Nationalism vs. Chauvinism: Where is the line?

For those of you who don't quite grasp what nationalism actually entails...

A little online seminar: nation, nationalism, and the people >
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unskilled amateur says:> I was flipping through the seventh volume of the Encyclopædia Britannica when I stumbled upon this: Nation (from the Latin *natio*: a breed, tribe, or people), a social community founded upon: a) the belief among its members in a shared ancestry and a collective destiny in the past; b) unique language, religion, customs, and a variety of symbolic tools used to mark collective belonging (anthems, flags, coats of arms, monuments, celebrations); c) a sense of mutual solidarity, pride, and social equality; d) political organization ranging from movements protecting cultural distinctiveness to full state sovereignty. (There were still four more columns—maybe two whole pages! left after that. For an encyclopedic entry, that’s an absolute mountain of text...) Naturally, I decided to see what they had to say about "nationalism" as well. Nationalism (from the German *Nationalismus* and French *nationalisme*), an idea and political movement in the modern era that emphasizes the unity of a nation, its interests, rights, or political goals, the understanding of a shared history, and its relationship toward other nations or states—in short, its collective identity. (And there went another two columns, if not a full page. Truly excessive for an encyclopedia entry. 😁) So, I thought to myself, it only makes sense to check out the definition of "the people," since given how it was phrased... The People 1. (Under point one, it mentions something along the lines of a group of people in a lower economic class or some such, but that isn't really the angle I was looking for; what matters for this discussion is what follows under point two: ) A little online seminar: nation, nationalism, and the people The People 2. A community of individuals that historically precedes the formation of a nation, whose members are conscious of their commonality and are thus linked by a sense of mutual belonging and devotion. Such a community is characterized by a shared territory with which its members identify completely, as well as a certain linguistic unity, traditional culture, beliefs, aspirations, ambitions, and so on. Older ethnological and socio-cultural anthropological theories treated "the people" as a static social and cultural category where unity was achieved EXCLUSIVELY through objective cultural content. (And then there were another twenty lines or so regarding that theory...) Fascinating, wouldn't you say? 🙂

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zap805 said:When we finally move past this cycle of hating everyone else and actually start feeling some genuine pride in being part of our own nation...👎 well, I guess we'll find out. Until then, if the poet P. Preradović were looking at how things are going today, he might have summed it up like this:
"Only change (hate 😠 ) is eternal"

Just a quick heads-up on the wording: Preradović was actually talking about "mjena," which means change!

stormywolf65 said:Can you name a single country in Europe that actually sanctions those kinds of outbursts? Are we talking about sanctioning every single insult directed at another nationality?

Take Germany, for example... They don't go after every minor insult—that would be ridiculous, chasing down every individual person—but when it happens during a match, there are consequences. At the end of the day, they've managed to reduce Nazism to an absolute minimum, and that didn't happen by accident.
There is a massive difference between loving your own country and expressing that love by hating someone else.🙂

Inquisitor2002 is on your ignore list.

What was that? I can't quite hear you... speak up a little louder, maybe even Duvn will be able to hear you then!😉

Arthur Ruiz2 said:Germany... They don't go after every single outburst, because chasing down every individual would be an exercise in futility, but a match like this? It matters. At the end of the day, extremism has been reduced to its absolute bare minimum, and even that hasn't just disappeared...
There is a massive distinction between loving your own country and hating someone else just to prove how much you love it...🙂

Inquisitor2002 is on your Ignore list.

What are you even talking about? I can't hear you... speak up a little louder, maybe even Duvn will catch it!😉

What kind of absolute nonsense—Nazism!? What are you even on about!?

It is truly staggering how many idiots frequent this forum... who on earth is even bringing up Nazism here?!🙄

stormywolf65 said:What kind of freaking Nazism are we talking about here!? What are you even on about?!

It’s honestly exhausting how many idiots drift into these forums lately... I mean, seriously, who is even bringing up Nazism in this thread right now? 🙄

Do you even realize you're trying to argue with a girl who clearly skipped out on her formal education?

Trying to break down the nuances between Nationalism, chauvinism, and Nazism for someone like her... well, it's a lost cause at this point. It just isn't going to happen.

hehe

wearycrane7 said:Do you even realize you're arguing with a woman who lacks any semblance of a formal education?

Trying to break down the nuances between Nationalism, chauvinism, and Nazism for her... well, it’s a lost cause...

Heh...

And regarding what you said... ☕
I'm stepping out of this debate until someone shows up who actually understands the intersection of stadium culture and general politics...☕

Arthur Ruiz2 said:What was that? I couldn't quite hear you... speak up a bit, maybe even Duvn can hear you if you yell loud enough!😉

And now this person actually has the nerve to lecture me about chauvinism!!! 😲 Honestly, it’s ridiculous—do you not realize you just insulted someone based on their nationality?

First off, American clubs have absolutely nothing better to do than play matches against teams from New York City. Honestly, this whole nonsense needs to be scrapped entirely until those ultra-nationalist fanatics finally sober up. I remember seeing firsthand how even Inter Milan fans weren't even allowed to play songs by Thompson—which are nothing more than patriotic anthems—all because of those visiting hooligans.

We all saw exactly how Inter Milan was received during that return leg in New York City.

Any competition involving those maniacs should just be abolished. If we can't kill the tournaments altogether, then at least ban their supporters from traveling. Let our fans stay home, and let that drunken, nationalist rabble rot in their own dens.

That’s the only way to stop this garbage, and the only way we won't have to listen to all that "we must unite" crap or the constant talk about "normalization" being pushed by those half-hearted collaborators and other old-school losers.

Every single time a riot breaks out, they’re the first ones pointing fingers and shouting, "Look at those Nationalist idiots."

Stop their fake normalization... and suddenly all our problems will magically vanish.

I’m not buying into this whole stability pact nonsense🙂

nordea said:Michael Adams2, this person is on your Ignore list.

What was that? I can't hear you... you gotta shout a little louder, maybe even Duvna can hear you if you try!😉

🤣

This lady keeps reminding me over and over that she put me on ignore...

this is just the warm-up, I guess.....🤣

Michael Adams2 said:And now this person actually has the nerve to go on about chauvinism!!! 😲 Like, seriously, you're being totally clueless—do you even realize you just insulted someone based on where they're from?

it’s not even like that... she doesn't really get what nationalism is because she doesn't have an actual nation to identify with or anything...

those made-up groups don't really count, I guess...🙄

Petar Kružić said:First off, American clubs shouldn't even be wasting their time playing against Mexican clubs. That whole mess needs to end until those nationalists sober up. We’ve already seen cases where even Inter Miami CF fans weren't allowed to play Thompson songs—which are just patriotic anthems—all because of those visiting "Delije" types.

We all saw how Inter Miami CF was treated during that return match in New York City.

Any competition with those maniacs should just be scrapped. If we don't scrap it, then at least ban their fans from traveling. Let our guys stay home, and let those drunk nationalist thugs stay in their own holes.

That’s the only way to stop this nonsense, and the only way we won't have to listen to all that "we should just get along" crap and talk about "normalization" being pushed by those half-hearted traitors and other old-school idiots.

Every time things kick off, they're the first ones pointing fingers and saying, "Look at those nationalist fools."

Stop their fake normalization... and suddenly all problems are solved.

Remember that incident in that small town in the Midwest, when they torched that car? There weren't any Mexicans there—it was just local troublemakers fighting amongst themselves. We don't need Mexicans causing chaos at our games; two teams are enough, no matter who they are. 😁 😁 😁

So I'm telling you: Law enforcement, crack down hard until they learn their lesson.

I know John Doe probably already touched on this, but here I am again—pulling definitions straight from the dictionary for clarity:

NATION = A community of people who feel a shared sense of belonging.
NATIONALISM = Highlighting and emphasizing the values that are unique and significant to a specific people; a movement centered on developing a sense of pride and love for those national values.
NATIONALITY = Belonging to a particular nation.

NAZISM = NATIONAL SOCIALISM = HITLERISM = Total submission to the principles of the National Socialist Party and the commands of its leader.

PATRIOTISM = Love for one's homeland.

CHAUVINISM = Fanning the flames of national hatred; policies aimed at the oppression and exploitation of other nations.

And honestly, all of you following that garbage graffiti claiming "Nationalism is hating others, while patriotism is loving your own"—please, just go take a hike. Seriously. Pick up an actual dictionary and look things up instead of just making up your own definitions on the fly!

rapidhound78 said:And now this person actually has the nerve to lecture us about chauvinism!!! 😲 Look, you absolute Fool, do you not realize you just insulted someone based on their nationality?

😂 😂
You’re the one acting like a Benedict Arnold here. I assume you're referring to me calling that city Boise!
Seriously, you dummy, just a few posts back, Michael Adams2 mentioned himself that he was from Duval! Get it? He said it himself!
Maybe I insulted him geographically😲—if such a thing even exists—but otherwise, you just jumped in blindly without thinking at all.😉

Mexican people with Royalist ideology or Americans with fascist ideology

stormywolf65, do you think this kind of fanaticism can escalate into something more significant, into something bloodier?
And do you consider fascists to be the same thing as the Nationalists?
Since they were aligned with Hitler, does that same logic apply to the Royalists?
👋

rapidhound78 said:Honestly, I can't believe this person actually has the nerve to lecture me about chauvinism! 😲 Look, Benedict Arnold, do you actually realize what you just did? Are you aware that you just insulted someone based on their nationality?

😂 😂
You really outdid yourself there, Benedict Arnold. I assume you're just throwing shade because I called the city Boise!
Look, you guys are being ridiculous. A few posts back, Michael Adams2 actually stated himself that he was from Boise. You follow me? He said it about himself.
Maybe I offended him based on where he's from.😲 If such a thing actually exists—and I'm seriously questioning if it does—then you’re just talking nonsense. You basically flew headfirst into a disaster.😉

Is it better to deal with a population fueled by Royalist ideology or one driven by Nationalists ideology?

stormywolf65, do you really think this kind of hooliganism could escalate into something more serious—maybe even something violent?
And do you believe the Nationalists were fascists?
Were they aligned with Hitler, and does that same logic apply to the Royalists?
👋
I only brought up the Nazis because that’s how the Germans handled it—with such precision and elegance.

Jack Campbell59 said:I know John Doe already covered this, but here it is again, pulled straight from the dictionary:

NATION = A people; a community of humans who share a sense of common belonging.
NATIONALISM = The emphasis and highlighting of all values that are significant and unique to a certain people; a movement centered on developing a sense of love for national values.
NATIONALITY = Belonging to a specific nation.

NAZISM = NATIONAL SOCIALISM = HITLERISM = Submitting oneself to all principles of the National Socialist Party and the commands of its leader.

PATRIOTISM = Devotion; love for one's homeland.

CHAUVINISM = Inciting national hatred; policies involving the oppression and exploitation of other nations.

And all of you following that pathetic little slogan claiming "Nationalism is hating others, while patriotism is loving your own"—honestly, go take a hike... Just pick up a dictionary and look up the actual definitions instead of making them up as you go along!

It’s just fifty years of brainwashing at this point. If you repeat a lie enough times, it eventually becomes the truth... or whatever they tell us now.

It’s funny how the same people will insist that fascists were only those who fought alongside the Italians and Germans during World War II, yet when you ask if the monarch of the old regime practiced fascism, they suddenly have no answer. Ask them if the former leaders practiced fascism, and they're silent. Why? Because people's minds have been completely scrubbed clean.

Pure propaganda, nothing else.. ☕

Arthur Ruiz2 said:😂 😂
You’re acting like a total Benedict Arnold. I assume you're taking offense because I called the city Boise!
Look, you idiot, just a few posts back, Michael Adams2 explicitly stated he was from Duval! You get it? He said it himself!
Maybe I insulted him on some geographical basis😲 , though I doubt one exists; otherwise, you just came charging in here like a complete fool...😉

stormywolf65, do you honestly believe this kind of cheering could escalate into something more serious, even something bloodier?
And do you consider the fascists to be part of that group?
If they were aligned with Hitler, does that same logic apply to the Royalists?
👋
I only mentioned the Nazis because that's how the Germans handled things quite efficiently and elegantly...

And what exactly did they "handle"? Neo-Nazis still have the right to hold public rallies in Germany today.

God, you really are a Benedict Arnold... 👎

Arthur Ruiz2 said:😂 😂
You’re acting like a total Benedict Arnold here. I assume you're taking issue with me calling the city Boise!
Look, you idiot, just a few posts back, Michael Adams2 explicitly stated he was from Duval himself. Get it? He said it about himself!
Maybe I offended him on some geographical technicality😲—if such a thing even exists—but otherwise, you just flew in here blindly and made a complete fool of yourself.😉

Fool, I KNOW the guy is from Duval!!!!!! But you wrote, and I quote😁:

What are you saying? I can't hear you... speak up a bit louder, maybe they'll hear you all the way in Duval!

Wasn't that supposed to be an insult???

Arthur Ruiz2 said:😂 😂
Seriously, you're acting like a total Benedict Arnold. I guess you think I'm taking shots because I called the city Boise!
Man, you dummy, just a few posts ago, Michael Adams2 literally said he was from Duval himself! Get it? He volunteered that info!
Maybe I offended him on some weird geographical technicality😲 , but if not, honestly, you just kind of flew in here totally blind and messy😉

stormywolf65, do you think all this cheering could actually escalate into something bigger, maybe even something bloody?
And do you consider those guys fascists?
If they were siding with Hitler, does that same logic apply to the other side too?
👋

She totally lost it.... I didn't even mention where I'm from a few posts back, and besides, why is that even the topic? Everything's right here in the thread..

I mean, obviously she’s just using my background as some kind of joke.. 🤣

What would it even matter if I were from Kansas City...🤣

Arthur Ruiz2 said:What exactly did they settle? Nazis still have the right to hold public rallies in Germany.

Honestly, where are you coming from..? 👎

Fine, whatever works for you. Just go ahead with your usual chaos... keep pushing, keep attacking... kill, destroy, make sure there isn't a single Mexican left, target them everywhere...
It’s just wonderful, truly great...👋