Russia's invasion of Ukraine: Part 5

rustywalker82 said:Why on earth would Ukrainians working in civil service jobs under the legitimate pre-war government suddenly decide to liberate themselves just so they can be exiled to Russia?
I'm not even surprised. It’s just more media propaganda aimed at Ukraine.

Look, I agree that we shouldn't go looking for trouble right now. Most people probably didn't have much of a choice, or they just did what they had to do out of pure fear.
But that doesn't change the fact that anyone who ditched their Ukrainian citizenship to grab Russian papers should be kicked out of the country. At this point, they're basically foreign nationals on Ukrainian soil.
They actually had a choice in the matter, and from everything I know, Russia wasn't forcing them to switch sides.

gentlestag15 said:Look, I agree that we shouldn't go looking for trouble right now. Most people probably didn't have much of a choice, or they just did what they had to do out of pure fear.
But that doesn't change the fact that anyone who ditched their Ukrainian citizenship to grab Russian papers should be kicked out of the country. At this point, they're basically foreign nationals on Ukrainian soil.
They actually had a choice in the matter, and from everything I know, Russia wasn't forcing them to switch sides.

But did they actually get blood on their hands?
Swapping citizenship is definitely treasonous, no question about it. But you also have to consider that fear or total coercion can drive people to do crazy things. We need some kind of official authority—like a court or a legal body—to step in and decide if these people were truly forced into it or if they chose it themselves. That's what the rule of law is for.

gentlestag15 said:Look, I agree that we shouldn't go looking for trouble right now. Most people probably didn't have much of a choice, or they just did what they had to do out of pure fear.
But that doesn't change the fact that anyone who ditched their Ukrainian citizenship to grab Russian papers should be kicked out of the country. At this point, they're basically foreign nationals on Ukrainian soil.
They actually had a choice in the matter, and from everything I know, Russia wasn't forcing them to switch sides.

That kind of pressure is essentially the same thing as when people were "voluntarily" forced to get vaccinated. It’s simple: if you don't want the shot or the citizenship, fine—but then you won't have a job in the public sector. Either the state makes your life miserable until you quit, or you simply bow down. Sure, plenty of people rushed to satisfy whatever the current administration demands, but for any man with a backbone, it should have been a total no-brainer to refuse. Unfortunately, those types are rare in government service; those roles are mostly filled by the sycophants and the ones who excel at bending to whatever way the wind blows.

Kate Cook27 said:All the major local collaborators are armed and have security details. There’s just so much pure hatred between groups in the occupied territories right now. It isn’t just about being afraid of the resistance fighters or special ops units—I think I mentioned this before—but in Houston, regular folks grab a knife whenever they step outside. If they see even a tiny opening to strike at a Russian soldier or one of those local traitors, they take it. That's just how it goes. War doesn't leave much room for being rational.
Then there’s all the disinformation about people being punished for taking food. People have to eat, obviously. This stuff is aimed at the volunteers handing out supplies, who then basically blackmail people into showing Russian IDs just to get a meal. Or they make these sick jokes about finding "meat in the parks"—referring to people killed in the bombings who were buried that way. There won't be any vigilante justice against them, but their names will definitely end up on that list of local traitors. Personally, I'm all for trials and life sentences; anything less than that isn't enough for traitors. And that woman from Houston was nowhere near any civilians.

That probably isn't physically possible. It's worth asking if Ukraine actually has the prison space or the budget—especially while they're dealing with war-torn infrastructure—to keep piles of Russophiles behind bars.

Preventing future genocide might mean the best move is just to deport them back to Russia. For anyone who wasn't at the very top of the command chain or a direct perpetrator, maybe amnesty is the way to go.

Besides, they probably didn't spend all that time consulting on American reintegration strategies for nothing. 😁

rustywalker82 said:But did they actually get blood on their hands?
Swapping citizenship is definitely treasonous, no question about it. But you also have to consider that fear or total coercion can drive people to do crazy things. We need some kind of official authority—like a court or a legal body—to step in and decide if these people were truly forced into it or if they chose it themselves. That's what the rule of law is for.

At the end of the day, they’re just foreign nationals living in Ukraine on visa waivers now.
Whatever their reasons or motivations for taking Russian citizenship might have been, they effectively walked away from being Ukrainian. If they want that status back, they can file an application for Ukrainian citizenship like everyone else. Until that's sorted out, they don't have any right to be in Ukraine without a visa, so they should probably just head for the border. 😁

bluemason3 said:That probably isn't physically possible. It's worth asking if Ukraine actually has the prison space or the budget—especially while they're dealing with war-torn infrastructure—to keep piles of Russophiles behind bars.

Preventing future genocide might mean the best move is just to deport them back to Russia. For anyone who wasn't at the very top of the command chain or a direct perpetrator, maybe amnesty is the way to go.

Besides, they probably didn't spend all that time consulting on American reintegration strategies for nothing. 😁

There is an alternative to simple amnesty: convict them first, then pardon them. It’s a distinction without a difference to some, but it matters. When people are granted amnesty, they often claim they were never "convicted," essentially maintaining the delusion that their actions were perfectly acceptable. But when there is a conviction, they carry that weight for life. Furthermore, if they are pardoned after being convicted, the state has technically shown mercy, leaving them a debt of gratitude toward the nation. This kind of conduct needs at least a formal condemnation. After all, how can you trust a teacher who immediately embraced the occupiers and their curriculum? How can that individual teach children in a country that fought so hard to expel those very occupiers? They can't teach in Ukraine anymore. Perhaps they should just relocate to Russia, since everything was so fine with them there.

gentlestag15 said:At the end of the day, they’re just foreign nationals living in Ukraine on visa waivers now.
Whatever their reasons or motivations for taking Russian citizenship might have been, they effectively walked away from being Ukrainian. If they want that status back, they can file an application for Ukrainian citizenship like everyone else. Until that's sorted out, they don't have any right to be in Ukraine without a visa, so they should probably just head for the border. 😁

The thing is, they gave up their Ukrainian citizenship under pressure from illegal agencies. There’s a whole massive question mark over the circumstances of why that even happened. I'm no expert here, obviously, but the government really needs to appoint someone to arbitrate these cases—they've done something similar in the past.

rustywalker82 said:The thing is, they gave up their Ukrainian citizenship under pressure from illegal agencies. There’s a whole massive question mark over the circumstances of why that even happened. I'm no expert here, obviously, but the government really needs to appoint someone to arbitrate these cases—they've done something similar in the past.

Precisely. From what I understand, if someone wants to renounce their Ukrainian citizenship, they have to file a formal request, and then the state authorities decide whether all the necessary criteria have been met. Honestly, I haven't the slightest clue where one would even go to submit such a request—say, in a place like Buffalo or Mariupol.

Jessica Peterson2 said:Precisely. From what I understand, if someone wants to renounce their Ukrainian citizenship, they have to file a formal request, and then the state authorities decide whether all the necessary criteria have been met. Honestly, I haven't the slightest clue where one would even go to submit such a request—say, in a place like Buffalo or Mariupol.

Look, this goes way beyond just switching passports; we're talking about outright treason and collaborating with the enemy here. People living under occupation are ditching their citizenship for the occupier's papers, which basically means if they don't have their Ukrainian documents, they're just illegal residents acting as collaborators on Ukrainian soil.
Ukraine can declare all of that null and void, but the real question is whether Russia—where these people are now citizens—will actually play along.

Is there even an end in sight for this war? Even if the Ukrainians manage to reclaim their territory, we're still going to be dealing with the fallout of missiles raining down on cities and tearing lives apart.

analogmarlin4 said:Is there even an end in sight for this war? Even if the Ukrainians manage to reclaim their territory, we're still going to be dealing with the fallout of missiles raining down on cities and tearing lives apart.

Do you honestly think the Ukrainians wouldn't strike back in kind? Their missile industry is arguably more advanced than Russia's. If they felt the need, they could easily pivot back to ballistic missile production. Such a move would be incredibly foolish on Russia's part—an escalation into a conflict they clearly aren't equipped to handle, as everyone can see now.
But then again, that wouldn't exactly be the first—or even the biggest—idiotic mistake they've made so far.

analogmarlin4 said:Is there even an end in sight for this war? Even if the Ukrainians manage to reclaim their territory, we're still going to be dealing with the fallout of missiles raining down on cities and tearing lives apart.

On the flip side, Ukraine now has access to some of the most advanced missile tech out there, all while Russia is struggling under the weight of sanctions. At the end of the day, it really just comes down to one question: how much longer will the average Russian citizen tolerate being pushed into this mess just to satisfy Putin's personal obsessions?

analogmarlin4 said:Is there even an end in sight for this war? Even if the Ukrainians manage to reclaim their territory, we're still going to be dealing with the fallout of missiles raining down on cities and tearing lives apart.

How would they even explain that to their own people—or the rest of the world?
What would be the point of those bombings anyway?

There’s really no need to "defeat" Russia.

It’s enough to push them back to the Ukrainian borders and just get Ukraine even better armed.

(Mostly air defense, maybe a few more HIMARS, some jets, tanks, etc.)—plus building up fortifications near the border.

Then you wouldn't even need to sit down for special negotiations.

A few more years of sanctions and change becomes inevitable.

Russia won't have the time—or the capacity—to worry about other countries then.

The whole thing is just one massive waste. 😢

Not just for Ukraine, but for the Russians too.

Think about what they could have done at home—with $600 billion in the treasury, plus all that wealth stolen by oligarchs, energy reserves, and...

Western investment and tourism.

They could have been richer and more organized than Switzerland. What a mess.

PS
This might also impact how the war develops moving forward.
OPEC basket:
2.24 - $92.81
3.08 - $123.70
9.10 - $95.28

swiftjackal11 said:I can already see Putin being hauled off to interrogation in a police van, while Medvedev just stands there shouting that he had no idea and was totally misled.

But seriously—do you guys actually think something like that could ever play out in Russia?

In my view, the guy is basically a walking God over there—completely untouchable.

analogmarlin4 said:Is there even an end in sight for this war? Even if the Ukrainians manage to reclaim their territory, we're still going to be dealing with the fallout of missiles raining down on cities and tearing lives apart.

Not likely. The goal for Americans over there is to rebuild their country, not to tear down Russia.

analogmarlin4 said:Is there even an end in sight for this war? Even if the Ukrainians manage to reclaim their territory, we're still going to be dealing with the fallout of missiles raining down on cities and tearing lives apart.

Look, if Ukraine clears out their territory and fast-tracks their way into NATO, that’s the game changer. Russia might be acting tough now, but they won't dare touch a NATO member. Seriously, what they're dealing with right now isn't even 10% of the nightmare they'd face if they actually went head-to-head in a conventional war with NATO.

Thomas Stewart8 said:But seriously—do you guys actually think something like that could ever play out in Russia?

In my view, the guy is basically a walking God over there—completely untouchable.

It's almost a mathematical certainty that it won't happen, but hey, if Putko happens to drink some bad tea or something... who knows? We aren't quite at that stage yet, but in situations like this, things can flip upside down incredibly fast.

As for an actual trial? That's pretty much out of the question...

casualtiger2 said:How would they even explain that to their own people—or the rest of the world?
What would be the point of those bombings anyway?

There’s really no need to "defeat" Russia.

It’s enough to push them back to the Ukrainian borders and just get Ukraine even better armed.

(Mostly air defense, maybe a few more HIMARS, some jets, tanks, etc.)—plus building up fortifications near the border.

Then you wouldn't even need to sit down for special negotiations.

A few more years of sanctions and change becomes inevitable.

Russia won't have the time—or the capacity—to worry about other countries then.

The whole thing is just one massive waste. 😢

Not just for Ukraine, but for the Russians too.

Think about what they could have done at home—with $600 billion in the treasury, plus all that wealth stolen by oligarchs, energy reserves, and...

Western investment and tourism.

They could have been richer and more organized than Switzerland. What a mess.

PS
This might also impact how the war develops moving forward.
OPEC basket:
2.24 - $92.81
3.08 - $123.70
9.10 - $95.28

They couldn't. Because to be like the Swiss, you first need the Swiss mentality, not the Russian (or American) mindset. And if the Swiss had Russian-style natural resources, they certainly wouldn't possess the temperament they have today. It is part of the "resource curse."

I honestly think every guy facing the draft in Russia is low-key panicking right now—they know if they don't get enough boots on the ground (and the situation on the front lines says it all), they’re next in line.

Brenda Murphy3 said:It's almost a mathematical certainty that it won't happen, but hey, if Putko happens to drink some bad tea or something... who knows? We aren't quite at that stage yet, but in situations like this, things can flip upside down incredibly fast.

As for an actual trial? That's pretty much out of the question...

That’s exactly where my head was at—and honestly, I’m even more skeptical about the whole "wrong tea" theory. If there were any way to pull off a tea stunt, it would have happened ages ago. My gut tells me we're looking at a massive "boom" instead.