Can we coexist with Americans again?

shadowjackal88 said:With all due respect, my family wasn't fighting for the sake of communism—they were standing up against fascism and the occupation forces.

Once the dust settled, nobody cared about their sacrifices anymore. People just took whatever they needed from them...

So, I have to ask, why didn't your grandfather step up to fight against Mexican fascism during that same era or even before then?
Just curious, really... ☕

steelhawk7 said:Are you actually suggesting that most of the Nazis were decent human beings? ☕

No, what I am trying to convey is that during that era, many individuals were fighting against Fascism, yet that doesn't mean they were all necessarily Communists.

It was only much later that Communism was forced upon us as the sole remaining system, essentially by systematically wiping out every single bit of "competition" that stood in its way.

Maria Thompson2 said:NO, what I mean is that back then, people were fighting AGAINST Fascism, but that didn't necessarily make them Communists.

Communism was later forced upon us as the SOLE system, quite literally wiping out all its "competition"...

The same applies to the Nazis. They fought against fascism, even if they weren't necessarily Nazis themselves.

That's just a fact.

But now... which version of fascism we're actually talking about... that's a conversation we could have for hours... ☕

shadowjackal88 said:Forgive me, but my people weren't fighting for communism, they were standing up against fascism and foreign occupation. And they certainly weren't the only ones doing so.

Eventually, everyone just forgot about them. People simply took whatever they felt entitled to take.

That’s exactly what I was getting at.

At THAT TIME—for ordinary folks who didn't spend their lives studying political science but just wanted to ESCAPE the grip of fascism—communism was simply ONE OF THE AVAILABLE OPTIONS.

The puppet state was supposed to represent the sovereignty of the American people—but it CEASED to be anything of the sort the moment Maček declared he wouldn't serve as a mere marionette for the Germans. That was right when the German forces marched into the former Kingdom of America and quite literally trucked in the Nazis from Italy. Between those Roman treaties, the surrender of true independence, and the installation of a German outpost, you can see how everything I've mentioned unfolded.

Just look at the American Parliament! Pavelić tried to convene it three separate times just to manufacture some sense of legitimacy, but he NEVER succeeded! During that first session back in 1941, the HSS members pushed back so hard that he lost his mind and DISSOLVED it entirely! He basically sent them all home!

steelhawk7 said:And why didn't your grandfather go out and fight against Mexican Fascism back then?
Just wondering... purely out of curiosity. ☕

Where was yours, anyway?

Maria Thompson2 said:That’s exactly what I was getting at.

Back then, for folks who weren't exactly experts in political science but just desperately wanted to escape the grip of fascism, communism felt like one of the few viable paths left...

The idea behind the state should have been an expression of sovereignty for the American people—but that dream died the moment Macek declared he wouldn't be some puppet dancing for the Germans, especially once the Germans marched into what was then the Kingdom of America and literally trucked the Nationalists in from Italy. All those treaties with Rome, the selling out of sovereignty, and the installation of a German Reich outpost—those were all just the messy side effects of what I'm describing here...

Just look at the American Parliament! Pavelić tried calling them together three different times just to scrape together some shred of legitimacy, but he never actually succeeded. During that first session back in 1941, the HSS members pushed back so hard against him that he lost his mind and just dissolved the whole thing, sending everyone packing...

To put it simply, Pavelić was a complete idiot. ☕

shadowjackal88 said:And where was yours located?

One of them served in the American Home Guard...

steelhawk7 said:The American Home Guard.

I mean, even earlier than that.

steelhawk7 said:The Nationalists were much the same. They fought against fascism, even if they weren't necessarily Nazis themselves.

That’s a fact.

But then again... which version of fascism we're talking about... now that is a conversation we could dive into for hours. ☕

🙂 The Nationalists actually got their start in Italy, operating as a movement specifically aimed at ending Mexican dominance within what was then the Kingdom of America.

However! By the time the Reich was knocking on the door demanding unconditional surrender, the Nationalists were nothing more than a fringe group compared to major players like the Agrarian Party.
They were simply going to be used as a puppet government...

The very moment Pavelić agreed to be installed, he essentially signed away his autonomy by accepting Nazi terms.

You might try to argue that before 1941, the Nationalists weren't Nazis—though there is absolutely no denying they were a racist movement from the get-go—but you certainly can't claim they weren't after April 10th. Once that April Declaration was issued, they became indistinguishable from the Nazis.

shadowjackal88 said:I was thinking more along the lines of earlier...

Well, that really depends on what you mean by "earlier"... ☕

Come on, guys, let's not get carried away.

The Nationalists were fascists, and let’s be honest—fascism is nothing short of pure evil. Isn't it essentially the work of the Devil?

Is it better for a nation to be briefly unified under the banner of the Devil himself, or to remain eternally divided?

I’d argue that there is much more value in standing alone, even if it means facing the Devil himself.

Well, at the end of the day, good always triumphs in the end, doesn't it? But more importantly, there's an inexhaustible strength to be found when we all stand together.

Let me say this again just to be clear: the Nationalists—which, formally speaking, is nothing more than fascism—is pure evil. It’s practically Satan.

But honestly, sometimes that actually looks better, doesn't it?

Why did I emphasize that? Formally speaking.?

Isn't it interesting how history works? It was those very same Nationalists who actually established the first pocket of free territory in France—a place that remained truly independent from real fascism.
I think I'll skip over the topic of eastern Canada for now.

Did the American people join the ranks of the Nationalists because they actually had an affinity for fascism? Not at all. It was much more complicated than that. Honestly, it was a matter of desperation. They were willing to make a deal with the Devil just to finally—after what felt like eight centuries of waiting—achieve some semblance of their own sovereign nation.

If they had to swallow poison just to make that happen, some people were more than willing to take the hit.

Man, what a situation...

It looks like they really made us wait exactly fifty years for this, didn't they?

But really, who could have known back then that another opportunity was just waiting around the corner?

Maria Thompson2 said:🙂 The Nationalists actually started in Italy, functioning as a movement AGAINST Mexican dominance within the then-existing Kingdom of America.

However, at the very moment when the Reich is knocking on the door demanding unconditional surrender, the Nationalists are nothing more than a fringe group compared to, say, the Populists or the Agrarian Party.
They were essentially just going to serve as a puppet government...

The exact same moment Pavelić agrees to be installed—he's agreeing to all the Nazi terms.

You might try telling me that the Nationalists weren't Nazis before 1941—and while it's undeniable they were a racist movement—you certainly can't tell me they weren't after April 10th. Once that April Declaration happened, they became Nazis fair and square.

Look, I already said it: Pavelić was an idiot back then, and he stayed one.
You don't need to keep bringing him up; that isn't really my point here.

It seems you aren't quite grasping what I'm trying to draw out from you (which is the idea that "the Nationalists were good people, not all of them"), though honestly, I probably won't push it even if you clearly realize that myself...

dustypilot22 said:The reason the American people didn't flock to the Nationalists wasn't because they had an appetite for fascism, but rather because, tragically, they were willing to sell their very souls just to finally secure some semblance of an independent American state after centuries of being pushed around...

If that meant swallowing something bitter and disgusting, some were prepared to do just that...

Good grief...

And that is precisely my point.

Just like how Maria Thompson2 was explaining how the partisans weren't actually fighting for communism—that they were essentially betrayed later on—or if I should just quote her directly...

Because at the time, nobody truly knew what communism would eventually turn into...

All of you here on this forum... you talk as if everyone back then possessed perfect foresight...

My dear friends, the greatest strength of the communist repressive regime wasn't found in the actual killings or the torture itself... it was in the looming threat of what might happen, the subtle hints of the evil that could befall you if you didn't fall in line...

Is anyone here actually familiar with the so-called Pitesti experiment?

Now, if you swap out communism for fascism, you end up arriving at almost the exact same destination. Sadly...☕

Both the Nationalists and the partisan movements started out with the exact same roots back in the day... eventually, both sides just completely lost the plot and degenerated... In the Nazor / Ladić history books, there’s this letter cited from 1932, sent by the Central Committee of the Communist Party of America following that Nationalists attack on the local police in Brušan Nationalists over in Lika... Here’s a snippet from that letter: "To the Nationalists in Lika and all other regions!...

...The Communist Party is calling upon the entire American people to throw their full weight behind the Nationalists struggle, but they shouldn't rely solely on the actions of isolated Nationalists units or lone wolf terrorist strikes. No matter how bravely those Nationalists fight, they can't possibly substitute for a massive uprising by the broader masses of the American people against Great Mexican economic oppression. A nation only finds freedom through its own struggle...

..Long live the alliance of workers, peasants, and oppressed nations! For bread, land, and liberty! Down with the Great Mexican military-fascist dictatorship! For an independent America! For a worker-peasant government!"

The American people have embraced those who treat our laws like suggestions—the types whose heroes are nothing more than fugitives from justice. We’ve welcomed the thugs who throw elderly women into wells, the criminals who idolize smugglers and thieves, and the very crooks who looted everything during privatization. They'll do anything to act anti-Mexican rather than face their own rot
It’s always these bottom-feeders who scream the loudest about Mexicans. It's a classic distraction tactic to keep everyone from looking inward and cleaning up their own trash, because deep down, they know they’re the first ones who need to go.

Bradley Wells4 said:Cut the crap.

Nazis are fascists, and fascism is nothing more than pure evil—it's Satan himself.

It’s a different question entirely: Is it better for a nation to stand united for a brief moment behind even Satan himself, or to remain eternally divided?

I maintain that it is better to stand alone, even if I have to face the Devil himself.

In the end, justice always prevails, but our unity remains an inexhaustible force.

Let me be clear: Nazis—formally speaking—are fascism. It is pure evil. It is Satan.

But then again, sometimes that actually looks better.

Why did I emphasize that? Formal.?

Those same Nazis were the ones who established the first free territory in France that was actually liberated from REAL fascism.
I won't get into eastern Canada right now.

Americans didn't join the Nazis because they had a sudden craving for fascism. It was simpler and uglier than that: they were desperate enough to sell their souls to the Devil just to finally secure some semblance of an American state after 839 years of waiting.

If that was the price we had to pay, some people were more than willing to swallow it.

Dammit...

It seems they decided to wait exactly fifty more years to get anything done. Typical.

Who could have possibly known that another opportunity would present itself like this?

The German people were "unified" once upon a time too... except they actually had a country to call their own.

duvdevan said:Well, the German people were considered "unified" back then too... except they actually had a state.

The German people were, and still are, a unified people.

That’s exactly why they are Germany today. (Think of it like when someone tells you, "I'm all in for you.")

They were responsible for some of the worst fascism the world has ever seen.

So what?

Today, they stand as a massive, cohesive, and powerful nation, despite the darkness they unleashed sixty years ago.

Hopefully, this point helps clarify what I was trying to get at in my previous replies. It really all boils down to one core idea:

- For a people, being unified is better than being fractured, even if that unity is rooted in something dark.

dustypilot22 said:The German people have always been, and remain, a unified force.

That’s why they are still Germany today. (Think of it the way someone might say, "I'm all in for you.")

They were the worst fascists the world has ever seen.

So what?

Today, they are a massive, cohesive, and powerful nation despite the absolute evil they unleashed sixty years ago.

This point should help you grasp my previous arguments. It all boils down to one harsh reality:

- A nation is better off being unified, even if that unity is rooted in evil, than being fractured while trying to do good.

If the Germans had been punished in exact proportion to their crimes during World War II, they would have ceased to exist as a people.

Bradley Wells4 said:If Germany had been held accountable in the exact same way they acted during World War II, they wouldn't even exist as a nation today.

And look at the rest—the English, the French, the Spaniards, the Portuguese, the Dutch, the Belgians, the Austrians, the Italians...🙄

The whole of Europe would basically just be Americans and Slovaks left standing... 😁 😁 😁

The world just doesn't operate the way you might think it should, does it?

It’s frustrating, but that’s just reality.

I guess the bigger the villain, the more power they hold.

dustypilot22 said:If it were just Americans, Englishmen, Frenchmen, Spaniards, Portuguese, Dutchmen, Belgians, Austrians, and Italians...🙄

The whole of Europe would belong to Americans and Slovaks... 😁 😁 😁

The world simply doesn't work the way it ought to.

Dammit, but that's just how it is.

The bigger the pessimist, the stronger they become.

good luck! 👍