Let's talk about capitalism...

Honestly, this has absolutely nothing to do with socialism; what we’re looking at here are the systemic failures of capitalism.
I won't dive into a full-blown manifesto right now, but if you look at the history, socialism essentially just paved the way, creating the infrastructure that allowed capitalism to spread more rapidly and efficiently across the globe—and quite frankly, I don't think there's been a greater force for harm visited upon humanity than the unchecked grip of capitalism.

Vicky said:Yeah, sure, because feudalism and slave societies were clearly just so much more advanced and wonderful... 😁

Whoa, hold on a second—do you actually have a single functioning brain cell in there??!!
I mean, seriously, what is the actual difference between capitalism and feudalism?
Back then, you had slaves working themselves to death for some greedy individual, and today, we just have modern-day slaves grinding away for greedy, ambitious corporate sharks.

beebop said:Hold on a second, what on earth are you talking about? Are you actually serious right now?
What is the actual difference between capitalism and feudalism?
In the old days, you had slaves working for one greedy individual; today, we just have modern-day slaves working for greedy, ambitious primates.

If you can't see the distinction, I suggest you head back to school.

Under capitalism, you work for someone else by choice because they pay you. If the terms don't suit you, you simply find another employer willing to offer a higher salary. Or, if you prefer, you could join a massive corporation like Amazon where you hold shares. In previous systems, there was zero agency. Furthermore, even as a standard employee, your quality of life far exceeds that of most historical lords, largely because capitalism has driven production to unprecedented levels.

If you truly despise working for others, then build your own business.

And if you consider yourself particularly talented or indispensable, start a firm and provide high-quality services to the market. If your ego is even larger than that, perhaps become an independent consultant pulling in $20,000 or $30,000 a month.

You could even opt out of the workforce entirely, thanks to the social safety net provided by the state.

The choice remains yours.

However, this is drifting off-topic. Please move this debate to its own dedicated thread.

Vicky said:If you can't see the difference, go back to school.

Look, if you’re volunteering your time for someone else, it's because they’re paying you. If you aren't happy with the paycheck, just find another employer who will offer you more. Or, you could always work for a massive corporation where you actually hold some ownership stakes. Under those old systems, you didn't have any choice at all. Even as a standard employee, you're living much better than most of the feudal lords of the past ever could, simply because capitalism has boosted production so incredibly high.

And honestly, if you don't want to work for someone else, then just work for yourself.

If you truly think you're such a big shot, then go ahead and start your own company—that way you can provide quality work for yourself and everyone else.

You could even choose not to work at all, since we have a social safety net.

But anyway, that's getting off-topic. You should probably start a separate thread if you want to debate those kinds of things.

That is such a textbook capitalist mindset.
People spend their entire lives working just to survive instead of actually living; we only get about 50 miserable years on this earth, and we spend them all grinding away like idiots for some corporate pig created by a capitalist system—which, let's be honest, is just a direct result of human greed. It's honestly revolting; the whole thing makes me sick.🙂

beebop said:Classic capitalist mindset.
People spend their entire lives working instead of actually living. We get roughly fifty miserable years on this planet, and we spend them grinding like idiots for some corporate pig birthed by a system fueled by pure human greed. It’s revolting. Honestly, the whole thing makes me sick.🙂

Sure, it would be easier to be born into an aristocratic family. You'd have your food and clothing handed to you, and your only responsibility would be frolicking through the gardens for some duchess... 😁

But let's be realistic: everything you possess is the product of human labor. Without it, you wouldn't even last a week surviving in the woods—if anything, you'd have to work ten times harder just to stay alive out there. Besides, if you're so disillusioned, why don't you just unplug and toss your laptop in the trash? Every single convenience you enjoy was built by a multinational corporation, so at least try to be consistent with your convictions. 😁

Fine then, if you're such an expert, pitch an alternative model. Start a new thread and give us something concrete.

beebop said:It’s just your standard capitalist mindset, I suppose.
People seem to live solely to work rather than working to live, which feels somewhat absurd when you consider we only get about 50 miserable years on this planet. We spend that entire window grinding away like fools for some corporate titan created by a system built entirely on human greed. It’s honestly quite repulsive; the whole thing just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.🙂

I suspect it might be problematic if you feel that much disgust, mostly because you might find yourself opening your own small business in a few years and then you'll end up loathing your own decisions.
In a capitalist framework, you are essentially selling your services to an employer within the labor market, who then integrates those services into a product to be sold elsewhere.
I guess the logic follows that the more skilled you are as a service provider—or a worker, if you prefer—the higher the price you can command, just as your employer commands a price for what they put on the market.
If you aren't driven by greed and don't feel the need to gouge people or hoard every cent, you could always sell everything you own, split the cash, move to a remote island or deep into the Pacific Northwest wilderness, and live like a hermit hunting fish and gathering fruit; perhaps then you would experience total freedom.
I remember watching a documentary on some commune dwellers, and after about thirty minutes of them rambling on about how they were completely liberated and didn't need money, the final shot was of one guy scavenging for spare change in a marketplace—stuff passersby had tossed aside—while kneeling on the ground right after their big "performance." It felt quite tragic, though I suppose it was also somewhat comical in its irony.

Vicky said:Besides, just unplug from the internet and toss that computer out the window. You’re only in this position because multinational corporations made it possible, so you might as well be consistent with your principles. 😁

But how on earth am I supposed to stay true to my principles when the entire game is rigged by the majority!!??
And how can I just throw away my computer when, unfortunately, that very machine is my livelihood!?
I mean, I’d much rather be working some land out in the Midwest, but how is that even an option when commerce is the only thing that actually pays the bills these days? Even here on this forum, you see people asking for advice on how to import goods from overseas—it’s the same story everywhere, where everything from basic snacks to household items is just cheap mass-produced stuff under a big corporate label that we all end up consuming blindly.

If you look at it, a person’s functional life is maybe fifty years if you count from that mid-twenties period when you're still messing around before reality hits, and after that, we just work ourselves to the bone every single day, and our entire existence boils down to:
-commuting to work
-grinding away with frustrated managers
-trekking back home on the pavement
-eating
-shitting
-having sex
-sleeping

And where in this whole mess is the spiritual aspect? Where is the soul? Has anyone actually stopped to ask themselves if we really live in this chaotic world just to hoard material possessions only to kick the bucket shortly after?? Where is the fucking point in any of it??

It feels like capitalist propaganda has successfully programmed us to exist solely for the sake of grabbing whatever we can... I honestly wonder what goes through the mind of a capitalist robot at the exact moment its physical shell finally gives out—does anyone ever actually stop to ask, "Wait, what was the point of all this?"

beebop said:How am I supposed to stay true to myself when the majority is calling all the shots??
How can I just ditch my computer when this machine is literally how I pay my bills!?
Sure, I'd rather be out farming, but how is that even an option when retail is basically the only way to make a buck these days? Look at this forum—people are asking for advice on how to import goods from overseas, and we’re already importing everything from China, even the yogurt, which we just shove down our throats under some big-box store label.

The average lifespan is maybe 50 years if you count from when you hit 22 or 24 and the fun ends. After that, it's just grinding like a beast. Every single day boils down to:
-commuting to work
-dealing with frustrated assholes
-trudging home on the pavement
-eating
-shitting
-pounding your junk into some fleshy hole
-sleeping

And where’s the spiritual aspect in all of this? Where’s the soul? Has anyone actually stopped to ask if we really live on this crappy planet just to hoard material crap and then die?? What’s the fucking point??

But nope, capitalist propaganda successfully programmed us to live for the grab. I wonder what goes through the head of a capitalist robot at the moment their shell finally gives out. Does anyone even stop to ask, "Wait, why am I doing all this?"

Why are you even looking at what’s profitable? Just plant your own potatoes, corn, wheat... and live. You'll have enough to get by. Sure, you'll be digging with a hoe, and trust me, that sucks (I've been there), but you'll survive. And you won't have to:

-go to a job
-deal with frustrated assholes
-trudge home on the pavement
-eat
-shit, though unfortunately you still have to do that😬
-pound your junk into some fleshy hole
-sleep, you don't even have to do that now😁

If you want to break free from the capitalist grip, stop thinking about profit margins... Only capitalists care about what's "profitable."!!!
Believe me, you'll change your tune pretty fast once you start working with a hoe... 😁

spy said:It’s really not helpful to feel disgusted by the whole system, because who knows, maybe in a few years you'll end up launching your own startup and find yourself feeling just as repulsed by your own dealings.
In a capitalist framework, you're essentially selling your skills to an employer within the labor market, who then integrates those services into a product to be sold further down the line.

I honestly believe there are two distinct flavors of capitalism: the "Wild West" kind and the more structured version. Here in the States—or rather, looking at how things operate in certain circles—we mostly just deal with that wild, predatory version of capitalist evil, and if you want to know what I mean by that...
To give you a real-world example from my own life, I work in software development, and I recently crossed paths with this old mentor of mine who got really interested in an application I've been building, so naturally, I agreed to collaborate with him.
The very next day, he and I headed over to a major corporation, a household name like Microsoft, so that I could pitch the app directly to their executive suite 😬 and the senior management team.
The thing is, these executives weren't actually listening to a single word I was saying; they were just nodding along and shouting "Brilliant! Absolutely brilliant!" because they knew that by using my mentor as a middleman, they could siphon a massive amount of capital out of the company, split it among themselves, and leave me with my predictable little slice of the pie. If I had tried to bring this application to the open market on my own, I would have faced an uphill battle, primarily dealing with the nightmare of collections and billing, which would have sucked up so much time and energy that I'd be lucky to just break even, regardless of how hard I worked.

As for how long this charade can keep going like this? I honestly don't know, but I find myself taking a strange sort of comfort in the fact that this entire capitalist mess is eventually bound to collapse under its own weight.
At the end of the day, as long as this culture of nepotism and "who you know" remains the driving force, we aren't going to see any semblance of a functional, Western-style market economy, which is just as flawed as this primitive, cutthroat model we're stuck with here.

beebop said:Classic capitalist mindset right there.
People spend their entire lives working just to survive instead of actually living! We only get about 50 lousy years on this planet, and we spend every single one of them grinding like absolute maniacs just to line the pockets of some corporate shark created by a rigged system. It’s all just a direct result of pure human greed, honestly. It's gross. I can't even look at it without feeling totally nauseated. 🙂

Look, I’m my own boss. If you don't have the skills to run your own show and you hate answering to someone else, hey, you can always go join a monastery!

beebop said:How am I supposed to stay true to myself when the majority calls all the shots!!??
And how can I just ditch my computer when, unfortunately, this rig is literally my livelihood!?
Look, I’d much rather be out working some farmland, but how is that even an option when the only way to make a buck these days is through trade? Even here on this forum, you see people asking how to import goods from China—and honestly, we’re already importing everything from there, even yogurt, and then we just gobble up that crap under a generic grocery store label.

If you look at a human lifespan, you've got maybe 50 years of actual life if you count from age 22 or 24—after all that youthful messing around is done. After that, you're just working like a dog. Every single day boils down to:
-commuting to work
-dealing with frustrated assholes
-trekking back home on the pavement
-eating
-shitting
-having sex
-sleeping

But where is the spiritual aspect in all this? Where is the soul? Has anyone actually stopped to ask, "Wait, are we really living on this crazy planet just to hoard material stuff and then drop dead??" Like, where is the fucking point in any of this??

It’s just that capitalist propaganda successfully programmed us to live solely for the grab... I mean, what goes through the mind of a little capitalist robot the moment they finally check out of this shell they're trapped in? Does it ever even occur to anyone to ask, 'What was the whole point?'

Oh, give me a break. I was born in 1950, so it wasn't exactly easy for capitalist propaganda to brainwash me. And if you think things were somehow easier under socialism, you're dead wrong. Maybe for people with zero ambitions, sure. But my standards were high.

For instance, I wanted a boss who was actually smarter and more capable than I was. It took me twenty years of grinding in a "socialist economy" before I finally found that in the West. Eventually, I realized it’s even better to be your own boss, so I made that happen. Then, once I moved back to America, I did the exact same thing here.

I'm not naive; I can see capitalism has massive flaws, but I don't see a single existing system that actually works better.

And as for spirituality, my friend, you don't pick that up at a local Farmer's Market or a corner store. You find that by having something in your head and actually seeking more than what's handed to you. You push yourself, you grow, you evolve... basically, you work on yourself instead of just whining about it.

Ninety-nine percent of human history has been one giant, bloody injustice. So what now? You think there wasn't spirituality in all that? No way. It was all just waiting on you.

Everything seems to have its own set of pros and cons, I suppose.

Capitalism tends to result in a small group of wealthy individuals and an overwhelming number of poor ones.
socialism often leads to a tiny privileged class and a vast amount of unhappy people.

I think there really needs to be some sort of middle ground found. Vicky once mentioned Star Trek and how they depicted a form of communism within the series—you know, with money being abolished, everyone doing what they want, focusing on space exploration, and maintaining world peace. It just doesn't seem possible to me. If we look at history, for instance...

Emericzy said:For instance, I used to dream about having a boss who was actually sharper and more capable than I am. It took me twenty years of grinding away in a stagnant socialist economy before I finally experienced that kind of leadership once I moved out West. But then, I realized there’s something much better about just being your own boss, so I made that leap. Eventually, I brought that same entrepreneurial spirit back home to America and set things up here too.
.

Oh, wonderful... as long as someone's business is running smoothly and they get the added bonus of calling all the shots themselves...
I bet you're in sales or something.

You’re basically the definition of a local... and I don't even mean because of where you were born, but more like your whole way of life...

So, what I'm getting at is, you hate working for anyone else, you can't stand being in this neighborhood, and you wouldn't even bother starting your own business because, let's face it, it isn't worth the hassle... so what's the point?
TOTAL LOSER!

There are plenty of spots in Chicago for people like you... just go hang out in some dive bar, talk politics or complain about them... you don't have any actual responsibilities anyway...

If you were actually living in New York, for instance, you wouldn't be talking all this trash. Because if you were just sitting on your couch doing nothing, you wouldn't have health insurance, which means you couldn't even see a doctor... so you'd eventually have to get a job... and you wouldn't have time to sit around acting like a bum.

Maxxy said:If you're looking to break free from the capitalist embrace, stop obsessing over whether it's "profitable." Profitability is a metric reserved solely for the capitalists themselves.
Trust me, your perspective will shift quite rapidly once you find yourself out in a field with nothing but a hoe. 😁

It’s the exact same paradox facing the anti-globalization movement. They coordinate their protests using IBM computers connected to the web, organize via smartphones with international roaming, travel to the city square in vehicles manufactured halfway across the globe, and wear clothing stitched together by overseas labor—all while shouting about how much they despise globalism.🙂

Why all the hate and negativity thrown at people? Maybe they just can't scrape together enough seed money for the business they actually want. Or maybe everything they're capable of doing is just low-margin garbage.
I mean, who actually *enjoys* grinding for someone else? It’s just the path of least resistance. Living life on autopilot. You get that first paycheck and feel fancy, land a steady gig, start eyeing a new Ford, then kids show up, debt piles up, and suddenly you're staring down middle age. By the time you realize you want more, you're too terrified to risk anything for your family because you're nearing 60 and Social Security from $667 is nowhere in sight. Just a lifetime of stress-induced health issues and being broke. I lost my train of thought somewhere there...

Rachel Ruiz39 said:How am I supposed to stay true to myself when everyone else is playing by a totally different set of rules!!??
And how can I just smash my computer when, unfortunately, this machine is literally my livelihood!?
Look, I'd much rather be out working some land, but how is that even an option? These days, if you aren't in retail or trade, you're stuck. Even on this forum, people are asking how to import stuff from China... and honestly, half the stuff we eat is already imported from overseas and slapped under a Kroger label, and we just keep swallowing it down.

Realistically, a person's "active" life is maybe 50 years... assuming you count from age 22 or 24 after all the partying is done. After that, you just grind like a beast. Every single day boils down to:
-commuting to work
-dealing with frustrated assholes
-walking home on the pavement
-eating
-random bullshit
-hooking up
-sleeping

But where’s the spiritual side in all of this? Where is the soul? Has anyone actually stopped to ask if we're really living on this crazy planet just to hoard material crap before we kick the bucket?? What’s the fucking point??

It feels like capitalist propaganda programmed us to just exist for the sake of grabbing more... I wonder what goes through the mind of a capitalist robot at the moment its shell finally breaks. Does anyone ever stop to ask, "Wait, why am I doing all this?"

And you think you have some connection to SPIRITUALITY??

Sounds like you lost that part of yourself somewhere between the womb and the real world.

steelviper49 said:So you're trying to link yourself to some kind of SPIRITUALITY??

It honestly feels like you might have left your common sense back in the delivery room when you were born.

I’m not actually trying to tie my identity to spirituality; I am simply asking for a definition of what spirituality actually IS.

To be perfectly honest, this entire forum has become such a mess because it's filled with a bunch of frustrated, mindless trolls who apparently have nothing better to do than act out like you, attacking topics they clearly don't understand at all.

Rachel Ruiz39 said:I’m not even trying to link this to spirituality, I’m just asking WHAT SPIRITUALITY EVEN IS

This forum is a joke. It’s just a bunch of frustrated losers with zero brain cells who have nothing better to do than obsess over threads they don't even understand, just like you.

Sure, everyone else is brainless and miserable except for you. 😬
And I'm not acting out of frustration:

The average human lifespan is maybe 50 years if you count from age 22—after the partying ends and you start working like a dog. Every single day boils down to:
-commuting to work
-dealing with annoying idiots
-driving home on the highway
-eating
-shitting
-pounding some meat
-sleeping

If you don't find any joy in "pounding some meat," that's on you. Nobody's forcing you to do it.
On the flip side, eating, shitting, and sleeping are biological necessities—without them, you don't exist.
Go to India and meditate! 😈