A - Austria

Chloe Sullivan88 said:Given that the Austrian ambassador in the United States is constantly talking about media freedom issues over here, I don't see why anyone on this forum shouldn't be allowed to voice their opinion on the electoral process in Austria or any other country.

Besides, in the United States, no fascist could ever pull in as many votes as Hofer did, so I honestly don't get where you're getting this sense of superiority when lecturing local forum users about democracy and all that.

Everyone is entitled to their own take on how elections are run. If someone thinks Hofer was cheated, that is absolutely their right to an opinion.
We aren't exactly going to ban all debate just because we might offend the Austrian diaspora, are we? 🤔

Sorry, but who's even talking about banning anything??? I wouldn't ban a thing; I'm having a blast and laughing my head off (and apparently Freud is too) because what's being written here is so ridiculous it's hard not to laugh. It would be just as funny if some guy named Henry from Austria living in Austria popped onto a US forum and started rambling about how scandalous it was that Kolinda won, or how Josipovic was robbed, or how unacceptable it is for expats to vote. Honestly, I just find it hilarious.
Personally, I think the mail-in ballot method is great. Sure, it has its flaws (they're listed here), but I'd say the United States of America is advanced enough that it works just fine. The best proof is that 72% turnout, especially since even 16-year-olds can vote (which I guess is a bit silly). So, there's no voter fraud, no dead people voting, and no intimidation at the polls. Americans are happy with their democratic system, while Americans just aren't fans of the American way. I mean, how can I not laugh? 😁.

hiddenmarlin14 said:In Pittsburgh voter turnout hit 146.9% 😵 Oh sure, nothing was rigged; everything went strictly by the book 🤣

It’s certainly not the American way... That kind of behavior only seems to happen in fascist-leaning pockets of America or in those brainwashed parts of Florida. 🙄

Nathan Morris3 said:Sorry, but who's even talking about banning anything??? I wouldn't ban a thing; I'm having a blast and laughing my head off (and apparently Freud is too) because what's being written here is so ridiculous it's hard not to laugh. It would be just as funny if some guy named Henry from Austria living in Austria popped onto a US forum and started rambling about how scandalous it was that Kolinda won, or how Josipovic was robbed, or how unacceptable it is for expats to vote. Honestly, I just find it hilarious.
Personally, I think the mail-in ballot method is great. Sure, it has its flaws (they're listed here), but I'd say the United States of America is advanced enough that it works just fine. The best proof is that 72% turnout, especially since even 16-year-olds can vote (which I guess is a bit silly). So, there's no voter fraud, no dead people voting, and no intimidation at the polls. Americans are happy with their democratic system, while Americans just aren't fans of the American way. I mean, how can I not laugh? 😁.

Forgive me, but I think your comparison is a bit off. We are discussing the United States on an American forum. By that logic, Americans should have every right to comment on American politics on their own forums if they want to 🤷 or is this suddenly an American political forum? 😵

hiddenmarlin14 said:Forgive me, but I think your comparison is a bit off. We are discussing the United States on an American forum. By that logic, Americans should have every right to comment on American politics on their own forums if they want to 🤷 or is this suddenly an American political forum? 😵

I mean, whatever. I guess I’d probably laugh even if people were talking about election fraud and conspiracy theories regarding US elections on an Austrian forum. If Americans or even people from the UK discuss US elections, it makes sense because US politics—like who ends up in the White House—basically affects every corner of the globe. On the other hand, I suppose countries like Austria or America aren't quite as influential on that scale. Of course, the greens/leftists are probably thrilled since they finally have a president to cheer for; they haven't really shown that kind of strength before. Same goes for the Republican Party, too, even though they're three times larger than the Greens and lost the election—which, honestly, is still a decent showing for them. People should celebrate, I guess, if they can do it without being obnoxious. But conspiracy theories on a US forum?

I used a Mail-in ballot, and I thought it was actually a pretty good idea, which I mentioned earlier. It seems like nobody here is really looking for a constructive chat or has any actual proof of fraud; most of the criticism just feels like people venting without any logic or evidence behind it. I guess 99% of the issues come from people just not understanding how things work and then spinning a conspiracy theory out of it. For example, it’s almost hard for some folks to grasp that people have set working hours on Sundays and labor laws don't just let them work 24 hours straight to count votes. Sure, it looked a little messy waiting an extra day, and nobody expected it to be such a toss-up, so maybe things will change in the future. Hopefully, Mail-in ballots get replaced by smart cards or online voting eventually instead of using the mail. And I bet even then, plenty of people would still act surprised and claim the US democracy is outdated or full of manipulation. The US definitely has its share of serious problems, but I guess a 72% turnout isn't really a failure—it shows strength, regardless of how much that bothers some people in America.

Can you walk me through how the mail-in ballot process actually works?
I’m just totally lost on the whole thing...

It feels so sketchy that those mail-in ballots aren't even tallied until the day after the election. It just seems like such a huge opening for someone to mess with the numbers. Why can't they just count them at the exact same time as the people showing up at the polling stations?

I was sitting here yesterday wondering what else might pop up in the meantime—and then boom, we hear about some precinct reporting 145% turnout. 😁
Want to bet on how many more irregularities we're going to stumble across? 😉

Nathan Morris3 said:Sorry, but who's even talking about banning anything??? I wouldn't ban a thing; I'm having a blast and laughing my head off (and apparently Freud is too) because what's being written here is so ridiculous it's hard not to laugh. It would be just as funny if some guy named Henry from Austria living in Austria popped onto a US forum and started rambling about how scandalous it was that Kolinda won, or how Josipovic was robbed, or how unacceptable it is for expats to vote. Honestly, I just find it hilarious.
Personally, I think the mail-in ballot method is great. Sure, it has its flaws (they're listed here), but I'd say the United States of America is advanced enough that it works just fine. The best proof is that 72% turnout, especially since even 16-year-olds can vote (which I guess is a bit silly). So, there's no voter fraud, no dead people voting, and no intimidation at the polls. Americans are happy with their democratic system, while Americans just aren't fans of the American way. I mean, how can I not laugh? 😁.

You certainly get worked up the second someone shares an opinion on the American electoral system.

This is a forum for people who know the English language and want to debate everything from U.S. presidential elections and the situation in the Middle East to the Brexit referendum and elections in the United States. We only talk about the United States when there's an election happening.

I have never once seen an expat jump into a thread about the United Kingdom and claim that only Britons are allowed to speak on the matter, or that Americans have no right to question British democracy.

I simply don't see why anyone shouldn't be allowed to question a voting method, regardless of whether they are right or wrong.
Are we going to wait for someone from Saudi Arabia to pop up in a thread about Saudi Arabia and tell us to shut up because Saudis are satisfied with their own system?

There are no dogmas here, period. If you find that funny, fine, but this constant insistence that certain people shouldn't discuss American elections is bizarre for a forum like this.

And let's not forget, we're talking about private individuals. If the American ambassador were unhappy with media freedom in America and meddled in our internal affairs, one might express that dissatisfaction through a protest. Or are you actually suggesting that American diplomats are allowed to interfere in the domestic business of other nations, while forum users shouldn't question American elections on a public platform?

Ugh, seriously, has anyone actually come up with a halfway decent explanation for why the mail-in ballot numbers are such a massive outlier compared to what we saw at the actual polling stations? Like, I mean, really think about it—at the precincts, Hofer pulled in 51%, but then you look at these mail-in ballots and suddenly the guy's sitting at 61%? That’s just... wow. Totally normal, right? Yeah, sure, just a totally "normal" gap.

Chloe Sullivan88 said:You certainly get worked up the second someone shares an opinion on the American electoral system.

This is a forum for people who know the English language and want to debate everything from U.S. presidential elections and the situation in the Middle East to the Brexit referendum and elections in the United States. We only talk about the United States when there's an election happening.

I have never once seen an expat jump into a thread about the United Kingdom and claim that only Britons are allowed to speak on the matter, or that Americans have no right to question British democracy.

I simply don't see why anyone shouldn't be allowed to question a voting method, regardless of whether they are right or wrong.
Are we going to wait for someone from Saudi Arabia to pop up in a thread about Saudi Arabia and tell us to shut up because Saudis are satisfied with their own system?

There are no dogmas here, period. If you find that funny, fine, but this constant insistence that certain people shouldn't discuss American elections is bizarre for a forum like this.

And let's not forget, we're talking about private individuals. If the American ambassador were unhappy with media freedom in America and meddled in our internal affairs, one might express that dissatisfaction through a protest. Or are you actually suggesting that American diplomats are allowed to interfere in the domestic business of other nations, while forum users shouldn't question American elections on a public platform?

I mean, I was actually laughing, honestly. I said the quote was funny, but I guess you misread that as me being upset. I don't see how someone posting conspiracy theories on a random internet forum matters to any Austrian.

People only talk about Austria when there's an election going on.

I've never seen anyone in the UK threads claiming that only Brits are allowed to comment, or that Americans shouldn't question British democracy and stuff like that.

Well, maybe Sigmund Freud and I are just trying to correct some wrong info where we can, but if people don't want to listen, there isn't really any argument or explanation that helps. It seems like instead of asking questions or looking things up, people just hear a tiny snippet of info and immediately build this whole conspiracy theory without even bothering to Google it. It's not really a mindset for having a decent conversation. Some folks would rather just cook up a theory about "expats" manipulating votes or "lazy" Austrians who won't walk to the polls... I guess it's hard not to laugh at that.

I just don't see why anyone couldn't question the way voting works, even if they aren't right.

Mail-in ballots seem to be more popular among educated, urban crowds. Looking at the results, it’s pretty clear there will always be some friction or misunderstanding regarding the specific method used. But I guess those issues are solved by getting facts, not by spreading misinformation or conspiracies. Maybe users feel better after calling things out like that, but it doesn't really help the discussion.

Will someone from Saudi Arabia show up in the Saudi threads and tell us what to say, just because Saudis are happy with their own voting system?

I think there should always be room for discussion, whether it's a Saudi, an Austrian, or an American. But just attacking something without even trying to understand it—that's just being destructive, I guess.

There are no dogmas, period. If you find it funny, fine, but constantly bringing up who on this forum is allowed to discuss Austrian elections feels pretty weird.

And let's not forget, we're talking about private citizens here. The Austrian ambassador isn't exactly thrilled with media freedom in America and sticks his nose into American internal affairs, so maybe people could express that dissatisfaction through a protest or something. Or are you suggesting that while diplomats can meddle in America's business, forum users shouldn't be allowed to question Austrian elections?

Look, we're just hanging out on a forum here, not sitting in high-level diplomatic summits. Since both Austria and America are part of the UN and the EU, sovereignty isn't exactly an absolute thing, and "internal affairs" can be a bit blurry. Politics works in its own way, I guess. If one UN member decides to get involved to help boost media freedom or democracy in another member state, that’s just diplomacy—it seems fine to me, as long as they're using constructive methods rather than being destructive. Now, if someone were trying to interfere to trigger a coup or topple a democratically elected president, then yeah, that's definitely not okay. So, I don't really see the point in trying to derail this whole conversation by bringing up the Austrian ambassador.

Brenda Taylor13 said:Ugh, seriously, has anyone actually come up with a halfway decent explanation for why the mail-in ballot numbers are such a massive outlier compared to what we saw at the actual polling stations? Like, I mean, really think about it—at the precincts, Hofer pulled in 51%, but then you look at these mail-in ballots and suddenly the guy's sitting at 61%? That’s just... wow. Totally normal, right? Yeah, sure, just a totally "normal" gap.

Well, why wouldn't it be normal? I guess people with multiple addresses, folks who travel, or those who aren't quite sure where they'll be in eight weeks... maybe those are just more likely to vote for VDB. And honestly, the in-person turnout isn't any less legitimate than the Mail-in ballot counts. A vote is a vote, I suppose, and if there wasn't any tampering, then it's all valid. As for whether things were rigged, I guess the FPÖ delegates would know much more efficiently than some random people on a forum. Maybe we should just wait and see if any major issues pop up, or if everything went by the book and we can all just sleep easy here in the States.

Mark Harris66 said:Can you walk me through how the mail-in ballot process actually works?
I’m just totally lost on the whole thing...

It feels so sketchy that those mail-in ballots aren't even tallied until the day after the election. It just seems like such a huge opening for someone to mess with the numbers. Why can't they just count them at the exact same time as the people showing up at the polling stations?

I was sitting here yesterday wondering what else might pop up in the meantime—and then boom, we hear about some precinct reporting 145% turnout. 😁
Want to bet on how many more irregularities we're going to stumble across? 😉

Oh, thank God someone finally asked!

https://www.help.gv.at/Portal.Node/h...te.320540.html

Basically, about 8 weeks (!) before the first round, you have to decide if you want to vote by mail or show up at the polls. If you go with mail-in, you request it online, get an envelope sent to you via USPS, and then drop it off at the post office. These aren't collected centrally; they get sent straight to the local polling stations where people are already sitting there all day, and they don't really have any high-tech gear to open envelopes and scan votes automatically. Since mail-in ballots have become so unexpectedly popular, I guess they might switch to electronic voting soon, or maybe they'll have to automate or centralize things.

It makes zero sense that "mail-in" votes aren't counted until the day after the election. It just leaves too much room for tampering. Why can't those be counted at the exact same time as the in-person votes?

Well, I guess it probably wouldn't be finished within 24 hours anyway, so it would drag into the next day. Plus, the poll workers might be pretty tired by then and more prone to mistakes. I'm not sure how much can even be done at the individual precincts, but maybe they'll move toward some kind of regional centralization and automation—like sending the mail-in slips to regional hubs that actually have machines to speed things up.

I was wondering yesterday what else might come to light in the meantime. And then, boom—145% turnout in one spot. 😁
Want to bet that more irregularities will pop up?

Irregularities (unintentional ones) aren't really that unusual, I suppose. For those of us following the election mechanics, it's pretty common that Election officials don't always follow a single rule when someone shows up with a completed mail-in ballot. Sometimes a voter gets counted twice, though obviously, it's only one vote. So, it’s likely not manipulation, just inconsistent counting. Though, 145% is definitely way too high, but I guess we shouldn't worry too much; they'll surely look into it thoroughly.

Brenda Taylor13 said:Ugh, seriously, has anyone actually come up with a halfway decent explanation for why the mail-in ballot numbers are such a massive outlier compared to what we saw at the actual polling stations? Like, I mean, really think about it—at the precincts, Hofer pulled in 51%, but then you look at these mail-in ballots and suddenly the guy's sitting at 61%? That’s just... wow. Totally normal, right? Yeah, sure, just a totally "normal" gap.

I touched on this briefly a few pages back. Mail-in voting exists so everyone gets a say. It covers people living abroad or folks who aren't near their registered precinct on election day—think summer vacations, weekend trips, having two addresses, or being sick. That’s exactly why voter turnout in Austria is so high.
There are a few ways to handle mail-in ballots.
1) You request your ballot, receive the ballot itself along with two envelopes—one neutral one for your vote, which goes inside a larger pre-printed envelope. You add your name and address, sign it, and then a sticker covers your info to keep it private. Drop it in the mail, and you're done.
2) Another option is using that ballot at a different location, like a second home for the weekend. In that case, you drop the neutral envelope with your vote into the box, and the commission keeps the outer envelope for verification. Those votes get credited to that local district.
3) The third way is just picking up the ballot at City Hall (or the local clerk's office) and voting right then and there. The outer envelope goes straight into the ballot box.
Once counting starts at the municipal level, they separate both envelopes first so nobody can see how a specific person voted.
It's textbook democracy! 👍

It makes sense that the Greens and the ÖVP consistently pull the most votes here. Most of these voters are "weekend residents"—affluent urbanites with vacation homes in the country who tend to lean either liberal or conservative.
You really can't compare this to the voting demographics back in the North America.

Mail-in ballots get sent over to the polling stations, just like you said. When I asked why they aren't counted right alongside the in-person votes, you suggested it might just be because the poll workers are exhausted from all the counting... But honestly—it could be so easy to just have a separate little crew there specifically to handle those mail-in ones (if they even make up 15% of the total) right as the election wraps up. That way, they'd be finished at the exact same time as the main group counting the local ballots. You'd think an organized country like the US would have figured that out by now—instead, they wait until the local precinct counts are done before even touching the mail-in pile?😲
If that’s actually how it works, I’m pretty shocked by how disorganized things are.

Mark Harris66 said:Mail-in ballots get sent over to the polling stations, just like you said. When I asked why they aren't counted right alongside the in-person votes, you suggested it might just be because the poll workers are exhausted from all the counting... But honestly—it could be so easy to just have a separate little crew there specifically to handle those mail-in ones (if they even make up 15% of the total) right as the election wraps up. That way, they'd be finished at the exact same time as the main group counting the local ballots. You'd think an organized country like the US would have figured that out by now—instead, they wait until the local precinct counts are done before even touching the mail-in pile?😲
If that’s actually how it works, I’m pretty shocked by how disorganized things are.

What kind of disorganization? I mean, everything seemed to go according to plan. I didn't really notice any mess-ups. I guess the way Austria treats Sunday and worker burnout is just different than how things work in America—it feels more like a cultural thing. Plus, there were only about two supervisors per station, so who would you even pull in to work through the night? It seems like maybe you're overthinking this, especially since nobody expected things to be this uncertain given that Mail-in ballots haven't been such a deciding factor before. Austrians seem to prefer waiting a day rather than forcing people to work all night, I suppose. Of course, you're allowed to find it shocking. But I'd say you might be stressing over things that don't really matter. The big question is—did everything follow the rules, was there any tampering, or were there any attacks on candidates? I don't really get this obsession with whether results come in at 2:00 AM or 4:30 PM.

Nathan Morris3 said:Honestly, I don't see why Americans get so worked up about a democratic process that Austrians seem to love. This system has been around since 2007 and more people use it every year, which probably helps strengthen democracy by boosting turnout. People don't have to worry about being in the right place at the exact right time; they have the CHOICE to vote however they want. Now that the results didn't go someone's way, they start bashing Austrian democracy. Even though the Republican Party accepted the loss and likely won't complain since everything was legitimate, you still have people from the States acting like this voting method is a huge problem.
For anyone seeing a conspiracy here, maybe take a few minutes to look up how the mail-in ballot works. If you look for actual complaints about the method, I get the feeling the loudest critics are usually the ones who don't even understand it. I guess they just like having something to attack. Sure, any system can be abused, but if Austrians find the risk acceptable, I don't see the issue. Personally, I think the mail-in ballot is great, and it works perfectly in Austria. I'm not sure if it would work as well in the States.

It's no big deal; in a race between a left-wing and a right-wing candidate, half the country went one way and the other half went the other. You'd probably see similar results in most places, including the USA. It isn't that shocking that a candidate from a fairly minor left-wing party (polling at just over 10%) beat a right-wing candidate (who had over 30% in polls), or that the right-wing candidate still managed to hit that 50% mark, which is a big psychological milestone. Austrians will live with this divide, but it seems like Americans just can't accept this Austrian choice. Pretty funny, I guess.😁

Maybe you moved from the States to Austria, but you're still thinking like you're back home, worrying about being cheated and doubting democracy when you probably didn't trust it much there either. But I guess these are two pretty different worlds, with their own pros and cons.

Well, there's an old saying somewhere... "Who knows where that guy got his riches?" 😁
Because in that mindset, there is just no way anyone could actually own anything unless they cheated to get it.

It’s the same thing with elections—people assume those who won must be experts at rigging the system or fudging the numbers, because surely, there's no chance the votes were counted fairly.
Even if Hofer had won, people would still be suspicious, asking why it wasn't him instead of the other guy.😁

Regarding these elections in Austria, the gap between the candidates is practically negligible. It was almost split down the middle—half for one, half for the other—which just makes some people think half the population must have folded.

But then VdB calls for unity and emphasizes being non-partisan.
They aren't trying to fan the flames between different political factions or anything like that.

The mail-in ballot option has turned out to be a really solid choice. More and more people are using it because it's just easier to prepare ahead of time (by registering to vote that way) so they can fulfill their civic duty without any stress on election day itself.
People acting surprised by this is kind of like being shocked by online shopping because you're used to walking into a physical store and paying with cash. Why wouldn't you want to avoid handing over money you haven't even seen or felt? It's just practical! 😬

I’m not even worried about mail-in ballots—it’s more about how long they take to count.
No matter who wins, there’s always that massive window for things to get messy...
Every single vote—whether it's cast at a polling station, via a mail-in ballot, or eventually through online voting—needs to be counted all at once. Anything else just leaves the door wide open for manipulation.
If Austrians don't want to deal with the hassle of working on a Sunday once every four years for the election commission (bless their hearts...), then they can deal with the consequences—especially if they haven't been paying their fair share up until now (we handle that differently in the States).

Mark Harris66 said:I’m not even worried about mail-in ballots—it’s more about how long they take to count.
No matter who wins, there’s always that massive window for things to get messy...
Every single vote—whether it's cast at a polling station, via a mail-in ballot, or eventually through online voting—needs to be counted all at once. Anything else just leaves the door wide open for manipulation.
If Austrians don't want to deal with the hassle of working on a Sunday once every four years for the election commission (bless their hearts...), then they can deal with the consequences—especially if they haven't been paying their fair share up until now (we handle that differently in the States).

It’s purely a logistics issue. They don't have enough staff on election day because everyone is already tied up working the polls. Those same people are the ones counting everything the next day...
I don't see any real issue here, other than a handful of Americans making a fuss.😁

Well, I guess that’s just one of those fundamental differences between AT and America.
That deep-seated fear of being cheated, the tendency to stir up trouble, this general distrust toward official institutions—it’s almost like the whole world is out to get you kind of vibe—is pretty much baked into the DNA of American society.😁

Look, if the votes are actually being counted honestly—whether we're talking about mail-in ballots or the ones cast right there at the polling station—then waiting an extra 24 hours doesn't change a thing. If someone is truly looking to rig the system, they aren't going to be stopped just because the counting isn't happening simultaneously, right?

By the end of the day, the poll workers were sitting at 50%... I mean, if they had finished the count immediately and we knew the exact numbers by midnight, why on earth would those results suddenly be more trustworthy than what we have now? 🤷

And even if Hofer had won, how would anyone ever be sure that the whole thing wasn't rigged?

coastalbison6 said:It’s purely a logistics issue. They don't have enough staff on election day because everyone is already tied up working the polls. Those same people are the ones counting everything the next day...
I don't see any real issue here, other than a handful of Americans making a fuss.😁

It’s not just a "handful" of Americans complaining; it's closer to 50%—or let's be precise, 49.7%. 🙂

But hey, that's clearly insignificant, right? Just a few blue-collar, small-town conspiracy theorists with nothing better to do. 🙂

coastalbison6 said:It’s purely a logistics issue. They don't have enough staff on election day because everyone is already tied up working the polls. Those same people are the ones counting everything the next day...
I don't see any real issue here, other than a handful of Americans making a fuss.😁

That’s only because Americans can see exactly where they're being led! 🧐
Personally, I look at it as just being a good neighbor—well, almost neighbors, anyway.

Plus, it isn't exactly great for our image when it becomes obvious that some countries have much more organized systems for handling work during holidays.😁

hiddenmarlin14 said:It’s not just a "handful" of Americans complaining; it's closer to 50%—or let's be precise, 49.7%. 🙂

But hey, that's clearly insignificant, right? Just a few blue-collar, small-town conspiracy theorists with nothing better to do. 🙂

man, looks like you're starting to get the hang of politics🙂