What's the point of Zen koans?

Hannah Wilson3 said:Miscellaneous!

"once upon a time there was a goose in a bottle..." 😬🤣🤣

Austin Hayes66 said:"once upon a time there was a goose in a bottle..." 😬🤣🤣

Maybe there was also a bottle in the goose. 😂

Austin Hayes66 said:It can be done! 👍 Here’s how:
1-nothing exists
2-nothing is nothing
3-nothing both is and isn't
4-nothing is neither being nor non-being. 👍

So, did you finally grasp the istina, Mr. Weather Forecast? 👍 Just move along then... 🤣🤣🤣👍

Well, you’ve fascinated me once again—4, 3, 2, 1—and I am moving on!

electricdrifter68 said:Well, you’ve fascinated me once again—4, 3, 2, 1—and I am moving on!

Get outta here! 👍🤣🤣

Austin Hayes66 said:Get outta here! 👍🤣🤣

What happened? You swapped racism for chauvinism now? I guess that addict is really starting to rub off on you.

Austin Hayes66 said:Get outta here! 👍🤣🤣

Why on earth would I leave when things are going so well right here?👍 In fact, I might just settle down and sleep right where I am.🙂 What choice do I have when you haven't exactly led me toward the light yet?😲 My head is still absolutely overflowing with nonsense.😉

electricdrifter68 said:Why on earth would I leave when things are going so well right here?👍 In fact, I might just settle down and sleep right where I am.🙂 What choice do I have when you haven't exactly led me toward the light yet?😲 My head is still absolutely overflowing with nonsense.😉

You made a good point about those geese.
That Zen Koan seems like a pretty foolish thought, I guess.
Think about it: a riddle without an answer—like a goose in a bottle—is just a trapped thought. I guess if we free our minds, we might actually set that goose free.
The issue with Zen Koans isn't that they lack logic. It’s more that the subtle wordplay usually gets lost in translation. I guess the nuances just don't carry over well.

Austin Hayes66 said:"once upon a time there was a goose in a bottle..." 😬🤣🤣

And both exist only within the mind of Quinn.

Hen to Pan taj Rea ki

Hen to Pan =
All is One

Panta Rhei =
Everything flows—everything is in constant motion.

Rei Ki =
The universal, cosmic energy.

Summary:
Everything is a single, universal energy that is perpetually moving.

Which means:
There is no goose and there is no bottle—they are merely external forms of energy that will eventually shift into some other shape.
There is no goose in a bottle because boundaries are an illusion; you could just as easily have a bottle inside a goose—it doesn't matter when they are made of the exact same essence.
There is no goose in a bottle in the minds of the forum users—because the Koan has been resolved.

Hannah Wilson3 said:And both exist only within the mind of Quinn.

Hen to Pan taj Rea ki

Hen to Pan =
All is One

Panta Rhei =
Everything flows—everything is in constant motion.

Rei Ki =
The universal, cosmic energy.

Summary:
Everything is a single, universal energy that is perpetually moving.

Which means:
There is no goose and there is no bottle—they are merely external forms of energy that will eventually shift into some other shape.
There is no goose in a bottle because boundaries are an illusion; you could just as easily have a bottle inside a goose—it doesn't matter when they are made of the exact same essence.
There is no goose in a bottle in the minds of the forum users—because the Koan has been resolved.

I suppose we can't simplify it quite that much. You aren't really "not in prison" just because you're behind bars. After all, both your body and the bars are made of similar leptons and quarks. Or force fields. We can play with that idea mentally, I guess, but we shouldn't forget that fields are still fields, and their configuration defines reality. And the reality is: there are bars, and you are behind them.

The Shell:
Thought becomes trapped because it tries to find a solution to an unsolvable problem using the shell.
That is basically what thought in a bottle is. The bottle is a dead loop. An unsolvable problem.
Stopping the attempt to solve the problem—realizing there is no solution—means canceling out the shell problem entirely. Programmers might call that an escape, a break, or something similar. An exit.
When a teacher tells an official, "She is outside," his thoughts shift away from the shell toward something else, becoming free. In doing so, both the bottle and the goose vanish as problems.

Or: if I show up at my friend's place while MrQ is hiding in the restroom, there are two ways to handle it:
a) I accidentally wander into the restroom.
b) I pretend to be crazy and wait to see how long he can stay in there.

I went with option b), I guess.
After enough time passes, everyone just waves their hand and goes, "Well, forget the goose." And that is the solution, the exit. Just like when he finally comes out of the restroom.

Douglas Brown4 said:I suppose we can't simplify it quite that much. You aren't really "not in prison" just because you're behind bars. After all, both your body and the bars are made of similar leptons and quarks. Or force fields. We can play with that idea mentally, I guess, but we shouldn't forget that fields are still fields, and their configuration defines reality. And the reality is: there are bars, and you are behind them.

The Shell:
Thought becomes trapped because it tries to find a solution to an unsolvable problem using the shell.
That is basically what thought in a bottle is. The bottle is a dead loop. An unsolvable problem.
Stopping the attempt to solve the problem—realizing there is no solution—means canceling out the shell problem entirely. Programmers might call that an escape, a break, or something similar. An exit.
When a teacher tells an official, "She is outside," his thoughts shift away from the shell toward something else, becoming free. In doing so, both the bottle and the goose vanish as problems.

Or: if I show up at my friend's place while MrQ is hiding in the restroom, there are two ways to handle it:
a) I accidentally wander into the restroom.
b) I pretend to be crazy and wait to see how long he can stay in there.

I went with option b), I guess.
After enough time passes, everyone just waves their hand and goes, "Well, forget the goose." And that is the solution, the exit. Just like when he finally comes out of the restroom.

A physical body exists behind physical bars. But then again, there are psychological bars too—take nationalism, for example.
The best examples of being unbound by physical cages would be someone like Sri Aurobindo, who managed to express the sheer depth of a poetic soul while sitting in an actual jail cell; or Mr. Trilinga Swami, who, whenever he was arrested, would somehow just "find himself" standing on the prison roof, completely free.

Hannah Wilson3 said:A physical body exists behind physical bars. But then again, there are psychological bars too—take nationalism, for example.
The best examples of being unbound by physical cages would be someone like Sri Aurobindo, who managed to express the sheer depth of a poetic soul while sitting in an actual jail cell; or Mr. Trilinga Swami, who, whenever he was arrested, would somehow just "find himself" standing on the prison roof, completely free.

I guess I completely agree with you here.
But maybe that's too high of a skill level to use as a standard example right now.
Though, if we really look at it, a queen ant almost shows properties of teleportation. Unless that was all just a hoax, I suppose.

Douglas Brown4 said:I guess I completely agree with you here.
But maybe that's too high of a skill level to use as a standard example right now.
Though, if we really look at it, a queen ant almost shows properties of teleportation. Unless that was all just a hoax, I suppose.

Even if it isn't teleportation, it's definitely showing some kind of telepathy, right?

Hannah Wilson3 said:Even if it isn't teleportation, it's definitely showing some kind of telepathy, right?

Anyway.
For those who aren't aware: they analyzed the position of an otherwise heavy, bulky ant queen inside her colony. Even though the passages through the nest are narrow and she can't move, she was constantly changing her location within the mound.
I guess I read about that a long time ago, so I'm not entirely sure what the takeaway was.

Douglas Brown4 said:I suppose we can't simplify it quite that much. You aren't really "not in prison" just because you're behind bars. After all, both your body and the bars are made of similar leptons and quarks. Or force fields. We can play with that idea mentally, I guess, but we shouldn't forget that fields are still fields, and their configuration defines reality. And the reality is: there are bars, and you are behind them.

The Shell:
Thought becomes trapped because it tries to find a solution to an unsolvable problem using the shell.
That is basically what thought in a bottle is. The bottle is a dead loop. An unsolvable problem.
Stopping the attempt to solve the problem—realizing there is no solution—means canceling out the shell problem entirely. Programmers might call that an escape, a break, or something similar. An exit.
When a teacher tells an official, "She is outside," his thoughts shift away from the shell toward something else, becoming free. In doing so, both the bottle and the goose vanish as problems.

Or: if I show up at my friend's place while MrQ is hiding in the restroom, there are two ways to handle it:
a) I accidentally wander into the restroom.
b) I pretend to be crazy and wait to see how long he can stay in there.

I went with option b), I guess.
After enough time passes, everyone just waves their hand and goes, "Well, forget the goose." And that is the solution, the exit. Just like when he finally comes out of the restroom.

The prison, the bars, and even MrQ 😁 exist ONLY within your head (thoughts inside the mind), and without your head, there is neither prison nor bars.

Karen Sanchez19 said:The prison, the bars, and even MrQ 😁 exist ONLY within your head (thoughts inside the mind), and without your head, there is neither prison nor bars.

I think I’ve already mentioned that I don’t buy into this. You aren't going to change my mind.

Douglas Brown4 said:I think I’ve already mentioned that I don’t buy into this. You aren't going to change my mind.

Picture this: you're rotting in a cell at Rikers Island 😍 🙂 just sitting there behind bars, absolutely certain of your confinement.

1) Where does the prison end and the bars begin when you're dead to the world in a dreamless sleep?
2) And where are the bars—or even the prison itself—if you happen to be dreaming about a sunny picnic in Central Park?

3) Whether you're actually behind bars or walking free, you're still trapped by some set of "bars"—limitations imposed from various angles.

It is nothing more than your own conviction. 😁

If the Absolute settles into a single point, then surely you aren't limited either 😁 (and please, spare me the "logical" lecture here).

Hannah Wilson3 said:And both exist only within the mind of Quinn.

Hen to Pan taj Rea ki

Hen to Pan =
All is One

Panta Rhei =
Everything flows—everything is in constant motion.

Rei Ki =
The universal, cosmic energy.

Summary:
Everything is a single, universal energy that is perpetually moving.

Which means:
There is no goose and there is no bottle—they are merely external forms of energy that will eventually shift into some other shape.
There is no goose in a bottle because boundaries are an illusion; you could just as easily have a bottle inside a goose—it doesn't matter when they are made of the exact same essence.
There is no goose in a bottle in the minds of the forum users—because the Koan has been resolved.

You are absolutely correct. The Koan was clarified as far back as the very first page; those who saw it, saw it!
Hen to Pan =
All is One
It is one regardless, since All is one!😉

Karen Sanchez19 said:Picture this: you're rotting in a cell at Rikers Island 😍 🙂 just sitting there behind bars, absolutely certain of your confinement.

1) Where does the prison end and the bars begin when you're dead to the world in a dreamless sleep?
2) And where are the bars—or even the prison itself—if you happen to be dreaming about a sunny picnic in Central Park?

3) Whether you're actually behind bars or walking free, you're still trapped by some set of "bars"—limitations imposed from various angles.

It is nothing more than your own conviction. 😁

If the Absolute settles into a single point, then surely you aren't limited either 😁 (and please, spare me the "logical" lecture here).

They are all around me.

2) And where are the bars or the prison if you happen to dream you're having a picnic in Central Park?

All around me.

3) Whether you're in prison or out of it, you're still stuck behind some kind of "bars," limited by various perspectives.

Maybe "some kind." But not those specific ones. And limitation isn't quite the same thing.

That is just your belief. 😁

No. It is the universe.

If the absolute converges into a single point, then surely you aren't limited either 😁 (p.s. don't try to catch me with that "logical" fallacy now)

What exactly is the absolute?

Douglas Brown4 said:They are all around me.

2) And where are the bars or the prison if you happen to dream you're having a picnic in Central Park?

All around me.

3) Whether you're in prison or out of it, you're still stuck behind some kind of "bars," limited by various perspectives.

Maybe "some kind." But not those specific ones. And limitation isn't quite the same thing.

That is just your belief. 😁

No. It is the universe.

If the absolute converges into a single point, then surely you aren't limited either 😁 (p.s. don't try to catch me with that "logical" fallacy now)

What exactly is the absolute?
What exactly is the absolute?
What exactly is the absolute?
What exactly constitutes the absolute?

Could you perhaps attempt a slightly more subtle approach when answering those questions? 😉 😁

Karen Sanchez19 said:What exactly is the absolute?

What exactly is the absolute?
What exactly constitutes the absolute?

Could you perhaps attempt a slightly more subtle approach when answering those questions? 😉 😁
What exactly constitutes the absolute?

Could you perhaps attempt a slightly more subtle approach when answering those questions? 😉 😁
Maybe you could try being a little more subtle with those questions 😉 😁

Sometimes, what doesn't seem subtle is actually quite subtle.
I don't really view the world around me as a product of my own mind, but rather as a consensus. I suppose it isn't clear what the issue is here.