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Home › Society › Politics › War in Ukraine › Russia's invasion of Ukraine: Part 5

Russia's invasion of Ukraine: Part 5

Started by Charles Ross3 · · 👁 387 views · 9.2K replies

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Participants Charles Ross3rowdytiger13electrichawk94nimblemoose2Noah Ward2George Robinson43Larry Wilson25Larry Walker24Amanda Allen4Noah Sanchez2Paul Thomas46Jessica Peterson2Nancy Gomez26Nathan Evans78William Anderson5electricsurfer47gentlestag15wiredseal7Thomas Nelson25Donna Harris11Nicholas WatsonJack Kelly5Carol Johnson21Kate Cook27 …
casualtiger2 casualtiger2 Regular
330 messages
joined Apr 2022
#6781 ·
Klotzen:
"Let's talk weaponry. The only things we haven't actually seen in action are those long-awaited F-22 Raptors and both versions of the M1 Abrams—everything else is being used in mass quantities. We sit here debating whether using ATACMS counts as an escalation, meanwhile Russia is throwing every missile they have at the problem—Tomahawks, Kalibrs, Tomahawks, S-300s. Since Putin has already kicked off mobilization, the US needs to help Ukraine start hitting logistics deep inside Russian territory. There’s no more waiting around; in a few months, we'll see those Russian reservists flooding the front lines. They need to hit the rail hubs where supplies are loaded and take out railway overpasses in border areas like Belgorod. Force the Russians to rely on trucks—we saw near Kyiv how much they struggle with that. It would effectively neutralize those 300k new troops before they even arrive.

Russia can't just pummel Kyiv—and honestly, the reason NATO members aren't doing more is simply because they don't have enough of these advanced missiles. They still strike Kyiv, sure, but it's not every day; they wait until they've scraped together enough calibers and Tomahawks. As for their air force? We know now they aren't all that impressive. It's not even that they failed to crush Ukrainian air defenses; it's likely they haven't even tried. Since the war started, they've basically been flying low to dodge air defenses, which makes bombing Kyiv impossible—especially now that Ukrainians have plenty of Stingers and other gear to swat low-flying planes out of the sky. It's not that they won't hit Kyiv—it's that they can't.

The UK is currently training 10k Ukrainians. The program lasts about 120 days, and the first 5,000 trained soldiers started heading back this September. There are plans to expand it, too. As for the rest, most countries keep the details under wraps, except for when they donate specific weapons. You've seen reports of Ukrainians training in Poland and Germany, and about ten days ago, a training agreement was signed with Denmark—though they aren't sharing the specifics on numbers.

What the West will do first is start placing massive orders directly from manufacturers. This war is clearly dragging into next year, and probably well into 2024. If they order new batches of weapons and ammo for Ukraine right now, they'll be ready for shipment by spring, meaning they won't have to just bleed their own stockpiles dry. It also sends a clear message to Putin: you're fighting against Western industrial capacity, not just what happens to be sitting in a warehouse. I really hope Macron has realized his mistake with that "peace-seeking" policy toward Putin—Putin doesn't care about peace; he wants an empire.
Sandra Harris2 Sandra Harris2 Active Member
125 messages
joined Feb 2010
#6782 ·
analogbear70 said:The West's response here is to flood Ukraine with weapons, whereas our approach was an embargo and talks. Who was sending us aid packages? Nobody. I'll say it plainly: the West (meaning the USA and the UK) genuinely seems focused on bleeding Russia dry without giving a damn about what happens to Ukraine in the process. Russia is the aggressor, which makes them dangerous if they're strong, but even more unpredictable if they're weak. That's a dynamic we need to keep in mind.

Are you Italian?
I see this kind of nonsense all over their news sites.
Things like, "we must stop sending weapons to end the war," or "NATO is exploiting Ukraine." According to them, the solution is for Ukraine to just stop defending itself and everything will be fine.

You can only negotiate with someone who actually wants to talk. I don't know how that isn't obvious.
hiddeneagle98 hiddeneagle98 Regular
300 messages
joined Nov 2023
#6783 ·
analogbear70 said:The West's response here is to flood Ukraine with weapons, whereas our approach was an embargo and talks. Who was sending us aid packages? Nobody. I'll say it plainly: the West (meaning the USA and the UK) genuinely seems focused on bleeding Russia dry without giving a damn about what happens to Ukraine in the process. Russia is the aggressor, which makes them dangerous if they're strong, but even more unpredictable if they're weak. That's a dynamic we need to keep in mind.


It’s funny how these "well-meaning" Russians are supposedly so deeply concerned about the fate of the Ukrainians; it’s clearly their biggest priority. They take such meticulous care to carpet bomb civilian neighborhoods just to make sure absolutely no one is left standing.

Seriously, it's hilarious. To all you guys acting like some kind of patriots when you're really just playing parts: they aren't interested in anything other than wiping everything out—the people, the language, the entire state.

While the "evil" USA and UK are allegedly trying to maliciously weaken or even defeat the KGBMafijas-run state where political opposition gets poisoned with Polonium, the "benevolent" KGBMafijas are just trying to finally solve the massive global problem of the Ukrainian state, its people, and its language existing at all.

After all, the benevolent KGBMafijas are a "superpower," and clearly, that gives them the divine right to commit genocide within their own "sphere of influence." That’s how the world has always worked, so I don't know why everyone is suddenly pretending to be so morally upright.
hiddeneagle98 hiddeneagle98 Regular
300 messages
joined Nov 2023
#6784 ·
Sandra Harris2 said:Are you Italian?
I see this kind of nonsense all over their news sites.
Things like, "we must stop sending weapons to end the war," or "NATO is exploiting Ukraine." According to them, the solution is for Ukraine to just stop defending itself and everything will be fine.

You can only negotiate with someone who actually wants to talk. I don't know how that isn't obvious.


It's pretty obvious that Russia has been busy buying off a lot of journalists and media outlets over there.
hollowdriver13 hollowdriver13 Regular
705 messages
joined Feb 2022
#6785 ·
analogbear70;94616059 said:The West's big move here is just flooding Ukraine with weapons, whereas our approach was all about embargoes and sitting at the negotiating table. Who was sending us donations? Nobody. Honestly, I think the West (meaning the USA and the UK) really just wants to drain Russia dry without giving a single damn about what actually happens to Ukraine in the middle of it all. Russia is the aggressor, sure, but they're dangerous if they're strong—and arguably even more unpredictable if they're weakened down. We really need to be careful about how we handle this situation.

You've got a point there. This current trickle of supplies is pretty weak for a situation like this. Like you said, we should probably be looking at high-flow delivery and just mass-producing Abrams, Bradleys, M1 Abrams, Marder, and F-15s, then throwing in some ATACMS as the cherry on top. ☕
Sandra Harris2 Sandra Harris2 Active Member
125 messages
joined Feb 2010
#6786 ·
hiddeneagle98 said:It's pretty obvious that Russia has been busy buying off a lot of journalists and media outlets over there.

Phew.
You have no idea how right you are. The New York Times, which basically acts as the official mouthpiece for the Five Star Movement, is a breeding ground for these kinds of comments—anti-NATO and, to put it mildly, sympathetic toward Russia. One of the founders actually quit the paper recently because he couldn't stomach the editorial direction, especially after they refused to publish his weekly column because it didn't fit the paper's general tone.
And the comment sections under those articles? Absolute bottom of the barrel. Compared to them, the ones on Index are a walk in the park.
gentlestag15 gentlestag15 Regular
280 messages
joined May 2024
#6787 ·
Sandra Harris2 said:Are you Italian?
I see this kind of nonsense all over their news sites.
Things like, "we must stop sending weapons to end the war," or "NATO is exploiting Ukraine." According to them, the solution is for Ukraine to just stop defending itself and everything will be fine.

You can only negotiate with someone who actually wants to talk. I don't know how that isn't obvious.

History repeats itself; it was the exact same thing when Hitler invaded his neighbors
using the same talking points
View on twitter
Larry Sanchez7 Larry Sanchez7 Active Member
56 messages
joined Feb 2017
#6788 ·
Since everyone’s talking about panic in Russia, does anyone actually have footage of people fleeing or civilians storming airports and borders?
They’ll either spontaneously hit the streets tonight or they’ll just lose their minds...

Back in the day, if 100,000 people marched in Washington, D.C. just to defend some radio station, then you could easily see half a million hitting the streets in Moscow today. But they won't. So, honestly, who even cares...
hollowdriver13 hollowdriver13 Regular
705 messages
joined Feb 2022
#6789 ·
A flight to Washington, D.C. was $150 yesterday, jumped to $1400 three hours ago, and just hit $2800 twenty minutes ago.

And yeah, those are all for tomorrow—looks like Booking.com is pulling some serious overtime.

https://twitter.com/NeilPHauer/statu...23265427656706

https://twitter.com/NeilPHauer/statu...71153553850368
Timothy Williams5 Timothy Williams5 Regular
325 messages
joined Jun 2022
#6790 ·
Twitter analysis:

1) At this stage, there are far more unknowns than certainties.
2) This stands as one of the most significant and high-stakes political gambles Putin has ever taken.
3) He is still dragging his feet on implementing a full-scale mobilization.
4) It’s essentially a tacit admission that the Russian war effort hasn't gone according to plan and that a shift in strategy was unavoidable.

A great deal depends on how this directive is actually rolled out. While the pool of combat-experienced reservists is limited, it could potentially include everyone currently deployed in Syria. You also have to take Lloyd Austin's counterparts in the Kremlin with a grain of salt—they have a notorious reputation for being unreliable with their data, so don't mistake their numbers for reality. 2/

There are two immediate consequences to watch for here: first, current conscripts serving in the Russian military will likely be pushed toward the front lines in Ukraine; second, volunteers serving on short-term contracts will find themselves barred from renewing them. 3/

In the short term, these two moves might just be enough to prevent the Russian forces from collapsing entirely. If they don't act, the manpower issues in Russia could turn catastrophic this winter, especially since many of those short-term volunteers probably won't be interested in signing on for more. 4/

The grim reality is that the war on the Russian side is increasingly being fought by people who simply do not want to be there. We are going to see an even wider gap in morale, unit cohesion, and other vital metrics between the Ukrainian forces and the Russian ones. 5/

It’s a fair point, and we'll have to wait and see how the order is executed on the ground. Russia might start by mobilizing only a small fraction of reservists under the narrow criteria mentioned by Lloyd Austin's equivalents, gradually ramping it up as circumstances dictate. 6/

Russia has effectively dismantled parts of its old Soviet-style mobilization system, which used to rely on specific cadre units equipped with officers and gear ready to absorb conscripts. Instead, those conscripts and reservists are being used as mere filler to plug holes in the Russian units already engaged in Ukraine. 7/

Under the old system, every regiment and brigade should have had a dedicated conscript battalion, complete with its own officers and contract personnel. But given how severe the Russian manpower shortages have become, I suspect most of those officers and specialists have already been deployed. I honestly doubt many of those battalions remain coherent units at this point. 8/

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1...201538561.html
gentlestag15 gentlestag15 Regular
280 messages
joined May 2024
#6791 ·
https://twitter.com/Flash_news_ua/st...082497/photo/1
The prosecutors in Moscow are threatening people with 15 years behind bars just for showing up at anti-mobilization protests.
wearyheron5 wearyheron5 Member
34 messages
joined May 2022
#6792 ·
Sandra Harris2 said:Phew.
You have no idea how right you are. The New York Times, which basically acts as the official mouthpiece for the Five Star Movement, is a breeding ground for these kinds of comments—anti-NATO and, to put it mildly, sympathetic toward Russia. One of the founders actually quit the paper recently because he couldn't stomach the editorial direction, especially after they refused to publish his weekly column because it didn't fit the paper's general tone.
And the comment sections under those articles? Absolute bottom of the barrel. Compared to them, the ones on Index are a walk in the park.

The New York Times is so aggressively against NATO and the USA that one of their own journalists, Massimo fin, actually wrote a column arguing that during WW2, the Americans were essentially the true occupiers and the Germans were the liberators. That’s exactly why Furio Colombo, one of the founders, quit. Note: Colombo was born in 1931, so he actually lived through Mussolini's terror and the German occupation himself.

I won't go too far off-topic, but here is what English Wikipedia says about The New York Times, since this is still technically a thread about the Russian invasion of Ukraine (my emphasis):

Following The start of The 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine, the paper took a pro-Russian stance, causing the resignation of long-time contributor Furio Colombo.
(source)

And yeah, the comment sections are so bad that even the New York Post wouldn't be ashamed of them.
Kate Cook27 Kate Cook27 Regular
557 messages
joined Jun 2022
#6793 ·
analogbear70 said:The West's response here is to flood Ukraine with weapons, whereas our approach was an embargo and talks. Who was sending us aid packages? Nobody. I'll say it plainly: the West (meaning the USA and the UK) genuinely seems focused on bleeding Russia dry without giving a damn about what happens to Ukraine in the process. Russia is the aggressor, which makes them dangerous if they're strong, but even more unpredictable if they're weak. That's a dynamic we need to keep in mind.

Not every war is built the same—I really feel for the folks here who had to deal with that embargo.
A huge thank you to the USA, the UK, and everyone else standing behind Ukraine, providing the weapons, the training, and everything else needed. As for what happens to Ukraine once the fighting stops? Well, that's a problem for the Ukrainians to solve—the priority right now is helping while the war is actually happening. Let's be real: it's all about interests. The West isn't helping Ukraine out of pure altruism—we all know that. Russia is already struggling, and a weakened Russia could be quite volatile. Why should the USA, the UK, and others obsess over Russia when they should be focusing on themselves? The Russians could have used the money they spent killing "their own Ukrainian brothers" to help the poor back home in Russia instead. It's not the West's fault that the White House and leadership in Moscow pursue policies designed to deny Ukrainians their nationhood, identity, culture, and history... or that they want to seize territory and force Russification on people. It's not the West's fault that Russia seems stuck in the past, acting like it's still the era of the Holodomor where they can kill millions of Ukrainians and then tell the survivors, "You're Russian now, speak only Russian, and take these Russianized last names"—expecting people to just shut up and accept it. Well, Ukrainians aren't shutting up this time, and I'm grateful to anyone stepping up to help. I'll be looking forward to seeing some "Russian goodwill" soon when they finally leave Kherson 🎉. But mostly, I'll be celebrating when the very last Russian occupier leaves Ukraine 🎉 🎉. As for what happens with a weakened Moscow—who knows. Putin might keep waving those nukes around, though very few people actually fear him anymore. The people in the White House—well, the Kremlin—can figure out their own mess; nobody else is responsible for their mistakes. They can go ahead and try to build their "new world order." Clearly, there won't be a place for them in it, since they basically engineered their own exit.
Kate Cook27 Kate Cook27 Regular
557 messages
joined Jun 2022
#6794 ·
gentlestag15 said:https://twitter.com/Flash_news_ua/st...082497/photo/1
The prosecutors in Moscow are threatening people with 15 years behind bars just for showing up at anti-mobilization protests.

Things are looking even darker than they were during the Stalin era.
driftingfox66 driftingfox66 Active Member
57 messages
joined Aug 2017
#6795 ·
And who’s actually going to revolt? Kryuchkov, Yanayev, and Yazov—no matter how much you dislike them—weren't exactly acting like they were in 1991. Those guys were ready to spill way more blood just to keep their seats.

As for Putin, I've got my doubts.
Timothy Williams5 Timothy Williams5 Regular
325 messages
joined Jun 2022
#6796 ·
The former Mufti of Ukraine is urging Russian Muslims to resist mobilization:
To the Muslims of Russia: whenever your muftis, sheikhs, or imams call you to arms, do not answer. They are simply sending you here to die.
https://twitter.com/clashreport/stat...dCMaevAPLkoAuA
swiftjackal11 swiftjackal11 Regular
271 messages
joined May 2018
#6797 ·
Kate Cook27 said:Things are looking even darker than they were during the Stalin era.

Honestly, I'd rather take my chances in prison than be used as cannon fodder. At least you can walk out of a cell in a few months, right around the time Russia finally surrenders.
Nancy Gomez26 Nancy Gomez26 Regular
787 messages
joined Jan 2018
#6798 ·
gentlestag15 said:https://twitter.com/Flash_news_ua/st...082497/photo/1
The prosecutors in Moscow are threatening people with 15 years behind bars just for showing up at anti-mobilization protests.

We are approaching that specific moment where some pundit on television finally calls for mass protests on live air. It is that historical pivot point—much like when East German TV suggested the Wall could simply be crossed freely. Because once the masses actually move in unison... no amount of riot police or heavy-handed enforcement can hold them back (those forces usually end up joining the protesters once the crowd becomes sufficiently large and resolute). By morning, even a 15-year sentence might feel like a light penalty for those currently clinging to power.
Kenneth Cruz67 Kenneth Cruz67 Regular
376 messages
joined Oct 2017
#6799 ·
hollowdriver13 said:A flight to Washington, D.C. was $150 yesterday, jumped to $1400 three hours ago, and just hit $2800 twenty minutes ago.

And yeah, those are all for tomorrow—looks like Booking.com is pulling some serious overtime.

https://twitter.com/NeilPHauer/statu...23265427656706

https://twitter.com/NeilPHauer/statu...71153553850368

At this rate, maybe we should just start calling in bomb threats on planes to get some attention.🤣
hollowdriver13 hollowdriver13 Regular
705 messages
joined Feb 2022
#6800 ·
Following Turkey and Kazakhstan, both Vietnam and Armenia have officially stopped accepting Russian Visa cards for transactions.

https://www.rferl.org/a/kazakhstan-b.../32044430.html

https://www.vietnamnews.net/news/272...tem---izvestia

It’s funny how those Putin enthusiasts here didn't try to convince us that losing Mastercard and Visa wouldn't hurt the Russians? They kept claiming they had their own system, but if anything, this "Mir" thing is just going to squeeze those card companies even more by carving out its own slice of the market. 🕺

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