Sanctions on Russia

So, what’s the big deal about a year of sanctions? We sit here complaining because things got a little pricier for six months—it's all just high drama. But people seem to forget the long-term fallout from those sanctions and the WAR itself. I mean, if the Kremlin supporters haven't noticed yet, this war is taking lives—mostly young men. We're looking at roughly 100k dead and three times that many wounded (which is an incredibly expensive burden to sustain), not even counting the refugees whose numbers we can't even track. How many more will fall? It's anyone's guess. Basically, their entire demographic potential is being flushed down the drain—we're talking about the same number of families devastated, or children who will never be born to rebuild the nation and drive it forward. Who is going to help them? They'll be digging themselves out of the hole they created for decades. Sure, Ukraine has suffered too—they have massive casualties—but who is going to help them? Well, I assume they'll get much better support from the West than we ever did, so I figure they'll get back on their feet faster. So, "good luck" to the idiots trying to be self-sufficient and recover; for us, the only consolation is that Russian oil and gas will likely be way cheaper after this is over—because the war will end whenever it ends.

brightheron64 said:If I’m being completely honest, who is actually feeling the sting of this specific detail? Is it the Russians, or is it the nations with massive automotive industries? Even the very first round of sanctions forced them to reorganize—primarily their agricultural sector—and if you ask yourself who really lost in that scenario, well... just go talk to anyone in a major farming region, someone who grows citrus or other produce, and ask them what they think about these sanctions. I know a few growers who basically tell anyone listening to shove the sanctions where the sun doesn't shine, because according to them, a Russian buyer will show up with three or five semi-trucks full of cash and pay right on the spot after weighing the load. Compare that to how some big-name corporate tycoon used to handle payments...

I totally get the sense of schadenfreude, and I agree that sanctions are a deserved consequence for an invasion, but when you look at the long game, where is the actual benefit here? Forcing the Russians to find ways to adapt and survive might just break them, or it might simply force them to reorganize, even if it means they end up producing nothing but Lades or Moskvich cars... This isn't even helping us in the long run (think about companies like AD Plastics or Cimos America...). And don't even get me started on the Germans, the Frenchmen, or the Japanese men...

Only time will tell how much sense all these sanctions truly make, and whether forcing Russia toward self-sufficiency—not that they are some kind of wasteland lacking resources—will work better than continuing to feed and subtly manipulate those wealthy oil tycoons and importers who buy everything without a second thought, from hamburgers to S-Class Mercedes... It makes me wonder how much this actually serves the other side and their commitment to playing the role of the righteous hero, even when we set aside "trivialities" like cheap energy sources...

Just look at Iran, for instance; how long have they been under sanctions?
And yet...?

It's pretty simple: it's not all about the money.
Think of it this way: you've got a cheap convenience store nearby, and the owner (Putin) beats up a customer (Ukraine) right in front of you, then threatens to crack your skull if you try to step in.
Are you going to show up at that store tomorrow just because it's close and cheap?
Personally, I wouldn't. I might show up, but I'd probably be carrying a baseball bat. You might go back, but people are unpredictable.😁

brightheron64 said:If I’m being completely honest, who is actually feeling the sting of this specific detail? Is it the Russians, or is it the nations with massive automotive industries? Even the very first round of sanctions forced them to reorganize—primarily their agricultural sector—and if you ask yourself who really lost in that scenario, well... just go talk to anyone in a major farming region, someone who grows citrus or other produce, and ask them what they think about these sanctions. I know a few growers who basically tell anyone listening to shove the sanctions where the sun doesn't shine, because according to them, a Russian buyer will show up with three or five semi-trucks full of cash and pay right on the spot after weighing the load. Compare that to how some big-name corporate tycoon used to handle payments...

I totally get the sense of schadenfreude, and I agree that sanctions are a deserved consequence for an invasion, but when you look at the long game, where is the actual benefit here? Forcing the Russians to find ways to adapt and survive might just break them, or it might simply force them to reorganize, even if it means they end up producing nothing but Lades or Moskvich cars... This isn't even helping us in the long run (think about companies like AD Plastics or Cimos America...). And don't even get me started on the Germans, the Frenchmen, or the Japanese men...

Only time will tell how much sense all these sanctions truly make, and whether forcing Russia toward self-sufficiency—not that they are some kind of wasteland lacking resources—will work better than continuing to feed and subtly manipulate those wealthy oil tycoons and importers who buy everything without a second thought, from hamburgers to S-Class Mercedes... It makes me wonder how much this actually serves the other side and their commitment to playing the role of the righteous hero, even when we set aside "trivialities" like cheap energy sources...

Just look at Iran, for instance; how long have they been under sanctions?
And yet...?

Sure, being self-sufficient in strategic sectors is fine, but there is a massive difference between being independent and being totally cut off from international relations and global trade. This isn't the 19th century. Russia has no future if it's completely sidelined by the West. Either they end up in the same circle as Iran and North Korea, which would be a total failure of Russian policy and a complete abandonment of common sense, or nothing changes.

Joshua Myers432 said:Sure, being self-sufficient in strategic sectors is fine, but there is a massive difference between being independent and being totally cut off from international relations and global trade. This isn't the 19th century. Russia has no future if it's completely sidelined by the West. Either they end up in the same circle as Iran and North Korea, which would be a total failure of Russian policy and a complete abandonment of common sense, or nothing changes.

Honestly, this is already happening. They've become absolute best buddies at this point.

"Russia and North Korea forge closer ties amid shared isolation"

https://www.reuters.com/world/russia...on-2022-11-04/

"Iran Says Determined to boost Ties with Russia ' AT All Levels'"

https://www.iranintl.com/en/202209160361

And then you've got the Russian proxies like Belarus and Syria playing for the same team.

It looks like they're slowly realizing on the ground in Russia that just seizing factories from Western companies isn't some magic fix for their economy. You can see the cracks starting to show—Siemens locomotives and rail cars are basically sitting idle, and as for their aviation industry? Yeah, things aren't looking too bright there either.

https://twitter.com/Gerashchenko_en/...98787575357440

Honestly, pretty much everything high-tech they’ve got was originally built by the West. 😬

brightheron64 said:If I’m being completely honest, who is actually feeling the sting of this specific detail? Is it the Russians, or is it the nations with massive automotive industries? Even the very first round of sanctions forced them to reorganize—primarily their agricultural sector—and if you ask yourself who really lost in that scenario, well... just go talk to anyone in a major farming region, someone who grows citrus or other produce, and ask them what they think about these sanctions. I know a few growers who basically tell anyone listening to shove the sanctions where the sun doesn't shine, because according to them, a Russian buyer will show up with three or five semi-trucks full of cash and pay right on the spot after weighing the load. Compare that to how some big-name corporate tycoon used to handle payments...

I totally get the sense of schadenfreude, and I agree that sanctions are a deserved consequence for an invasion, but when you look at the long game, where is the actual benefit here? Forcing the Russians to find ways to adapt and survive might just break them, or it might simply force them to reorganize, even if it means they end up producing nothing but Lades or Moskvich cars... This isn't even helping us in the long run (think about companies like AD Plastics or Cimos America...). And don't even get me started on the Germans, the Frenchmen, or the Japanese men...

Only time will tell how much sense all these sanctions truly make, and whether forcing Russia toward self-sufficiency—not that they are some kind of wasteland lacking resources—will work better than continuing to feed and subtly manipulate those wealthy oil tycoons and importers who buy everything without a second thought, from hamburgers to S-Class Mercedes... It makes me wonder how much this actually serves the other side and their commitment to playing the role of the righteous hero, even when we set aside "trivialities" like cheap energy sources...

Just look at Iran, for instance; how long have they been under sanctions?
And yet...?

Aside from the nations that have felt the direct sting of Russian aggression, nobody in the West, not even Americans, feels any particular malice toward Russia or has a desire, nor an interest, in seeing them collapse into a rogue state. Russia committed crimes against its neighbors, but it also brings a lot to the table in terms of culture, science, art, and sports, which earned them a lot of respect and sympathy. They've squandered that with many people now, resulting in a terrible reputation, but that's entirely due to their own mistakes. I'm certain that if the Russians withdraw from Ukraine, change leadership, admit their errors, and curb the delusions, sanctions would ease quickly, and they might even see developmental aid from the West.

Just look at Iran—how long have they been under sanctions?
And...?

Iran is a completely different world; it doesn't affect us that much.

balzag said:Seeking self-sufficiency? What kind of phrasing is that? Wasn't the mantra until now that Russians were perfectly self-sufficient? That’s what brightheron64, along with all those other "neutral" objective observers, used to say. So why all this sudden talk about seeking it now, especially when they try to frame their own internal struggles as if they were problems facing the West...
Are you basically saying that before you were just rambling aimlessly, but now you've suddenly started thinking seriously?
And I suppose tomorrow they'll just go out and buy some lithography machines to start churning out chips in a teenager's bedroom, though the Chinese will probably just copy the lithography first just to spite them and avoid buying from the West. It's pretty simple math...

Actually, no, Russians weren't self-sufficient; they were just lazy people who calculated how to export enough natural resources to earn more than enough to buy every single luxury the global market has to offer. They were essentially like Middle Eastern oil states that sit on massive reserves, just with a much larger population to support...

Sanctions completely change the dynamic here. Up until the 90s, the USSR was actually one of the world's leading importers of grain and agricultural products. You see the same pattern with Russia as an independent nation, but the narrative is slowly shifting, particularly after those initial sanctions back in 2014, which led to Russia becoming the world's largest grain producer by 2017, while the rest of their agricultural output has also seen a massive surge...

Just for a bit of perspective, if Saudi Arabia were hit with sanctions similar to what the Russians faced today and nobody bought their oil anymore, they would literally starve...

When we look at technology, just as an example, when Sberbank was sourcing new servers, they reached the conclusion that the Russian Elbrus-8C simply couldn't compete with an Intel Xeon Gold processor. Now that Intel is off the table, both the Elbrus and Baikal processors will be considered perfectly fine. And it doesn't stop there; they're going to pour investment into further developing them. Sure, they might lag behind technologically, but what even is technology these days? Is it some sort of esoteric, guarded family secret like the way someone crafts a violin? Nowadays, if you present a certain group of geniuses and top-tier experts with a blank check, everything else becomes just a matter of time and money—which they certainly have plenty of... Take Hyundai, for instance; if they decide to build a sports car like the i30 n, they can simply acquire a piece of BMW's M division and their specialized know-how. And let's not forget that once upon a time, a budget-friendly Hyundai Pony was a major competitor to the Zastava and Yugo models on the American market...

You have to realize this is a long game; the more we force Americans to figure things out on their own, the more we are actually forcing them toward domestic development, which ultimately means they'll buy less from abroad, and that's to our disadvantage...

To be honest, I couldn't care less about Russia, but if this makes you happy, feel free to keep viewing all of this through the lens of Russophilia...

brightheron64 said:Actually, no, Russians weren't self-sufficient; they were just lazy people who calculated how to export enough natural resources to earn more than enough to buy every single luxury the global market has to offer. They were essentially like Middle Eastern oil states that sit on massive reserves, just with a much larger population to support...

Sanctions completely change the dynamic here. Up until the 90s, the USSR was actually one of the world's leading importers of grain and agricultural products. You see the same pattern with Russia as an independent nation, but the narrative is slowly shifting, particularly after those initial sanctions back in 2014, which led to Russia becoming the world's largest grain producer by 2017, while the rest of their agricultural output has also seen a massive surge...

Just for a bit of perspective, if Saudi Arabia were hit with sanctions similar to what the Russians faced today and nobody bought their oil anymore, they would literally starve...

When we look at technology, just as an example, when Sberbank was sourcing new servers, they reached the conclusion that the Russian Elbrus-8C simply couldn't compete with an Intel Xeon Gold processor. Now that Intel is off the table, both the Elbrus and Baikal processors will be considered perfectly fine. And it doesn't stop there; they're going to pour investment into further developing them. Sure, they might lag behind technologically, but what even is technology these days? Is it some sort of esoteric, guarded family secret like the way someone crafts a violin? Nowadays, if you present a certain group of geniuses and top-tier experts with a blank check, everything else becomes just a matter of time and money—which they certainly have plenty of... Take Hyundai, for instance; if they decide to build a sports car like the i30 n, they can simply acquire a piece of BMW's M division and their specialized know-how. And let's not forget that once upon a time, a budget-friendly Hyundai Pony was a major competitor to the Zastava and Yugo models on the American market...

You have to realize this is a long game; the more we force Americans to figure things out on their own, the more we are actually forcing them toward domestic development, which ultimately means they'll buy less from abroad, and that's to our disadvantage...

To be honest, I couldn't care less about Russia, but if this makes you happy, feel free to keep viewing all of this through the lens of Russophilia...

Oh, sure... totally...

If you wiped out the entire oil contribution to Saudi Arabia's GDP tomorrow, they’d still have a higher GDP per capita than Russia (and that’s even without sanctions...). 😉🍿

And that’s technically impossible, we're talking hypothetically here... but just so you can see how far your posts are from reality and the truth, and maybe settle down a bit regarding how much of a backwards mess Russia actually is (considering the massive resources they actually possess...).

gentlestag15 said:It's pretty simple: it's not all about the money.
Think of it this way: you've got a cheap convenience store nearby, and the owner (Putin) beats up a customer (Ukraine) right in front of you, then threatens to crack your skull if you try to step in.
Are you going to show up at that store tomorrow just because it's close and cheap?
Personally, I wouldn't. I might show up, but I'd probably be carrying a baseball bat. You might go back, but people are unpredictable.😁

Exactly—that's why Saudi oil always smells fishy.
Whether it's oil swiped from Syria...
Or lifted from tankers like those Iranian ones last year.
Where do you think the "noble" West gets it? They just seize it so these guys can't grow or turn a profit. Pathetic.

feralpilot0 said:Exactly—that's why Saudi oil always smells fishy.
Whether it's oil swiped from Syria...
Or lifted from tankers like those Iranian ones last year.
Where do you think the "noble" West gets it? They just seize it so these guys can't grow or turn a profit. Pathetic.

Honestly, people with that kind of mindset are exactly who should be taken advantage of... I don't see what the big deal is.

Especially since this whole thing seems to really bother the anti-West losers, even though they're living right here in the West themselves. 😵

Total win-win situation...😁

brightheron64 said:Actually, no, Russians weren't self-sufficient; they were just lazy people who calculated how to export enough natural resources to earn more than enough to buy every single luxury the global market has to offer. They were essentially like Middle Eastern oil states that sit on massive reserves, just with a much larger population to support...

Sanctions completely change the dynamic here. Up until the 90s, the USSR was actually one of the world's leading importers of grain and agricultural products. You see the same pattern with Russia as an independent nation, but the narrative is slowly shifting, particularly after those initial sanctions back in 2014, which led to Russia becoming the world's largest grain producer by 2017, while the rest of their agricultural output has also seen a massive surge...

Just for a bit of perspective, if Saudi Arabia were hit with sanctions similar to what the Russians faced today and nobody bought their oil anymore, they would literally starve...

When we look at technology, just as an example, when Sberbank was sourcing new servers, they reached the conclusion that the Russian Elbrus-8C simply couldn't compete with an Intel Xeon Gold processor. Now that Intel is off the table, both the Elbrus and Baikal processors will be considered perfectly fine. And it doesn't stop there; they're going to pour investment into further developing them. Sure, they might lag behind technologically, but what even is technology these days? Is it some sort of esoteric, guarded family secret like the way someone crafts a violin? Nowadays, if you present a certain group of geniuses and top-tier experts with a blank check, everything else becomes just a matter of time and money—which they certainly have plenty of... Take Hyundai, for instance; if they decide to build a sports car like the i30 n, they can simply acquire a piece of BMW's M division and their specialized know-how. And let's not forget that once upon a time, a budget-friendly Hyundai Pony was a major competitor to the Zastava and Yugo models on the American market...

You have to realize this is a long game; the more we force Americans to figure things out on their own, the more we are actually forcing them toward domestic development, which ultimately means they'll buy less from abroad, and that's to our disadvantage...

To be honest, I couldn't care less about Russia, but if this makes you happy, feel free to keep viewing all of this through the lens of Russophilia...

Interesting point. But if that's the case, why can't the Chinese produce what Germans can? Germany builds high-end machinery for basically every industry, and China isn't even close.
If technology is so easy to grab, why don't the Chinese just copy everything?
P.S. Comparing grain production to microchips, heavy machinery, or jet engines is a bad call. Besides, those combines used for the grain usually come from the West.

Robert Cooper9 said:So, what’s the big deal about a year of sanctions? We sit here complaining because things got a little pricier for six months—it's all just high drama. But people seem to forget the long-term fallout from those sanctions and the WAR itself. I mean, if the Kremlin supporters haven't noticed yet, this war is taking lives—mostly young men. We're looking at roughly 100k dead and three times that many wounded (which is an incredibly expensive burden to sustain), not even counting the refugees whose numbers we can't even track. How many more will fall? It's anyone's guess. Basically, their entire demographic potential is being flushed down the drain—we're talking about the same number of families devastated, or children who will never be born to rebuild the nation and drive it forward. Who is going to help them? They'll be digging themselves out of the hole they created for decades. Sure, Ukraine has suffered too—they have massive casualties—but who is going to help them? Well, I assume they'll get much better support from the West than we ever did, so I figure they'll get back on their feet faster. So, "good luck" to the idiots trying to be self-sufficient and recover; for us, the only consolation is that Russian oil and gas will likely be way cheaper after this is over—because the war will end whenever it ends.

What consolation? Who cares if it gets cheaper or not. Good luck to the new addicts out there—we finally moved on to more expensive fuel.

Nathan Thomas12 said:Interesting point. But if that's the case, why can't the Chinese produce what Germans can? Germany builds high-end machinery for basically every industry, and China isn't even close.
If technology is so easy to grab, why don't the Chinese just copy everything?
P.S. Comparing grain production to microchips, heavy machinery, or jet engines is a bad call. Besides, those combines used for the grain usually come from the West.

Because they simply can't...

Honestly, all these half-baked arguments about how Russians will build this or that just because they "have" to... yeah, right. They'll be lucky if they can build a paper airplane.😁

If you handed the current Russian government—or rather, their entire way of running things—today's Swiss economy and its setup, they'd burn through their current reserves and still wouldn't manage to recreate even a fraction of that Swiss efficiency in 20 years.

A regime like that, with that specific power structure, hits a ceiling. It's a hard limit. A system without actual institutions, without basic freedoms, etc.—it's just fundamentally incapable of achieving certain things. It's simple math. Russia isn't some special case here; in fact, after decades of mental and systemic regression under the USSR, they've been led for decades by someone who is a direct product of that same rigid, suffocating USSR era.

A Russia like this isn't capable of pulling off anything significant... and they never will until they overhaul their entire governing system, actually build some real institutions, and so on. Everything else is just empty rhetoric and nothing more.

Nathan Thomas12 said:Interesting point. But if that's the case, why can't the Chinese produce what Germans can? Germany builds high-end machinery for basically every industry, and China isn't even close.
If technology is so easy to grab, why don't the Chinese just copy everything?
P.S. Comparing grain production to microchips, heavy machinery, or jet engines is a bad call. Besides, those combines used for the grain usually come from the West.

It is an intriguing thesis, certainly.

How else would you explain the fact that up until the 70s, the Chinese weren't even capable of building what the Germans and Britons were producing for Bismarck or Queen Victoria, yet here they are today...

Just consider this one little detail:

Nearly a quarter of all cars newly registered in China are now electric or plug-in hybrid vehicles, meaning that the country is ahead of Europe and well ahead of The US in adoption of Thes technologies. Half The world's EVs ara sold in China.

Do you honestly think the Chinese—unlike the Russians—are just importing electric vehicles? That they aren't developing their own tech and manufacturing capabilities along the way... Can you even begin to imagine what the landscape will look like in five or ten years, and who will actually be leading the world in EV production?...

Nathan Thomas12 said:Interesting point. But if that's the case, why can't the Chinese produce what Germans can? Germany builds high-end machinery for basically every industry, and China isn't even close.
If technology is so easy to grab, why don't the Chinese just copy everything?
P.S. Comparing grain production to microchips, heavy machinery, or jet engines is a bad call. Besides, those combines used for the grain usually come from the West.

And that is exactly where the catch lies. Honestly, please just view this as a bit of lamentation or a debate... rather than some attempt to take the side of the Russians. I am simply wondering if, in the long run, these sanctions might actually force Russia into a new era of industrialization, transforming them from arrogant exporters and importers into genuine technological competitors...

Of course, it's a process that takes time, but once you learn a lesson like this, you'd hope it would prompt some reflection, much like what happened with the agricultural sector...

feralpilot0 said:Exactly—that's why Saudi oil always smells fishy.
Whether it's oil swiped from Syria...
Or lifted from tankers like those Iranian ones last year.
Where do you think the "noble" West gets it? They just seize it so these guys can't grow or turn a profit. Pathetic.

The West just takes everything and steals it without paying a dime. Over there, those Arab Shiites have become billionaires like Croesus, building up those flashy, gaudy cities like Dubai out of thin air. Meanwhile, the common people are still struggling in extreme poverty, but of course, they blame the wicked West instead of the wealthy elite.

Sanctions actually work. Back in 2013, their GDP per capita was sitting around $16,000, but by 2016—just two years after the sanctions kicked in—that number had plummeted to about $8,000.

They managed to see a bit of growth after that, sure, but they have never once managed to claw their way back to those pre-sanction levels.

These sanctions are going to cripple them over the next few years. Even right now, in Russia, you find yourself praying to God that your car doesn't break down because spare parts are practically non-existent. Of course, I’m not talking about some ancient Chevrolets here; I mean your standard European models. And that is just one single example out of millions of similar issues.

It’s not like Belgians could just keep selling them chocolate, or Italians selling boots, or us shipping them mandarins... it simply doesn't work that way anymore. It would be like trying to conduct business with Nazi Germany in 1939. Until everything is returned to its rightful place, these sanctions need to stay firmly in place, even if some sort of truce is called... For the West, this really comes down to a question of being or not being. I don't mean the survival of a nation, but rather the survival of our political legacy and our ability to prevent future wars.

brightheron64 said:It is an intriguing thesis, certainly.

How else would you explain the fact that up until the 70s, the Chinese weren't even capable of building what the Germans and Britons were producing for Bismarck or Queen Victoria, yet here they are today...

Just consider this one little detail:

Nearly a quarter of all cars newly registered in China are now electric or plug-in hybrid vehicles, meaning that the country is ahead of Europe and well ahead of The US in adoption of Thes technologies. Half The world's EVs ara sold in China.

Do you honestly think the Chinese—unlike the Russians—are just importing electric vehicles? That they aren't developing their own tech and manufacturing capabilities along the way... Can you even begin to imagine what the landscape will look like in five or ten years, and who will actually be leading the world in EV production?...

And that is exactly where the catch lies. Honestly, please just view this as a bit of lamentation or a debate... rather than some attempt to take the side of the Russians. I am simply wondering if, in the long run, these sanctions might actually force Russia into a new era of industrialization, transforming them from arrogant exporters and importers into genuine technological competitors...

Of course, it's a process that takes time, but once you learn a lesson like this, you'd hope it would prompt some reflection, much like what happened with the agricultural sector...

That’s actually a really solid point and a fair argument. Personally, I think Russians would likely be more capable than the Chinese, let alone anyone from Saudi Arabia, when you look at their inventiveness, science, tech, and even their art. But they can't thrive under that kind of government or a system so obsessed with past conquests—it just drives their brightest minds away, mostly toward the West. Russia could be incredibly advanced, but only if they operated within Western frameworks. Otherwise, it's hard to see them being treated as an equal by the Chinese; they'll more likely just be viewed as something to be conquered.

Brenda Murphy3 said:Because they simply can't...

Honestly, all these half-baked arguments about how Russians will build this or that just because they "have" to... yeah, right. They'll be lucky if they can build a paper airplane.😁

If you handed the current Russian government—or rather, their entire way of running things—today's Swiss economy and its setup, they'd burn through their current reserves and still wouldn't manage to recreate even a fraction of that Swiss efficiency in 20 years.

A regime like that, with that specific power structure, hits a ceiling. It's a hard limit. A system without actual institutions, without basic freedoms, etc.—it's just fundamentally incapable of achieving certain things. It's simple math. Russia isn't some special case here; in fact, after decades of mental and systemic regression under the USSR, they've been led for decades by someone who is a direct product of that same rigid, suffocating USSR era.

A Russia like this isn't capable of pulling off anything significant... and they never will until they overhaul their entire governing system, actually build some real institutions, and so on. Everything else is just empty rhetoric and nothing more.

Exactly. Besides, even a highly advanced nation in Europe with a "normal" government wouldn't get very far if they tried to operate in total isolation.

Thomas Walker84 said:The West just takes everything and steals it without paying a dime. Over there, those Arab Shiites have become billionaires like Croesus, building up those flashy, gaudy cities like Dubai out of thin air. Meanwhile, the common people are still struggling in extreme poverty, but of course, they blame the wicked West instead of the wealthy elite.

One really has to look past the headlines sometimes.

brightheron64 said:It is an intriguing thesis, certainly.

How else would you explain the fact that up until the 70s, the Chinese weren't even capable of building what the Germans and Britons were producing for Bismarck or Queen Victoria, yet here they are today...

Just consider this one little detail:

Nearly a quarter of all cars newly registered in China are now electric or plug-in hybrid vehicles, meaning that the country is ahead of Europe and well ahead of The US in adoption of Thes technologies. Half The world's EVs ara sold in China.

Do you honestly think the Chinese—unlike the Russians—are just importing electric vehicles? That they aren't developing their own tech and manufacturing capabilities along the way... Can you even begin to imagine what the landscape will look like in five or ten years, and who will actually be leading the world in EV production?...

And that is exactly where the catch lies. Honestly, please just view this as a bit of lamentation or a debate... rather than some attempt to take the side of the Russians. I am simply wondering if, in the long run, these sanctions might actually force Russia into a new era of industrialization, transforming them from arrogant exporters and importers into genuine technological competitors...

Of course, it's a process that takes time, but once you learn a lesson like this, you'd hope it would prompt some reflection, much like what happened with the agricultural sector...

Chinese people aren't isolated from the West, and they didn't grow solely by bleeding the West dry—there isn't a single developed nation out there that isn't tied to the West.
Everything else is just noise.

brightheron64 said:It is an intriguing thesis, certainly.

How else would you explain the fact that up until the 70s, the Chinese weren't even capable of building what the Germans and Britons were producing for Bismarck or Queen Victoria, yet here they are today...

Just consider this one little detail:

Nearly a quarter of all cars newly registered in China are now electric or plug-in hybrid vehicles, meaning that the country is ahead of Europe and well ahead of The US in adoption of Thes technologies. Half The world's EVs ara sold in China.

Do you honestly think the Chinese—unlike the Russians—are just importing electric vehicles? That they aren't developing their own tech and manufacturing capabilities along the way... Can you even begin to imagine what the landscape will look like in five or ten years, and who will actually be leading the world in EV production?...

And that is exactly where the catch lies. Honestly, please just view this as a bit of lamentation or a debate... rather than some attempt to take the side of the Russians. I am simply wondering if, in the long run, these sanctions might actually force Russia into a new era of industrialization, transforming them from arrogant exporters and importers into genuine technological competitors...

Of course, it's a process that takes time, but once you learn a lesson like this, you'd hope it would prompt some reflection, much like what happened with the agricultural sector...

What will truly impact their standing is the mass exodus of experts and intellectuals. Hundreds of thousands of people have already fled Russia to escape this forced pursuit of self-sufficiency.