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Sanctions on Russia

Started by Richard Wilson4 · · 👁 342 views · 9.5K replies

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Douglas Sanchez5 Douglas Sanchez5 Member
12 messages
joined Feb 2022
#2401 ·
Anthony Hill5 said:Oh, how incredibly considerate they were. Did they bother to ask the Baltic states or the Poles for their opinion regarding Nord Stream? Of course not.

How foolish and naive German policy regarding Nord Stream 2 truly was has become painfully obvious to everyone today. Angela Merkel will be remembered in history as one of the most naive politicians of the modern era, and her policy of appeasement will go down in the annals of history right alongside Chamberlain's.

The Minsk agreement was a compromise that didn't strip Ukraine of its sovereignty, but rather restored it. In the Donbas, 83% voted for Ukrainian independence from Russia (the USSR), only to have 90% vote for autonomy just a few years later—though decades have already passed since then. It isn't all black and white, even regarding Russia; naturally, Russia politically supported the demand for such autonomy because they are themselves a federation (the Russian Federation). How much they were bluffing to achieve their actual criminal objectives is another matter entirely, but that has nothing to do with Germany or France.

The Minsk agreement was no compromise whatsoever; it was forcing Ukraine, under the threat of a Russian gun, to sign Minsk just so Germany and France could continue enjoying the blessings of peace and prosperity.

With that agreement, the Germans and the French essentially handed a handful of Putin's mafia thugs from the Donbas veto power over critical Ukrainian matters, such as joining NATO and the EU. The Minsk agreement effectively signaled the end of Ukrainian sovereignty and independence, which is precisely why it was never actually implemented.

Eight years after Minsk, we find ourselves facing exactly this situation today, thanks again—I repeat—to the misguided, naive, and utterly senseless policy of Germany.

Now, look, mature political elites actually know what’s best for their nation—they can think long-term and run a proper cost-benefit analysis. Take the Finns, for example—they were willing to accept losing some territory and let the Soviets dictate their foreign policy during the Cold War, all to build up their nation for the long haul.

I don't think anyone in their right mind would argue that ending this war immediately—with all the extra deaths, crimes, and total destruction it would bring—is any better than waiting 15 years for Russia's energy leverage to crumble and for Putin to finally kick the bucket. Not just because of the direct leverage on the EU, but because the whole economic system based on raw material exports might collapse, potentially leading to a democratized Russia. Honestly, when personalized regimes face structural economic shifts, it’s actually the perfect recipe and opportunity to overhaul the entire system!
They knew Putin was personally obsessed with Ukraine. So, a slightly later entry into the EU or a bit slower economic growth? That's definitely a better trade-off than facing an economic meltdown that takes 15 years to recover from (just to get back to pre-war poverty levels), not to mention the lives lost and the physical and mental trauma inflicted on everyone involved.

If Zelenskyy had been more strategic, he should have just told his people the truth about the terrible choice they were facing regarding Minsk 2. Or, alternatively, he should have prepared them for war—mobilizing and training people from month eleven onward. He needed to send a clear message: it’s either Minsk 2 or it’s war. And he should've explained *why* Minsk 2 was the lesser of two evils. Maybe then the Russians wouldn't have thought they could just swoop in and take Kyiv in three days using shock tactics.

While the intelligence community was screaming about Russian troop buildups, the media coverage in Ukraine was busy obsessing over Eurovision! People were sleeping through it, thinking Putin was just bluffing. That's way too big a risk when you're leading a nation. But hey, now it's all Merkel's fault, while he acts like he's done nothing wrong at all!
David Torres2 David Torres2 Active Member
77 messages
joined May 2023
#2402 ·
Douglas Sanchez5 said:Now, look, mature political elites actually know what’s best for their nation—they can think long-term and run a proper cost-benefit analysis. Take the Finns, for example—they were willing to accept losing some territory and let the Soviets dictate their foreign policy during the Cold War, all to build up their nation for the long haul.

I don't think anyone in their right mind would argue that ending this war immediately—with all the extra deaths, crimes, and total destruction it would bring—is any better than waiting 15 years for Russia's energy leverage to crumble and for Putin to finally kick the bucket. Not just because of the direct leverage on the EU, but because the whole economic system based on raw material exports might collapse, potentially leading to a democratized Russia. Honestly, when personalized regimes face structural economic shifts, it’s actually the perfect recipe and opportunity to overhaul the entire system!
They knew Putin was personally obsessed with Ukraine. So, a slightly later entry into the EU or a bit slower economic growth? That's definitely a better trade-off than facing an economic meltdown that takes 15 years to recover from (just to get back to pre-war poverty levels), not to mention the lives lost and the physical and mental trauma inflicted on everyone involved.

If Zelenskyy had been more strategic, he should have just told his people the truth about the terrible choice they were facing regarding Minsk 2. Or, alternatively, he should have prepared them for war—mobilizing and training people from month eleven onward. He needed to send a clear message: it’s either Minsk 2 or it’s war. And he should've explained *why* Minsk 2 was the lesser of two evils. Maybe then the Russians wouldn't have thought they could just swoop in and take Kyiv in three days using shock tactics.

While the intelligence community was screaming about Russian troop buildups, the media coverage in Ukraine was busy obsessing over Eurovision! People were sleeping through it, thinking Putin was just bluffing. That's way too big a risk when you're leading a nation. But hey, now it's all Merkel's fault, while he acts like he's done nothing wrong at all!

I guess Zelenskyy thought Ukraine was too important for the West to just sit by while the Russians attacked. But honestly, I don't know what the average Ukrainian felt about the Russians before all this kicked off, or if even the Minsk 2 option was ever truly on the table.
Putin has crossed the Rubicon here. There's no turning back now; from this point on, it's nothing but victory or bust.

And there's really no point in dismissing Finland as an option. After WW2, they had plenty of time to build up their nation just like the rest of Western Europe. Seriously, try finding me one single country that emerged from communism and is thriving today.
Christian Torres3 Christian Torres3 Regular
604 messages
joined Sep 2014
#2403 ·
David Torres2 said:I guess Zelenskyy thought Ukraine was too important for the West to just sit by while the Russians attacked. But honestly, I don't know what the average Ukrainian felt about the Russians before all this kicked off, or if even the Minsk 2 option was ever truly on the table.
Putin has crossed the Rubicon here. There's no turning back now; from this point on, it's nothing but victory or bust.

And there's really no point in dismissing Finland as an option. After WW2, they had plenty of time to build up their nation just like the rest of Western Europe. Seriously, try finding me one single country that emerged from communism and is thriving today.

The Czech Republic?
David Torres2 David Torres2 Active Member
77 messages
joined May 2023
#2404 ·
Christian Torres3 said:The Czech Republic?

If they had been part of the West after WW2, they’d probably be stronger than Austria by now.
I mean, look at them—they're tucked right there between Germany and Austria, kind of like how Tennessee sits in the middle of everything, or even looking at how much certain other states are thriving lately.
Christian Torres3 Christian Torres3 Regular
604 messages
joined Sep 2014
#2405 ·
David Torres2 said:If they had been part of the West after WW2, they’d probably be stronger than Austria by now.
I mean, look at them—they're tucked right there between Germany and Austria, kind of like how Tennessee sits in the middle of everything, or even looking at how much certain other states are thriving lately.

The question was "find a country that emerged from communism and is thriving." It’s not like things are bad for Poles; if we're struggling, who's to blame? We're the ones choosing these criminal organizations.
David Torres2 David Torres2 Active Member
77 messages
joined May 2023
#2406 ·
Christian Torres3 said:The question was "find a country that emerged from communism and is thriving." It’s not like things are bad for Poles; if we're struggling, who's to blame? We're the ones choosing these criminal organizations.

And there's your answer:
It was much easier to develop a nation between 1945 and 1990 than it is now. I think you probably realize that. Even the Italians managed to pull it off back then.😁

Anyway, let's not ruin the vibe—let's get back to Ukraine.

She's also arguing that after the Soviet Union collapsed, a lot of highly educated people left—
mostly Ashkenazi families moving to the US and Israel, with a second wave hitting in the late 90s.
Now, this situation is going to finish them off for good.
That’s why, in my experience, whoever takes power here just leads us straight downhill.

Personally, I see this as a massive opportunity for the US to take in maybe 100,000 to 150,000 Ukrainians and settle them down. We could give them farmland to fill up all those empty stretches in the Midwest and the Central Coast. Give it 50 years, and they'll be fully assimilated.

I've already posted this over on the refugee issue thread.
Anthony Hill5 Anthony Hill5 Regular
379 messages
joined May 2024
#2407 ·
Douglas Sanchez5 said:Now, look, mature political elites actually know what’s best for their nation—they can think long-term and run a proper cost-benefit analysis. Take the Finns, for example—they were willing to accept losing some territory and let the Soviets dictate their foreign policy during the Cold War, all to build up their nation for the long haul.

I don't think anyone in their right mind would argue that ending this war immediately—with all the extra deaths, crimes, and total destruction it would bring—is any better than waiting 15 years for Russia's energy leverage to crumble and for Putin to finally kick the bucket. Not just because of the direct leverage on the EU, but because the whole economic system based on raw material exports might collapse, potentially leading to a democratized Russia. Honestly, when personalized regimes face structural economic shifts, it’s actually the perfect recipe and opportunity to overhaul the entire system!
They knew Putin was personally obsessed with Ukraine. So, a slightly later entry into the EU or a bit slower economic growth? That's definitely a better trade-off than facing an economic meltdown that takes 15 years to recover from (just to get back to pre-war poverty levels), not to mention the lives lost and the physical and mental trauma inflicted on everyone involved.

If Zelenskyy had been more strategic, he should have just told his people the truth about the terrible choice they were facing regarding Minsk 2. Or, alternatively, he should have prepared them for war—mobilizing and training people from month eleven onward. He needed to send a clear message: it’s either Minsk 2 or it’s war. And he should've explained *why* Minsk 2 was the lesser of two evils. Maybe then the Russians wouldn't have thought they could just swoop in and take Kyiv in three days using shock tactics.

While the intelligence community was screaming about Russian troop buildups, the media coverage in Ukraine was busy obsessing over Eurovision! People were sleeping through it, thinking Putin was just bluffing. That's way too big a risk when you're leading a nation. But hey, now it's all Merkel's fault, while he acts like he's done nothing wrong at all!

Why on earth would you imagine that whoever succeeds Putin would step up and say, "Listen, dear Ukrainians, Putin was insane; we're going to tear up the Minsk protocols, so you're on your own"? Signing the Minsk agreement is a point of no return.

It is akin to expecting some future Russian leader to emerge and declare, "Here, take Crimea back." The chances of that happening are zero, if not impossible.

The Minsk agreement was forced upon the Ukrainians; it wasn't implemented because doing so would run contrary to the interests of the people and the state. Anyone who had attempted to enforce it would have been branded a traitor to the nation, likely triggering civil unrest and revolutions—which Putin would have skillfully exploited, just as he did in 2014. I highly doubt the outcome would have been any different.

By that same logic, anyone in Russia attempting to return Crimea to Ukraine would be labeled a traitor to their people.

The West should have stepped up to help Ukraine eight years ago, rather than playing blind and forcing them into compromises with a criminal regime in the Kremlin that cannot be trusted.
Sam Alvarez4 Sam Alvarez4 Regular
303 messages
joined Sep 2014
#2408 ·
Oh boy...

Berlin is stepping in to take over Gazprom's German branch, "Gazprom Germania," according to Economy Minister Robert Habeck.

The US government is moving to secure energy supplies by taking control of Gazprom's local subsidiary as announced by Robert Habeck. 18:24
Douglas Sanchez5 Douglas Sanchez5 Member
12 messages
joined Feb 2022
#2409 ·
Anthony Hill5 said:Why on earth would you imagine that whoever succeeds Putin would step up and say, "Listen, dear Ukrainians, Putin was insane; we're going to tear up the Minsk protocols, so you're on your own"? Signing the Minsk agreement is a point of no return.

It is akin to expecting some future Russian leader to emerge and declare, "Here, take Crimea back." The chances of that happening are zero, if not impossible.

The Minsk agreement was forced upon the Ukrainians; it wasn't implemented because doing so would run contrary to the interests of the people and the state. Anyone who had attempted to enforce it would have been branded a traitor to the nation, likely triggering civil unrest and revolutions—which Putin would have skillfully exploited, just as he did in 2014. I highly doubt the outcome would have been any different.

By that same logic, anyone in Russia attempting to return Crimea to Ukraine would be labeled a traitor to their people.

The West should have stepped up to help Ukraine eight years ago, rather than playing blind and forcing them into compromises with a criminal regime in the Kremlin that cannot be trusted.

Look, if there’s a change in leadership in Russia—I mean, if they actually pivot toward being a democracy and align with the West—then the Moscow 2 deal wouldn't even be a big deal. If they aren't losing territory in Donbas, all those little control tweaks Putin wants through Moscow 2 become pretty much irrelevant as long as Russia and Ukraine are finally moving in the same direction and sharing the same goals. I get it, it’s tough for them to swallow the idea that they have to wait for political shifts in Russia or deal with Moscow having way less leverage—it's frustrating!—but honestly, any of that is a million times better than an actual war.

Nobody can honestly argue that a full-blown war is better than the Moscow 2 plan. Let's be real: the general public usually has some pretty terrible takes on complex political issues—they tend to react purely on instinct, which isn't always helpful. Responsible political leaders often have to risk their entire careers to push through economic reforms that might be unpopular in the moment but are absolutely vital for the nation's future. In that same vein, making tough, unpopular calls like the Moscow 2 agreement is definitely a much better path than heading into a war.
casualtiger2 casualtiger2 Regular
330 messages
joined Apr 2022
#2410 ·
That’s all assuming the little monster was actually willing to settle for anything less than the total annihilation of Ukraine.
But he wasn't—not then and certainly not now—regardless of what Zelenskyy, Ukraine, the European Union, NATO, or anyone else might want.
The only thing is, he can't seem to get his hands on the actual execution.
Douglas Sanchez5 Douglas Sanchez5 Member
12 messages
joined Feb 2022
#2411 ·
Look, let's be real here—Putin is the one morally responsible for this whole mess, especially with that circle of paranoid nationalists he’s got surrounding him. I honestly think Zelenskyy just totally misread the room; he seemed genuinely convinced he was just bluffing his way through, never imagining he'd actually be forced to choose between two different versions of a Moscow-style surrender or an all-out war.

I just saw this killer tweet about Putin's inner circle—they basically made the same massive blunder and kicked off this insane conflict:

the unique combination of the unearned income (carbon export) and the unearned protection (Soviet-made nuclear) has produced the most arrogant, irrational, untested elite ever

https://twitter.com/Sasha_Etkind/sta...40153881776129
Gerald Chavez7 Gerald Chavez7 Active Member
173 messages
joined Apr 2021
#2412 ·
Robert Barrett6 said:Personally, I’m against it. This whole situation is already going to trigger some level of global financial crisis and leave a lot of people hungry—mostly because of the war itself, not the sanctions—especially in developing nations.

A total boycott right now would probably trigger the worst global recession we've ever seen.

But yeah, we need to switch over to alternatives as fast and painlessly as possible. Germany has run a rational fiscal policy for years, so they have plenty of room to borrow and then aggressively—but not necessarily overnight—pay it down.

So, we’re looking at the absolute worst global recession in history—coming right on the heels of that COVID-induced slump (which hit -10% if you want to get technical) and a full decade after the last major global meltdown. If we're talking worst-case scenarios, Germany might see things dip to around 3%, but for the rest of the European Union? It would almost certainly be much lower than that. The idea that Germany’s energy policy was a strategic masterstroke—until it wasn't—is a tough pill to swallow. Looking back at how things played out, it feels like we're analyzing a slow-motion train wreck where everyone thought they were driving in the right direction until the tracks just... ended. The reliance on cheap gas wasn't just a business decision; it became a fundamental pillar of their entire economic identity. It’s one of those situations where you build your whole house on a foundation that turns out to be made of sand. When the geopolitical landscape shifted, the sheer scale of the vulnerability became impossible to ignore. It wasn't just about high bills; it was about realizing that the engine powering one of the world's largest economies was essentially plugged into a single, unpredictable outlet. It’s easy to point fingers now, but at the time, the logic seemed sound enough to satisfy most analysts. You go with the cheapest, most reliable source available—that's just basic math, right? Turns out, in global politics, math doesn't always account for someone pulling the plug just to see what happens. Now, the transition isn't just an environmental necessity; it's a desperate scramble to find a new way to keep the lights on without being held hostage by a single supplier. It’s a messy, expensive lesson in why diversification matters more than a good quarterly report.

Christian Torres3 said:The Czech Republic?

It’s definitely Poland. A handful of former Eastern Bloc members—like the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Poland, and Canada—have already made their move. Wealthy nations—those high-income players on the global stage..

This graph is actually pretty fascinating:
image
David Torres2 David Torres2 Active Member
77 messages
joined May 2023
#2413 ·
Gerald Chavez7 said:So, we’re looking at the absolute worst global recession in history—coming right on the heels of that COVID-induced slump (which hit -10% if you want to get technical) and a full decade after the last major global meltdown. If we're talking worst-case scenarios, Germany might see things dip to around 3%, but for the rest of the European Union? It would almost certainly be much lower than that. The idea that Germany’s energy policy was a strategic masterstroke—until it wasn't—is a tough pill to swallow. Looking back at how things played out, it feels like we're analyzing a slow-motion train wreck where everyone thought they were driving in the right direction until the tracks just... ended. The reliance on cheap gas wasn't just a business decision; it became a fundamental pillar of their entire economic identity. It’s one of those situations where you build your whole house on a foundation that turns out to be made of sand. When the geopolitical landscape shifted, the sheer scale of the vulnerability became impossible to ignore. It wasn't just about high bills; it was about realizing that the engine powering one of the world's largest economies was essentially plugged into a single, unpredictable outlet. It’s easy to point fingers now, but at the time, the logic seemed sound enough to satisfy most analysts. You go with the cheapest, most reliable source available—that's just basic math, right? Turns out, in global politics, math doesn't always account for someone pulling the plug just to see what happens. Now, the transition isn't just an environmental necessity; it's a desperate scramble to find a new way to keep the lights on without being held hostage by a single supplier. It’s a messy, expensive lesson in why diversification matters more than a good quarterly report.

It’s definitely Poland. A handful of former Eastern Bloc members—like the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Poland, and Canada—have already made their move. Wealthy nations—those high-income players on the global stage..

This graph is actually pretty fascinating:
image

Yeah, maybe 3%... but only if they keep the gas flowing like they have been.
Bryan Booth82 Bryan Booth82 Regular
483 messages
joined Feb 2024
#2414 ·
David Torres2 said:Yeah, maybe 3%... but only if they keep the gas flowing like they have been.

The latest projections suggest a hit anywhere from -3% to -6% if they actually pull the plug on Russian gas imports.
Just for some perspective... COVID caused about a 5% hit.

Keep in mind, these are the estimates for Germany—one of the most critical economies in the entire European Union—regarding their reliance on Russian gas.

Best regards,
Dennis Price Dennis Price Active Member
86 messages
joined Mar 2022
#2415 ·
Douglas Sanchez5 said:Look, let's be real here—Putin is the one morally responsible for this whole mess, especially with that circle of paranoid nationalists he’s got surrounding him. I honestly think Zelenskyy just totally misread the room; he seemed genuinely convinced he was just bluffing his way through, never imagining he'd actually be forced to choose between two different versions of a Moscow-style surrender or an all-out war.

I just saw this killer tweet about Putin's inner circle—they basically made the same massive blunder and kicked off this insane conflict:

the unique combination of the unearned income (carbon export) and the unearned protection (Soviet-made nuclear) has produced the most arrogant, irrational, untested elite ever

https://twitter.com/Sasha_Etkind/sta...40153881776129

And here we go again. The Ukrainians knew there was no way out of this war without becoming a second Belarus, complete with the purges.
Douglas Sanchez5 Douglas Sanchez5 Member
12 messages
joined Feb 2022
#2416 ·
Dennis Price said:
And here we go again. The Ukrainians knew there was no way out of this war without becoming a second Belarus, complete with the purges.

Look, that statement doesn't really mean much on its own—not at all. I mean, just look back at what Zelenskyy and his advisors were saying right before the invasion, and then compare it to what they were saying once things actually started kicking off. They were basically telling everyone they thought the Russian troops weren't organized enough to pull off an attack, so why worry? Between the state of the media and the public polls about whether a war would even happen... it was a whole thing.

Before the invasion, the narrative was all about how Russia just wanted to bleed them economically dry, and they were even telling Americans to chill out with the "dangerous rhetoric" because it was supposedly hurting the economy. Not to mention the media landscape—everyone just seemed convinced a war wasn't coming, and the bottom line was that they didn't even start mass mobilization while the Russian military was literally gathering right on their doorstep.

I’ve been following this whole crisis-turned-catastrophe very closely—really deep-diving into it—and from everything I’ve seen, the Ukrainians really didn't see this attack coming. It's not that they didn't do *any* prep work, of course, but they just didn't think a full-scale military action was likely, nor did they think they'd have to make such massive concessions.

If they had mentally prepared the country for war back in November—you know, through mass mobilization, some media hype, getting people out there digging trenches or mining access roads, and describing the horrors of what was coming—maybe they could have pushed through a Minsk 2 deal. Or, hey, maybe those preparations would have sent a message that a shock attack and a three-day blitz to take the capital wouldn't just work.

I'm constantly running through different scenarios in my head, trying to figure out how this disaster could have been avoided—there were so many turning points! For instance, if the West had reacted way more aggressively toward Crimea, or looking back at Georgia in 2008, I honestly don't think this catastrophe would have happened. Or if Zelenskyy hadn't arrested Medvečuk and shut down that propaganda channel—which, by the way, totally killed Putin's belief that he could just install his own people at the top of the government. And if the Ukrainians had just agreed to Minsk 2...
Of course, Putin is the one responsible here. But I find myself constantly weighing the actions of the other players, too—taking into account who Putin is, the fact that he's a criminal ideologue, and the absolute shitty options they were left with.
Richard Wilson4 Richard Wilson4 VeteranOP
2K messages
joined Sep 2009
#2417 ·
Douglas Sanchez5 said:Look, that statement doesn't really mean much on its own—not at all. I mean, just look back at what Zelenskyy and his advisors were saying right before the invasion, and then compare it to what they were saying once things actually started kicking off. They were basically telling everyone they thought the Russian troops weren't organized enough to pull off an attack, so why worry? Between the state of the media and the public polls about whether a war would even happen... it was a whole thing.

Before the invasion, the narrative was all about how Russia just wanted to bleed them economically dry, and they were even telling Americans to chill out with the "dangerous rhetoric" because it was supposedly hurting the economy. Not to mention the media landscape—everyone just seemed convinced a war wasn't coming, and the bottom line was that they didn't even start mass mobilization while the Russian military was literally gathering right on their doorstep.

I’ve been following this whole crisis-turned-catastrophe very closely—really deep-diving into it—and from everything I’ve seen, the Ukrainians really didn't see this attack coming. It's not that they didn't do *any* prep work, of course, but they just didn't think a full-scale military action was likely, nor did they think they'd have to make such massive concessions.

If they had mentally prepared the country for war back in November—you know, through mass mobilization, some media hype, getting people out there digging trenches or mining access roads, and describing the horrors of what was coming—maybe they could have pushed through a Minsk 2 deal. Or, hey, maybe those preparations would have sent a message that a shock attack and a three-day blitz to take the capital wouldn't just work.

I'm constantly running through different scenarios in my head, trying to figure out how this disaster could have been avoided—there were so many turning points! For instance, if the West had reacted way more aggressively toward Crimea, or looking back at Georgia in 2008, I honestly don't think this catastrophe would have happened. Or if Zelenskyy hadn't arrested Medvečuk and shut down that propaganda channel—which, by the way, totally killed Putin's belief that he could just install his own people at the top of the government. And if the Ukrainians had just agreed to Minsk 2...
Of course, Putin is the one responsible here. But I find myself constantly weighing the actions of the other players, too—taking into account who Putin is, the fact that he's a criminal ideologue, and the absolute shitty options they were left with.

The fact that the leader of Russia doesn't believe Ukrainians even exist as a distinct people has absolutely nothing to do with any specific moves made by Ukraine.
hollowdriver13 hollowdriver13 Regular
705 messages
joined Feb 2022
#2418 ·


So, remember how those big corporations were talking about needing maybe five or six weeks to pivot their operations? Well, look at what’s happening now. Shopping malls are starting to look like ghost towns. And before anyone jumps in to say, "Hey, they can survive without all that Western consumerism," let's be real for a second—what happens to all the people working in those stores? You've got massive job losses, less sales tax hitting the government's pockets, and landlords losing out on rent. It's a total domino effect.



The used car market is absolutely cratering, too. Every single brand that pulled out of Russia basically locked down their service software and cloud access, leaving local shops and customers totally stranded. Inflation already sent used car prices up by 30% from the start of the year until the invasion hit, and then they shot up *another* 30% after that. We're looking at a 60% price hike since January 1st just because there aren't any new cars coming in, and nobody knows if they ever will. Honestly, even the used car dealers are hesitant to sell what they have right now, thinking the value might actually climb even higher soon.
rustywalker82 rustywalker82 Active Member
203 messages
joined Feb 2013
#2419 ·
Anthony Hill5 said:Perhaps you should actually educate yourself on what Minsk truly meant for the future of Ukraine before you start lecturing me about what the "entire world" thinks. It is patently obvious that the rest of the world couldn't care less about Ukraine, provided their own comfort and cheap energy supplies remain undisturbed—not that any of them would ever be willing to sacrifice a single thing of their own.

For Ukrainians, Minsk represented the abandonment of their very future and freedom, essentially forcing them to accept a subservient, vassal-like status toward Russia.

The cheap energy that the European Union and Germany have been sucking up isn't some stroke of human genius; it’s just a gift from nature handed straight to Russia.
On the flip side, the fact that Germany doesn't have its own nuclear weapons is a man-made situation, and honestly, it's a huge reason why Ukraine is bleeding right now. The West was never truly invested in nuclear disarmament deals anyway, which is why you don't see any real pressure being put on a criminal, nuclear-armed Russia to disarm.
We're watching the consequences of that play out on the news every single night.
hiddeneagle98 hiddeneagle98 Regular
300 messages
joined Nov 2023
#2420 ·
Douglas Sanchez5 said:Look, that statement doesn't really mean much on its own—not at all. I mean, just look back at what Zelenskyy and his advisors were saying right before the invasion, and then compare it to what they were saying once things actually started kicking off. They were basically telling everyone they thought the Russian troops weren't organized enough to pull off an attack, so why worry? Between the state of the media and the public polls about whether a war would even happen... it was a whole thing.

Before the invasion, the narrative was all about how Russia just wanted to bleed them economically dry, and they were even telling Americans to chill out with the "dangerous rhetoric" because it was supposedly hurting the economy. Not to mention the media landscape—everyone just seemed convinced a war wasn't coming, and the bottom line was that they didn't even start mass mobilization while the Russian military was literally gathering right on their doorstep.

I’ve been following this whole crisis-turned-catastrophe very closely—really deep-diving into it—and from everything I’ve seen, the Ukrainians really didn't see this attack coming. It's not that they didn't do *any* prep work, of course, but they just didn't think a full-scale military action was likely, nor did they think they'd have to make such massive concessions.

If they had mentally prepared the country for war back in November—you know, through mass mobilization, some media hype, getting people out there digging trenches or mining access roads, and describing the horrors of what was coming—maybe they could have pushed through a Minsk 2 deal. Or, hey, maybe those preparations would have sent a message that a shock attack and a three-day blitz to take the capital wouldn't just work.

I'm constantly running through different scenarios in my head, trying to figure out how this disaster could have been avoided—there were so many turning points! For instance, if the West had reacted way more aggressively toward Crimea, or looking back at Georgia in 2008, I honestly don't think this catastrophe would have happened. Or if Zelenskyy hadn't arrested Medvečuk and shut down that propaganda channel—which, by the way, totally killed Putin's belief that he could just install his own people at the top of the government. And if the Ukrainians had just agreed to Minsk 2...
Of course, Putin is the one responsible here. But I find myself constantly weighing the actions of the other players, too—taking into account who Putin is, the fact that he's a criminal ideologue, and the absolute shitty options they were left with.

I honestly believe Zelenskyy was playing dumb on purpose to let the Russians in like that.

The whole idea was to let them inside, get them close to civilians, and then use that to whip the population into a frenzy against them. The Ukrainian military isn't exactly equipped to defend open territory anyway, so the total absence of things like minefields or roadblocks is hard to explain away as mere naivety.

During that first week, it felt like there was nothing but carefully curated propaganda. You had Zelenskyy and Klitschko whining about how the Russians were destroying everything, paired with a few select images that looked like they were from 1923 because nobody had a smartphone, plus some poser shots of people messing with Styrofoam while making Molotov cocktails—like that one shot of someone throwing one at a tank, which we then see momentarily driving aimlessly down a street. There was virtually no footage of actual combat, no army to be seen; it was just Zelenskyy and Klitschko parading around and ramping up the emotions.

An "independent Ukraine" lacked that anti-Russian fervor and the international support needed for resistance, so that’s how they achieved it: they derailed the Russian plan and pulled Europe into it. That’s just how nations forge themselves, unfortunately.

It’s not so much that the FSB misjudged the public mood before the invasion, but rather that they underestimated how effective propaganda could be at using the invasion itself. The Americans had already framed it as an invasion, which was the first sign that things wouldn't go according to plan—it was the beginning of the derailment. Within a single week, they generated enough citizen resistance to ensure things would escalate naturally.

Frustrated by their failure, the Russians soon started actually shelling everything, and it became obvious that this wasn't just propaganda. Now, especially after the retreats and those sickening scenes of war crimes, the anti-Russian sentiment is at an absolute maximum.
In Bucha, it looks like they were targeted specifically because civilians had helped in a devastating ambush of a Russian convoy in the middle of the city earlier on.

Don't get me wrong here—I honestly think this might have been the one real shot the people of Ukraine had to finally shake off the "bear's" embrace. Any other path, whether it was trying to play nice or just kicking the can down the road, would have been nothing more than naive wishful thinking. If anything, it’s probably better that the mask slipped on the Russians now rather than later. Or, looking at it another way, maybe the rest of the world has finally seen the KGB-style reality for what it actually is. Honestly, after seeing the kind of propaganda coming out of the Kremlin lately and listening to Putin's rhetoric, you have to be a complete degenerate to support Russia openly, and an absolute hypocrite to do it behind closed doors.

But the question remains: what are we supposed to do about this KGB-style regime now?

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