Offside Chat Archives (2014-2021)

I guess I actually see things the opposite way; it should be the Syrians themselves, specifically the young men, who step up to get Syria back on track. Honestly, who here or even on this forum is actually speaking out against women and children? Walter Grant5 is linking to Jergović for no real reason since we aren't even discussing that child here. It seems pretty wild that so many young men are risking their lives as refugees instead of serving on the front lines or working in construction and mines. That hasn't really happened like this before in history. There might be some new reasons for it, but it doesn't change the fact that this feels like something entirely different. You can't really compare this to the mass settlement of both Americas, because back then people were moving to conquer undeveloped territories. Here, large numbers of people are arriving in major European cities just to scrape by, often living right on the edge of the law.

Matthew Anderson4 said:So? You actually rooting for them to find a better life or what?

This whole thing has absolutely nothing to do with my original post, which stated that we aren't talking about war refugees here, but economic migrants. In fact, this just proves my point. If someone can't see that, there's nothing I can do for them.

But since I'm already here airing my grievances...
Everyone has the right to fight for a better life—them, me, you. But laws exist for a reason. They are meant to be respected. Not so hordes can just swarm into Germany without a care in the world for anything else.

I find it hard to believe that if I suddenly headed to Sweden right now and told them, "Hey, I'm here to live and work, so show me some hospitality," they wouldn't just tell me, "Slow down, buddy, there's some bureaucratic red tape we need to clear first." And honestly? I probably would never even get a long-term permit in Sweden. Meanwhile, Syrians are rushing into Germany like they're under some kind of spell, crossing borders illegally because they know damn well it's the easiest way to land a decent job—or if they don't find one, they'll just sit back on €900 in state welfare with housing paid for.

Michelle Palmer6 said:Did they stay in refugee camps first and trek into Europe on foot or in overcrowded vehicles with nothing but a single suitcase, being processed by police and military, stuck in camps waiting for humanitarian aid, all while knowing there's a very real chance they or someone in their family might not even make it to Europe alive?

No, I didn't. Refugees are people looking for any way possible to quickly resume a decent life. The idea that "refugees" only counts those sitting in camps in neighboring countries, putting their lives on hold while waiting for things to settle down, is just a flaw in your definition.

You think that’s a valid point? It isn't. At most, it's relevant to you and your personal bias, because you feel sympathy for individuals who have suffered, whereas you feel nothing for those who were smart enough to leave at the right time and do everything legally. But that's just your take. At the end of the day, both groups are simply economic migrants.

Look, I’m a refugee myself. My old man fled alongside me and my sister to escape those bloodthirsty hordes back home 😉 but, he stayed right there on the front lines like most of the capable men did. We had our paperwork in order, and once we made it to the US, we got our official refugee status—we were fully identified. We definitely didn't turn down any help, honestly; at that point, the only thing that mattered was surviving the border crossing. The way some people are acting now is just pure chaos. This isn't Syria or some other lawless wasteland; there needs to be some kind of order. I’m totally with Jessica Gonzalez on this one—if every able-bodied man runs away, who’s left to fight? Who’s actually going to step up and bring about change one day? Is the EU really going to just open its doors to every single citizen from every single country whenever a war breaks out?

They’d love to cash in on all those European perks, but they wouldn't dream of actually following European standards of behavior. Plus, you can't really blame people for being terrified about ISIS cells slipping in unnoticed. Honestly, that's more than enough reason to be skeptical of these economic migrants.

Solid movie playing on RTL. 🍿

Rachel Cooper3 said:Solid movie playing on RTL. 🍿

🙏

Matthew Anderson4 said:Anyone here actually delusional enough to think just because they happened to be born in some random spot deserves a decent life more than some guy from Syria or Gambia? Any of you small, ugly, spoiled brats around here? Just incredibly arrogant, twisted, and dim?

Deserving has nothing to do with it. The reality is we have a better shot at life than 75% of the globe. If anyone's conscience is bothering them about it, they're free to hand over their assets to those less fortunate.

Charles Chase4 said:I find it hard to believe anyone would have an issue with that, especially when we're talking about people fleeing the devastation of war.

The real debate lately seems to center on how this—this potentially inevitable, massive, and permanent influx of people with fundamentally different cultures and worldviews—will impact the lives and opportunities of those in the host nations, particularly when reading accounts suggesting there's little interest in assimilation.

Now, I’m not an expert enough to dive into a deep sociological analysis here, but from what I can gather, Muslim immigrants across Europe face significant integration hurdles at best. Given that, is it really such a scandal that people feel uneasy about these migrations occurring on the large scale we might be seeing on the horizon? 🤷 And that's not even touching upon the security concerns regarding undocumented individuals crossing borders en masse.

Ultimately, the solution should be for the US and the rest of the world to stabilize these regions so people can live normally in their own homelands, rather than simply relocating an entire population from one continent to another.

If nobody actually has an issue with it, why is everyone coming into the US strictly through smugglers? And why are they building all these walls around Europe?

Who’s even talking about this lately? Which two sides are clashing? It's all about those states being flooded by outsiders, right? Isn't that just the same old debate over whether we should let them in or not? Honestly, wouldn't the Prime Minister of a developed nation prefer to just ship everyone back to the desert? Are we actually ready to give up our blessed comfort when the route starts crossing through us? I bet a decent chunk of people would be screaming to build walls.

Look, it’s not just something to sit around debating or overthinking. This isn't a philosophical exercise; it's inevitable. Refugees are coming. Migrants are coming. It's way too late to try fixing things at the source—honestly, suggesting that to someone from Syria would be pretty insulting, given how much the developed nations, led by the USA, played a role in creating the chaos they're fleeing. Now, America and the rest of the West have to decide if we're actually ready for change (though most of us are probably just judging based on our own biases) to give people a shot at a better life—or at least, just a life. Sure, it’s risky. But are we willing to take that risk so they can have the kind of life we basically get by default? It’s that simple: either we are, or we aren't. And if we aren't, why? Just to protect our own way of life? Are we really going to put our lifestyle above someone else's actual existence? Above the right to live, to have dignity, and to get a fair shot at building something decent in the 21st century?

Are we actually ready to roll the dice? That’s the real question. You don't even start on a plan until you answer that. Right now, there isn't a unified answer across the US, so things are getting messy. It really comes down to what matters more: our identity as Americans or just being human. If we get this wrong, whatever's left of our national identity will just be a mask worn by things that look like us, but aren't. At that point, there's nowhere left to run or hide from the chaos, unless you blast off into space to get away from a planet crawling with human mimics. Refugees are already running for their lives from creatures just like them.

Look, in that whole argument of yours, economic migrants have every right to move, too. Should they just sit around in places like Somalia or Gambia waiting for the 21st century to finally show up? We’re already living in the 21st century and we're leaving our own country because we don't see any real potential in it—or in ourselves to fix it. So why should someone from Gambia just stay put and wait? What's the point of people in some of the poorest spots on Earth holding out hope? For what kind of future?

Jessica Gonzalez said:I guess I actually see things the opposite way; it should be the Syrians themselves, specifically the young men, who step up to get Syria back on track. Honestly, who here or even on this forum is actually speaking out against women and children? Walter Grant5 is linking to Jergović for no real reason since we aren't even discussing that child here. It seems pretty wild that so many young men are risking their lives as refugees instead of serving on the front lines or working in construction and mines. That hasn't really happened like this before in history. There might be some new reasons for it, but it doesn't change the fact that this feels like something entirely different. You can't really compare this to the mass settlement of both Americas, because back then people were moving to conquer undeveloped territories. Here, large numbers of people are arriving in major European cities just to scrape by, often living right on the edge of the law.

Economic migrants have flooded the US to the point where Spanish is essentially one of the official languages in states like California, Florida, and Arizona. And yeah, plenty of those Latinos in the US are living right on the edge of legality. So, this hasn't just happened; it’s been happening throughout history. Large-scale economic migrations have always existed whenever there was a massive gap in development between places that were relatively easy to travel to.

And this whole thing about young men being ready to risk everything as refugees but not on the front lines... you got any actual stats? Has anyone here seen any numbers? Does anyone actually know how many young Syrians have died on the front lines over these last four years? How many brothers and friends have these guys buried? Do you even know the causes of the war in Syria, which sides are fighting, how the conflict unfolded, or what the situation looks like now? Did you know that four years ago, a civil war broke out in Syria where young Syrians were dropping like flies trying to oust Assad? Do you realize that back then, Assad specifically turned his military might against Sunni rebels and civilians just to pull ISIS into the mix? And now you’ve got government forces, rebels, ISIS, and Kurds all fighting there. The government has hundreds of thousands of soldiers, plus another hundred thousand in reserve. Do you know that the FSA, which has been fighting Assad's regime since 2011 and later ISIS, still counts at least 50,000 people after four years of war? Do you know how many young Syrians have picked up a rifle? A normal, smart young Syrian simply has nothing left to fight for there. That country is surrounded.

frozencobra50 said:This whole thing has absolutely nothing to do with my original post, which stated that we aren't talking about war refugees here, but economic migrants. In fact, this just proves my point. If someone can't see that, there's nothing I can do for them.

But since I'm already here airing my grievances...
Everyone has the right to fight for a better life—them, me, you. But laws exist for a reason. They are meant to be respected. Not so hordes can just swarm into Germany without a care in the world for anything else.

I find it hard to believe that if I suddenly headed to Sweden right now and told them, "Hey, I'm here to live and work, so show me some hospitality," they wouldn't just tell me, "Slow down, buddy, there's some bureaucratic red tape we need to clear first." And honestly? I probably would never even get a long-term permit in Sweden. Meanwhile, Syrians are rushing into Germany like they're under some kind of spell, crossing borders illegally because they know damn well it's the easiest way to land a decent job—or if they don't find one, they'll just sit back on €900 in state welfare with housing paid for.

You think that’s a valid point? It isn't. At most, it's relevant to you and your personal bias, because you feel sympathy for individuals who have suffered, whereas you feel nothing for those who were smart enough to leave at the right time and do everything legally. But that's just your take. At the end of the day, both groups are simply economic migrants.

If Sweden shuts its doors on you, you just head back home to America. If Sweden shuts its doors on them, they go back to Somalia. That's a massive, massive difference, and it needs to be factored in.

And look, if you were in their shoes, wouldn't you head straight to where finding a job is easiest? Or at least somewhere where you'd have some social safety net and a place to stay while you hunt? It gives you that window of stability to actually find work. You wouldn't go to a place like that? Of course you would. So let's not even pretend otherwise.

graniteheron132 said:Look, I’m a refugee myself. My old man fled alongside me and my sister to escape those bloodthirsty hordes back home 😉 but, he stayed right there on the front lines like most of the capable men did. We had our paperwork in order, and once we made it to the US, we got our official refugee status—we were fully identified. We definitely didn't turn down any help, honestly; at that point, the only thing that mattered was surviving the border crossing. The way some people are acting now is just pure chaos. This isn't Syria or some other lawless wasteland; there needs to be some kind of order. I’m totally with Jessica Gonzalez on this one—if every able-bodied man runs away, who’s left to fight? Who’s actually going to step up and bring about change one day? Is the EU really going to just open its doors to every single citizen from every single country whenever a war breaks out?

So you're siding with Jessica Gonzalez, but have you actually checked if all the capable men are really fleeing? Or are you just agreeing with something that could be miles away from the truth based on a few refugee photos?!

The logic here is absolutely broken. If someone flees the war in Syria into Turkey, they are labeled a refugee. But if that very same person keeps moving from Turkey toward Germany, suddenly they’re rebranded as an economic migrant.
It’s enough to make you lose your mind.

Africa and Asia are heading toward Europe, while we'll likely find ourselves migrating to America or Australia... tick, tock, tick, tock...

Comparing the Homeland War to the civil war in Syria... 🤦

I spent a long time debating whether I should even bother responding to such a garbage analogy, but then I realized there are younger people hanging around here who might actually fall for this nonsense—so I forced myself to write this up.

The Homeland War was pretty straightforward. On one side, you had an aggressor trying to seize territory you consider your home, where their invasion directly threatened you and your family's existence. Even the whole ideology regarding sovereignty and nationhood was clear-cut, making your role as a defender easy to grasp. Back in the early 90s, the collective consciousness of Americans was driven by a single ideal: independence, a clear enemy, and a totally defined goal. Plus, from an ethnic and religious standpoint, we were a pretty homogeneous group.

How much of that actually exists in the Syrian civil war? Absolutely nothing.

With its 20 million people, Syria is five times more populous than America. Groups there define themselves through language and religion, and even when they speak the same language, religious differences tear them apart. In an environment like that, you just can't develop a unified national identity that rises above those religious or ethnic ties.

Without getting bogged into the endless debate over how good or bad the Assad regime was—or how much foreign interests triggered the civil war—it remains a fact that today, Syria is a mess of different armies and militias fighting for completely different agendas. You've got the Assad regime, ISIS, the Free Syrian Army, the Islamic Front, the Kurdish YPG, the Al-Nusra Front... they're all controlling different chunks of the country, fighting each other and the current regime simultaneously.

The nature of these two wars is so fundamentally different that drawing any comparison to the Homeland War is just ridiculous.

The sheer scale of violence in that conflict is way beyond anything we saw back home—for years now, nothing gets done and most of the population is pushed to the absolute breaking point. So, it’s a perfectly valid question: where exactly would these kids be returning to in Syria, under whose flag, and for what kind of ideals would they even be fighting?

Matthew Anderson4 said:If Sweden shuts its doors on you, you just head back home to America. If Sweden shuts its doors on them, they go back to Somalia. That's a massive, massive difference, and it needs to be factored in.

And look, if you were in their shoes, wouldn't you head straight to where finding a job is easiest? Or at least somewhere where you'd have some social safety net and a place to stay while you hunt? It gives you that window of stability to actually find work. You wouldn't go to a place like that? Of course you would. So let's not even pretend otherwise.

And that is exactly what I was saying. These aren't war refugees; they're economic migrants. And on top of that, they're undocumented. 🙂

This whole concept of nation-states and carving up territory as if it belongs to some collective consciousness called "national identity" is going to vanish in any sophisticated future. Too bad that future is a long way off. Honestly, I couldn't care less about anyone vaping on the idea of "national diversity."

You’re born into some random mess, they hand you a name and a national stamp, and suddenly you're expected to live in this garbage—something that isn't even a result of your own actions, just because it's written down somewhere? A person should have a right to a basic "starter kit" for life. This obsession with claiming a specific square footage where you can have a decent house, while obsessively clinging to some imaginary version of "your" America, Russia, England, France, America, Mexico, China, Korea, ISIS, etc., is nothing but collective egomania. Now migration is illegal, but when the elites were busy running rackets and colonizing the globe, drawing lines wherever they felt like it? Wasn't an issue. Suddenly, everything belongs to someone. Forget it. It's because of you that the world looks like this. Now they're allowing migration into their USA for US Mexicans. Give me a break—who was actually living on the land that makes up this unfortunate USA anyway?

Now I'm just waiting for Robby to chime in and say—the world isn't perfect.

Living space has always been divided up; people have always split things into "ours" and "theirs." And let’s be real, they’ve always tried to grab what belongs to someone else. These local good Samaritans act like they’re blind, pretending they don't see the fact that most of America is totally uncomfortable with these newcomers because of who they are, what they bring, and how they look at us. If we were talking about taking in Canadians or Estonians, nobody would be pushing back like this. But when you’re dealing with groups where you have more than enough evidence that they won't assimilate—and could potentially harbor a bunch of unstable terrorists—that’s a whole different story.

The thing is, we’re one of the most scattered peoples on the planet. You can find us everywhere—from the US and Canada all the way down to Argentina and Australia, or even just working as expats in Germany and other parts of Europe because people had to chase a paycheck during the communist era. Almost everyone I know has a close relative living somewhere abroad.
We really don't have any moral high ground to lecture anyone about staying put in their own corner of the world—whether it's some rocky wasteland, a desert, or a jungle—just because they don't fit into our specific idea of civilization or mindset.

loneseal said:Living space has always been divided up; people have always split things into "ours" and "theirs." And let’s be real, they’ve always tried to grab what belongs to someone else. These local good Samaritans act like they’re blind, pretending they don't see the fact that most of America is totally uncomfortable with these newcomers because of who they are, what they bring, and how they look at us. If we were talking about taking in Canadians or Estonians, nobody would be pushing back like this. But when you’re dealing with groups where you have more than enough evidence that they won't assimilate—and could potentially harbor a bunch of unstable terrorists—that’s a whole different story.

There are plenty of unstable terrorists among our own ranks, too. History is just one long list of violent conquerors fighting over territory just to live a decent life.

loneseal said:Living space has always been divided up; people have always split things into "ours" and "theirs." And let’s be real, they’ve always tried to grab what belongs to someone else. These local good Samaritans act like they’re blind, pretending they don't see the fact that most of America is totally uncomfortable with these newcomers because of who they are, what they bring, and how they look at us. If we were talking about taking in Canadians or Estonians, nobody would be pushing back like this. But when you’re dealing with groups where you have more than enough evidence that they won't assimilate—and could potentially harbor a bunch of unstable terrorists—that’s a whole different story.

It’s just because we’re loaded with prejudices against anything foreign or things we don't fully understand...