the ego inherently bad or good?
Is the ego absolutely necessary, or is it just baggage?
How are you even supposed to tell what part is your ego and what part is actually *you*?
And what even is this "true nature" everyone talks about? Isn't that just another manifestation of the ego anyway?

It feels a little strange seeing you ask this, since I've always thought of you as quite the philosopher—unless I'm mistaken about who I'm talking to, which I'm not..

Where is this coming from?

The way I see it, logic isn't the end goal; it's just a tool you have to learn how to use properly to reach your destination, and you certainly know how to handle it..
Maybe try factoring in a bit of human psychology to find a common thread. Find that sense of what truly sets you free versus what keeps you stuck, and then just follow the right path..

Brandon Hall88 said:Hell isn't about losing your ego... it's about what happens when you try to find your balance afterward.
Right now, this process of letting the ego die is basically just an "alignment" with reality, and honestly, it feels a lot like euphoria.
But once that emotion finally drains away, your consciousness gets flooded by all those suppressed contents... things people often mistake for hallucinations. You’re suddenly forced to face everything you thought you were, and everything the world around you holds.
The issue isn't actually you—it's just that the Samskaras, those unconscious patterns, start igniting rapidly. The real problem is that you're still tethered to the collective "reservoir" of the unconscious surrounding you. That whole mess starts catching fire, and it won't stop until you've dealt with it head-on.

A person still uses their mind, but they aren't shackled by mental logic or the mind itself anymore.
As long as you're living in this reality, you have a mind. Whether you like it or not, it's there. Now, they say there are extreme cases—people like certain famous Masters—who have managed to exist in Nirvikalpo samadhi while still functioning and living right here in this reality...

You put that well.

That part I bolded >> hmm... that truly describes a Master. It’s like being given the task of merging two incompatible worlds into one and actually succeeding.

So, what would the "guidance" have to be? I suspect the only way is to choose actions guided by this world while completely renouncing any desire to reap the rewards of your own work.
Then, you stay pure.

Ryan Wilson2 said:It isn't the spine, it’s the neck. And where would we even be without society? Most likely stuck in the belly of some animal.

The moment you find yourself needing "action," it means you "desire" something. Desire itself is an illusion because it never provides lasting satisfaction—it's always short-lived, only to be replaced by a new craving, and so on, indefinitely...

I don't see anything inherently wrong with satisfying one's desires. Of course, I am not referring to pathological extremes here, but why should there be an issue if I satisfy my desire for a comfortable bed, a room free of mosquitoes, and a cold beer? It's even easier to just employ some spiritual rhetoric and write something profound like, "I am basking in the infinite moment of present contentment, for past and future do not exist—there is only the now."

😁

That's fine by me. I don't think there's anything bad in that. 🙂

Lisa Cox4 said:....so here's the copy/paste job 🙂

The ego is totally necessary for surviving day-to-day life because it handles the controlling, the comparing, the limiting, and basically steers a person toward making progress. It’s what separates reality from fiction, allows for planning and procrastination to get things done, keeps you safe from danger, and tells you what's best for you in any given moment.
But even though the ego is vital for getting through daily life, it's also the exact foundation for most people's emotional and spiritual messes. Because of it, a person ends up living in a dualistic world, and it stops them from having any direct contact with their "true self."
That's why all those self-discovery techniques are basically just designed to find a way around it. 👍

Short, clear, concise, and comprehensive... 👍