Would young people still want to move abroad today?

To give you a concrete example: I have friends living in southern Austria. He’s a Democratic Party member working in civil service, and she’s a factory worker. They completely renovated an old house he inherited, they drive two mid-range cars, they spend three weeks a year on the coast, and every couple of years they take a trip somewhere like Australia.

Yet, I can't think of many working-class families in America who live quite like that.

Second example: consider a chief medical officer, a PhD surgeon specializing in open-heart surgery—in America, there are perhaps $3.25 such people (assuming they aren't also teaching at a university or pulling extra overtime). How many of those exist in a place like, say, Chicago?

Third example: I was recently offered a position at a prestigious American legal institute—the pay is $1.50 (though if a permanent role opened up after my doctorate, it would be $1.75).

Try to find me a leading legal institute in Germany, the Netherlands, Sweden, the USA, or elsewhere where a researcher earns less than a local tram driver in the same city. That is precisely why I am so eager to leave—even though I earn a decent living here in America—because I could actually focus on what interests me: scientific research. Instead of grinding away 8 or 9 hours a day in industry just to make ends meet, only to pursue science in my spare time. I sometimes wonder if the reason I wouldn't be accepted by a foreign university might actually be having too many publications—essentially, that I might ruin the department's "low productivity" average.

goldengull3 said:Let's look at a specific case: I have friends living in southern Austria—he’s with the Democratic Party in civil service, she’s a factory worker. They completely renovated an old house he inherited, they drive two mid-range cars, spend three weeks a year by the Atlantic, and every couple of years they take trips to places like Australia.

I don't know many working-class families in America who live quite like that.

It would be more useful to know his approximate monthly net income and the cost of living in Austria, for instance.
Try providing rent prices in somewhere like Vienna or the surrounding area, along with the average salary for that civil service role, so we can actually compare.

And in the US, life is much easier if you inherit a roof over your head.

goldengull3 said:Third example: I was recently offered a position at a prestigious American legal institute—the pay is $1.50 (if a permanent spot opened up after my doctorate, it would be $1.75).

Find me a leading legal institute in Germany, the Netherlands, Sweden, the USA, or similar, where a researcher makes less than a streetcar driver in the same city. That is precisely why I would love to leave—even though I earn well here in America—because I could focus on what actually interests me: scientific research. Instead of working 8-9 hours in the private sector just for the paycheck and trying to squeeze in research during my free time. I also suspect the reason I wouldn't be accepted at some foreign university would be "too many publications"—essentially, that I might skew the department's non-working average.
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You're probably right about the research aspect, but do you have any concrete figures? What is the approximate income for those scientists, and what is the cost of renting in the cities where these institutes are located?

Gary Cox72 said:If you factor in that a decent beer costs about five bucks,...

Sure, this is an outlier phenomenon in developed nations, but I suspect we'll see it here too. Basic necessities remain relatively affordable, while luxury items have skyrocketed. Alcohol, cigarettes—those things are considered luxuries now.

So you have to decide where your money actually goes: on a new sofa or on booze and smokes!

Gary Cox72 said:It would be more useful to know what this Austrian's approximate monthly net income is, alongside the typical cost of living in Austria.
Try providing some rental prices in, say, Austin or the surrounding area, and the average salary within their civil service, so we can actually compare the two.

To be precise, they each earn upwards of $2,000 plus bonuses and a 13th month's pay. She also works an additional job, which adds a few hundred more to the pile.

I am in complete agreement regarding the house—but keep in mind they both invested several tens of thousands of dollars into it.

I am certain I don't need to hand over $0.67 every month toward a mortgage just to have different perspectives on working in America or abroad.

You are likely correct regarding scientific research, but do you have any concrete figures? What is the approximate income for these scientists, and what are the rental costs in the cities where these institutes are located? [/B]

On this note, I once had a conversation with an individual whose education almost mirrored my own—this was prior to my Master's, so as a doctoral student now, I have likely surpassed him. He worked as a civil servant in The Hague and earned roughly $4,500 (I was also a civil servant at the time, earning $1.25). My partner held a standard degree and was earning only $3,000. In my estimation, $7,500 a month is enough for two people to live modestly in Western Europe. I would venture to say it's even better than living on two above-average American salaries.

I also know an acquaintance who recently moved to the States; her gross income is north of $120,000, which translates to about $70,000 net annually. One can certainly make a living in the US on that. Back in the American civil service, with her qualifications, she would currently be making $1.00. 🙂

goldengull3 said:Specifically, they all make over $2,000 plus benefits and a 13th check. She picks up extra shifts, so she nets a few hundred more.

I completely agree regarding the house—but then again, they put down tens of thousands of dollars of their own money.

I’m certain I don't need to be shelling out $0.67 monthly for a mortgage (my share) to have a different perspective on working in America versus abroad.

I suspect those Austrians you mentioned earn well above the average in Austria. That comparison works, sure, but then they should be compared to a couple in the US earning between $7,000 and $2.75 each month, rather than what we discussed regarding $1.75.

We still haven't seen what rent would actually cost in Vienna or Austin to compare it against the price of something similar in, say, Washington, D.C. or Cleveland.

You claim you'd view life in America differently if you didn't have $0.67 monthly for a mortgage. What would that mortgage payment look like for the exact same thing in Austria? I assume we're talking about an apartment.

goldengull3 said:Look, I spoke once with someone whose education was almost identical to mine (just before my Master's, so as a PhD student, I've likely surpassed him by now). He worked as a civil servant in The Hague and earned about $4,500 (I was also a civil servant at the time, making $1.25). My girlfriend had a standard college degree and earned only $3,000. I think $7,500 a month is enough for two people to live modestly in Western Europe. I'd go as far as saying it's better than living on two above-average American salaries.

I also know someone who recently moved to the US with a gross salary north of $120,000, which works out to roughly $70,000 net annually. I believe one can survive on that in the States as well. In the American civil service, with her qualifications, she would currently be making $1.00. 🙂

The cases you cited are massive outliers compared to both European and US averages.
Granted, I could agree that moving abroad offers greater opportunities due to market size. Certain things that simply aren't possible here are indeed achievable there.

But that $120,000 figure is, for example, what a top-tier software developer makes; it deviates sharply from the American average. How many of those exist compared to the norm, and do you really think the majority of our young people heading abroad hit those numbers immediately—or ever?

Gary Cox72 said:The specific examples you mentioned are massive outliers compared to both the European Union and the US averages.
One could argue that moving abroad offers more opportunities simply due to market scale. There are certain professional milestones that remain out of reach here, yet are entirely attainable over there.

But that $120,000 figure, for instance, represents a top-tier software developer; it sits far above the American average. How many individuals actually hit those numbers compared to the median, and do you honestly believe the majority of our young people heading abroad will secure those salaries immediately—or ever?

Look, my friend—averages hold zero interest for me. I am concerned with finding a place where high-level work meets high-level compensation. Even here, I pull in roughly $2,500 a month when I factor in my various consulting fees and such.

Do you truly believe a leading German journal in a well-funded field would pay me $300 for two articles, or that one of the top three journals in the country would pay me $333 for an original scientific paper? Or that, as a doctoral candidate, I’d be offered a position at a premier institution for a salary that is merely 10% higher than the national average?

People abroad live in superior apartments, larger homes, drive better cars, and exist within much more organized societies. They don't have to shell out their own money for journals and books because their universities provide them. Taking a summer or winter vacation is standard practice—something that remains a luxury reserved for a tiny minority here in America. Their GDP is four to five times—that is, 400-500% higher than ours—so, naturally, their quality of life is superior. I was recently speaking with a law professor from Scotland; you can tell just by looking at him that his suit costs more than half of my entire faculty's budget combined.🙂

And, of course, I wouldn't be foolish. I am positioning myself—I've started writing for foreign journals, I'm mastering a second language, and so on. My point stands: averages have never interested me, and they never will.

There is also a vital distinction: abroad, a researcher doesn't face a crisis when requesting $2,000 or $3,000 to travel to two neighboring countries to conduct comparative research for a dissertation. Here, even if I were at a major institute or a university, I would likely have to take personal leave and finance the whole endeavor myself.

Not to mention my colleagues at Rudyard. I am certain that even at the Max Planck Institute and similar establishments, they aren't forced to buy their own experimental materials out of pocket and then smuggle them across borders... 😁

goldengull3 said:Look, friend—I couldn't care less about the average. I care about finding a place where you can actually work hard and earn well. Even here, I bring in about ten thousand dollars a month—counting my freelance fees and such.

Do you honestly think a top-tier German magazine in a high-paying field would pay me $300 for two articles, or that one of the three leading journals in the country would pay me $333 for an original research paper? Or that, as a PhD student, I’d be offered a position at a premier institution with a salary 10% higher than the national average?

People abroad live in better apartments, larger houses, drive nicer cars, and inhabit much more organized countries—plus they don't have to buy their own magazines and books because their universities actually provide them. Taking a summer or winter vacation is just standard practice—something that remains a luxury for only a tiny fraction of people in America. They have a GDP that is four to five times—meaning 400-500% greater—than what we have here; naturally, they live better. I was recently speaking with a Scottish law professor—you can tell by his suit that it costs more than half of my entire faculty combined.🙂

So, you aren't interested in the average—and it's fine to stay quiet about that if you have a positive outlook and are ready to chase the high earnings you described in your examples.

However, I interpreted this thread much more broadly, given the title: "Would young people want to move abroad today?" I don't think I misunderstood; I think it's worth discussing things that interest the majority, rather than focusing exclusively on overachieving individuals.

Not everyone is exceptional like you—or even considers themselves to be—but I don't think it's objective to weigh the possibility of moving abroad by citing only ultra-successful cases. Those people represent a tiny percentage everywhere in the world, and using them as the sole metric tends to exaggerate the quality of life overseas.

Besides, quality of life isn't just about income; it's about the cost of living required to maintain a decent lifestyle in a specific place. You didn't mention those figures, and believe me, they are vital if we want to have a real discussion. Life isn't built solely on earnings.

I'm not saying the standard of living isn't higher elsewhere; I'm saying things are shifting. It isn't the same as it was five years ago—let alone ten or more. Someone who has managed to achieve something here should probably pack their bags and head out before making such a move.

And trust me, abroad, success doesn't come to those who can't sell themselves or push through. I say that from actual experience living there—even here, you can feel who is enterprising, and no government is going to hand you anything just for showing up.

After all, how is it that in that organized West—where you already know certain successful people and see how much is invested in science—you can't find a high-paying position that provides a high quality of life?

I hope you don't take that last sentence as a provocation—that isn't my intent. I am simply curious, as it could serve as another argument within this thread. It’s interesting to read about how difficult or easy it is to move abroad these days, and that kind of "effort" shouldn't be dismissed when weighing whether leaving is actually worth it.

Gary Cox72 said:Anyway, how is it that in such a developed West—where you already know certain successful people and see how much is invested in science—you can't find a high-paying position that provides a high quality of life?

I hope you don't take this last sentence as a provocation; that isn't my intention. I am merely curious, as this could serve as another argument within this thread. It is interesting to read about how difficult or easy it is to move abroad these days, and such an "effort" shouldn't be dismissed when considering whether moving is actually worth it.

I agree that it’s no longer worth going blindly—unless you are completely unemployed with nothing to lose, or perhaps a specialized welder who can pull in $4,000 abroad doing work that pays $1.50 here (welding ship sections, which is easily one of the worst jobs imaginable).

That is why I am focusing on my education and waiting for the right opening—for instance, first breaking into a foreign corporation here, proving my worth, and then waiting for them to call me. A colleague of mine did exactly that; she currently earns $120,000. She joined a foreign firm in $1.75, worked her way up to $5.00 over four years, and eventually—they called her to work overseas. It would have been much harder if she had just moved to the USA immediately and said, "Here I am."

But, as I mentioned, my motivation is the prospect of living a normal life pursuing science—something that is a bit more difficult to achieve in America.

Benjamin Ramos95 said:Look, I’m not buying into that nonsense! If things were actually better over there, every single American would be flocking to the States 😁 to enjoy the high standard of living, those massive salaries, luxury apartments, and driving a Ford—things we Americans pay for upfront in cash, obviously. 😂

The majority of Americans living in Canada can’t even afford a single trip back to the States for a summer vacation. For a family of four, tickets during peak season would run you about five thousand dollars. Then you’ve got food, drinks, clothes, plus whatever gifts you need to bring back for everyone... it all goes straight down the drain.

So, a three-week stay with all expenses included would end up costing somewhere around fifteen thousand dollars. And that's not counting money they've earned—that's pure savings.

Once you handle the mortgage, car payments, cable, satellite, internet, cell phone, electricity, gas, insurance, and taxes, there isn't much left.

With the houses they own here, they could technically buy a place in the States, but most people just don't have the credentials. They’re either working construction and making decent money, or they're at Ford, or some obscure little company for peanuts (though at least they get a pension)...

As for the ones who actually made it—you know, scientists, managers, business owners—the idea of moving to the States doesn't even cross their minds. But then again, the States aren't far for them. It's just that there are very few of them.

goldengull3, I wish you the best of luck; I truly hope you reach all your goals. It would be a damn shame, though, to see someone of your caliber head out West only to end up working some dead-end, bottom-of-the-barrel job. You wouldn't be the first one to fall into that trap.

Andrew Richardson8 said:The majority of Americans living in Canada just can't swing a summer trip back home. For a family of four, tickets during peak season would run you about five thousand dollars. Then you have to factor in food, drinks, clothes, and those little souvenirs you pick up for everyone back home, which honestly feels like throwing money down the drain.

So, if you're looking at a three-week stay with everything included, you're looking at roughly fifteen thousand dollars. And we aren't talking about money you've earned; we're talking about savings.

Once you settle the mortgage, car payments, cable, satellite, internet, cell phone, electricity, gas, insurance, and taxes, there isn't much left over.

With the houses they own here, they could technically afford to buy a place back home, but let's be real—most people don't have that kind of flexibility. They're either working hard in construction making decent money, or they're at a Ford plant, or maybe some obscure little company where the pay is slim (though the pension might help out a bit)...

As for those who actually made it big—you know, the scientists, managers, business owners, and team leads—it doesn't really cross their minds to go back. But then again, it's not like the US is far from them, and frankly, there aren't many of them.

Well, that's just how it goes, right? You get what you work for. Many people moved away, bought houses and cars on credit, and ultimately decided to stay put. I've read in diaspora forums that quite a few tried moving back, but they ended up heading straight back to their lives in Canada, the USA, or Germany before they knew it.

I could've moved to Switzerland to be with my old man if I’d been smarter instead of wasting my time just spinning my wheels. Back when the war was happening, I really wanted to leave, but I didn't have anyone waiting for me there. Now that I've got my own business, I just don't feel like it. I'm doing fine right here.

goldengull3 said:Specifically, everyone earns over $2,200 plus vacation pay and a 13th check. She also works a side gig, so she pulls in a few extra hundred bucks.

I actually chatted with someone once who had almost the exact same education as mine—just before I finished my Master's (so as a PhD student now, I've probably passed him). He was working as a civil servant in The Hague making about $4,900. At the time, I was also a civil servant earning $1.25. My girlfriend had a standard Bachelor's degree back then and was making about $3,250. Honestly, I think $8,100 a month is enough for two people to live modestly in Western Europe. I’d even go as far as saying that's better than two above-average American salaries.

I also know an acquaintance who recently moved to the States; her gross is just over $120,000, which works out to roughly $70,000 net per year. You can definitely make a life with that in the US. Back in the American civil service, with her credentials, she would be making $1.00 right now. 🙂

Not sure if you're talking gross or net income here.

Claiming a factory worker in Austria makes $2,200 net is straight-up science fiction, especially since taxes and social security are sky-high back home.
But hey, at least they get 14 paychecks a year by law.

And that idea of living decently on $8,100? That's wishful thinking.

coastalbison6 said:I am not quite sure if you are referring to gross or net income.

A net salary of $2,200 for a factory worker in Austria sounds like pure science fiction, especially considering how dizzyingly high taxes and social security contributions are back home in the States.
However, they do guarantee 14 monthly paychecks by law.

And this idea that you need $8,000 for a decent lifestyle is nothing more than a fairy tale.

I am talking about net amounts including various stipends. In essence, while this worker's base pay might have been slightly lower, they receive additional compensation for shift work, extra pay for weekends, and overtime. Just try to find a factory worker or a retail clerk here in America who actually gets paid for every single hour of overtime or weekend shifts... Walk into any local shop and ask.

You make a fair point—if she worked strictly 40 hours a week, the take-home would be less. But she is still in a vastly superior position compared to a Democratic Party employee working in America.

As for that $8,000 figure, I wonder what amount you believe constitutes a "decent" life?

I looked up the salaries for officials in international organizations online, and they aligned perfectly with what was stated. If an American Democratic Party employee working for the United Nations used to pull in over $2,200 a month (in the past, before most of those organizations relocated), then $4,800 for highly qualified personnel is hardly an exaggeration.

Ehhh, we're finally getting closer to reality here
She’d have to work her tail off and pull some serious overtime just to clear $2,000 net.
Turns out that's actually the standard, and honestly, $4,000 for a couple is more than fair.
I'm pretty sure more than 80% of people in Austria don't even touch that kind of money.

As for those international organizations, they're a whole different world—you can't compare them to regular folks.
The EU definitely pays well, but you really only see those numbers if you're in a high-level position with all the extra perks for expats.

And the UN pays on an American system, which means you still have to deal with taxes and there's no pension...

coastalbison6 said:Ehhh, we’re finally getting closer to the truth.
She’ll have to work herself to the bone just to clear $2,000 net.
It turns out this is simply the standard. Even at $4,000 for the both of us, I’d say we're looking at more than enough to cover our needs.
I am firmly convinced that more than 80% of people in Austria fail to even reach that figure.

Look, I’m not going to sit here and play the cynic regarding how Democratic Party lackeys run companies in America—they love to complain about everything. If someone puts in extra hours, they should be compensated for it, which is more than most American workers can ever hope for. Her relationship with her employer is perfectly fine, her salary is quite respectable, and honestly, she and her partner were able to spend three weeks vacationing in Australia last year. Just try me: find me one American worker on an assembly line or behind a grocery counter who actually gets to stroll through Australia during their time off. Go ahead, see if you can find just one.

International organizations exist in an entirely different stratosphere; you simply cannot compare them to ordinary mortals.
The salaries at the European Union are undeniably substantial, but let’s be realistic about the math. You aren't going to see those kinds of numbers unless you've climbed your way into a high-level executive role or secured a position that comes with various cost-of-living adjustments for expats. It's not exactly easy money for the rank and file.

Why wouldn't I? When I'm out there hunting for a new role, I’m looking at places where the salaries are double the national average. It seems rather shortsighted to waste my breath searching in regions where the pay scales sit well below the mean.

The UN operates on an American-style system, which essentially means you’re just paying more taxes only to find out there isn't even a pension waiting for you at the end.

Once you've settled your taxes, you're eligible for a basic UN pension after five years.

In certain agencies where contracts are on a shorter leash, you're actually required to pay into a life insurance policy. It’s a bit of a racket, really. Still, you generally end up better off than my father was; they calculated his Social Security benefits at a rate that was nothing short of insulting. $0.90 After forty years on the clock, having spent my career navigating the halls of some relatively reputable corporations...

And I’m sure you’ll fare better than my aunt, who was practically forced into early disability retirement by the system. $300. 😢

Look, goldengull3, you take two outliers earning way above average in Austria and try to turn that into a universal rule—it just doesn't work that way.
I work for a company where the employees are protected like an endangered species. The lowest-paid worker on my shop floor makes $1500. The highest earner this month pulled in $2833. Now, if some guy—let’s say a Moldovan—tries to have a chat with me about it, I tell him that even our top assembly line worker makes $2833 (for an 8-hour shift across four rotations), and he’ll immediately declare: "Wow, life in America is amazing! Look at that, a worker makes 8,500—imagine what an engineer earns!"
Now, I realize my company is an outlier (and I would never claim that 'average wages in America are $2000' based solely on my firm's data), but the entire value system in the US is so skewed that, as an engineer, I actually pull the average down—mine is $1667, as I already mentioned on the first page. Oh, and sure, we have Christmas bonuses ($200) and reimbursement allowances ($400). When our last laborer retired, he received a severance package of $46667, and now pulls in a monthly pension of $1433, which is absolutely extraordinary—not exactly the standard American situation, right?
So, I would be veeeeeery careful about calculating "how great my life would be in Austria" just because some acquaintances of mine over there happen to earn xxx euros a month.

Carl Cox, goldengull3 is totally spot on here.
The guy’s in one of those higher tax brackets, so of course he’s looking at what people in those same pay scales are pulling overseas. But the real kicker isn't the money—it's whether he can actually land a gig paying that much over there.
It’s honestly not even rare to see our engineers heading abroad only to end up working construction or grinding away as machinists or electricians just because they have a degree.

Mark Lee65 said:Carl Cox, goldengull3 makes a valid point.
He falls into a higher income bracket, so naturally, he’s looking at what those high earners make abroad. The real question, however, is whether someone like him can actually land one of those lucrative positions overseas.
It isn't exactly rare to see our engineers working construction sites or acting as machinists or electricians abroad, despite holding university degrees.

Look, unless there is a guaranteed path to a high-level position, I have zero incentive to leave.

If that's not on the table, I’m staying put. Moving abroad just to earn some mediocre salary doesn't make sense given my current income—unless we're talking about a hypothetical career in academia. In that case, I'd be doing what I love, and while the base salary might be modest, there's room for supplemental income.

On the other hand, if I were unemployed with no local prospects, or if the US economy hit a massive recession, then I’d leverage my technical training. I’d look for computer repair work or reach out to a friend working on offshore oil rigs to see if they could pull some strings with their boss.

The reality is quite simple—speaking from my own perspective but applying it generally—nobody is going to convince me that an average Joe in Germany lives the same lifestyle as an average Joe here in America. You only have to look at the cars they drive and where they spend their summers to see the difference.

Furthermore, I believe a few years of international experience benefits everyone, whether it's mastering a language or broadening one's professional horizons. I knew several professors who spent significant portions of their careers abroad, and it clearly had a positive impact on both their teaching and their published work.