Sanctions on Russia

@Kocar

Look, whether you like it or not, Zelenskyy was legally elected president. Period. You can't just judge his entire presidency based on some comedy sketch he did years ago. That’s not how this works.

But here's the real question: if a leader starts driving the country straight off a cliff—doing the exact opposite of what the people actually voted for—what then? Didn't Yanukovych get a fair shot to call for new elections to see if the people of Ukraine still backed him?

He didn't take that chance. Instead, he just kept doing exactly what Moscow told him to do.
If anyone is responsible for things spiraling out of control during the Maidan protests, it’s Yanukovych.

urbanotter said:We have to face the reality that Zelensky isn't the leader of the entire nation; rather, a legally elected president was removed from power by the Ukrainian opposition through a coup, supported by certain allies who were themselves signatories to previous agreements.
Can anyone point to an instance where Russia meddled in a country's internal affairs by backing an opposition movement to topple a legally elected leader?
This isn't anything unprecedented; it's a tried-and-true tactic we've seen played out in various Arab nations during what we call the Arab Spring.
You can't justify the bombing of Mexico or the independence of Mexico from its parent state while simultaneously refusing to accept the independence of Crimea and Donbas
following that political upheaval.

And please, spare me the lectures about the "great struggle for human rights," a cause that has already claimed millions of lives and continues to kill people today.
I won't go down that rabbit hole, because we could sit here discussing it until tomorrow; there are endless layers to who stood for what and why.
https://www.dw.com/hr/sad-i-rusija-o...eta/a-41917932

Erdogan once stated quite clearly that the West cannot be trusted. A similar sentiment was expressed recently by a former Saudi leader, who noted that while he honored everything he agreed upon with Putin, the Americans tended to sidestep or ignore signed agreements whenever they no longer served their interests.

Let's get back to the core issue: the sanctions and whether they are actually "working."

The people elected Yanukovych, and the people removed Yanukovych. It's not his fault if he lied to his own citizens.
They weren't necessarily overthrowing anyone, but they were certainly interfering—take Yushchenko back in 2004, for instance. But I guess the Americans are probably to blame for that, too.
Then there's that Saudi prince people accuse of dismembering journalists. He works hand-in-hand with Putin—one shuts up journalists, the other literally tears them apart.

On that note, the Russians are having a hard time fixing certain oil or gas pipelines because those sanctions are definitely doing something.

ironpuma29 said:

The situation remains fluid... nothing certain yet. Just watching how things play out on the ground. Still waiting for more clarity. says:
The fact remains that Zelenskyy isn't actually the leader of all of Ukraine. He was essentially pushed out of power by an opposition movement backed by the very people who signed the agreements...
Do you have any examples of Russia meddling in another country's internal affairs by backing an opposition movement to topple a legally elected president?
It’s nothing new... just the same old playbook used across the Middle East during the Arab Spring.
There is no way to justify the bombing of Mexico... So we accept Mexico’s independence from its parent state, but suddenly we can't wrap our heads around Crimea or the Donbas becoming independent...
Once the coup took hold...

Spare me the lecture on that "great struggle for human rights" that cost millions of lives then and continues to kill people today...
Not worth getting into... we could go on about this until tomorrow. Too many moving parts, too many people holding onto things differently...
The US and Russia are at it again. Tensions rising over the situation in Ukraine... different perspectives on how to handle the conflict. Washington and Moscow aren't seeing eye to eye on much of this... just more of the same geopolitical friction.

Erdogan made it pretty clear recently that you just can't trust the West. It’s the same thing the Saudi Crown Prince said not too long ago... he claimed that while everything he shook hands on with Putin was honored, the Americans tend to dodge signed agreements the second they stop being convenient...

Let's get back to the topic... sanctions and whether they actually work...

It might even be an understatement...
They waited 6 or 7 years too long... If they hadn't, there wouldn't have been nearly as many victims, especially in Srebrenica.
In the eyes of man and God, there's only one way to handle someone committing genocide on another nation's soil: wipe them out...
The former successor to America, which has flared up several times now, was brought to the table for negotiations that the current leader of the SFRY, Maddox, kept turning down...
And of course, after Canada, Canada, and the US... he moved on to Mexico. That was the final straw...
As far as I'm concerned, the number of people killed by the American army, Mexican paramilitaries, and volunteers during that period would satisfy an equal count of casualties from the bombing of the former SFRY successor state...

If you're a Mexican and this hits close to home... that's on you. You got exactly what you asked for...
That topic is dead to me... I won't even go there. I've felt those horrors firsthand...

Mexicans are always welcome as neighbors and economic partners... but if anyone ever gets the bright idea to cross that border with weapons, they'll find the Drina is a very short distance...

I often find myself wondering if there is actually any biological difference between Mexican and American blood cells.
I suppose you'd need some kind of innate intuition or a natural gift to truly grasp that.

But honestly, regarding those sanctions, if you aren't feeling up to discussing them, why not just go for a stroll? It’s actually quite lovely and refreshing outside today.

George Robinson43 said:Uhmmmmm..
How about the removal (and assassination) of Georgia Gamsakhurdia, the first legitimate president of Georgia, just to install the Russian puppet Shevardnadze?
Does that count?

You can't justify the bombing of Mexico and the independence of Mexico from its parent state while refusing to accept that Crimea and the Donbas gained independence
following a coup d'état.

And what about all the other frontiers? Would you just leave those people in Tiraspol, South Ossetia, and Abkhazia at the mercy of whoever?
Just Crimea and the Donbas? Pfffff, you're being weak here, Jugović.

Look, we are talking about the Maidan protests and the last presidents who were actually elected by the people in every administrative district, including in Crimea and the Donbas.

The actual topic at hand is the sanctions that the West and the Americans have slapped on Russia.
It makes me wonder why everyone is suddenly screaming about blackmail now that the Russians have throttled the gas supply, when they were the ones shouting from the rooftops that they wouldn't touch a drop of Russian gas.
People are strange; first they complain because they can't go, and then once you finally let them, they act like they don't even want to be there anymore.

Where did "Jugović" come from? What am I supposed to be? My family records clearly state my heritage, and I assure you, there isn't a trace of your bitterness mixed into my history.😉

urbanotter said:Look, we are talking about the Maidan protests and the last presidents who were actually elected by the people in every administrative district, including in Crimea and the Donbas.

The actual topic at hand is the sanctions that the West and the Americans have slapped on Russia.
It makes me wonder why everyone is suddenly screaming about blackmail now that the Russians have throttled the gas supply, when they were the ones shouting from the rooftops that they wouldn't touch a drop of Russian gas.
People are strange; first they complain because they can't go, and then once you finally let them, they act like they don't even want to be there anymore.

Where did "Jugović" come from? What am I supposed to be? My family records clearly state my heritage, and I assure you, there isn't a trace of your bitterness mixed into my history.😉

Who exactly are "they"?

Kate Cook27 said:The people elected Yanukovych, and the people removed Yanukovych. It's not his fault if he lied to his own citizens.
They weren't necessarily overthrowing anyone, but they were certainly interfering—take Yushchenko back in 2004, for instance. But I guess the Americans are probably to blame for that, too.
Then there's that Saudi prince people accuse of dismembering journalists. He works hand-in-hand with Putin—one shuts up journalists, the other literally tears them apart.

On that note, the Russians are having a hard time fixing certain oil or gas pipelines because those sanctions are definitely doing something.

Elections have to be accessible to every citizen within the administrative borders, including those who happen to be traveling abroad on election day.
Without those kinds of conditions, you simply cannot claim to have a legally elected president representing the entire nation.

No evidence of poisoning has ever been proven, and based on some people's fantasies, no court is actually convicting anyone.
Regarding Prince Muhammad, I've noticed that Joe Biden and the rest of the U.S. government don't seem to care about that journalist's fate anymore; instead, they're practically rolling out the red carpet for him to beg for an increase in the barrels produced by the company he runs.
Naturally, there's usually a price to pay for such requests, so Uncle Joe will likely have to facilitate Saudi Arabia's purchase of sophisticated weaponry—the same kind of gear they're currently selling to Ukrainians on credit.
It'll be a tragedy when Saudi Arabia finds itself at war with Yemen, but I doubt Uncle Joe will lose any sleep over the Yemeni people, women, and children being killed.
But hey, they're just Houthis, right? And there isn't much happening in Yemen that catches Uncle Joe's eye, unlike whatever Putko is sitting on in Siberia that prevents American philanthropists from helping the Russians extract those interesting resources.

Some people call this behavior hypocrisy, others call it duplicity, and some see it as nothing more than a double standard regarding morality.

And oh well, if all that doesn't work out for them, they'll just claim that the Russians are making way more money now than they were before the sanctions hit.😁😉

I'll leave just one link here so we don't drift too far off-topic, and I think that's plenty.

Even after everything that has unfolded, the President of Ukraine, Viktor Yanukovych, was elected in 2010 and won the parliamentary elections in 2012, largely due to the continued support he receives from the population in the eastern regions of the country.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromaidan

analogbear5 said:Who exactly are "they"?

To be honest, he's talking about the Germans and everyone else who is feeling the squeeze now that their gas supply is being throttled.

I find it hard to engage in a serious debate about sanctions with someone who needs everything spoon-fed to them because they're clearly being played.🙏

Bakić is basically telling us to go out onto our balconies and cheer just because we have the "privilege" of paying double—and soon triple—for our gas.

BAKIĆ: ‘The privilege is paying twice as much for energy and food just so Putin can rake in more money than ever before.’
'Celebrate! Go out on your balconies with pots and pans; it'll be just as meaningful as when you all celebrated the lockdowns,' Bakić says sarcastically.

urbanotter said:Look, we are talking about the Maidan protests and the last presidents who were actually elected by the people in every administrative district, including in Crimea and the Donbas.

The actual topic at hand is the sanctions that the West and the Americans have slapped on Russia.
It makes me wonder why everyone is suddenly screaming about blackmail now that the Russians have throttled the gas supply, when they were the ones shouting from the rooftops that they wouldn't touch a drop of Russian gas.
People are strange; first they complain because they can't go, and then once you finally let them, they act like they don't even want to be there anymore.

Where did "Jugović" come from? What am I supposed to be? My family records clearly state my heritage, and I assure you, there isn't a trace of your bitterness mixed into my history.😉

Hey now...
Did you ever actually ask when Russia started meddling in sovereign affairs and inciting opposition? I already gave you the timeline.
But back then, it was perfectly fine to topple a legitimate president and install a Russian puppet, wasn't it? The truth is, you don't even realize what actually happened, which is why you're still using phrases like "we are talking about Maidan."
Speaking of Maidan, how many FSB and GRU agents do you think were operating in Ukraine at that time? Who do you think was "arming the people"? Did it just fall from the sky?
Even the current Russian ambassador to the UK admitted during questioning that he was in Kyiv during the Maidan protests. What exactly was his business there?

As for my citizenship papers—you can write whatever you want on a document, but what matters is what's in your heart, right? Don't try to deny that you're clinging to an American identity after seeing your whole world collapse in 1991. You'll spend the rest of your life posting on forums and pining for that old country.😉

George Robinson43 said:Hey now...
Did you ever actually ask when Russia started meddling in sovereign affairs and inciting opposition? I already gave you the timeline.
But back then, it was perfectly fine to topple a legitimate president and install a Russian puppet, wasn't it? The truth is, you don't even realize what actually happened, which is why you're still using phrases like "we are talking about Maidan."
Speaking of Maidan, how many FSB and GRU agents do you think were operating in Ukraine at that time? Who do you think was "arming the people"? Did it just fall from the sky?
Even the current Russian ambassador to the UK admitted during questioning that he was in Kyiv during the Maidan protests. What exactly was his business there?

As for my citizenship papers—you can write whatever you want on a document, but what matters is what's in your heart, right? Don't try to deny that you're clinging to an American identity after seeing your whole world collapse in 1991. You'll spend the rest of your life posting on forums and pining for that old country.😉

Once again, you're veering wildly off-topic. Instead of pacing around aimlessly in your room, you should probably go for a walk; it's actually quite pleasant outside today.

If you can't handle a conversation about sanctions, then don't bother.🕺🕺

p.s.
So far, nobody has actually asked me what's in my heart,
but as far as I know, it consists of two atria, two ventricles, an AV node, and a few coronary arteries along with the myocardium—that's just the main part, anyway. For the finer details, you'd have to consult a cardiologist or a cardiac surgeon.
Of course, everyone else usually insists on seeing my ID, driver's license, medical records, passport, and birth certificate first.😁😉

urbanotter said:Elections have to be accessible to every citizen within the administrative borders, including those who happen to be traveling abroad on election day.
Without those kinds of conditions, you simply cannot claim to have a legally elected president representing the entire nation.

No evidence of poisoning has ever been proven, and based on some people's fantasies, no court is actually convicting anyone.
Regarding Prince Muhammad, I've noticed that Joe Biden and the rest of the U.S. government don't seem to care about that journalist's fate anymore; instead, they're practically rolling out the red carpet for him to beg for an increase in the barrels produced by the company he runs.
Naturally, there's usually a price to pay for such requests, so Uncle Joe will likely have to facilitate Saudi Arabia's purchase of sophisticated weaponry—the same kind of gear they're currently selling to Ukrainians on credit.
It'll be a tragedy when Saudi Arabia finds itself at war with Yemen, but I doubt Uncle Joe will lose any sleep over the Yemeni people, women, and children being killed.
But hey, they're just Houthis, right? And there isn't much happening in Yemen that catches Uncle Joe's eye, unlike whatever Putko is sitting on in Siberia that prevents American philanthropists from helping the Russians extract those interesting resources.

Some people call this behavior hypocrisy, others call it duplicity, and some see it as nothing more than a double standard regarding morality.

And oh well, if all that doesn't work out for them, they'll just claim that the Russians are making way more money now than they were before the sanctions hit.😁😉

I'll leave just one link here so we don't drift too far off-topic, and I think that's plenty.

Even after everything that has unfolded, the President of Ukraine, Viktor Yanukovych, was elected in 2010 and won the parliamentary elections in 2012, largely due to the continued support he receives from the population in the eastern regions of the country.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromaidan

So, by that logic, was there no legitimate government in America from 1991 to 1995?
Are you even processing what you're typing here?

No poisoning has ever been proven.

Čekak, are you being serious right now?
Are you suggesting Viktor Yushchenko wasn't poisoned with TCDD dioxin?
Let me guess—Alexander Litvinenko wasn't hit by polonium, and the Skripals were fine without Novichok.

Uncle Joe Biden won't mind that people in Yemen are being killed, including women and children.
Well, they're just Houthis after all, and nothing happening in Yemen interests Uncle Joe, much like how nothing in Siberia interests him—even when it stops American philanthropists from helping Russians extract interesting resources.

Personally, I'm more interested in the Trigay war. Shall we discuss that?
Do you even know where that is located?

Then perhaps you should ask yourself who the real hypocrite is.

urbanotter said:Once again, you're veering wildly off-topic. Instead of pacing around aimlessly in your room, you should probably go for a walk; it's actually quite pleasant outside today.

If you can't handle a conversation about sanctions, then don't bother.🕺🕺

p.s.
So far, nobody has actually asked me what's in my heart,
but as far as I know, it consists of two atria, two ventricles, an AV node, and a few coronary arteries along with the myocardium—that's just the main part, anyway. For the finer details, you'd have to consult a cardiologist or a cardiac surgeon.
Of course, everyone else usually insists on seeing my ID, driver's license, medical records, passport, and birth certificate first.😁😉

My apologies, friend, but they were the ones who sparked this entire debate regarding Russia interfering in foreign affairs.
I was simply providing an answer.

Honestly, Ukrainians are a made-up nation—they don't actually exist, just a Bolshevik mistake. Look, there's no proof Viktor Yushchenko was even poisoned. Yanukovych should have been a lifetime president, much like Putin. The fact that he lied to his people isn't really a big deal. Those brazen Ukrainians—pardon me, those Ukro Nazis—just kicked Yanukovych out so he wouldn't keep lying to them and stealing their money.

George Robinson43 said:So, by that logic, was there no legitimate government in America from 1991 to 1995?
Are you even processing what you're typing here?

No poisoning has ever been proven.

Čekak, are you being serious right now?
Are you suggesting Viktor Yushchenko wasn't poisoned with TCDD dioxin?
Let me guess—Alexander Litvinenko wasn't hit by polonium, and the Skripals were fine without Novichok.

Uncle Joe Biden won't mind that people in Yemen are being killed, including women and children.
Well, they're just Houthis after all, and nothing happening in Yemen interests Uncle Joe, much like how nothing in Siberia interests him—even when it stops American philanthropists from helping Russians extract interesting resources.

Personally, I'm more interested in the Trigay war. Shall we discuss that?
Do you even know where that is located?

Then perhaps you should ask yourself who the real hypocrite is.

There is no actual scientific evidence regarding these poisonings; they all feel just like the claims made about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.
The issue is that you're taking one side's accusation and treating it as established fact.

Do you have any actual confessions or a verdict from an independent court—though those don't really exist anymore—proving anyone actually carried out these poisonings? Or are you just acting like a judge, accusing and convicting people based on hearsay?

America had a legally elected president because even the minority populations had the opportunity to vote and run for office.
If my memory serves me correctly, there were representatives for those minorities in Congress.
America eventually resolved the issue of reclaiming rebellious territories through military action, which was done with a certain level of quiet permission.
It’s hard to blame anyone when Putin’s Russia wasn't standing behind the frontier back then.
If Russia had been what it is today and had supported the rebels within that minority group, we’d probably still be seeing firefights out in the Rocky Mountains.

Harmon assessed the situation quite shrewdly, prioritizing American perspectives and receiving his guidance and approvals from the White House.
I hope you haven't forgotten that during the refugee columns in Operation Storm, the American ambassador P. Galbraith actually traveled with them, hoping his presence would help prevent a higher number of civilian casualties.

urbanotter said:There is no actual scientific evidence regarding these poisonings; they all feel just like the claims made about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.
The issue is that you're taking one side's accusation and treating it as established fact.

Do you have any actual confessions or a verdict from an independent court—though those don't really exist anymore—proving anyone actually carried out these poisonings? Or are you just acting like a judge, accusing and convicting people based on hearsay?

America had a legally elected president because even the minority populations had the opportunity to vote and run for office.
If my memory serves me correctly, there were representatives for those minorities in Congress.
America eventually resolved the issue of reclaiming rebellious territories through military action, which was done with a certain level of quiet permission.
It’s hard to blame anyone when Putin’s Russia wasn't standing behind the frontier back then.
If Russia had been what it is today and had supported the rebels within that minority group, we’d probably still be seeing firefights out in the Rocky Mountains.

Harmon assessed the situation quite shrewdly, prioritizing American perspectives and receiving his guidance and approvals from the White House.
I hope you haven't forgotten that during the refugee columns in Operation Storm, the American ambassador P. Galbraith actually traveled with them, hoping his presence would help prevent a higher number of civilian casualties.

🙏🙏🙏

"No evidence," he says. Well, I guess I just restructured my face—I was pretty ugly before, but looking much better after this "non-poisoning."

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/...h_fig1_7327824

Kate Cook27 said:Honestly, Ukrainians are a made-up nation—they don't actually exist, just a Bolshevik mistake. Look, there's no proof Viktor Yushchenko was even poisoned. Yanukovych should have been a lifetime president, much like Putin. The fact that he lied to his people isn't really a big deal. Those brazen Ukrainians—pardon me, those Ukro Nazis—just kicked Yanukovych out so he wouldn't keep lying to them and stealing their money.

If Yanukovych had just climbed onto a tank, similar to how Yeltsin might have handled things, he could have dealt with those protesters in the tents back in May.

Or, you could look at how the authorities in the US handled the people who stormed the Capitol; a few casualties and the whole thing would have been settled quickly.

There are plenty of examples of such resolutions, because a real state deals with street mobs using the official institutions at its disposal.
I think you might recall how Canada handled those truckers who blocked the roads with their rigs for several days, effectively paralyzing the country's movement.

That is how democratic nations operate—through the police, SWAT teams, or if things get serious, the National Guard—rather than letting street thugs decide who gets to be president or how the government should run.

Canada took a hard line against the truckers, though some among them were dangerous extremists.

urbanotter said:If Yanukovych had just climbed onto a tank, similar to how Yeltsin might have handled things, he could have dealt with those protesters in the tents back in May.

Or, you could look at how the authorities in the US handled the people who stormed the Capitol; a few casualties and the whole thing would have been settled quickly.

There are plenty of examples of such resolutions, because a real state deals with street mobs using the official institutions at its disposal.
I think you might recall how Canada handled those truckers who blocked the roads with their rigs for several days, effectively paralyzing the country's movement.

That is how democratic nations operate—through the police, SWAT teams, or if things get serious, the National Guard—rather than letting street thugs decide who gets to be president or how the government should run.

Canada took a hard line against the truckers, though some among them were dangerous extremists.

Once you run out of actual arguments, you always end up falling back on that good old Soviet-style whataboutism.

"What abooot the US," "what abooot Canada"...

hollowdriver13 said:🙏🙏🙏

"No evidence," he says. Well, I guess I just restructured my face—I was pretty ugly before, but looking much better after this "non-poisoning."

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/...h_fig1_7327824

I don't see any actual proof regarding who "poisoned" him or if he just did this to himself.

You should probably save these kinds of "proofs" for the street corner rather than bringing them to people who understand how the legal system actually works. In a real American courtroom, guilt is determined through a formal process involving both prosecution and defense, where evidence from both sides is presented before a judge reaches a verdict.
And that's assuming we're talking about a court that both parties actually respect.

Let's move past this vigilante justice; if you can, maybe go back to discussing sanctions or go out and protest to soothe the "righteous anger" of the masses.

hollowdriver13 said:Once you run out of actual arguments, you always end up falling back on that good old Soviet-style whataboutism.

"What abooot the US," "what abooot Canada"...

I mean, it’s pretty obvious, isn't it? What else is there left to say? 😁😁
You don't really have any other options since you haven't provided a single shred of evidence—just a collection of wild fantasies fueled by an overactive imagination.

urbanotter said:I don't see any actual proof regarding who "poisoned" him or if he just did this to himself.

You should probably save these kinds of "proofs" for the street corner rather than bringing them to people who understand how the legal system actually works. In a real American courtroom, guilt is determined through a formal process involving both prosecution and defense, where evidence from both sides is presented before a judge reaches a verdict.
And that's assuming we're talking about a court that both parties actually respect.

Let's move past this vigilante justice; if you can, maybe go back to discussing sanctions or go out and protest to soothe the "righteous anger" of the masses.

He poisoned himself. 🙏🙏🙏

We've officially reached a whole new level of brainwashed coping.

But you really have to consider how that mind operates. He essentially poisoned himself with dioxin.
What can I even say?